PS4 development 'not that big of a change' from PS3, says Battlefield 4 dev
PSU writes:
"Battlefield 4’s multiplayer head honcho Aleksander Grondal has revealed that developing the military shooter for PlayStation 4 didn’t prove much of a difference in comparison to working on the PlayStation 3."
(Battlefield 4, Dev, PS3, PS4)
“For us, it’s not that much of a difference really. We have a scalable engine – it was already ‘next-gen ready,’ if you will, when we shipped Battlefield 3,” said Grondal."
It means that the transition goes automatic ? And not manual ? Is this why i 60 fps on 1080p is not possible ?
No. They mean that they can work on all the versions at the same time but still get the most out of each platform. The only way for BF3/BF4 to be on PS3/360 is because they could scale it down from PC. 24 players, 30FPS and not even real 720p. That is where the the scalable engine comment comes from.
^no...they have plenty of 'power'...what is obvious now though, at least through most of the release window, is that tapping the power needed to get 1080p/60hz out of what seems like most games so far...takes so much time in optimization and everything...that its not a realistic goal...THAT is what sucks...both consoles are fine power wise...
the PC market, and the way it works, completely skews multiplatform development efficiency...NO PC game is completely optimized, but listed requirements for what type of PC hardware you need for a specific game completely screws up what 'we' see as acceptable hardware...then specs for a new console show up and everyone sits around acting like they have any real idea how powerful it is, good or bad...
PC stuff is so cheap and available anymore that any particular dev can nail down crazy high resolutions and framerates almost without trying...but console hardware is much more specific...it takes a lot of clever programming and time to get everything optimized...BUT...the hardware is set, so you only need to do it once...this is exactly why a lot of launch games fall well below what future releases run like...but whatever, i'm still disappointed that next gen doesn't start with the standards we were pretty much promised in 2006...
Multi-plat developers use middleware(the "engine" they talk about here) that transfers the same work to different platforms (plus some tweeks of course)
So the result can only be as good as how good the middleware was made, think of it as a "google translator" for different languages.
That is why PS3 multi-plats suffered at first because of the middle ware they use. Even now if a developer don't update their middle ware you will see the same bad results as early PS3 ports. "The Cell" was a completely different language and even the middleware makers didn't really know how to speak it at first.
But PS4 is a different case now. It's the easiest language to speak. But to the developers that uses these middlewares, the easiest way to explain would be that they are just putting the stuff they write into a "translator" sorta speak so the process would be the same.
All it means is they scale the engine to the capabilities of the console. It's project management speak, if you don't know anything about business or development, you won't understand the statement. It doesn't mean they're the same console, it means the project management aspects are the same, you take your engine and scale to a console.
It is misleading and it isn't. It just needs more context. He is saying there is nothing different about working on BF4 for PS4 because the engine can scale across all sorts of different hardware.
then you'd see that Dice has invested a lot into the PS3 and how their render technology is based on jobs, deferred renderer, etc.
I am not surprised Dice is continuing that road. Like I said before, developers who understood the PS3 in the past will have an easier live with new gen consoles.
Also, transition from a previous Sony API to a new one is probably easier for them then using DirectX code base.
And yet, because of that, I'd have expected more from BF4...I hope it will materialize eventually. Dice is absolutely pushing the envelope on PS3. I'd have expected the same on PS4.
Me neither. But DICE has really smart engine developers who were one of the few studios who didn't whine about the intricacies of the ps3 but capitalized on them.
all i know is the gamescom ps4 video for BF4 with only 16 players...looked pretty bad...and honestly not a whole hell of a lot better than the PS3 version of Bf3...just nice and smooth...that was the only difference i could really see...
however...i played over 50 hours of the ps3 bf3 beta back in 2011...which released just a month before the full game...and the difference in fidelity between the beta and finished product was literally night and day...there were entire layers of renderer missing from the beta version...
so i very much do trust Dice with this stuff...only this time i'm in a very different position...I finally have a PC 'ready' for it, just waiting to see on these upcoming AMD gpu deals (certain cards ship with a full game code)...and since bf4 is really the only 'next gen' title i'm interested in for the time being...its pretty realistic i'll be waiting for a Ps4 well in to 2014...
Check this really interesting 'lecture' from Mark Cerny. He explains how eventhough ps4 is more powerful it's easy to develop for just as much as the PS1 was... Really interesting to watch. http://www.youtube.com/watc...
Glad Killzone us at 60fps. Once again, 1st parties getting the most out of the console...obviously easier since they are fully dedicated to one platform.
Well the reason is because DICE is a third party developer.. (therefore they are just trying to get there game to run on both platforms) Nex gen consoles are basically like coding for PC's now, so the engine just dumbs down the PC version.
So while a 1st party developer will more then likely push the system -because there, the game will only be on PS4 - so when they put a nice trick to get a better shadier or more texture they don't have to worry about that won't run on the Xboxone.
So BF4 on PS4 will just be the Xboxone version, it won't be better on PS4 like AC4 because the developer has done a deal with Microsoft, which get's them DLC first and ensures the Xboxone is the lead version.
Why because you don't like to hear someone tell the truth so you can keep believing you're buying something innovative? Yeah whatever makes you sleep at night.
So basically they said they are used to developing for different platforms at the same time. Talk about taking things out of context. Some of these headlines are appalling, they can put a spin on anything to get more clicks.
Actually, some developers prefer the PS3 because you can do "compute" prototyping in C++ and then backport this to shaders.
Traditionally you do things on the CPU first and then try to port whatever you can to some "vector" units (shaders). SPUs give you an intermediate step by moving plain C/C++ code to a vector unit before you throw what's needed at shaders.
I don't know why you are getting so many disagrees.
A lot Playstation fans have been admitting lately that the PS3 was harder to work on and they have been pointing out how much better things are going to be now that the PS4 is much easier to work with.
You are saying the same thing, but they are disagreeing. Why?
Well, maybe people disagree with the fact that the 360 is not really easier to work with than the PS3 - not if you want to reach the same result.
You might get quicker results on the 360, but lately almost all games (incl. 3rd party) beat the 360 in performance - latest example Splinter Cell. Not by much and mostly negligible, but there none the less. In fact, the 360 games benefited the most when developers spent time optimizing for the PS3.
How many people will actually read what the man said...
Speaking with the latest issue of OPM UK, Grondal said that the transition to PS4 ran smoothly, thanks to DICE's scalable, ‘next-gen ready’ engine.
“For us, it’s not that much of a difference really. We have a scalable engine – it was already ‘next-gen ready,’ if you will, when we shipped Battlefield 3,” said Grondal.
“We do parallel development for all platforms, so, for us, [moving on to PS4] is not really that big of a change.’
The title insinuates it was as difficult as the PS3...when he clearly didn't mention the architecture, only that his team was ready for next gen.
first there is the problem with developing on almost every platform possible, which takes time and resources away to be able to fully concentrate on one specifically and to optimize to it's full potential. Then as a BF3 hardcore player i know, that Dice isn't so good with programming, since BF3 net code wasn't so good (behind cover lag kills) and they had problems to fix even the easiest bugs, and they even created more critical bugs on the way updating the game... (remember the non functioning flares on jets? had to wait like a month till they fix that one...). Thx to this experience i won't support such developer anymore. And seeing BF4 gameplay, it seems just like an addon to BF3, so they will probably go the COD way. :/
misleading title... the dev does not compare learning the ps4 vs learning the ps3... it only explains that it was easy to plug the ps4 into their engine with little to no learning curve...
however... i assume that, over time, they'll have to continue tweaking their engine to take use of ps4s custom architecture. As long as PS4 exclusives like Killzone look better, they'll always have work to do.
They already had a highly scalable engine with Frostbite 3. So in terms of porting its not that hard for them. They didn't mention ease of development though which also speaks highly to how un-optimized this engine must be for PS4.
How is BF4 optimized for next-gen consoles? Is it just a straight-forward port from PC?
Incorrect, its all the consoles. Its no different from Cellphones, tv's, Laptops, Computers, Ipads etc. The PS4 and the XB One just add's new features, and plays better software. That's it. An upgraded PS3/360. If you infer anything else, then i'd almost have to call you delusional. At least give me a cogent argument.
Isn't that bad considering how hard it was to make games for the ps3, it was it's infamous problem and why games looked better for the most part on the 360. The only truly stunning game for ps3 is TLOU, but we only had to wait 7-8 years before someone figured out how to properly use the damn console.
The engine is designed to work on all platforms, and with PS4 being a PC'ish platform now, it only makes sense that development is similar to PS3, because the engine does the work porting to different platforms when they add something to the game i take it?
I think a lot of people are misinterpreting this. He's stating that from the game developers perspective it's no different as the engine is scalable so there was not much difference for them. The way they got it setup the main difference falls onto the shoulders of the engine programmers which are only a few people within the team that are not as deep in the thick of it as say a level designer or 3d prop modeler
Most people i see are taking this as the PS4 being just as difficult and as much of a mess to develop for as the PS3's cell architecture, that's not what he's referring to at all
cerny and people at sony asked developers what they wanted on the ps4 so if they didnt open there mouth about something till now and complain about it then just shut up but i agree with theWB27.
all games are made on pc, then simply scaled to whatever console they are going to
for ps3/360 they turn EVERYTHING to lowest possible settings, gimp resolution to 704p, and turn off many effects
for ps4/xbox1 they set everything to high-medium, and set the resolution to something like 860p
for pc, it can do anything from 600p lowest settings 720p medium 1080p high 1440 and very high all the way up to (if your pc is great) 1600p ultra settings
Lots of code that on PS3 runs on the SPUs will run on the PS4 GPU. You could notice this trend already in PCs as there are reviews (from SP) claiming that CPU hardly matters.
With these optimizations CPU matters most when you run multi player as it handles network protocols.
This is why Battlefield can keep so much of its graphical fidelity (including physics) in multi player.
When you are comparing games and engines, compare - single player with single player - multi player with multi player
Do also specify what's your highest score take a look at the related image - how would you rate it as graphics in a game? - is it real or computer rendered?
Of coarse it wouldn't be yet. Devs are still using the techniques of the last gen. They have to get acclimated to these new systems. They know they are more powerful but they don't know all the freedoms that gives them.
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It means that the transition goes automatic ? And not manual ? Is this why i 60 fps on 1080p is not possible ?
Damn EA!
the PC market, and the way it works, completely skews multiplatform development efficiency...NO PC game is completely optimized, but listed requirements for what type of PC hardware you need for a specific game completely screws up what 'we' see as acceptable hardware...then specs for a new console show up and everyone sits around acting like they have any real idea how powerful it is, good or bad...
PC stuff is so cheap and available anymore that any particular dev can nail down crazy high resolutions and framerates almost without trying...but console hardware is much more specific...it takes a lot of clever programming and time to get everything optimized...BUT...the hardware is set, so you only need to do it once...this is exactly why a lot of launch games fall well below what future releases run like...but whatever, i'm still disappointed that next gen doesn't start with the standards we were pretty much promised in 2006...
So the result can only be as good as how good the middleware was made, think of it as a "google translator" for different languages.
That is why PS3 multi-plats suffered at first because of the middle ware they use. Even now if a developer don't update their middle ware you will see the same bad results as early PS3 ports. "The Cell" was a completely different language and even the middleware makers didn't really know how to speak it at first.
But PS4 is a different case now. It's the easiest language to speak. But to the developers that uses these middlewares, the easiest way to explain would be that they are just putting the stuff they write into a "translator" sorta speak so the process would be the same.
They can shove their game in their ars.
Gaijin" "PS4 is so powerful, and the architecture is similar to PC, so it’s much easier to maintain simultaneous updates."
A small russian studio says ps4 is similar to PC and yet so called big dev like dice say PS4 is like PS3? lol what a amateur studio.
http://www.vg247.com/2013/0...
"We do parallel development for all platforms, so, for us, [moving on to PS4] is not really that big of a change."
So they aren't really moving from ps3 to ps4.. They are moving from pc to ps4..
Just saying... imagining the cell isnt much different then x86 would make alot of statements ovrr the years suspect.. Lol
then you'd see that Dice has invested a lot into the PS3 and how their render technology is based on jobs, deferred renderer, etc.
I am not surprised Dice is continuing that road. Like I said before, developers who understood the PS3 in the past will have an easier live with new gen consoles.
Also, transition from a previous Sony API to a new one is probably easier for them then using DirectX code base.
And yet, because of that, I'd have expected more from BF4...I hope it will materialize eventually. Dice is absolutely pushing the envelope on PS3. I'd have expected the same on PS4.
however...i played over 50 hours of the ps3 bf3 beta back in 2011...which released just a month before the full game...and the difference in fidelity between the beta and finished product was literally night and day...there were entire layers of renderer missing from the beta version...
so i very much do trust Dice with this stuff...only this time i'm in a very different position...I finally have a PC 'ready' for it, just waiting to see on these upcoming AMD gpu deals (certain cards ship with a full game code)...and since bf4 is really the only 'next gen' title i'm interested in for the time being...its pretty realistic i'll be waiting for a Ps4 well in to 2014...
http://www.youtube.com/watc...
get your daily Cerny fix here!
He's basically saying:
"We have an easily-scaled game engine, so it was easy to scale down to PS4 just like it was easy to scale down to PS3"
He's not really saying anything about the similarities of the two systems' architectures.
Once again, 1st parties getting the most out of the console...obviously easier since they are fully dedicated to one platform.
That's just good enough which ever way you slice it
well, we know it can be done..so hopefully that pushes devs to not be so lazy and accept the minimum.
Well the reason is because DICE is a third party developer.. (therefore they are just trying to get there game to run on both platforms) Nex gen consoles are basically like coding for PC's now, so the engine just dumbs down the PC version.
So while a 1st party developer will more then likely push the system -because there, the game will only be on PS4 - so when they put a nice trick to get a better shadier or more texture they don't have to worry about that won't run on the Xboxone.
So BF4 on PS4 will just be the Xboxone version, it won't be better on PS4 like AC4 because the developer has done a deal with Microsoft, which get's them DLC first and ensures the Xboxone is the lead version.
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We have our answer.
Some of these headlines are appalling, they can put a spin on anything to get more clicks.
Traditionally you do things on the CPU first and then try to port whatever you can to some "vector" units (shaders). SPUs give you an intermediate step by moving plain C/C++ code to a vector unit before you throw what's needed at shaders.
I don't know why you are getting so many disagrees.
A lot Playstation fans have been admitting lately that the PS3 was harder to work on and they have been pointing out how much better things are going to be now that the PS4 is much easier to work with.
You are saying the same thing, but they are disagreeing. Why?
You might get quicker results on the 360, but lately almost all games (incl. 3rd party) beat the 360 in performance - latest example Splinter Cell. Not by much and mostly negligible, but there none the less. In fact, the 360 games benefited the most when developers spent time optimizing for the PS3.
* when ps fanboys troll xbox articles is ok, huh?
No it's not okay for PS Fans to troll Xbox fans. I hate every type of trolls or fanboys.
And because you don't own a PS3 or PS4, IT DOES MEAN YOU DON'T HAVE THE FACTS TO COMPARE THEM.
What you have are false facts. The PS4 is stronger than the XBox One in Power.
Speaking with the latest issue of OPM UK, Grondal said that the transition to PS4 ran smoothly, thanks to DICE's scalable, ‘next-gen ready’ engine.
“For us, it’s not that much of a difference really. We have a scalable engine – it was already ‘next-gen ready,’ if you will, when we shipped Battlefield 3,” said Grondal.
“We do parallel development for all platforms, so, for us, [moving on to PS4] is not really that big of a change.’
The title insinuates it was as difficult as the PS3...when he clearly didn't mention the architecture, only that his team was ready for next gen.
Even in context after reading the article.. I still feel the title is poorly worded
however... i assume that, over time, they'll have to continue tweaking their engine to take use of ps4s custom architecture. As long as PS4 exclusives like Killzone look better, they'll always have work to do.
How is BF4 optimized for next-gen consoles? Is it just a straight-forward port from PC?
Both consoles is just an upgrade. That's the point of making a new console.
Most people i see are taking this as the PS4 being just as difficult and as much of a mess to develop for as the PS3's cell architecture, that's not what he's referring to at all
for ps3/360 they turn EVERYTHING to lowest possible settings, gimp resolution to 704p, and turn off many effects
for ps4/xbox1 they set everything to high-medium, and set the resolution to something like 860p
for pc, it can do anything from 600p lowest settings
720p medium
1080p high
1440 and very high
all the way up to (if your pc is great) 1600p ultra settings
this is how all games are made
The SPUs of PS3 have moved onto the GPU of PS4.
Lots of code that on PS3 runs on the SPUs will run on the PS4 GPU. You could notice this trend already in PCs as there are reviews (from SP) claiming that CPU hardly matters.
With these optimizations CPU matters most when you run multi player as it handles network protocols.
This is why Battlefield can keep so much of its graphical fidelity (including physics) in multi player.
When you are comparing games and engines, compare
- single player with single player
- multi player with multi player
Do also specify what's your highest score
take a look at the related image
- how would you rate it as graphics in a game?
- is it real or computer rendered?
Related image(s)