Gamespot: Corporate vice president Phil Harrison says Xbox One and Kinect are not separate systems, no plans to release console without the motion- and voice-control technology.
And yet another reason why I'm not buying it. Plus, I could feel the cocky attitude already resurfacing.
"Microsoft: "Xbox One is Kinect"" It doesn't have to be, but they are really betting the farm here trying to make it this way
That's great that they want to believe in it and all, but if that's the case, why even give it such an awful name like Xbox One? And if it IS Kinect, why change its need to be plugged in? I know they've gotten backlash for it, but how are you going to sit there and say that those two products go hand in hand when I can basically throw the camera in the trash and still use the One now? What kind of twisted, complex message is that?
A lot do not want Kinect, I don't see why they are forcing it in the console bundle and not having a seperate system cheaper. Why can't i just but the console with a pad and a game, chill on the sofa and blast friends in the face?
@tony it may seem twisted but they are doing the same thing sony is doing. Meaning that saying the system 'doesnt' have to do this or that appeases to a certain crowd. in reality though, they emphasize on the benefits of it doing this or that because its what they 'hope' the majority will do. an example would be sony saying you dont need to be online to play games. Very simple and basic and well received BUT they want you to be online playing games. they talked more about all the fun that being online gave you with social interaction and video sharing and what-not. That too could be construed as a twisted message but the rational thinkers know it was marketing spin because who in their right mind is going to buy a next gen internet ready device to have it literally sit offline? the ps3 was reported to be the most internet connected device. do you really think sony would want to 180 themselves on that feat? They are COUNTING on people buying the ps4 and getting online with it. And yes i know the difference between always online and online when it is required. this is about online in "general". so with Ms, now saying you dont need kinect connected is trying to appease those who were concerned. but all the benefits of the system point to having kinect connected. All the ui features and social interactions and the games that have subtle kinect features. Both companies say one thing but they really are pushing for the other. it is typical marketing spin. nothing more nothing less. i for one will have my ps4 online AND i will have my kinect connected because i know that is the original vision for both platforms.
"Xbox One is Kinect" ... is what's literally all they have left of their so called "vision" of the future... Well maybe TV too. : /
I'm not going to criticize the kinect until I use it. It may seem like an unnecessary addition until you use it. Maybe not though, I'm probably going to spend $500, and regret the whole thing. I'd never know unless I tried it though.
Another statement for them to do another 180 on further down the line. The people at Microsoft are clowns.
@darthv72: The problem with your reasoning is that where Sony made allowances for offline, they realized from the very beginning that 24/7 access would be impossible for some. So while they promote all of the benefits of online, they have accounted for offline. Something which MS didn't even consider when they first announced their system, and a factor which still remains despite all of the changes they've made. As for Kinect proving itself, it hasn't. It was forced on XB1 in attempt to get devs to make games for and prove it, but Kinect itself hasn't shown any real benefits past what could have been done with a headset mic.
i dont understand peoples reasoning in seeing this as a bad thing. people tend to be so close minded. the reason that kinect has become a definitive part of the system is to encourage developers to take advantage of the technology now that there is the incentive to do so with the entire xbox one market poised to take advantage. the reason they took away the demand for it to be plugged in is merely for privacy issues. cynical individuals tend o be paranoid and being able to unplug it when you so desire douses that fear. the kinect program for xbox one is microsoft taking a full measure into an attempt at true innovation at the hardware level ala iPhone to iPad, or 2d to 3d, black and white to color. im not claiming to know the future here or putting the kinect on a pedestal but rather than bash some new technology for simply being in its state of infancy i'd rather give it the best chance to blossom. not all ideas are great, not all of them work but how will we ever know if we don't see them through? for what its worth i believe that we are on the cusp of something truly innovative and we've yet to see what this technology can truly bring. its not gonna happen for launch, its too brand new as an integrated accessory. but now that developers can count on every xbox one having a kinect at its disposal, i bet we're going to begin to see some really unique experiences in gaming in the coming years. all this coming from someone who is gonna be a day one owner ps4 and xbox one. why be a sony fanboy or an xbox fanboy when you can be an adult about it and enjoy both amazing systems in all their glory.
"Xbox One is Kinect" ^^^If a company told me that and I hated Kinect I would stop following what they are doing and just not buy a X1 because obviously their vision is at odds with my preferences. Thats what normal folks who use logic do. You see but the same haters STILL follow Kinects every move because they are worried Kinect just might be a huge factor in making X1 successful and guess what their console of choice does NOT have kinect, what it has is a peripheral camera that cant match kinects tech even if it were included but its not so THEY KNOW its going to be treated like a every other console peripheral before it=half hearted gimmicky support, so love kinect or hate it because its not the best thing since slice bread but no one can say they are not trying to do things differently while still giving us great traditional core experiences. Make no mistake for the haters who spend much of their time downplaying kinect this isn't about them not wanting an X1 because of kinect, this IS about them not wanting X1 owners to enjoy the benefits/options we will get because of microsofts commitment to kinect. ENVY is a cruel emotion.
Good. It'll keep the box priced high and give Sony the edge.
@Jokesonyou Totally not true bro, I 100% don't hate or envy your xbone kinect at all, matter of fact I hope you get your moneys worth and enjoy the shit out of Kinect! so wave, yell, scream, poke, pause and even clap the hell out of the thing man! yeah! ;-)
$100 dollar price difference.... For that price difference this is what you get! 1. A console that recognizes you & your controller and anyone else who plays with you on your console 2. A console that you can connect your cable tv to and you can seamlessly switch between tv, to game, to Skype, all with your voice. That includes changing channels, receiving game invites while watching tv or a movie and instantly snapping to them....with your voice. 3. A console that can scan a 3d model of yourself into any game that chooses to use that feature. 4. A console that can read your heart rate and facial expressions while playing a game. 5. A console that can use full body motion control, hand gesture motion, controller movement tracking, finger tracking, to any game that chooses to use any or all of those features. 6. A console that can Skype with anyone wether it be with a phone, computer, etc...OH and in 1080p. 7. A console that have any game use voice commands...example playing an rpg and instead of clicking on multiple choices on how to reply but you can actually just say what you want, or like the last elder scrolls game had...when you want to equip a weapon, you simple say equip sword & shield...or equip fire spell...etc...That was commands that worked last gen...I can only imagine how voice commands could work with next gen games. These are features that separate the xbox one from the ps4 OUT THE BOX. These are features that developers can use knowing that every console purchased has a Kinnect. These are features that are well worth 100 dollar difference. And for gamers who want a box with ONLY UPDATED GRAPHICS....Sony has created the ps4 with you in mind. Only problem is you will be missing out on not only next gen graphics, but the full next gen immersive experience. Oh and a few blockbuster games like: Halo Gears of War TitanFall Dead Rising Ryse Forza And the list goes on! Sony is a company that couldn't afford to take risks with their ps4. They had to play it safe. They have been losing money and when your desperate...you stick with the status quo... I'm not saying that's bad...its good for gamers because they get a cheaper system that is basically the ps3.5. Or the IndieStation 4. Microsoft is mega rich, they can afford to take risks and push the limits of the tech and gaming industry... Personally, I'm glad they are doing it. I'm excited about the xbox one and all the EXTRA stuff it does on top of having 10x better graphics than the xbox 360. I was happy with the graphics on the 360, from the reactions to gamers who have played TitanFall & other xbox one games, graphics and fun new gameplay will be on the xbox one. People who say people don't want kinnect....that's your opinion. This is what I know, people want the xbox one, thus the reason it has already broke the xbox 360 launch records and we are a couple months from launch... Whether the ps4 is selling more is completely irrelevant. As long as the xbox is selling well, hardcore gamers win with true next gen tech. The graphics game will always be won by super computers....but real gamers understand that it takes more than having a little bit better graphics to make a great game....Gameplay & next gen experiences make a great game as well. "Little" differences mean very little when it comes to which console will have the best next gen experiences. X Xbox one not only separated itself from the ps4, but also high end computers. KINNECT
@elitegamer24 u know if u had not said indie station 4 u would have sold me on Xbox. I was like dang this guy is right and ur still right about all those pluses but then ur attitude just turned me off. U could have said everything u said about Xbox without being negative about ps4. Just sayin
If MS listened and removed Kinect, the Xbox One would just be a barely upgraded Xbox 360 with a little more pixels on screen i.e. it would be a PS4. If that is all I wanted, then I would get a PC. It's graphics is superior NOW to whatever Xbox One or PS4 can dish out in three months!
@Elite24Gamer everything you just named only matters out of the box, seeing as the ps4 eye can do every single thing you named. the only exceptions are 2 & 5. you pretty much say sony had to play it safe because they're broke? no. they just know not everyone is going to want those features, and thus, made the camera completely optional. also, you say "for $100" yet you mention skype features which are locked behind xblg, so really it's $150 difference. and the tv integration features, which require an extra peripheral to use. so it's not $100, you HAVE to factor those things in. not to mention, MS say themselves that "some OneGuide features" will require xblg as well. you're totally wrong in this regard. as for "indiestation 4", don't be so arrogant as to think indies don't matter. indies are the reason i'm choosing ps4 over xbox one, and i'm sure plenty of other people can say the same. let's not forget one of the biggest AAA studios (ND) started as an indie dev. even activision started as an indie dev, you know, the company responsible for the selling of the biggest franchise in gaming right now? i love when people try to sh*t on indies, when half of the games they love to play wouldn't exist if it weren't for them. people love to believe the xbox one has tons of advantages over ps4, but in reality, that's just not accurate. for $100 more, all you're getting is a camera that, at launch, you can't use for much until you pay an extra $50. if you're willing to pay $100-$150 more for voice commands and control over your tv, more power to you. buy what pleases you. just don't try to make it seem like for $100 more you're getting phenomenal features that set your console of choice way above the competition when in reality, you're paying at least $150 to get said features, and even then, it's only 2-3 features you're actually receiving that the competition doesn't have. note: i'm talking in general here. for $100 less, you get: 1) a console that actually let's you be social with your friends without paying for a subscription service. this includes ps4's social features, as well as skype. 2) a console that actually let's you record footage of YOUR games, using the console that YOU bought without paying for a subscription service. 3) a plethora of f2p games that don't require a subscription service to play. 4) a console that let's you access tons of media options without the need to pay for a subscription service. 5) a console that let's you upgrade your HDD to have more space for game installs and content. (let's just say a console that offers more options overall) 6) a console that you can actually buy at launch if you're in a specific country. 7) a console with more raw power and a more innovative controller. this greatly increases potential. especially the controller. (this is a bragging point of kinect) 8) in its first year, a console with 20 exclusives vs 15 for xbox one. (who knows how much exclusive content for multiplats?) 9[theoretical]) a console with a larger community. sure, you can say that we don't know yet because neither console has sold yet, but. let's do some thinking here. it's widely rumored/believed the ps4 is out-selling the xbox one in pre-orders, plus it's released in far more countries. chances are, the community will be larger at launch.
Xbox One is Kinect...until April.
the question is why though why force a peripheral on people who don't want it
It's the MSMF! (MicroSoft Marketing Force) "true innovation" "black and white to color" "cusp of something truly innovative" "unique experiences in gaming" "full next gen immersive experience" "push the limits of the tech and gaming industry" "hardcore gamers win with true next gen tech" "real gamers understand" "best next gen experiences" I feel like I should be reading this on PRWeb.com @Voodoo: "cynical individuals tend o be paranoid" "Cynical, paranoid" individuals like David Petraeus. "Spies will no longer have to plant bugs in your home - the rise of 'connected' gadgets controlled by apps will mean that people 'bug' their own homes, says CIA director David Petraeus." http://www.dailymail.co.uk/... NSA Admits: Okay, Okay, There Have Been A Bunch Of Intentional Abuses, Including Spying On Love Interests https://www.techdirt.com/ar... Don't be a shmuck. @JOY: "Thats what normal folks who use logic do." It's so cute how people on the interwebs throw around the word "logic" as if it's some kind of trump, regardless of its applicability or lack thereof. What if someone wants to play the flagship Xbox exclusives, but doesn't want to pay $100 (or more, considering some rumors) for a Kinect? What's your "logical" solution to that query? Oh right... #DealWithIt "blah blah blah haters are scared blah blah" Mm-kay guy. @Elite: 1: That's a negative for me. 2: I barely watch TV and I don't like talking to electronics. 3: It remains to be seen how accurate a model can be generated. Rivals makes a relatively loose cartoon representation. I do think mocap for taunts or victory dances etc could be an amusing application, but I haven't seen anything from a technical standpoint that indicates the PS4 cam couldn't do the same. 4: Have no interest. In fact, I consider it a negative. 5: Again, the PS4 cam can do most of that. What's ironic is that by trying to get devs to implement Kinect features to justify the sensor, I don't see why the devs wouldn't also just port over any of those features that could also be accomplished with the PS4 cam, or supplement them with the DS4 touchpad. And people are underestimating the touchpad... it's essentially adding the equivalent of a dozen more buttons to the controller. 6: Nice, if you use Skype. Vita has Skype... maybe PS4 will get it, maybe not. I don't use Skype, so I don't really care. 7: And why exactly can't the PS4 cam (or any other microphone, for that matter), do voice commands again? And I'm curious... was the SNES just a NES 1.5? Get off this "PS3 with better graphics" garbage already. There have been upgrades in pretty much every aspect of the console, including their own camera (can the monoscopic Kinect take 3D pics and video? The stereoscopic PS4 cam can). A fancy camera (sorry... "sensor") is hardly the be all end all definition of "next gen."
I wonder how much I can trade it in for at Gamestop on Day One? Will it even work on a different system or is it locked??
You have no intention of buying it so why even ask?
Probably not for much, considering it's a packin with all consoles. Most likely you'll get more for it when the inevitable Kinect-less bundle appears down the line.
I doubt Gamestop will buy it since anyone who wants one will have it already.
Gamestop may not even buy it from you considering EVERY XBOX ONE will have it and most won't need to buy a replacement.
@ replies to THamm above... We'll see how much extra the Kinect 2.0 adds as it'll have to be sold as a replacement part at some point, unless it comes with a 10 year new-for-old guarantee.
They should offer like a $10 or $20 credit to take the Kinnect out of the box, and just sell them to a tech recycler for parts. I bet people would bite.
I understand not wanting to be forced to buy something but I can't understand why somebody wouldn't want to be able to talk to their game system and have it recognize faces. Think of how difficult it is to message ppl, get a party together or just plain navigate through your digital games now. I personally hate the fact that I have 3 remotes on my nightstand for Xbox, TV and cablebox. "Xbox on" -> "Xbox watch Comedy Central"-> "Xbox play halo" sounds much better to me than the crap I have to go through now. I know it's like the "in" thing to hate on kinect but the fact is whether you realize it or not, you and everybody else on this forum will be using something like the kinect to control your living room in the next ten years. It's just a better way to find things, navigate your systems, get friends together and communicate while maximizing game time and ease of use. Or you can keep dealing with that deal it xbox guide, ps3 guide and typing text messages during a game and getting yourself killed 4 times because it takes 30 mins
Could someone care to explain who made the Kinect? Where does it come from? Also why people Do Not trust it nor MS? You will find your answer, MS signed a deal that it cannot back out of, that's why they won't remove it, that's why they are jumping ship and bailing out ASAP. I am going to buy it since they made Kinect not mandatory. Pubs may still force you to plug in to play games though, so that may be the hook
you do realize you can do voice commands without the need for a $100 camera, right? microsoft just loves to force their tech on people. cough, windows 8, cough. as for facial recognition, any camera can do it, and any hd camera can do it really well. you have 2 remotes for tv and cable? uh. you don't know how to program a remote for both?
If XB1 "is Kinect", then what are the 80% of people who won't use it actually playing their games on ?
Please tell me how Sony hasn't been cocky lately?
Sony have been going about and doing their business. Sure, they have little jabs here and there, but both companies do it. Cocky Sony was 2005/2006 Sony. It's certainly not the same Sony who are launching the PS4.
Cocky? i think you mean Confident.
@psvita tamayto tamahtoe. Phonetics don't work we'll on the internet
I don't know. One thing is very clear with Xbox One and Kinect and this is a good thing. They got rid of the stupid proud "You Are the Controller" crap. A slogan that after a year of Kinect on the market they refused to accept as being a terrible venture. In that Dev diary of Kinect or the Kinect sports game on Xbone or something, the person in the video is using Kinect BUT has the controller in their hand too. I guess Richard Marks of Sony was always right then http://www.eurogamer.net/ar... As proven by absolute garbage like this, released a year later http://www.youtube.com/watc... THIS is how Kinect will shine. PUT some control into the users hands too and it will go a long way.
I'm not too worried about this kinect stuff, I'm sure they will change their minds about selling them separate once sales get trounced by the ps4. I give them a few months before the next 180.
Xbox 1 is kinnect? So basically Xbox 1 is a useless piece of hardware that actually hampers my gaming experience as opposed to enhancing it... no bueno
ps4 is king.
XB-1 is GOD
Kratos eat god for breakfast
actually Kratos dethrones, dismembers, and slaughters gods. He eats Wheaties for breakfast
Kinect is Xbox One
Microsoft sure are walking the tightrope between confidence and arrogance.
You feel a cocky attitude resurfacing from Microsoft? Sony attacked Microsoft at E3 for 10 minutes during their conference, and then Sony took more jabs at Microsoft during Gamescom. Andrew House referenced Microsoft's messaging again: "While others have shifted their message and changed their story, we were consistent in maintaining a message that is fair and in tune with consumer desires." On the other hand, Microsoft's Phill Spencer responded to Sony's jibes, saying "Other people will do and say what they're going to say. Fine. We're running our program. That's a strength of who we are." Spencer also said he loves the competition. Lastly, it's ok to prefer one console over the other. But it's clear that Sony is cocky, not Microsoft.
"running their program" ? And what "program" would that be? The one they originally touted as their bold vision for a glorified DRM-laden cable box? Or their new "program" that consists of back-peddling and reversing all of their plans to essential match what Sony's doing because the One was getting trounced by customers and press alike? Yeah, way to stick to that program Microsoft.
Ah, good 'ol Phil "rumble is last gen" Harrison, shilling for his new corporate overlords again I see. This guy has always struck me as kind of a cocky d-bag.
Yeah Microsoft... SONY is completely owning you in sales right now, more than 2 : 1... keep your kinect, and sony will keep dominating. A preferal is a preferal!
And that's the US... lol Imagine Europe, where they're releasing in less countries than Sony, or freakin Japan. LOL! Rest of the world is pretty much PS land as well...
School is school
im arab, my native language is not english, i try :)
The key words in your post are "right now." Nobody knows what the future holds, and for the sake of all the Sony fans, I really hope Xbox doesn't gain momentum and/or take the lead, because all their arrogance, snide comments, and over-confident rhetoric will bite them in the ass. Xbox fans will have a field day with them, with a verbal equivalent of being raped in the ass with a radioactive chainsaw.
It's not a sprint; it's a marathon. Lets check the numbers 2-3 years from now. I believe once developers have had time to fully incorporate kinect 2.0 into hardcore games, gamers will definitely hop on board. From an innovative and features prospective, once casual consumers hear about the enhanced capabilities of kinect 2.0, they'll also buy XB1.
I'll probably get an insane number of disagrees for saying this, but I'm definitely glad ms are sticking with their kinect inclusion policy for every xbox one. The fact that every xbox one owner will have one gives that much more incentive for developers to actually make good use of the kinect with their games. And it really does feel like a natural extension to the xbox one. If we want to make some commentaries with xbox one videos with upload studio, we'll already have a 1080p camera to do just that (to capture a video of the commentator in a separate video box on the same video). If we want to skype, we'll have kinect already there to do that over xbox one. If I want to instantly search via voice commands through kinect, we'll already have kinect to do that. And I'm sure there are a ton more features that utilize kinect to make the xbox one experience feel a little more whole and fluid. But that's my bit on kinect. Let the disagrees flow in.
Just because people have Kinect doesn't mean all devs will use it. If they want to make a new IP which is built from the ground up with Kinect in mind then fair enough but I hope to god they don't force it into franchises that don't need motion controls. Thing is though as people have said there will be a Kinect-less SKU next year so I hope developers will be able to put controller controls for those who play on a standard game that has Kinect features for those who buy a Kinect-less SKU. I hope they are prepared.
In my original statement, I iterated that the inclusion of kinect would not be exclusively beneficial towards additional features in games, but in other aspects of the console as well. And I never said that all developers would use the kinect to pump additional features into their games. I stated that there would be more incentive for the developers to realize the kinect in their games.
to your first point you are correct. just because its there is not an automatic inclusion of support for every game made for the platform. BUT...if the games made do use it and those same 3rd party devs release their game on the PS4 and due to the lack of included camera on the PS4 the XB1 version sells more it could actually get sony to reconsider their decision in making the PS4eye an option. you have to really think about it, the DS4 was made for the camera to utilize right out of the box. the UI and other features like the social interaction sony has been talking up as well were designed to function better with the camera. But they are treating it like an after thought. I really believe it was their original vision to include the camera but making it an option obviously is a way to keep the cost down on the initial system. I still think its a bad move and one that we will just have to wait and see. For the last two consoles they treated their camera as a 2nd class accessory where this time they really could have made it a 1st class one by having every ps4 sold include one in the box. That right there makes the total PS4 package. Here is a thought, why not release controllers without the light bar on them? The light bar is now pointless without the camera. unless sony was originally going to include the camera to begin with.
.... Some people just dont get it. Ps4 and vita together can accomplush the Wii U's purpose. Will any dwv ever do it? No. What mad man would rusk making a game that requires two separate systems to play? Whereas Wii U devsWILL used the dual screen. Same with kinect. Every X1 iser has one so more devs are willing to risk it.
It isn't so much about all devs using it, as is is about all users having access to all the same features. Say MS introduces a Kinect-less bundle - think of all the features on the console that you can't use, or features others may want to interact with you with, but they can't because you don't have a kinect. Keeping the kinect and X1 bundled makes for a more "equal" community. There's no guess work of "does bob have a kinect?" Many people are thinking of the kinect as just a motion sensor camera or voice command "toy." They are using what they know from the present/past kinect and how it interacted with the 360 as a reference point, and this isn't a fair comparison. he original Kinect was released many years after the 360. It was, for all intent and purposes, a completely optional peripheral that really didn't add anything truly unique to the 360. The Xbox One however, was designed around Kinect functionality, for more than just dance and exercise games. The new Kinect was never looked at as merely a peripheral, like the PS eye, but as an extension of the system. I'm sure many of you are shaking your heads refusing to believe the Kinect is anything more than a gimmick, but I'm telling you, after the X1 launches and people start messing around with it and seein what the Kinect can do and eventually use it for themselves, there's gonna be a bunch of people, skeptics and non, who will say to themselves, "wow, they really do work well together."
@darthv72 I'm pretty sure Sony originally intended the camera to be standard equipment with every PS4, but made it optional to hit the (now very important) $399 price point. If you go back and watch the PS4 design team videos they talk about how the camera will pick up the DS4 light bar and determine which player is sitting where, etc. They never qualify these statements with "if you also have the PS4 camera..." Their statements are all worded to presume that the camera would be there by default.
The exact reason why I don't want Kinect and PS-eye. http://youtu.be/9WmdvT-8m9g... Sony is smart enough to treat PS eye as a secondary peripheral. MS is betting their underpants on POS Kinect, good for "Just Dance"
Kinect isn't about motion games. It's about giving Xbox the smoothest user interface ever. I just say what I want for TV, games or Internet and I get it. No fumbling for remotes, no taking 10 mins to type a message, no signing everyone in and making sure that everyone is holding the right controller, assigned to the correct part of split screen. No more giving up on waiting for friends to join your lobby because it takes too long. No more looking through every part of your system to find a particular game or product on th market place. No more choosing between games and TV, just snap them both at once and play during commercials.....but yea....it can just do "let's dance" Grow up you barbarians. Humans make me sick the way they fight advancements and celebrate lack of change. Peons...
@TheHybrid: You do realize that these things are far too easy to do than waving your hands and clapping in front of your TV. What I mean is, will you make a technology the "central attraction point" of your gaming console if it can not be used for gaming (refer to the video link I have given)? Will you make it this big of a deal just to flip channels and watch TV, which do not require inventing buttons on remote control, especially since newer android phones have TV remote function. About typing a message - No Sir/Ma'am, it doesn't take 10 min anymore. Did you watch Sony conference at Gamescom? @yosp types the message - in real time - in less than 30sec. and tweets it directly from PS4. Now, thats what I'd call truly useful integration of technology. Not waving, dancing, clapping and shouting at TV. But, this is just MY humble opinion.
My thoughts on kinect http://youtu.be/NIgfiSzCy1o
Although Im a Sony fan, I must say, that Actually You have made valid and constructive point. Its Your oppinion and people have no rights to disagree, but state their own oppinions.
And then you'll see a Kinect less skew by next holiday season for $100 less.
Next holiday? Just wait for a week. It doesn't take that long to flip a switch. I can already see next '180-in-making'