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PlayStation 4 May Not Feature AMD HUMA Support [UPDATE]

During a recent gamescom 2013 interview, an AMD spokesperson made inaccurate statements regarding the details of our semi-custom APU architectures. AMD will not comment on the Microsoft Xbox One and Sony PS4 memory architectures and will not speak for Microsoft, Sony or other AMD customers.

Upon asking AMD about HUMA’s implementation on either platform, i got the following reply:

Thanks for the response. Can’t go into any more details since it is up to Microsoft and Sony to talk about their products and implementations…but what I can say is that the comments coming out of gamescom were inaccurate.

AMD has their reasons for not commenting on this matter and PCPer also acknowledges that HUMA isn’t officially supported by currently available Jaguar powered chips aka Temash and Kabini which is a fact. But the possibility remains of HUMA on the semi-custom APU built by AMD. Only an official response from Sony and Microsoft can confirm whether or not their consoles utilize from...

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sobotz1070d ago (Edited 1070d ago )

http://www.qadate.com/image...

But I bet people will still say that PS4 IS featuring HUMA, even the AMD itself said it will NOT.

Muerte24941070d ago (Edited 1070d ago )

Stands for "unified memory" right? There was an article posted about this months ago.

"hUMA is a cache coherent system, meaning that the CPU and GPU will always see a consistent view of data in memory. If one processor makes a change then the other processor will see that changed data, even if the old value was being cached."

I remember Mark Cerny saying that both the CPU and GPU can access the same pool of memory. Thus PS4 supports "huMA".

Posted back in March
http://www.neogaf.com/forum...

Here you read up. Microsoft probably made a fuss about it. AMD is now only saying "no comment". Sony has teamed up with AMD and other in the HSA foundation.

http://www.fudzilla.com/hom...

AMD never said they PS4 didn't support it. They said "no comment". "You should ask Sony and Microsoft on what they support." I'll give a moment to let you finish the rest of that crow you're eating now.

golding891070d ago (Edited 1070d ago )

Lol. O boy. Does it really matter guys? Just enjoy the system you will buy..

This goes for both xbox fans and ps4 fans..

FlameHawk1070d ago

golding89, lol you are just saying that because Xbox One won't have it, if it were the other way around you would be boasting about it.

darthv721070d ago

AMD provided the chips to both Ms and sony and it was their own (MS/Sony) design teams that came up with the layout. If it is supported in one design, it is likely supported in the other but the implementation may be different due to the factors like how the traces are laid out to the type of memory in the unified pool.

both platforms are using a unified pool of memory and their respected cpu/gpu designs are able to access that unified pool in different modes depending on the application.

That effectively means that it is up to the developers and how they create their code if both the cpu/gpu access memory at the same time or not.

We wont see any real benefits of how this works until these systems have gone through at least the first generation of titles. By then the devs will have found each platforms sweet spot to harness the power efficiently.

Maddens Raiders1070d ago (Edited 1070d ago )

Muerte that's brilliant and exactly what I was thinking. AMD is not going to sink its ship with either company by coming out and flat saying this one does and this one doesn't. That's not their place, and quite frankly, they would be divulging information that only their client should be releasing to the public on this subject. We'll get confirmation of this soon enough I'm sure.

+1 for a well said comment.

edit/ @golding89 - you are one of the worst trolls I've seen here in a very long time. At this point I think you might even have Lightning beat. Keep it up, that one bubble is begging to be popped.

xer01070d ago

Nice response. Backed up with consistent messaging.

jelydonut1070d ago (Edited 1070d ago )

Just because the CPU and GPU can access the same memory pool definitely does not mean that cached changes from either core can be instantly seen by the other core (HUMA). If the CPU makes a change to memory, it may reside in cache until the cache controller sees fit to store it to shared memory. The GPU will not see the change until the CPU cache controller does the write.

From a design perspective, HUMA would definitely be a advantage for pumping data to and from the CPU/GPU. Hopefully the PS4 has it, but there is no proof. And this is a case of it either having it or not. There is no software change that can create HUMA, it's pure digital logic in silicon.

Edit: I don't get the disagrees as I am stating a fact as a digital logic/silicon engineer. I never said that PS4 has or hasn't HUMA, just saying that Shared Pool != HUMA.

gaelic_laoch1070d ago

Epic response bubbles galore!

MasterCornholio1070d ago (Edited 1070d ago )

Yep because if it wasnt true AMD would just say no and that would be the official confirmation that the PS4 doesnt have hUMA. Instead they stated that not all the information that the directive gave was correct. Which probably means that while the PS4 doesnt use the same hUMA technology as the Kabini chip it probably uses something similar which is further backed up with the bus that Mark Cerny mentions.

But heres the thing people assume that the PS4 and the XBOX One are exactly the same which isnt true. There are some technologies that the PS4 has that the XBOX One doesnt have and vice versa. In the end the most important thing is how the developers take advantage of the hardware and if one system is truly more powerful than the other that will be proven with the way games look on the console.

Ju1070d ago

I wouldn't be so tied up on cache coherency. This might not even be true. We know the GPU has additional cache line control logic and a non-cacheable direct bus to RAM. Since neither GPU nor CPU can read from the other's cache, they must share data through RAM. This explicit bus basically could almost seen like "SW controlled cache coherency" IMO.

What's much more interesting, however, is how addresses are seen by either one. If CPU and GPU see the memory through a shared memory controller, than they share the same addresses. This is inherently important because an address can simply be handed over from CPU to GPU and vice versa. No data need to be copied between the two. Again, important if you e.g. create matrix arrays which you need to move with the CPU but you'd want to use GPU power to transform those which is only possible if the GPU can access this memory - otherwise latency of moving that "tiny" block costs you more than multiplying 4x4 floats. Things like this will make a huge impact. Full cache coherency isn't even required to do this.

This however, is not hUMA according to AMDs next gen design which we will see in Kaveri, which has full cache coherency between CPU and GPU - and the PS4 chip is one (or a half) generation before that.

And by having said that, I guess, that some of the Kaveri design made it into the PS4 chip - e.g. mem controller probably (it differs from other APUs because those can max address 2GB through a "PCIe" like "virtual" interface) and with it shared address spaces.

The XBone has a complete different memory setup mainly because how it implements and depends on eSRAM. I doubt if there is any address sharing there - or maybe there is. I just doubt it, but have no idea. More like an educated guess.

Eventually we'll find out. The truth always comes out.

starchild1070d ago

@JelyDonut

I wouldn't worry about it. The fanboys on this site will disagree with anything they perceive to be negative toward a Playstation console, no matter how factual or well-reasoned, even if it really isn't negative at all.

tiffac0081070d ago

^Check the updates. The comment were inaccurate. No need to spread misleading and off topic hate.

joefrost001070d ago

You do know unified memory is very general
The X1 and ps4 have also the 360
So just saying cause they have unfied memory means it has huma
Thats pretty stupid

AzureskyZ1070d ago

@ starchild to tell you the truth i play on both side of the fence-- oh yeah i also game on Nintendo and so far the most illogical fanboys on this site has been xbots im afraid-- they tell lies after lies to try to promote their cause and somehow they think MS gets a freepass after they almost trampled over every gaming fans, mind you im not defending ps fanboys either as i find them almost as annoying, as most of them boast about specs but only a small handful of them comprehend what those specs entails--- and well nintendo fanboys is well nintendo fanboys-- i dont even understand their logic at all--- hate if you will but i just say it like i see it

NewMonday1069d ago

@darthv72

the XB1 dosn't have hUMA because it doesn't have unified memory, it is split into DDR3 and ESRAM.

JsonHenry1069d ago

@Muerte2494

Kabini doesn't support huMA. Both systems have a kabini GPU in them. You do the math. Unless that "semi" part of the "semi-custom" was specifically to add huMA support then I doubt the system will be supporting huMA.

NewMonday1069d ago (Edited 1069d ago )

@JsonHenry

non of them are Kabini, they may be equivalents but they are both custom designed, they are not "off the shelf" like some like to say, they need a specific manufacturing process, they just use standard architecture .

some of the customization are the increased ques and cache bypass on the PS4 and move engines on the XB1.

and like Muerte2494 said, Cerny described the same process as hUMA working on the PS4, maybe it's just they can't call it that.

extermin8or1069d ago

Thank god Meurte2494 you are living proof that other humans can use simple logic and reasoning to work things out :) well done :D (I'm not being patronising if that's how it sounds sorry) the whole thing is rediculous the only reason theyve had to withdraw previous comments is bwcuas MS are partners and they can't be seen to promote one console over the other. However on the whole AMD have said several thinfs I've been surprised MS let go I mean if I were them I'd be pissed off tbh. True or not the "ps4 our most powerful APU" comments among others must have ruffled some feathers.

darthv721069d ago

@newmonday you do know the ESRAM is not really RAM in the same sense right?

think of it as 32mb of Cache or a 32mb buffer. The rest of the memory in the system is unified just like in the 360.

H0RSE1069d ago

@FlameHawk

But Xbox does have it...

http://www.theverge.com/201...
"The AMD chips inside the PlayStation 4 and Xbox One take advantage of something called Heterogeneous Unified Memory Access (HUMA), which allows both the CPU and GPU to share the same memory pool instead of having to copy data from one before the other can use it."

http://www.youtube.com/watc...
"we have to invest a lot in coherency throughout the chip, so there's been io coherency for a while but we really wanted to get the software out of the mode of managing caches and put in hardware coherency for the first time on the mass scale in the living room on the gpu. "

It seems Xbox One has the same features, they just don't call it hUMA due to the extend of customization of the chip.

NewMonday1069d ago

@darthv72

- the Idea of hUMA is for the CPU and GPU to read data with fewr re-writes, I can't figure how the ESRAM setup works with this

- the XB1 DDR3 ram is one block but it is still partitioned between CPU and GPU like the usual conventional method, tasks don't need to be split like on the PS3, but just like on the PC re-writes are needed between CPU and GPU, so no hUMA.

+ Show (19) more repliesLast reply 1069d ago
pedrof931070d ago

@sobotz

Where does it says that ?

Did you read the article ?

vigilante_man1070d ago

It actually quotes a source saying it is used in PS4. Maybe he never read the article...

AngelicIceDiamond1070d ago

Now lets pout and cry about something your not even gonna notice when playing great games.

Ju1070d ago

Oh, if this is true, we will see this quite clearly. Might as well lead to a massive difference between the two machines and its games.

LostDjinn1070d ago (Edited 1070d ago )

Sobotz, if you read the piece you'd know AMD said they couldn't comment as that hardware belongs to Sony and MS.

My God are you that desperate that you have to make things up even when it flies in the face of the article you're commenting on? Don't you care that reading the first paragraph or two shows this?

Let me guess. You didn't think that fair ahead.

Edit: For editing and stuff.

Jazz41081069d ago

There was also a piece by a dev on here yesterday that said xboxone used it and of course it has the hypervisor as well.

LostDjinn1069d ago (Edited 1069d ago )

LOL
Jazz what the hell does that have to do with anything? Do you have any idea what a hypervisor does?

Edit: Not to worry. I took a quick look at your history. Everything makes sense now.

ABeastNamedTariq1070d ago

I'm sorry sobotz, but they got you there. They didn't say it wouldn't feature it. So quick to jump on any rumors about Sony, huh?

nypifisel1070d ago

It's been known since February that PS4 got a unified read/write pool of memory. AMD are not allowed to comment on either console - subtracting it now is damage control.

riseer231070d ago

You are right,their are NDA's that AMD has to honor.I don't think it matters much overall since 3rd party devs won't use it.I can see 1st party studios using it tho.

starchild1070d ago

Unified memory doesn't exactly mean that it is using hUMA. The Xbox One also has unified memory architecture.

nypifisel1070d ago

It's actually easier to program from a unified read/write pool. That is true, However I must point out that the Xbox one eDRAM can only be used by the GPU. It's pretty safe to say that Sony's custom GPU is using hUMA, and I believe that's where the PR word "Supercharged PC" comes from cause this wont be out on desktop PCs until next year!

FamilyGuy1070d ago

Whoa, learn to read.
AMD has NEVER, in any statement, current or retracted, said that "The PS4 does not feature hUMA".

Eonjay1070d ago

You are being a little desperate... please re-read what you posted. Sony has be talking about UMA since the reveal back in February.

joeorc1070d ago

@sobotz

they did not day such a thing, where did AMD confirm the PS4 does not contain Huma? no where, AMD did not retract anything.

so i claim i get a response from AMD and that is somehow, more credit worthy information than a freaking named, interviewed Sr. Product Manager AMD employee?

first off here was what was stated:

"Upon asking AMD about HUMA’s implementation on either platform, i got the following reply:
Thanks for the response. Can’t go into any more details since it is up to Microsoft and Sony to talk about their products and implementations…but what I can say is that the comments coming out of gamescom were inaccurate.

Read more: http://wccftech.com/amd-hum...

who did the response from AMD? unlike many of the websites now Quote "sending email's" to AMD, where is the names? huh who is responding to them from AMD?

At least name your source! Hise did, why not you?

at least the orig. news source gave out a freaking AMD product manager name and it was in an interview, and AMD yet confirmed it was an interview out at gamescom.

"HUMA isn’t officially supported by currently available Jaguar powered chips aka Temash and Kabini which is a fact."

and the fact is these are not just a off the shelf Temash, And Kabini processor's that are in PC's they are custom made and tweaked.

HowarthsNJ1070d ago

http://www.bit-tech.net/new...

Interesting reading from a while back. PS4 is mentioned at the bottom.

FamilyGuy1070d ago (Edited 1070d ago )

Nice, they mention the PS4 specifically while stating no other chips will feature this till 2014.

"The arrival of HSA is still some way off, with the first AMD chips set to use the architecture expected to arrive early next year. However, the PlayStation 4 is expected to feature an HSA type processor, so we'll see some indication of what we can look forward to when that console arrives in Q4 this year"

That's all the validation I need, lol.

+bubbles, helpful in clearing up the facts.
This was posted on April 30th people, no retracting on that. No mistakes in this, straight from the horses mouth.

quenomamen1070d ago

Lol, so lets pretend that it was all BS from the start and PS4 has no built in HUMA support right ? Alright then wouldnt that mean MS got super trolled by AMD ? I mean 12 hours after the article stating the PS4 had it, some MS Dev, not even MS themselves comes out talking bout how XB1 will also have something like it.

Haha, its like if AMD announces that PS4 has Supercalofragelstic Memory Access, then 12 hours later a MS Dev comes out saying " ooh yea we got some of that too "

I actually hope to God AMD was lying all along just to prove how desperatly the people at MS are trying to keep up with whatever PS4 has. Pathetic

starchild1070d ago

Oh come on, just because a developer working on an XB1 game came forward and said "hmm that sounds a lot like what we are doing on the XB1" doesn't mean MS are copying Sony.

Can you get any more irrational? God, some of you just make me shake my head with how biased and illogical you are.

quenomamen1070d ago

If its all BS then why did some MS Dev come out saying the XB1 will have something similiar ? MS get trolled ? Lol

Nekroo911070d ago

did you read the article the senior marketing manager from AMD said that the ps4 uses huMa...lol

GraveLord1070d ago

PS4 will feature hUMA its just that AMD told us a fact that made the Xbox One sound weaker so Microsoft told them to retract their statement.

AMD didn't say PS4 doesn't have hUMA, it said "forget what we said, no comment".

Clarence1070d ago

You do know that AMD does not want to hurt their relationship with M$. The cat is out of the bag. They would like M$ to come back to them when and if they make a new console down the line.

If your a company developing a product for two opposing company, your job is to develope a product. You should not comment on which product is better.

You messing up your money when you do that. So know the big wiggs at AMD have to step in to retract a statement that could cost them money.

MasterGuru1070d ago

Sobotz is that desperate to prove a point... To the extent of perceiving what an article is about without even bothering to read it first..

Pity him...

P.S. The article headline is misleading as fuck. Can't believe such a headline wasn't edited first. Nothing in the article even indicates what this headline would literally mean. Stupid way to get traffic.

miDnIghtEr20C_SfF1069d ago

LMAO.. Playstation fanboys don't know what to do right now.

This is like the 4.5 gigs for games they have and 3 gigs for the OS. They just got shut up again.

Angeljuice1069d ago

" LMAO.. Playstation fanboys don't know what to do right now.

This is like the 4.5 gigs for games they have and 3 gigs for the OS. They just got shut up again."

Translation:

"I'm crying in a corner and desperately clinging to the hope that Sony doesn't have hUMA in the PS4 (despite knowing deep down that it does) because if it does I will look even more of a tool for backing the wrong horse"

"Plus the cloud-powered hyperviser can order the move engines to alter and rebuild the Xbone's architecture anyway"

2cents1069d ago

LOL

No one knew what Huma was till the post now suddenly is the greatest thing since sliced bread.

"we now have Huma integrated into our 3d modelling architecture, just ask this scientician" "...erm"

(Simpsons reference)

Angeljuice1069d ago

Just because your ignorant, doesn't mean everyone else didn't know about it.

Angeljuice1069d ago

Just because you're ignorant, doesn't mean everyone else didn't know about it.

2cents1069d ago

I was making a joke about the whole situation, not laughing at Sony.

Obviously I have struck a nerve with you, didnt mean to offend anyone, just highlighting the hilarity of this whole debacle.

Not to metion this rubbish article that is all based on speculation and assumptions.

im far from ignorant, thanks for making it personal.

+ Show (16) more repliesLast reply 1069d ago
RytGear1070d ago (Edited 1070d ago )

AMD didn't say that there would be no support but just "no comment"
Sonys heavy input into the HSA foundation does indicate that it will have Huma but aren't allowed to say because of MS.

OlgerO1070d ago

This headline is awfully inaccurate. all that the article is saying is that AMD doesn't confirm anything and that it is up to sony and microsoft to reveal their hardware choice. Still it seems highly likely that the PS4 does have HUMA support after the statement

Whitey2k1070d ago

ps4 I think does support it otherwise they would have trouble of having the cpu and gpu communicating with the GDDr5 considering the cpu isn't that strong

jjb19811070d ago

I think AMD was being neutral about discussing the actual architecture. They don't want to piss off their major customers after all.

Transporter471070d ago

i'm going out on a limb here and say it does, but since it got leaked from them they could get into trouble so they backed up with a PR statement of course.