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Submitted by ajames347 328d ago | news

Indie Developer Jon Olick Backtracks on Incendiary Tweets About Sony’s IP Policies for the PS4

Recently indie developer Jon Olick kicked up a fuse on Twitter about alleged policies Sony had in their contract agreements regarding any independent games the first party company supports, which according to Olick stated that Sony would gain ownership of IPs published on PS4. Today he has updated his Twitter account with a series tweets that rectifies what he had claimed previously. (Industry, PS4, Sony)

XboxFun  +   328d ago | Well said
This is why people in the industry (or in life) need to keep their mouths shut. Tweeting on the spot experiences have gotten so many people in trouble it is not even funny.
iamnsuperman  +   328d ago
I agree but I see it as natural selection. Weaning out those people. The guy just made a fool out of himself
#1.1 (Edited 328d ago ) | Agree(56) | Disagree(5) | Report | Reply
NewMonday  +   328d ago
it is very simple, if Indy devs fund it they own it and the platform is available for them to self publish and set the price, date, patch, advertise, Sony only owns it if they fund the game themselves.

so if an Indy dev wants to keep the rights totally he should fund the game independently, like using Kicksatrer, Project Phoenix just recently did this and will be on almost every platform.

the mix up is about the development tools..

"Originally Posted by famousmortimer

Much ado about nothing..Back in the day id used to license their engine for free or very cheap. Their policy was that you could edit it in any way that you want but whatever improvements you came up with id owned and could use on future versions of the engine. This was in place when half life was made..The wording in this sounds similar. What i read is that if you "invent" something in terms of development on a ps4 dev kit that Sony can then incorporate it into their dev kit. I would be shocked if that wasn't true of Microsoft and nintendo also (or the unreal engine for that matter) . I don't believe this has anything to do with controlling IPs. "

and..

"Originally Posted by GoldenHelmet

Seriously?

We're making GAMES for PS4 and not one has a clause about ownership transferring to SCEA OR SCEE.

This is NOT the case, the only thing that IS owned by Sony, which is the same as Microsoft and Nintendo are the SDK' and the hardware, which is why most companies GIVE it away, so developers aren't paying for something they NEVER own."
#1.1.1 (Edited 328d ago ) | Agree(23) | Disagree(1) | Report
JC_Denton  +   328d ago
@newmonday

If only people helped Shadow of the Eternals as much. . . 8 days from ending the Kick Starter and only 34% of the way there.
#1.1.2 (Edited 328d ago ) | Agree(6) | Disagree(0) | Report
NewMonday  +   328d ago
@JC_Denton

Kicksatrer is dependent on reputation, for SotE the devs have a very bad one, I loved Eternal Darkness but don't trust DennisD, I would rather they have a publisher with experience pushing them.
#1.1.3 (Edited 328d ago ) | Agree(2) | Disagree(1) | Report
DigitalRaptor  +   328d ago
@ newmonday

You don't trust the guy to make a great video game, or you don't trust him for his disgusting choices in pornography?

It's a shame so many people's personal feelings about Dyak are getting in the way of a talented and passionate team to make a sequel to a fantastic game that won't see a successor any other way.

I think you're right though, at this stage it would be more favourable for a publisher to snap this up. Looks great.
#1.1.4 (Edited 328d ago ) | Agree(2) | Disagree(2) | Report
ohiostatesman  +   328d ago
Sony reveals to the world who they really are. A snake in disguise. Don't get fooled guys. Sony is the same company that charges 100 dollars for a 32gb memory card.
TheoreticalParticle  +   327d ago
digitalraptor:

"You don't trust the guy to make a great video game, or you don't trust him for his disgusting choices in pornography?"

100% the first part. I don't even know what you're referring to in the 2nd.

But after him yammering on for years about how Too Human was his dream game, it's like, dude... I don't ever need to support anyone who dreams of making games that are THAT awful.

Then, instead of realizing that his vision was poorly executed he starts whining and trying to sue Epic because their engine is too crappy for him to make good games, a problem that manages to stumble nobody else at any level from indie to AAA.

Get lost, Dyack.
#1.1.6 (Edited 327d ago ) | Agree(0) | Disagree(0) | Report
Abriael  +   328d ago
Or at least get legal advice from decent professionals instead of wannabes.

Edit: lol at the disagree. Someone thinks one should get legal advice from his aunt so that he can properly rage at sony over a misconception.
#1.2 (Edited 328d ago ) | Agree(27) | Disagree(3) | Report | Reply
MWong  +   328d ago
Agreed seek competent and soundly legal advise. Sucks he had to find out the hard way though.
Abriael  +   328d ago
@MWong: coukd have been worse. He could have started some legal action on the advice from that dude. He just got shamed on the internets. Burns, but it's no big damage.
HammockGames  +   328d ago
^ Agreed fellas

This type of scenario strikes me as a form of professional Darwinism.

Attrition of cretinism through social media.
#1.2.3 (Edited 328d ago ) | Agree(2) | Disagree(0) | Report
SchwoererBear  +   328d ago
When you're in trouble you, "Better call Saul". Idk if you watch Breaking Bad but that just came up in my head...
ZHZ90  +   328d ago
He shouldn't dare write about this on twitter or he's in big trouble.
die_fiend  +   328d ago
I know...how do people not yet realise that you shouldn't publish things like this on a social network. You can't just slander people and because it's on your Twitter account, expect to be exempt from the law.

For some-one who must be tech-savvy as a game developer, you really need to engage your brain and think 'Should I publicly slate a private contract I have, to the world'. If he even needs a lawyer to indicate that's not a great idea then he deserves to be panned. And is he moaning about a paralegal giving him bad advice? That's almost slander again
majiebeast  +   328d ago
I think they should have special how not to ruin your carreer on twitter courses for any company employee.

I loved it when other indie devs said he was wrong his reply was, bubububut my Harvard lawyer said.
#1.4 (Edited 328d ago ) | Agree(9) | Disagree(0) | Report | Reply
Abriael  +   328d ago
Haha i doubt he ruined his career. Mostly his ego
majiebeast  +   328d ago
Yeah but i mean in general. Also he decided to hand out non existant dirty laundry of a future business partner thats just stupid.
darkride66  +   328d ago
What's odd to me is how he thought Sony would gain ownership of the IP's in the first place. I've read these contracts. I didn't see anything that would lead me to believe this was the case. In fact, there's a whole section on Acknowledgment of Company’s Ownership Rights that outlines that your company still retains all rights to their products.

So what gave him that idea in the first place, I wonder?
Abriael  +   328d ago
Even more so, if that was even remotely true how did he not think someone would have raised a storm MUCH before him?
DemiImp  +   328d ago
There was no Acknowledgement of Company's Ownership Rights section.

The contract said:

"All Next Gen Materials, all inventions and developments that utilize or incorporate Next Gen Materials and any derivatives of Next Gen materials are the sole property of SCEA"

Next Gen Materials means the PS4, any software Sony gives him related to the PS4, and any other info Sony give him related to the PS4.

So, unless he doesn't utilize the PS4, any software related to it, or any info about it when making his game...
#1.5.2 (Edited 328d ago ) | Agree(1) | Disagree(7) | Report
Kurylo3d  +   328d ago
Well the problem is next gen could even specify next gen artwork, next gen game engines.. next gen anything... Its all in the eye of the beholder. i dont think sony was clear enough.
darkride66  +   328d ago
If you develop something using Sony's SDK, they still retain ownership of what they provided to you. Next Gen materials is materials provided to the company from Sony, not the other way around. This doesn't have anything to do with the ownership of your own IP's.

Ownership Rights is in another agreement which they probably would have signed dealing with ownership of IP's. The company still owns all rights to art, source code, music, etc but excludes intellectual property provided to the company by Sony.

Personally, I think a great way to nullify a Confidentiality and Non-disclosure agreement is to go onto twitter and leak details of an agreement that is meant to be confidential.
yeahokchief  +   328d ago
Sooner or later it'll just bite them in the butt. If they are going to have one, it should be managed by a third party.

I don't have time to listen to what they're thinking about anyways. Too... Many... Games...
#1.6 (Edited 328d ago ) | Agree(0) | Disagree(0) | Report | Reply
3-4-5  +   327d ago
Twitter needs an app where it won't actually post what you've typed for 24 hours. That way you get time to delete what you might not want people to read or what you may not even believe yourself anymore once you've calmed down.

I still think Twitter is stupid, but I see it's purpose.
3-4-5  +   327d ago
Moral of the Story:

Think before you talk/type ?
joefrost00  +   327d ago
Didnt sound like he was wrong
Sound more like he didnt know what he was getting into
I can believe that
But anything even implying sony might be a tad bit greedy or unfair is just
Blasphemy on this site
CEOSteveBallmer  +   325d ago
coming from a pro xbox dude. just saw the comment you made when im reading the other articles and now i saw you again here. heres a quote "Ryse looks better than what the PS4 can offer" a bold statement bro. maybe you didn't look closely at infamous and killzone's environment. and if we are talking about graphics only. The dark sorcerer is the best in visuals. yes its not a game but its running in real time on PS4. and not to mention the order 1888. naughty dog and santa monica haven't even shown what their games are. MS showing "almost" all their big guns already
fOrlOnhOpe57  +   328d ago
The worlds gone 180 batsh*t crazy !
yewles1  +   328d ago
Well that idiot screwing over Mr. Olick just gave para legals a bad name...
Kenshin_BATT0USAI  +   328d ago
Because society knows and respects Olick's opinion?

Trust me, this changes nothing for para legals. LOL
JunioRS101  +   328d ago
Idk what Olick was trying to say, but I seriously doubt Sony just takes ownership of every game on its platform lol

Clearly he misunderstood part of the contract.
DemiImp  +   328d ago
No, that's what the contract said. It's quite clear when you look at it.

"All Next Gen Materials, all inventions and developments that utilize or incorporate Next Gen Materials and any derivatives of Next Gen materials are the sole property of SCEA"

Next Gen Materials means the PS4, any software Sony gives him related to the PS4, and any other info Sony give him related to the PS4.

So, unless he doesn't utilize the PS4, any software related to it, or any info about it when making his game...
#4.1 (Edited 328d ago ) | Agree(0) | Disagree(17) | Report | Reply
porkChop  +   328d ago
It just has to do with Sony's SDK and development tools. If you update/modify the tools Sony has the right to use those modifications in the future as the tools belong to them. This has nothing to do with games or IP at all. The guy completely misunderstood what it was saying and made an ass out of himself.
corvusmd  +   328d ago
Uh, so if you don't utilize or incorporate PS materials...how exactly do you get it on the system? Assuming you can publish it without using any PS Material....do you just throw it out there and hope that it works bug free? Sony is anything but indie friendly, but it's amazing how many fanboys are fighting tooth and nail for PS...if this was MS they'd be on the other side just as aggressively....the favoritism is more ridiculous than ever.
Silly gameAr  +   328d ago
@corvusmd

I really wish people would give that "poor MS gets ripped unfairly on N4G" crap a rest. Some people actually do give them credit when it's due. This is about an indy dev ranting about something he misunderstood on Twitter anyway. This has nothing to do with poor ol' Microsoft.
dennett316  +   328d ago
@corvusmd, what on Earth are you talking about? Why are you still talking about something you don't understand, and using that inaccuracy as a basis to stir up a console war conversation?
How can you say that Sony are not indie friendly considering their free rental of dev kits to small indie game makers in an effort to help them get projects off the ground? How can you claim they're not indie friendly when they were allowing self publishing on their network at a time when Microsoft were not? And indeed, it still took a fair amount of negative coverage before MS reversed that dumb policy.
How can you say they're not indie friendly when they prominently featured several indie devs (and their games) on stage at E3?

The guy who made these posts was wrong, as were the idiots giving him advice. It's been clearly set out numerous times on various comments here exactly why he now acknowledges he was wrong....and yet you're still trying to argue a nonsensical position? Why?
rainslacker  +   328d ago
I think you, as well as some others, are looking at materials in too narrow a way. Materials, in reference to Sony's SDK, which this clause is applicable too, could be anything provided by Sony in their dev kit in order for someone to make their game. Typically software API's, source code, general default features, etc.

So, knowing this lets take an example of something that someone could put in there, that would now belong to Sony.

Sony, in it's dev kit has a set of API's that function to display/interface the save game features for a game. If a developer decides they want their own custom save game screen functionality, they go in, using the original save game API's as a basis(would likely have to for system access), and customizes it to make it more efficient, or to perform additional tasks...like say create a special database entry, or upload that save automatically, contact leader boards, or whatever.

Under this clause, that new custom save interface implementation is now the property of Sony since it was built on top of Sony's original API. They have rights to redistribute it on a future release.

This is in no way connected to any additional material used to actually create the save game screen. Any artwork, or possibly UI interface that is completely designed or made to make this screen without using the Sony SDK is still the property of the developer.
BABY-JEDI  +   328d ago
It's the curse of the tweet!
Beware you tweeters out there!
T2  +   328d ago
Im not sure whats more sad - that people feel the need to tweet whenever they take a piss or that people actually care and read it
iceman06  +   328d ago
I'm gonna say...umm...YES!
BABY-JEDI  +   328d ago
Some people REALLY need to let the world know LoL
Abriael  +   328d ago
You seem to have cared enough to read AND comment :D
Transporter47  +   328d ago
*facepalm* He can't read wright.
WrAiTh Sp3cTr3  +   328d ago
*facepalm* You can't write right...wright?
#6.1 (Edited 328d ago ) | Agree(11) | Disagree(7) | Report | Reply
ElementX  +   328d ago
Well played!
Transporter47  +   328d ago
fyi that was done purposely but guess you missed the point.

If i need to explain it, it defeats the purpose.
#6.1.2 (Edited 328d ago ) | Agree(12) | Disagree(1) | Report
Abriael  +   328d ago
Objection?
Martywren  +   328d ago
Lol
Good_news_every1   328d ago | Spam
wishingW3L  +   328d ago
you can't tweet anything because the fanboys will attack you even for the tiniest of things.
dennett316  +   328d ago
Tiniest things? Like being unbelievably wrong in suggesting that Sony would effectively steal the rights to indie companies IP merely by featuring said IP on their console?

You don't think that's more than a tiny thing? The guy and his lawyers were too dumb to understand a contract that a TON of other indie devs understood just fine.
rainslacker  +   328d ago
Eh, for the lawyers part they probably misunderstood the meaning of the text. In these types of contracts(hell most any contract), what is what is explained explicitly at the beginning of the contract. Think party of the first part, and when they say who is considered the contractor or contractee, etc.

Some of the tweets referenced the fact that it was a para-legal who gave him the information. Other indicated that the lawyer wasn't versed in software copyright law.

I've personally read one of Sony's developer's contracts(MS as well), and trust me, they are a confusing mess of legalese. I'm sure it makes sense to the lawyers who know about what's being talked about though, and lawyers are there to keep other lawyers employed.:)

Don't care to research this topic further though, because for a developer to really believe that Sony would strip them of their IP's and not a single other indie dev would bat an eye, is just plain illogical.
PFFT  +   328d ago
AHHH well. it happens
#8 (Edited 328d ago ) | Agree(0) | Disagree(0) | Report | Reply
AceofStaves  +   328d ago
Yet more proof that social media and one's career don't always mix well.
Abriael  +   328d ago
Don't I know..
Good_news_every1   328d ago | Spam
DemiImp  +   328d ago
This is ridiculous. Read his latest tweet ( https://twitter.com/search?...

He clarifies what he's saying. He's giving advice to people not used to dealing with OTHER lawyers, not your (or his) own. He was trying to say that if you don't get things in writing that you don't have proof of what they said.

Aka: If sony's lawyers said "Hey, this doesn't mean what you think it means. We won't own your stuff!" but you don't have a written copy of them saying that, they can later say "Oh, you misunderstood us. It really did mean that we own your stuff." and you won't have much ground to lean on.
porkChop  +   328d ago
Not exactly true. Verbal agreements are actually applicable in court. A verbal agreement is treated similarly to a written one.
Biggest  +   328d ago
Yeah, no. He's trying to blame someone else for his stupidity. Nice try. Enjoy the egg stuffed crow.
rainslacker  +   328d ago
Ummm...isn't the contract that Sony is saying doesn't mean what he thinks it means the writing that he is saying others need to get in writing?

FYI...contracts are explicit. They are not vague. Particularly not one of this magnitude. Everything is spelled out in detail about who is responsible for what. What exactly you can and cannot do. Who will own what at the end, and who has what liability. Nothing in these contracts is left up to legal argument. Everything in these contracts also is bound by general civil laws regarding anything in them.

Stop trying to make this into a bad thing for Sony. The guy screwed up. He didn't understand what was written. His lawyer misinformed him, likely unknowingly. He made a rant and got egg on his face.
Tehjorge  +   328d ago
Twitter should have a "Are you sure you really want to tweet that?" Button.
Good_news_every1   328d ago | Spam
rainslacker  +   328d ago
My advice to anyone who wants to post a impulse rant on twitter....Don't.
JohnS1313  +   328d ago
This guy must not understand English legal language. I doubt it says anything about Sony owning the games. Everyone else would be talking about that.
ion666  +   328d ago
cant wait for H HOUR. Woohoo!!!
ziggurcat  +   328d ago
this is a prime example of why people need to think before they run their mouths.
FAT MAN GO BOOM  +   328d ago
Twitter- Allowing people to talk out of their ass in a 140 characters or less since 2006!!!
Eonjay  +   328d ago
So whats up with people making dumb or false comments on twitter. I think people would have figured it out by now. How do you not know that self publishing means what it means. Sorry you also don't get to blame your lawyer man.
ethomaz  +   328d ago
Already proved false.
JonOlick  +   327d ago
This story is COMPLETELY false.

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