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The PS4′s “Big Challenge” is its AMD Chip that “Heavily Relies on Multi-Threading,” Says PS2 Dev

When it comes to actually getting the game up and running on PS4, as opposed to PC, Matt talked about how “the PS4 is a lot easier because you have a consistent set of hardware that you’re optimizing against. It really is a challenge to optimize high-end PC games to be able to work on the pantheon of hardware that’s available to players nowadays, it’s just insane.” - PSLS

Update:

PlanetSide Engine’s “Big Challenge” is that AMD Chip “Heavily Relies on Multi-Threading”, “Not Something all Developers Will Have as a Hurdle”

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AcesHigh2911060d ago

Multiple cores requiring multi-threading? Who knew.

wishingW3L1060d ago

the point is that their engine doesn't fully supports it and it just took advantage of Intel's raw power. Now they are forced to optimize for multi-threading on the PS4 because unlike PC consoles don't have much raw power so they have to optimize... And if you read his quote, he said that at the end this would benefit PC gamers too because the game would finally take advantage of the multi-threading tech on PC's CPUs.

NewMonday1060d ago (Edited 1060d ago )

the big point here is that PC games on AMD GPUs will improve a lot, this might tilt the balance away from inVidia in the future.

Bobbo441060d ago

@newmonday

This has nothing to do with GPUs. If you meant CPUs, it has nothing to do with Nvidia. If you meant CPUs and Intel, then Intel will also benefit from this. Intel has 8 threads on their quad core CPUs (i7) in which they will also benefit a lot from games better use of multiple threads. Not only that, but individual cores on Intel CPUs are faster.

starchild1060d ago

I've been thinking since the specs were leaked that the relatively weak 8 core Jaguar CPUs in the PS4 and XB1 would require a shift towards highly parallelized work loads. There is no other way to get satisfactory performance out of those processors.

This could end up being a point of weakness in the consoles if developers don't do a really good job learning to multi-thread their engines.

By and large, though, it should result in engines that take much better advantage of the multi-core processors in PCs and consoles.

wishingW3L1060d ago (Edited 1060d ago )

"People who have AMD chips have a disadvantage, because a single core on an AMD chip doesn’t really have as much horsepower (as an Intel's)"

"Our engine sucks at that right now. We are multi-threaded, but the primary gameplay thread is very expensive. The biggest piece of engineering work that they’re doing right now, is to go back through the engine and re-optimize it to be really, truly multi-threaded"
---------

This has nothing to do with GPU. They are talking about the fact that each core on an Intel CPU is more powerful than AMD's. So to achieve better performance they have to optimize by spreading tasks through every core. And at the end, everybody will benefit, console and PC.

ShinMaster1060d ago

Seems like it's a challenge in a good way (?)

nypifisel1060d ago (Edited 1060d ago )

That's just sad. We've had mutli-core CPUs for so long now that the engines really should be catered towards using them.

Ju1060d ago (Edited 1060d ago )

8 threads on intel's quad core give you almost no advantage over 4 threads (as long is there is a single memory transfer involved). In most cases you could get a minimal benefit of running 6, but 8 threads are as fast as 4. Tested my self. You could probably gain a little by keeping data close to the CPU (caches), but otherwise hyper threading is no replacement for real cores.

Console developers were force thinking parallel since the current gen, otherwise the 360s tri core or PS3's SPUs would be under-utilized and we would not see the games we have. It amazes me, that we still have game developers (probably mainly working on PCs) which do not split task into multiple parallel work loads.

Kleptic1060d ago (Edited 1060d ago )

^no offense, but it amazes 'you', as in...how involved are you with active game development, and in particular...overhead costs?

difficulty in writing parallel processing isn't anything new...and the biggest problem with it is lack of standardized middleware, at least in the gaming sense...

Sony has attempted to combat this issue internally through SCE and shared development cycles (a program they used to call EDGE, which was available to third parties around 2010)...Santa Monica studio's heavily utilized both Naughty Dog's asset streaming tech, as well as Guerilla's killzone 2 based lighting engine...for GoW 3...

The problem with parallel processing is simply return on investment...Clock speeds, and therefor heat output and energy consumption, weere reaching critical mass years ago...and the answer has been multiple cores and multi-threading...in which multiple instruction sets are carried out on the same amount of electricity...architecturally, this is huge...and extremely efficient...its just that its nearly impossible to ring out...the amount of time it takes to squeeze, optimize, and reduce redundancy is exponentially higher than if you are just running a single instruction set per cycle...

and that time..is money...and in the case of something like the PS3...all that extra parallel processing ability the cpu had, was still hampered by limited video resources...you could spend millions to get slightly better physics, or more complex lighting effects...but effects like that are relatively subtle...compared to a major bump to resolution and AA...and with an industry obsessed with comparing screen shots, static texture detail, and other things completely unrelated to what the game looks like while actually being played...i can't say i blame any developer for taking so long to come around on massive research on parallel code writing...

Ju1060d ago

"Parallel Jobs" is what gaming is all about. Threading alone will not solve the problem because a careless designed multi threading model will quickly saturate the cores. Locking and synchronization will rape all the benefits of multiple cores fast.

With that said, game developers have started using jobs instead of "just" threads which give you much better granularity over what gets scheduled and when. In this respect it is irrelevant if you have coherent or non-coherent cores (e.g. SPUs). In fact, the SPUs are easier to "prototype" with, because you won't run into latency issues with threads and you are closer to the metal and still have total control over the cores themselves.

A really good example is Killzone SF (at least what is known today) where the "job manager" from previous titles was ported to the APU and even more tasks are now handled by jobs.

A lot of work was done on PS3 first an backported to the 360 because of this. And it benefited both. Interestingly, it seamed to be more expensive (cost wise) to implement this on the 360 than PS3 - simply because there is no middle where which does job handling for you. Sony at least offers SPURS.

awi59511060d ago (Edited 1060d ago )

@Bobbo44

AMD cpus run better for the cost than the intel chips. Intels usually beat them in single core but the amd cheaper cpus win in multithreaded aps. People who do video processing or run servers like the AMD chips for the cost you get way more for those uses.

mantell1059d ago SpamShow
Oner1059d ago (Edited 1059d ago )

When you got a Naughty Dog dev praising it saying ~

"the amount of parallel execution available is just nutso. Like SPUs you need to change your thinking, but when you do..."

Source ~ https://twitter.com/cowbs/s...

It's quite important and something to keep an eye out for this next gen coming up.

SegaSaturn6691059d ago

I think the really challenge here is containing the power of god in a small box.

+ Show (10) more repliesLast reply 1059d ago
RedHawkX1060d ago

this is why pc gamers need to support the ps4 and bash the xbox one. no one who cares about pc gaming should ever be saying anything good about the xbox one at this point. the only way your pc games will look better and be better if we all support the ps4. sony fans, pc fans, and wii fans need to unite for a better gaming future wii u fans jump on ps4 bandwagon so the wii u lives because people will get the ps4 and the wii u instead of xbox one and ps4. gamers need to be smart about console choices and choose the one best for gaming and trash talk the one thats worse for gaming and xbox one is the worst.

starchild1060d ago (Edited 1060d ago )

Nothing you said makes a bit of sense nor relates in any way to the subject of the article.

RedHawkX1060d ago PersonalAttacksShow
The_Sneauxman1060d ago (Edited 1060d ago )

dude you have two bubbles... Soon may be ONE and then you and the Xbox ONE will have something in common which parallelically we bash you.

This is N4G, anything can happen

CrossingEden1060d ago

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The fanboyism in your comment is just....sad, seriously, there is not a single logical thought in that post. You are the definition of a fanboy.

JP13691060d ago

I have my PS4 pre-ordered. Having said that, people like you should be neutered. Funny that you mention intellect in your second post, as it seems to be the very thing for which you are lacking entirely.

Maddens Raiders1060d ago

@RedHawkX - I ready your post I nearly wet myself laughing at the level of defense force in your words. I understand your passion but you have to express yourself in a more mature, logical way. Thanks anyway!

Bluepowerzz1060d ago

agreed the neutral fakers who try to act like gods round here are xbots too

Koyes1060d ago

I would tell you to get a life but I figured that an 11 year old won't have much going for him/her anyway

GodGinrai1060d ago

"this is why pc gamers need to support the ps4 and bash the xbox one. no one who cares about pc gaming should ever be saying anything good about the xbox one at this point"

LMAO!!..Or PC gamers can just say they are held back by two nextgen consoles that are stuck with "underpowered" laptop CPUs.

I own an intel core i7 (2600K OC @ 4.2GHz mated to a gigabyte z68-UD7 MOBO and 16GB of ram..oh and a ASUS/nvidia 560Ti TOP)that I use to make music on and play the odd game. I DONT expect ANY PS4 or Xbox game to look as good as does on my PC. Im still buying both though. I wont blame either console if PC gameing ges "held back" Ill just blame the devs for bothering with a console port. I think that is the stance most PC gamers will take on this. They wont pick a side just to suit your agenda,Redhawx.

" sony fans, pc fans, and wii fans need to unite for a better gaming future wii u fans jump on ps4 bandwagon so the wii u lives because people will get the ps4 and the wii u instead of xbox one and ps4"

Really?...im not gonna dignify this with a response...

awi59511059d ago (Edited 1059d ago )

MY pc games were going to look better than the PS4's anyway by default. My gpu is more powerful than whats in the PS4 and i have two of them so it was never contest.

Belking1059d ago

The hate is strong in this one...lol

givemeshelter1059d ago

RedHawk...Did you go full retard?

ZHZ901059d ago

Even though I am getting PS4, but the way you talk is immature.

Btw bashing XBO won't change people's, who want XBO, mind.

+ Show (13) more repliesLast reply 1059d ago
RachelNSmith1060d ago SpamShow
annus1060d ago

Multi-threading is related to a single core, not multiple cores. It's one core using multiple threads.

You can have a single core that uses multi-threading, or multiple cores that don't use multi-threading.

Anonagrog1060d ago

Wait... What?!

Are you thinking of hardware multi-threading/SMT here instead of software multi-threading?

CrusRuss1060d ago

Ummmm... No dude. Threading refers to developing code that can be run in parallel across multiple cores (either physical or virtual cores, like hyperthreading).

If you writes two threads to run on one core, they are taking turns to run, thus giving you no advantage.

pedrof931060d ago

"they are looking at being able to transfer your character from PC to PS4 or PS4 to PC"

This is nice. It would help me very much.

saber000051060d ago

@newmonday, I hate to break it to you, if it's any company that will die out, it would be AMD. They have been struggling to keep up with their competitors. This is coming from a previous AMD user...

PSN_ZeroOnyx1059d ago

AMD in every PS4 and X1, they are doing ok at the moment.

saber000051059d ago

@PSN_ZeroOnyx, Yes their sales will be OK for now, however... Their technology is behind. Just like Apple. Do they have USB 3.0 yet? NOPE.. :P

GraveLord1060d ago

PS4 + Xbox One will heavily benefit PC Gaming as multiple cores will finally be taken advantage of.

I think all gamers should be excited about this coming generation.

Hitman07691060d ago (Edited 1060d ago )

Derpologist. Derpology is strong in this one (PS2 Dev). Lolcakes, roflcopters, roflwaffles.

@CrossingEden bubbled like you've never been bubbled before son.

JsonHenry1059d ago

This is really a boon for all PC gamers. FINALLY we are going to get native x64, fully multi-threaded, and optimized games on the PC to really show off what they've been capable of for a while but the dev community has yet to provide.

kevnb1059d ago

that was more an issue of dx9, and too many gamers being slow to upgrade past 8800/9800 graphics.

3-4-51059d ago

Damn that GBC and it's reliance on Color.

kevnb1059d ago

single core performance is weak compared to intel, and the processors the next gen consoles are using are weak for 2013 period.

+ Show (8) more repliesLast reply 1059d ago
ftwrthtx1060d ago

And that is why I wish all gaming platforms had been PC based last gen. Could you imagine where the developers would be now if the PS3 used an Intel or AMD chip?

Gaming would have been growing in leaps and bounds instead of baby steps.

HemDeviance1060d ago

Uh, the problem (from the article) is that the main game thread is quite expansive, as it was written for an Intel CPU.

It doesn't have anything at all to do with current-gen consoles, only splitting and optimizing the (always PC, never console) main thread to run across multiple threads, increasing the performance on AMD-based systems.

I have no idea where you're getting this PowerPC vs x86 processor thing.

Gster1060d ago

To save the confusion, I would have lovin to see your comment at the top of the pile. Makes perfect sense.

FrigidDARKNESS1060d ago

Sony is a non HSa member so the ps4 uses the AMD Kabini that is not as good at multi core threading like the HSA Kaveri.

http://www.theinquirer.net/...

M-M1060d ago (Edited 1060d ago )

Hey look what I found.

http://www.fudzilla.com/hom...

Also, just in case you try to say it's fake, last paragraph from the HSA foundation themselves. Troll harder ;).

http://hsafoundation.com/ab...

NewMonday1060d ago

FrigidDARKNESS gets owned big time

FrigidDARKNESS1060d ago

Nope, sony not a member if they were they wouldnt be using the Kabini cpu.
As of now nothing has been announced .

FlameHawk1060d ago

@ FrigidDARKNESS, you are really bad a trolling.

fr0sty1060d ago

"Today, those numbers swell to 23 as Sony, ST-Ericsson and STMicroelectronics joined up as contributors to the Foundation. "

Let's just ignore reality and then make some stuff up. Keep the fail rolling, it's getting hilarious.

Metfanant1060d ago

@FrigidDARKNESS...

so you're saying that the HSA foundation website is lying?? Because I clearly see Sony listed as a member...

pyramidshead1060d ago (Edited 1060d ago )

This was some epic ownage. I brought this up in another thread too :P.

Sony even appear under the contributors section of the members list ;).
http://gyazo.com/ffce0418e7...
http://gyazo.com/e70b9affee...
http://gyazo.com/bacbcf8e22...
http://gyazo.com/748226d17b...
http://gyazo.com/71ed425b09...
Here's a beginners guide on how frigid is wrong :P

ABeastNamedTariq1060d ago

GOT 'EM!

Lol..but seriously I applaud you for putting him in his place.

+ Show (4) more repliesLast reply 1060d ago
Hicken1060d ago

You've been spamming this comment around all over, knowing full well it was a lie.

Why?

JulieBurgos011060d ago SpamShow
GameCents1060d ago

off topic. Hicken. Real classy, to lose a PM debate and then block me before I can reply. LOL.

At least stop tracking me and replying to my every post then.

fsfsxii1060d ago

@gamecents
Would you stop being a douchebag for a frikkin day?? Does it itch not being able to troll or being a douche??

GameCents1060d ago

fsfs, yes it does, how'd you know?

Hicken1060d ago

Yes, I blocked you.

You bored me.

You kept using the same tired excuse, calling someone narrow-minded while being narrow-minded, yourself. You ignore what doesn't suit you, rather than giving rational explanations for why it doesn't affect your claim.

"Debating" with people who can't cope with the facts you present them is boring, so I blocked you.

Don't really care if you think you've "won." I'd already said I was done, anyway, so shouldn't you consider it "classy" that I deigned to respond to your remarks following that, anyway?

No, of course not.

And let's dispense with the false claims, while we're at it. You can likely list on one hand how many times I've replied to a comment of yours over the past month. MAYBE two hands. Which says nothing, given how many comments I've made in that time.

Whatever.

+ Show (2) more repliesLast reply 1060d ago
PSVita1060d ago

Just pack up and call it a call it a day.

JP13691060d ago

"Just as the PS4 has 8GB of high-speed memory that is shared by the CPU and GPU, the Xbox One, by virtue of being based on the same APU heterogeneous system architecture (HSA), will probably be the same. In short, while there are small hardware differences between the consoles, they will ultimately have very similar performance characteristics. The PS4, with its one, big block of fast RAM, and bigger GPU, probably has the edge."

http://www.extremetech.com/...

AnteCash1060d ago

LOL i like when they say "bigger" GPU instead of faster.

nirwanda1060d ago

@antecash that's because it isn't faster it has more cu units so it can do more calculations but technologically the xbone is faster as it has the greater mhz.
Bigger is probably wrong too as they different things on the dies like ram etc.

extermin8or1060d ago (Edited 1060d ago )

@nirwanda ok so both consoles are running the cpu cores at 1.6GHZ, yet the FCC passed the ps4 and said it had a maximum overall clock speed of... 2.7tGHZ(i think?) xb1 is running the gpu at 856MHZ(roughly i might be a few units out.) So the PS4's going by the FCC thing must be running at 950MHZ so actually he's right the gpu on the ps4 is faster aswell as having more CU units :p even if the extra speed is tiny ;) Someone tell the other troll btw that they are both running jaguar cores...not kaveri, kabini or any other core type :p

CrusRuss1060d ago

@exterminator the FCC thing talking about the PS4s MHz was referring to frequency of the ram, it had nothing to do with the CPU core speed. This was covered a few weeks ago in the n4g comments at the time. So pls don't misrepresent that article as a fact for something it is not.

Ju1059d ago

I'm actually curious if the XBox is HSA in it's core. Because to the best of my knowledge it isn't. No address sharing between GPU and CPU and no UMA memory either - at least not the same way. It's SoC differs quite a bit from APUs today, so I am wondering if this even is derived from one. What we know so far it isn't. Internal bus layout, memory interface(s) etc. is quite different. eSRAM might be something AMD might add, but so far no APU has eSRAM (neither today nor on the roadmap). MoveEngines are completely custom to the XBox and probably won't fit in anywhere. The GPU seems to have a direct interconnect to the CPU, but it looks like the GPU will be heavily dependent on eSRAM.

+ Show (2) more repliesLast reply 1059d ago
pyramidshead1060d ago

they've been a member since January and are listed on the members list. It's funny though... I don't even see microsoft's logo :P

NarooN1060d ago

Kaveri won't be in any of the consoles. Kabini is not inside of the PS4. Both of these new consoles have Jaguar cores. You're a terrible troll.