id Software cofounder says backlash surrounding Xbox One policies not necessarily justified, believes the future will be fully digital.
I disagree. Consumers acted out against the policies of a company that they thought where harmful, wasn't Xbox One's draconian DRM itself unjustified? Well at the very least it was bad news and needed to go. Besides, no matter what anyone says it's a consumers right to voice their opinions and concerns in regards to a companies products and services.
I agree with zerocrossing. The public reacted to being treated like idiots. There was NO witch hunt here. It was micro$oft that brought all this upon themselves. They tried to force DRM. They participated in the NSA's prism project. They are forcing you to take the kinect spy camera. They are charging 100.00 more for a vastly inferior piece of hardware. I don't feel sorry for micro$oft. They made their bed now the consumers are making them sleep in it.
"The public reacted to being treated like idiots." The public ARE idiots.
@cold fire Don't generalize Not all people are idiots, they're increasing, but still
@fsfsxii This isn't about generalizations. Of course not all people are idiots. It's just that the majority are. Otherwise the world wouldn't be such a fucked up place.
I don't think MS treated anyone like idiots. They just brought out the message wrong in a topic that many people fear, but very few are affected. It might have been too soon, but imagine if a similar backlash would have happened when MS released the original (and first) Xbox and people would have complained how they don't have broadband and MS was forced to switch it out with a dial up modem! We would have been held back for half a decade, and we just got held back again in the stone age of physical discs!
Actually M$ expected people to be smarter than the idiots they are. "Always online!=??? DERP DERP DERP wat about Antarctica!! Wanna sell my used games!!!"
@Nuke and John - The fact of the matter is, NOT everyone has a stable internet connection. Even those with the most stable internet connection can experience downtime for MORE than 24 hours. So if you had an Xbone, you would not be able to play any games during that time. Anyone that doesn't see that this could be an issue is blind, and needs to stop drinking MS' Koolaid. The difference with the original Xbox is that nobody expected anything from MS. They had NO fanbase, and built it up slowly over three years, and gave up on the Xbox and moved to 360, with an XBL user base. The Xbone policies were a big F U to all those who buy used games, or sell their games, and anyone who lives in an area without a stable internet connection (A LOT OF PLACES). It isn't just about 'MURICA, and even in 'murica there are places with bad connections. @Carmack - Developers and publishers really have no valid opinion in this argument, because the majority of them are the ones that want such a system to be implemented so they can make more money from gamers than they are already. The consumers have to buy the games, THEY SHOULD have the right to sell those games on if they want to.
Cuz carmack believes in the same future as Microsoft. If u hate used physical games and love subscription based model, than sure, u'll love Microsoft's policies. As long as ur not the consumer.
So consumers moving to protect themselves an their rights is unjustified? No dude.
Everyone keeps talking about selling used games, but MS never confirmed that you couldn't. They threw out a few different possibilities, nothing was ever confirmed, and then everyone freaked out and they changed the policy before they ever even announced how it was going to work. The only thing that was 100% confirmed was the 24 hour internet check in. You guys bitched so much we never got to hear how everything else was going to work.
@unholyone cuz microsoft's policy is one step closer for consumers to lose their freedom. if u let corporations implement these things so far, it becomes irreversible. it was evident that there was some form of restriction and control on how the used games was handled. if this wasnt the case, than microsoft was so retarded they dont know how to make a simple communication. which i dont think microsoft is retarded at all. people freaked out cuz microsoft couldnt confirm anything, and from what was confirmed, microsoft was anti-used games. multiplayer in the future wont be free anymore. again, if the fanboys complained instead of justifying it, MP would be free across all platforms.
@people saying people are idiots: You are correct, and I can prove it using MOVIES! http://www.youtube.com/watc...
Blocking used games, 24hr check-in, strict DRM...it's f***ing justified.
Carmack = Rage Yeah, sums up why i dont care what he says. He's almost as bad as Randy Pitchford.
"They participated in the NSA's prism project. They are forcing you to take the kinect spy camera. They are charging 100.00 more for a vastly inferior piece of hardware."
Yup no witch hunt here /s
Oh look, Carmack is back to cuddle up with Xbox. What a surprise.
@Unholy One Your correct that Microsoft didn't say that they would ban used games however, games could only be sold at "participating retailers". Which means that Microsoft controls who you sell your games to and how much you can receive from them. If I wanted to give a game as a gift to a friend, trade or sell my copy Microsofts policy would prevent me from doing that. This is the main reason why I didn't support those policies. Motorola RAZR i
i love when people go for an intelligent reply and throw kinect and NSA in it lol,you sound idiotic every time,that is not a lawsuit microsoft wants,i pray to the non existent god most worship and hope they spy on me,the class action lawsuit would be amazing. Vastly inferior? when the xb1 launch title actually actually look good,and most people pretend they wont connect there tv's to there xb1 when the truth is im sure over 70 perfect will,why wouldnt you? xb1 has so many exclusive features on top of a much better launch line up
Why do I get a feeling everything he is saying is pointing to an Xbox exclusive or time exclusive.
You figured that too huh? Well I'm certain MS would want carmack's latest game as an Xbox One exclusive, even if it's only timed.
I am old enough to remember when Doom came out and he was an icon at the time. I think he is a great programmer but all the last games he's made I really didn't like.
"Besides, no matter what anyone says it's a consumers right to voice their opinions and concerns in regards to a companies products and services" And game devs and publishers have a right to protect their product from those who seek to profit from something which they didn't create. The music and movie industry do the same thing but there is no witch hunt there. That's because gamers seem to think they are entitled and whine about something if it doesn't always benefits them.
You know what? the games industry had been doing pretty damn well over the years without DLC and droconian DRM, so don't you be believing it's something we need in order to keep the games industry afloat. So? I honestly don't care when Publishers whine and complain about used games and trade ins taking their cut, EA, Activision, Rock Star, Capcom and many other big publishers aren't in any trouble, yet they feel the need to constantly denounce the 2nd hand market as some criminally fuelled detriment to the industry. All these Publishers stand to gain huge profit from implementing the kind of DRM the Xbox One was being launched with, but at the detriment to consumer rights, and as I'm a consumer guess where my loyalty's lie?
I have every right to sell the things I buy with my money. I don´t go around telling the companies I´ve bought products from, what they can or can´t do with the money I traded for their products so why should devs and publishers be able to tell me what I can or can´t do with the games I legitemally buy? "That's because gamers seem to think they are entitled and whine about something if it doesn't always benefits them." What? Which sound minded gamer or consumer would buy with their hard earned money something that doesn´t benefits him/her? Why do you think that MS had to bendover and change their policies? We consumers hold the power and what we say goes! Do not ever forget that!
Game developers and publishers have the right to protect their product from theft and theft ONLY. Used games are not theft. You can't complain about lost profits when you were not going to gain profits to begin with. How can you lose money you never had? The reason no one is on the movie or music industry is because it's not worth it to resell songs or movies. With all the services available in the movie and music industries that keep costs down, there is no point in trying to resell a 99 cent song. All consumers are entitled to their rights, including the right of first sale. That extends to gaming as well.
If a product is not always beneficial to the consumer, why should they buy it? Seriously, I get that you want to protect the industry from shrinking and losing developers. However, why must the consumer shoulder the burden? It's greedy publishers that don't want to make fair contracts with developers. It's greedy publishers that force unreal timetables on developers and KNOW that when they are releasing some games that they are incomplete. It's publishers that don't support games with adequate PR and advertising and just "cut their losses". It's publishers that refuse to publish creative and innovative titles in pursuit of the coveted CoD throne. With all of that, consumers should pretty much give up the last bit of control that we have in the right to buy, sell, and trade as we wish!?!?
Im not sure how I stand on this. The 24-hour checkin made perfect sense when you include the fact that games were going to be installed directly to the hard drive. It was a transparent way of handling game installs without the need for CD-Keys. Something the majority of all PC games do to try and curb piracy. DRM... is not that big of an issue if you are pushing digital sales and installs to a hard disk. They have to have some way of protecting intellectual property from theft, and if its not software that spans multiple systems at once its reasonable. People seem to forget that all digital services have DRM minus GOG.com. Its frickin called Digital Rights Management for a reason. GOG doesnt because the games they offer are so old that it makes sense to offer DRM free content to try and make money off something so easily piratable in the first place. As for blocking used games... that was never verified. It was a possibility, but there were other possibilities as well. If the game is installed to the hard disk and digitally linked to your account it makes perfect sense not to resell useless discs. Of course this digital world was upsetting to gamestop and used game resellers as they would be cut out of the picture. Its entirely within the realm of possiblity that Microsoft could have set up a digital used game market where games could be bought and sold at lower prices. There are a ton of possibilities for how this type of system could be set up so I dont want to speculate on how Microsoft would have implemented it. In the end, some possible customers may have been alienated from purchasing the console while others would have benefited from the new policies. That doesn't really matter now since they returned to games running off the disc. All we can do now is speculate on how things MAY have turned out without ever knowing how it may have actually been.
There's no need to justify anything, we all saw how the pre-orders were doing before the removal of DRM on the Xbox one. we saw the numbers, they were horrible and after the removal, the sales went up almost instantly. Self Publish, Indie devs shared their opinion through twitter, forums, official interviews and you know what? Microsoft took the same route as their direct competitors, self publish came to Xbox one. Gamers shared their opinion and it paid off in the end. The Xbox one is looking way better than what it was not too long ago and it’s a good thing, but gamers won’t forget it right away for sure. Plus there’s the more casual crowd like a couple of my friends who are thinking that Online and DRM is mandatory because they saw E3 and nothing else. A Re-Reveal of the Xbox one would have been beneficial to erase the uncertainty consumers are still having towards DRM and such.
Well if they didn't want to be hunted as witches, Microsoft shouldn't have arrogantly started casting fake spells everywhere.
"A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it." Men In Black.
@zero I agree with you as well, and Mr. Carmack is dead wrong here. The complaints were completely justified, because M$ did a horrible job of explaining the benefits, because at the time there were none and they didn't know what was going on themselves or clear answers could have been provided. They were a giant chicken running around with their head cut off. As of today the XB1 has done a much needed 360, but people haven't forgot what was about to happen 3 months ago. What M$ needs to do is come out an reintroduce the XB1 and let the world know those policies are gone and the XB1 will be a more traditional console like the Xbox 360 was. Now I agree with Carmack that digital is the inevitable future, and I'm fine with that, but the PS4 and XB1 aren't the consoles to completely go digital (PS5 and XB2 maybe). Worldwide Internet isn't ready, 500GB HDD aren't enough, and physical games generally cost less than digital copies. Internet speeds aren't good enough around the world to download 10GB+ games on the regular, and even worse data caps will prevent you from downloading games, movies, music, demos, and streaming content as much as you want for the fear of overdraft fees. These consoles need at least 1TB - 2TB HDD to hold all that content on them considering their going to be the media hub for your home. And digital game pricing needs to be more competitive if not cheaper than their physical counterparts as well as be easily accessible from your cloud. "He said it is possible that the government will have backdoors into technology like smartphones and potentially Kinect to track consumers, but "that's pretty much the situation…we just kind of carry on."" That's the dumbest f@#$ing thing I ever heard aka #dealwithit. If you don't stand for something you'll fall for anything. If the government gains this much power over it's people you might as well get ready for all kinds of random search warrants and more from the government using it as an excuse to "protect America better against terrorist threats." And yes laptops and cellphones have cameras, and look what happens to all those devices that have ben hacked. Celebs have nude photos posted all over the internet from hacking phones with cameras, normal people have become victims of identity theft, and people have even been spied on with their laptop cameras. If you're going to do such as thing then you need to make sure your security is top notch, and even then it's not always enough, for thousands of Xbox 360's have been hacked, but M$ has tried to keep things secret.
"As of today the XB1 has done a much needed 360" They did a 180, not a full circle, but I knew what you meant. "Celebs have nude photos posted all over the internet from hacking phones with cameras." Yes, but those are self shots stored on the device. That doesn't really apply to the kinect. "If you're going to do such as thing then you need to make sure your security is top notch, and even then it's not always enough, for thousands of Xbox 360's have been hacked, but M$ has tried to keep things secret." True, everything can be hacked. Hacking is a rather general term to mean making something do what its not intended to do. Although a networked machine is at higher risk. To conspiracy theorists, all I have to ask is why wouldnt you just disconnect from the internet when you arent utilizing it? No internet, no remote hacking... About the 360 being hacked in reference to the kinect, thats not the same thing. They were hacked by a person physically having the device not remotely as would be needed to hack into a kinect video stream. Last time I checked, a kinect isnt uploading a live video stream through a centralized hub. Meaning individual consoles would have to hacked to watch any video, or a backdoor would have to be introduced that would allow remote administration to individual consoles. I honestly believe that while it would not curb conspiracy theorists, it would put a lot of peoples minds at ease if Microsoft came out and said the data transferred between the kinect and the Xbox One was encrypted. To which I say, if the NSA is trying to brute force an encryption for a live kinect video stream for every indivdual console, good luck...
zero your spot on, and either way carmack is out of touch with the current gaming community I mean he brought us rage.
Gamers beyond any consumer group I have ever seen flexed their collective mussels and made MS their bitch. We'll look back at the day MS changed their DRM policy as a day gamers won and capitalism worked. Sure the future will be digital but I'm not paying 60 bones for a game I wont actually own. The problem wasn't what they were doing it was how they were doing it. I never got why they completely removed the features in the first place. If they want to make the DRM option available to gamers who liked the features it offered or wanted to check it out why not just make it a option for people? Why did they have to scrap the entire thing? This whole ordeal has been a complete cluster f*ck on MSs part.
Sorry John , you may hold most truths when it comes to engineering 3d engines and software , or even hardware .... but i'm not going to value your opinion over consumers rights or DRM . Not that long ago , Carmack himself felt constricted and strangled by the restriction coming alongside the very first versions of direct X , (alongside performance issues then) as opposed to open gl . If people didnt oppose it , and MS had their original ways and werent FORCED to involve and take a more suitable path , the pc landscape would be very different
well said Baka, and I respect your recognition to John and not badmouth the man like ignorant kids do around her to almost every gaming icon.
I just look at this guy and don't trust anything he is saying.
On the other hand, if this was Mark Cerny you'd be licking his words.
CoLD FiRE WINS. . . FATALITY.
Licking is an understatement.. Does anyone else think Sony fanboys seem pathetic when they argue and don't believe developers who are obviously neutral , and have been in this industry for decades?
I agree with Carmack on this one. The hole Xbox One DRM was taken way out of proportion. I blame raged fanboys and specially gaming "journalists". What console gamers fail to understand is that the hole online DRM disk games is arriving sooner or later to consoles... didn't arrive with the X1/PS4, but most likely the generation after the X1/PS4, it will arrive. PC games have already reached that phase. Consoles are going to follow.
Then all the more reason to oppose it . Delaying it one gen behind is always and still good news . Again if Carmack's stance and other devs were that shallow back in the day , Direct X would be crap instead . The so called witch hunt is already helping the Xbox One so far , going from a controversial item to a hot commodity now .
Luke warm commodity.
It's still finally selling in pre orders , as opposed to the slug trail it was going into .
who would disagree with this I wonder.. or perhaps I shouldn't, being here.
"I blame raged fanboys and specially gaming "journalists"." You blame them for what? For not pre-ordering the X1? Oh wait, you have to blame consumers in general for that!
For spreading rumors and misinformation as facts when Microsoft themselves didnt have the policies ironed out. There is enough blame to go around for both Microsoft and gaming journalists alike. Use your brain...
I think the "witch hunt" he is referring to is the fact that despite the DRM reversal - there is still an overwhelming amount of people who simply don't want to give Microsoft a break - ever.
I actually think we understood what you're saying quite well. Delaying the inevitable is exactly what we wanted to do. Those are things we don't want. We said so. It wasn't out of proportion. When the next next gen rolls around, I'll oppose it then too. I'll oppose it until the day when it actually becomes beneficial to me AS A CONSUMER. I don't care what the future is, because it is up to us to make sure that the future is something that we also want, and not what a company/industry wants in order to be able to control it's customers. Do you believe the next next gen will start with the same type of message? Or do you now believe that companies will try and find ways to make a digital future more appealing and beneficial to us? We understood exactly what MS was trying to do. It's not our fault they lacked the PR jib to get public support. It's a hard sell for a reason. I don't care what "features" they brought along with these practices. The idea was just terrible through and through. All the people defending these types of practices should be ashamed of themselves. Never has DRM so restrictive been heralded with open arms by anyone in the history of gaming. But when MS does it it's beneficial? Yeah OK then. What I don't get is why all you Xbox fans don't get all over MS about removing some of the features they associated with the DRM. All of a sudden they became important. Before the 180, the Xbox fan's voice was hardly heard outside the trolls. Now you're blaming us for their removal. Why not put the pressure on MS to actually get them back. MS had some good features before the 180, and they weren't strictly tied to DRM.
Calling this a "witch hunt" is ridiculous, not to mention disrespectful to those who lost their lives in actual witch hunts.
Disrespectful - lol, ok, you take the cake!
That's like saying anyone who uses word "bomb" is disrespectful to anyone that has ever died from an bomb.
That's like saying calling something "sweet" is disrepectful to anyone who's died from diabetes.
Was the article that said PS4 would "crush" the X1 disrespectful to anyone who has ever been crushed to death?
Need I mention the public's common usuage of the word "nazi"
The point is that no one is "hunting" the Xbox One down. Microsoft screwed itself over. That's not a "witch hunt." Please, open a history book.
Ill just drop this here for you FateoftheGame http://dictionary.reference... In the context it was intended it fits. A LOT of people were looking for something to bash Microsoft with a every turn. Just read the comments on N4G for every pro-xbox one article. I rest my case.
Hell, why not go ahead and compare Microsoft to Jesus Christ or Martin Luther King, then? Great men who were wrongly killed - just like Microsoft. The reality is that people who call this a "witch hunt" are simply butthurt about Microsoft's terrible PR campaign and the resulting chaos.
Sounds like the exact thing a WITCH would say....
I doubt the X1 floats. We could test to see if it weighs as much as a duck I guess. If it does I guess we could use it as a flotation device before we burn it at the stake.
The hate brigade took over.. None of it was justified.. And virtually all of it is just bs by (I hope) kids that are pissed off at what they don't understand.. I love how draconian gets thrown around in virtually every post.. Its like most of you are just reading from a script.. Or people all talked how they got slammed and booed at e3. No they didn't, we all watched the reveal and the e3 presentation.. Applause, no boos. A small vocal portion of gamers want their opinions projected as the will of all gamers.. When its faaaar from the truth
"A small vocal portion of gamers..." You got proof of that? Or are you basing it on the fact that YOU disagree, and think most others do? You know what contradicts you? Your beloved Microsoft considered that "minority"- or the income they represent, anyway- significant enough that they changed the policy those people were up in arms about. Had it really been such a small issue, why would Microsoft bend to it? Oh, and "draconian" is used because IT FITS. Guess that's a bit difficult for some to grasp, though. People understood perfectly well, by the way. They were given all the same information as you, and came to a conclusion that they felt was most beneficial to them as consumers. I'd ask if you couldn't see the dangers in allowing what Microsoft wanted to do, from a consumer's standpoint. But that would yield a boring, predictable response in line with your love for Microsoft. Had Sony tried the same thing... yeah, I'd be putting my PS4 money toward a gaming PC or something.
That's not what Raylan would say http://www.google.com.au/se...
I'm so sick of the argument that Laptops and Phone have cameras in them, the difference is, they are able to be turned on and off, Kinect is always listening. My laptop and phone work just fine when those features are disabled, dial a number on my phone doesn't require me me to turn on the camera portion and wave my hands around in the air to use it, it doesn't potentially video tape me and record my conversation either, and it damn sure doesn't use that info to target ads at me.
And I'm sick of ignorance.. For the 16th million time.. You can turn kinect off.. It just need to be plugged in to the console.. Logic dictates that there is more to the box then a camera.. Perhaps the WiFi receiver? But paranoia is the only reason to think ms is spying on you and that's why it needs to be connected. Grow up.. And again, do some fkn research.. This topic has been beaten to death yet some of you refuse to accept it
And it will be beaten to death a thousand more times! The question still arises, why then would it need to be plugged up!? How people are so quick to disprove a situation even though Microsoft has been caught with their hands in the cookie jar, on more than one occasion is beyond me. And research is there to back that up! Just because someone wants a camera that watches them with there thumb up their crack, automatic mean the majority want that same experience! @narc This is not specifically directed at you! The truth of the matter is, there may be actual people who would actually find a use for that type of experience.
Hell.. Look how quick you are to forget what I JUST said.. Its included with every console and not sold separately.. The obvious reason is there is more in the kinect casing then a camera.. System level functionality.. To save space in the Xbox itself for cooling reasons.. Care to ignore that one more time?
It wasn't ignored! The fact are as is! If you chose to use certain features, that doesn't automatically make you the majority! But should that automatically make your console inoperable? No it shouldn't, but yet it does, Concerning the casing, you know this how!? Or is this some more PR. BS. that is bing fed to people? The camera shouldn't automatically disqualify you from using a $500 gaming console! Plain and Simple, The majority aren't buying it for the camera anyway.
Something caught my eye in your post! Why would anyone put a WiFi reciever in Kinects instead of in the console casing!? Without it or, in the event the Kinects breaks they have effectively rendered the console useless! So tell me again why someone would do that? Either way it makes Microsoft look bad.
@n4rc And for the 17 million time supposedly the CAMERA portion can be shut of but the Xbox is still listening,sorry Microsoft has done so many 180's until the thing is out and we see it for ourselves I don't believe them. Logic dictates? What you are saying doesn't make any sense, using your "logic" is like saying a computer wouldn't work if a printer (another peripheral device) wasn't hooked to it, oh it will work if it's turned off but it has to be hooked up or your computer us useless.
@n4rc It doesn't turn off. You just don't have to use it, unless for certain commands. Microsoft lied that they were part of PRISM. Then they were exposed as being part of it and lied about it. It isn't paranoia. It is Microsoft's history. They lie a lot and do it all to benefit themselves. They act like trying to please the customer isn't what makes products sell. Logic dictates that they aren't to be kept on their word. Logic dictates that you don't act as if you are above other peoples intelligence by using the assumption that the Kinect has more then just the Kinect inside of it, because all we know about it is that it is just the Kinect. That is an assumption. You should do some research yourself. You are exceptionally rude when you use nothing but assumptions for your arguments with more leaning towards them being false then true.
lajme24.org/?p=2411 so apparently you've never heard of these things-_-