Submitted by MattS 728d ago | opinion piece

Polygon's Dragon's Crown review; do you people want games to be art or not?

Digitally Downloaded writes: " can't say any of the following chain of events surprised me. Dragon's Crown gets released, and gets a positive write up from IGN, Gamespot and other sites who see it as their duty to simply tell audiences whether a game is fun or not.

Polygon takes the game, and because Polygon has a slightly more academic bent to it, the writer charged with reviewing the game decides that the objectification that is rampant in the game and not really debatable by anyone who understands what "objectification" means, gives the game a lower score.

Kaboom." (Dragon's Crown, Industry)

Aery  +   728d ago
Please, don't give too much importance to the opinion of one web site (polygon). There are a LOT of better web sites out there, don't waste your time on a dull review.

Edit : I always respect any opinions, but the Polygon review is really bland. Take a look at this one, it's a lot better review:
#1 (Edited 728d ago ) | Agree(19) | Disagree(5) | Report | Reply
HammadTheBeast  +   728d ago
There's also the fact that Polygon was given 700 k to fund a documentary from MS, and they've given every major PS exclusive in the past 3 years below average scores.

And they're nitpicking, it's an art style which fits the game, it's a design choice and preference.
XabiDaChosenOne  +   728d ago
When you openly accept hundreds of thousands of dollars from a company, you should not be allowed to be viewed as a credible source for critiquing the products of the respective companies competition. If you want to be viewed as an unbiased party than you should not be receiving any handouts from neither competitor. Polygon should just rename their site "Official Xbox Magazine 2"
dedicatedtogamers  +   727d ago
@ Kobe357

I'll take "What is journalism", Alex, for 500. And it's the Daily Double!!!

Sadly, modern game "journalism" has no clue, and I agree with what you said.
Ezz2013  +   728d ago
the more important question is :
why do you care about Polygon in first place ?!
Aery  +   728d ago
I *really* agree with you.
sdozzo  +   728d ago
Thank you.
CrossingEden  +   728d ago
sorry but there's a difference between great original conceptual art, the female from journey is an example of an artistic character, a character who has ridiculously big tits that flap around from even the smallest amount of movement is both overdone, unoriginal and just plain generic, there's a reason these things are parodied while games like bioshock infinite and the last of us are getting unending praise http://www.youtube.com/watc...
#3 (Edited 728d ago ) | Agree(1) | Disagree(20) | Report | Reply
Hicken  +   728d ago | Well said
Unoriginal? Generic?

What other games have a similar art style?

Oh, only the ones done by the same artist.

It's an exaggerated style that works for Kamitani's games, and it's not as if it's limited to female characters as you imply.

Also... your entire comment is just bad. There's a difference between great original conceptual art... and what? Why are the only periods in your comment within the hyperlinks?

And the games you mention don't get praise so much for their art style, but for their characters, story and gameplay. If anything, THEIR artistic styles are more generic and indicative of typical Western design than anything; as I said before, you'll find Kamitani's design ONLY in games he's worked on, which means it's far from generic or overdone.

But, by now, I don't think anybody expects you to know what the hell you're talking about when it comes to Japanese games.

And BECAUSE everyone knows how clueless you are in this arena, it begs the question: why are you even here?
CrossingEden  +   728d ago
A.sexy witches with a revealing outfit and a pointy hat is a cliche, uninspired generic design, for example
B.Nice use of ad hominem and being a grammar nazi, especially when a comment on the internet is not in any way shape or form representative of one's actual skill at writing like say, an essay
C.Bioshock infinite, The Last of Us, Walking Dead, and Journey all got praise for their portrayal of women as well as their art styles
D.I play many japanese games, I just don't praise every new jrpg as the messiah of gaming and play the ones that do new things, like say dark souls or still, legend of zelda, excuse me for not getting excited about games like this
or get excited about yet another anime rpg that tries nothing new
E.Glad to know that I am so popular on this site to the point that people who don't agree with me aren't mature enough to use the IGNORE button but feel the need to reply to each and every one of my posts, the same type of people who turn around and say "don't like it, don't read it" -_-
kwiksilver99  +   728d ago
@ hicken
can't argue with that.
games should be reviewed for what they are,
instead of trying to find some deep inner meaning relating to sociology,anthropology etc and be up for scrutinization owing to one's insecurities(real or pseudo)
its a game,tell us how it plays,if its fun,gameplay mechanics & online breakdown if any,make sure there are no spoilers,keep it civil with reasons to back up one's statements.
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XabiDaChosenOne  +   728d ago
@Crossingeden So Hicken specifically ask that you quote:" Name another game with a similar art style" and you post links to various party city costumes? Nice strawmen buddy.
cyguration  +   728d ago
There were women in Journey?

I thought they were genderless?
Inception  +   727d ago
Yup, it's officialy genderless and it's funny how crossingeden said there's a 'women' in Journey.
BlaqMagiq24  +   728d ago
Wow you're basically saying we're immature for not hitting the IGNORE button but your generalization of a game because of a woman with big tits makes you look mature? This and your generalization of JRPGs that you haven't even played makes you one of the most immature on here.
AznGaara  +   727d ago
Agreed. Lets look at JRPGs. Keyword there. From Japan. He also points out Anime. Also from Japan. Shocker! A Japanese genre uses artstyle popularized / famous in Japan?!?! Omfg!!!!

Art is art sir (CrossingEden). It doesn't have to be "classy" or "emotionally investing" to be art. A dot in a center of a blank canvas is as much art as Starry Starry Night.
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BlaqMagiq24  +   727d ago
Well said AznGaara
Hicken  +   727d ago
A. NONE of that has to do with games. Elizabeth's design isn't anything special. It's pretty typical for the period of time Bioshock is supposed to be set in. Same for Ellie, Tess, and every character in The Walking Dead. Same for Chloe and Elena from Uncharted. All rather generic designs.

B. It's not being a grammar Nazi. It's trying to understand your comment more easily. You use a comma for everything. Makes it difficult to tell the difference between when you list things, and when you're expressing a separate idea. And that first idea isn't even complete. "sorry but there's a difference between great original conceptual art," should be followed with... something, ANYTHING. A "difference between" has to be BETWEEN things. But you only list ONE thing; that's what I was getting at.

You should notice that I NEVER attack people for grammar; as a writer, English major, and fan of language in general, one of the things I learned in linguistics(a study of language) is that grammar is just a set of rules that makes it so we can understand a person's meaning. The rules you use don't matter; so long as you USE rules, your grammar is fine. (Note, there are often "official" grammatical sets and pronunciation rules for some languages; American English's version is called "newsspeak.")

C. Those games all got praised for the CHARACTERS, not the artistic design of the characters. They ALSO got praised for overall art direction. The two things were not intrinsically connected. The characters of Journey, by the way, don't have genders.

D. Nevermind "yet another;" you judge every JRPG by its cover. You lump Tales in with Drakengard, with NO idea about the details or gameplay. What you don't like is anime-style artwork, which is fine; you don't have to. But you automatically dismiss EVERY game that has anime art as being the same. There's no point in hiding it: YOU KNOW NOTHING ABOUT THE GAMES.

E. You're not popular. Popularity denotes someone who others like, like to emulate, etc. Your reputation is notorious, which carries a considerably more negative connotation. In this case, you're notorious for trolling JRPGs due to their art styles. You're notorious for not knowing what you're talking about.

Let's not talk about maturity, shall we? You go into articles about games you have NO interest in and slam them for no reason and with no knowledge about them; that hardly speaks of a level of maturity I'd want to boast of.
iceman06  +   727d ago
I get your point. However, your idea of "generic" is tainted by you just seeing "ridiculously bid tits that flap around." Have you seen the backgrounds, other characters? Or, do you just object to the size of the breasts and their physics? Had the Mona Lisa looked like a typical Playboy playmate of the month would it still be a work of art or just generic? Personally, I can see why people might find the witch objectionable. However, if I were a reviewer and being as objective as possible, I couldn't honestly look at this game and say that it is generic. The art style has character and originality written all over it. What I could do is point out my objection to the focus of the art or point out that I couldn't be objective because of the content.
Aceman18  +   727d ago
i guess you find japanese anime totally offensive huh Crossing?

there is nothing wrong with the art in this game, devs are free to express their vision any damn way they please. i'm glad this game doesnt have some bland look like other games out.

also polygon site sucks.
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Chaostar  +   728d ago
Was the problem really with the objectification of women or was the problem that the game is Playstation exclusive?

Polygon is getting a reputation.
InTheLab  +   728d ago
I'm pretty sure a woman reviewed it at Polygon and gave it a low score.

The same thing happened over at the escapists and no one said a word.

I'm sure Polygon is on the MS payroll but in this particular case, I think it's something else.
Chaostar  +   727d ago
Fair enough :) not making any accusations myself just observing what I hear people say about the site.
sdozzo  +   728d ago
You really think they give low scores just because it's PS. C'mon.
AznGaara  +   727d ago
My main problem with this review is this paragraph:

"Most of the women in the game are barely clothed, with heaving chests, backs twisted into suggestive positions, some with their legs spread almost as wide as the screen. They're presented as helpless objects, usually in need of rescue. It's obvious, one-sided and gross."

That's the statement that irritates me the most. Would the same thing apply (one-sided and gross) to Peach because she's helpless against Bowser and is in need of rescue from Mario? Or does that not count because Peach isn't "barely dressed" with balloon sized breast? Will this same argument come up EVERY time she reviews a game that has that scenario in it? Because she obviously felt strong enough about to put so much emphasis on this title, what about future titles?
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InTheLab  +   728d ago
I hate it when these random critics insert their politics into reviews....
Williamson  +   728d ago
I dont really care what crap websites have to say, with polygon being one of them.
#6 (Edited 728d ago ) | Agree(10) | Disagree(1) | Report | Reply
Chrono  +   728d ago
Fanboys can't deal with opinions.
Brucis  +   728d ago
Polygon has the right to have their opinion and we have the right to say it's a shitty one.
#7.1 (Edited 728d ago ) | Agree(19) | Disagree(3) | Report | Reply
trouble_bubble  +   728d ago
And the female reviewer can't deal with charachters that have bigger boobs than she does. Worth a paragraph or two apparently, and once again Polygon cant see the forest from the butts, err, trees lol. Oh Danielle
Master-H  +   728d ago
Polygon.. it's like Katuko , but more MS-biased, should be removed from Metacritic so it would lose the little-to-no relevance it has. always with it's crappy poor reviews , and controversy stirring articles, what a s**t site.
plmkoh  +   728d ago
The irony about these feminazis who are quick to leap on the 'objectification' band wagon, is that the big 'slut walk' movement last year sought to demonstrate that woman can look like whatever they want but remain strong and equal. Here we have a game where the female characters are equally strong as the male characters despite their depictions.

If anything, this review has pulled gender equality 1 step backwards. Thanks polygon, always knew you were bigots.
MattS  +   727d ago
Apparently you don't understand the difference between "sexism" and "objectification."

The Polygon review wasn't saying that women were being treated unequally. In fact the Polygon review quite explicitly said that the author was impressed that the female characters have agency. The problem was that they were also objectified.

The flaw in the review was in not mentioning the men are also objectified. It's a problem in Dragon's Crown across the board.

People like you shouldn't be commenting on feminist debate. Go learn something about it before you go stinking up the place with your ignorance.
plmkoh  +   727d ago
Sigh here we go... commenting on the feminist debate would be out of topic and so my comment was about the awry nature of even thrusting social/political/what's kosher etc onto a video game issue that quite clearly is no issue. Which is why I'm pointing out that someone who has beef with society is using something completely something unrelated to vent their spleen.

But the "problem was that they were also objectified. " right?

Why thank you, I don't know what's riled you up, (hell I don't even know if you're for or against the review), but why are the characters 'objectified'. Oh yes that's, right because they are caricatures, if the fact that naming each character based on their class wasn't a big red face slapping sign that they are bound to be exaggerated and over the top I don't know what is...hell the characters don't even have any lines other than a few grunts.

No, 'people' like me shouldn't be commenting on the feminist debate, nor should this review thrust some sort of agenda. It's a video game that's designed to titillate the player, but apparently some people just get carried away with their bitterness.

Seems like something you didn't understand.
MattS  +   727d ago

Go read the article. People need to stop telling other people to shut up if they choose to hold opinions about games that take games more seriously than brain-dead entertainment for brain-dead and oversexed teenagers and manchildren.

If you believe that games can be art then you can't turn around and tell people to shut up if they choose to have a feminist discussion over games. If you went to a university and started telling everyone in your class, as well as your lecturers and tutors to shut up because they've said something you either don't comprehend or don't like - I suspect the former since you weren't able to tell the difference between sexism and objectification - then you'd be failed out before you got through your first week.

You don't like feminist discussions around games? You stop reading them. It's your problem, not the author's.
Hicken  +   727d ago
"The Polygon review wasn't saying that women were being treated unequally."

"The flaw in the review was in not mentioning the men are also objectified."

The second statement implies that the first is false.

That the review essentially treats the objectification of the men as nonexistent indicates that there is an issue of sexism. Or, at the least, that the reviewer WANTS there to be an issue of sexism.

There is objectification of both sexes, but you have to wonder if there's an agenda when the only objectification mentioned in the review is that of the females.

"Nevermind that the men look just as ridiculous; the women looking this way is obviously a problem."

That sort of thinking is the real problem.
izumo_lee  +   727d ago
I don't get why all this BS over someone's art style who has been doing this way of drawing for years. Why is people focusing on the female characters but they have no problem with the male characters that are also exaggerated?

Are people so immature in this day & age when a drawing....A FREAKING!!! DRAWING!!! is making people batsh*t upset. Do we ignore all the sexualization we see everyday in our lives in TV or film or even magazines that are often way more distasteful? But nooooo a drawing of an exaggerated women is much more harmful to society.

If these people do any sort of research that in history females are often sexualized greatly in culture. We have the Venus de milo, Aphrodite emerging naked from a clam shell, etc. So do we criticize other cultures that depict the female as sex objects too?

From what I've read Dragon's Crown is a fun multiplayer romp that harkens to those old school coin op arcade machines of the past. And if a characters art is preventing you to enjoy the overall quality of the game than you are in the wrong business.
MattS  +   727d ago
"Do we ignore all the sexualization we see everyday in our lives in TV or film or even magazines that are often way more distasteful? But nooooo a drawing of an exaggerated women is much more harmful to society."

Actually those things are a constant topic of academic debate and social criticism.

"If these people do any sort of research that in history females are often sexualized greatly in culture. We have the Venus de milo, Aphrodite emerging naked from a clam shell, etc. So do we criticize other cultures that depict the female as sex objects too?"

You seem to think that just because humans used to do something it's still appropriate to do it now.

I take it you have a 12-year old wife, then. How's the 7th kid treating you? I hope you sent your tithes to the king and church this month!

"From what I've read Dragon's Crown is a fun multiplayer romp that harkens to those old school coin op arcade machines of the past. And if a characters art is preventing you to enjoy the overall quality of the game than you are in the wrong business."

And from what I've read in your comment you clearly didn't bother to read my article before leaving this comment. It's people like you that go around trying to shut down conversations (oh it's all just entertainment!) that you don't like that are preventing games from being treated as art.

If you believe games are art, then start treating them like art and be willing to participate in conversations that go beyond "hurr dis 'ere game is funnay! Haw haw"
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izumo_lee  +   727d ago
I take it that you didn't realize my comments were directed towards the reviewer that has caused this uproar & not at your article. And as you can tell that i find it troubling that someones art (George Kamitani) is being looked at in a bad way just cause he over exaggerated the female & male anatomy.

I did read your article & you made some interesting points that should be discussed. We have so many people that want games an industry we gamers love with a passion (sometimes too much) be considered an art form but we have people out there causing an unnecessary uproar over someones drawing style.

As a side note i found your response to be unprofessional considering you are in the gaming media. If you are gonna insult someone leave the family out of it. Like i said you clearly mistaken my post to be a disagreement to your article which it is not.

Look I'm a big fan of the Japanese art style from anime to manga & something like the drawing in Dragon's Crown is no big deal in my opinion. I'm just upset that the Japanese has been creating art work like this for years yet here in the west many of us look at it in disgust. It shouldn't have been an issue but i kinda knew it was gonna be when i first saw the images of this game. Western media i have seen tend to look at anime style games in a lesser light compared to the more realistic ones especially if there are over sexualized female characters which are there clearly for 'fan service' & i exaggerate the word fan.

For whatever reason we in the west tend to make a big deal over nothing. Art is art right?
AznGaara  +   727d ago
You know in Japan... Where this was from... I bet this isn't a problem.

Anyways back to the article at hand. Art IS art. That is that. You're trying to say that they're only two conditions in which something is art: provides social commentary or spark conversation. That isn't the case. Art is so much more than that. It CAN be "fun" it can be "playful" it can also be "dark" or "emotionally engaging." You can try to dig deep into a meaning of a piece but sometimes it just is. Games are already art, in my opinion, whether it be Dragon's Crown or Journey.
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MattS  +   727d ago
You totally missed the point of this article. I never denied that games like Dragon's Crown be art. I was pointing out that the toolbags of the Internet don't seem to understand that if games are art, then if someone wants to be offended because they saw objectification in a game, then they've got every fucking right to argue that.

But noooo, those same toolbags take to the comments and Twitter to abuse the critic and try and shut down the conversation through sheer anger and violent language.

Those people can fuck off and get out. Games industry as an artistic medium is better off without them.

Still, at least you read it. Better than most of the other people who have commented here.

Having the attention to stay on topic seems to be an issue for N4G peeps. ADHD?

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