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Submitted by PsyphonD 859d ago | news

Fez creator on Xbox One self-publishing change: “the whole thing is just so goddamned reactionary”

Fez creator Phil Fish is skeptical about Xbox One’s new self-publishing policy, saying that it’s just a “reactionary” response that feels “disingenuous.” (Phil Fish, Xbox One)

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MariaHelFutura  +   859d ago | Well said
It's true and you only have Playstation and people like me to thank. You're welcome. Without us, MS would have still been arrogantly walking around w/ the mindstate of a Nazi.
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M-M   859d ago | Personal attack | show | Replies(6)
dedicatedtogamers  +   859d ago | Well said
"Reactionary" is correct. Xbox One - at least the gaming side of it - seems hobbled together to grab the early adopters, but what is the long-term plan? Is there even a long-term plan that has gamers' interests at its heart?

The troubling thing is this: what will Microsoft react to next? Apple or Google launching a new "iOS box" for the TV with full DVR, TV streaming, Hulu, Netflix, and apps, and then Microsoft shifts the Xbox One's focus to that? Kinect motion controls don't take off like they wanted, so they drop any plans for hardcore support (they've already delayed their showcase game, Sports Rivals)?

WHAT IS MICROSOFT'S PLAN? Gaming certainly doesn't seem to be on the top of the list. Even their "reactions" (like this self-publshing) is half-hearted. It's not available now and it won't be available until "some time after launch". What's the profit margin for these indies? Is it 10% cut for Microsoft (like it is for Steam and PSN) or is it the same 70/30 split like it was for indies on XBLA? Will indies be highlighted like they are on Steam on PSN, or will all the games be lumped together like Microsoft has been saying?
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Tctczach  +   859d ago
Oh wow. A feature that they are now putting forward as a major incentive is now being delayed for a while. Sounds familiar....*cough* Gaikai
dedicatedtogamers  +   859d ago | Well said
Yeah. TOTALLY the same thing. Gaikai totally isn't a multi-million dollar collaboration of hardware and software.

It's totally the same thing as the policies - literally, nothing but policies - that are restricting indie devs from self-publishing on Xbox One.

Indies are self-publishing NOW on PS4. There are games in development NOW for PS4 that are self-published, so why can't Microsoft allow self-publishing NOW? Why do they have to wait until some undetermined time after launch (and then we wait several months more for the first games to trickle in)?
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dudeOplenty  +   859d ago
Hopefully with Apple, Google, and everyone else under the sun offering free access to streaming content will finally make them take down that rip off policy of hiding these services behind the greedy iron curtain known as xbone gold.
AngelicIceDiamond   859d ago | Trolling | show
DVAcme  +   859d ago | Well said
The sad part is that Microsoft literally doesn't have to lift a finger to allow the indies to self-publish, they just need to establish the policy clearly and allow the indies access to upload. Comparing it to PS4 with Gaikai is ridiculous. Gaikai is a MASSIVE infrastructure and digital rights-intensive endeavor, and I say Sony can take all the time they need to make sure it works as intended when it finally launches. Microsoft's self-publishing policy is all politics, no major changes in infrastructure. They just need to establish the profit margin between developers and Microsoft and allow the indies to publish their games without having to kiss the ass of a major publisher, that's it. Steam and PSN do it, why can't Microsoft? Again they show not only a disconnect from consumers, but their preference to be in bed with major publishers throwing money around than smaller independents who are currently the driving creative force in the industry.
MELMAN26  +   859d ago
Let's be real here guys, are you really THAT into indie games or has this interest just become the latest trend. Personally I will play 1 or 2 indie games a year, and to be honest, they were not worth it.

I understand that indie developers have their place but for me, if they are not at least on a level of journey, trials hd, limbo, etc......I will will not be downloading.

I hope that Sony and Microsoft figure out a way to separate the quality of these games. Microsoft separated them correctly on xbox live
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nosferatuzodd  +   859d ago
yep that's Microsoft big problem they want to be everyone has soon has someone come up with something and get some success they drop what ever they're doing just to follow its the greed in them they're the only company like that stay in your lane and do what you do best but no they want to everything they see others do greed man i tell you
Jdoki  +   858d ago

I would say 50%+ of my gaming is Indie titles. Although I imagine that's higher than the average and most of it is on PC.

But you're right about this being a bit of a trend. Indie self-publishing is just the latest skirmish ground for the never ending console wars.
MWong  +   858d ago
@ DVAcme + 1 bubble well said

There is a huge difference between the PS4 and Gaikai compared to the XBone and self-publishing. One is technology the other are silly policies. Microsoft's self-publishing policy is all politics, called greed.
NewMonday  +   858d ago
the only thing that will settle this argument is actually seeing more Indy games on the XBone, Sony was talking the talk but what proved their commitment was actually showing many Indy games at the reveal and E3 like the Witness, Outcast, OctoDad Transistor and others.
Reibooi  +   858d ago
The thing about this whole thing is how much MS cares. As Mr. Fish said it's reactionary nearly everything they are doing these days is not planned it's reactionary. This is leading tons of people to continue to tread carefully when it comes to the Xbone.

I want to know is as mentioned above do they care? What I mean by that is Sony clearly cares about the Indies this gen and cares enough to showcase them just as much as their big AAA games in some cases. This shows more commitment then I think MS is even thinking about. I would love if they are going to put the effort in and really take care of the indies but the way they have been doing things makes it seem like it's just another bullet point on a check list of things they need that others have already. If they are going to bring their a game in regards to indies and self publishing they great but it doesn't seem that way. Time will tell I suppose.
3-4-5  +   858d ago
XB1's long term plan is less gaming and more everything else.

You think they are abondoning all that tech they wanted to use? nope, it will just be used in different ways later on.

Remember the first xbox was gamer focused.

Xbox 360 started out that way but in the past 4 years has moved towards casual friendly and I see the same trend here.

The XB1 system itself might be the Trojan horse that allows this.
Thepharaoh  +   859d ago
I feel like you don't really know the mind state of Nazi because i never saw Microsoft kidnapping and torturing people.Your not funny man quit trying.
GenericNameHere  +   859d ago
Well, the Nazis did think they were the best, and that the rest of the world should be like them. Maybe that's what MHF meant by "mind state of a Nazi"?

Although I did see a Youtube video on Youtube where Hitler did some pretty good things, like being the genius behind the Volkswagen, and lowering smoking rates or something like that.
TongkatAli  +   859d ago
You're taking it literal to deflect his whole point. He is right, Sony started taking in Indies then Nintendo followed and now Microsoft followed and from what i heard from the most parts from the Nintendo and Microsoft community is "Indies suck anyway".

Now its cool to buy them cause everyone is going to get them, LOL!

Everyone is educated on what is a Nazi. You learn that in junior high, now you're patronizing.
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Thepharaoh  +   859d ago
Microsoft never said "Be like us" they were trying to get people to buy their product and I'm not deflecting anything I'm simply saying that you may want educate yourselves on what a nazi is and why it isn't all that clever to compare Microsoft to a group like that.Even before they made their changes they weren't at the nazi level and if you have such a problem with what microsft is then don't buy their products ,quit all your "Micosof ez Eval"
blabbering ,and Don't encourage this Maria troll.

Hey there good job editing so i wouldn't get a notification good thing i came back to look through some of the comments.What? afraid of using that last bubble or do you just like the last word?

Any way just so you know the school system in America is a joke which it has been for a while and considering what maria said i doubt she paid attention during the world war 2 class if he even lives in a country where the schools find that a mandatory subject
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vega275  +   859d ago

i love when fanboys such as yourself make up B.S as that's what was said. I've never heard from 360 fanboys or nintendo that they hate indie games or the dev's. stop lying or back it up.

I heard more from sonyfanboys calling dev's lazy because they found developing on the ps3 hard because of the cell. now because dev's find it easier it's "dev's love sony cause they listen" too bad they didn't with the ps3. something MS did with the 360.

thank you MS for the change in sony's attitude with the ps4.
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Gekko36  +   858d ago

"Well, the Nazis did think they were the best, and that the rest of the world should be like them. Maybe that's what MHF meant by "mind state of a Nazi"?"

Hmmm, That comment is more akin to the Japanese during the invasion of China, the British during the colonial wars and lets not forget the Americans right here right now.

Likening Microsoft's policies to that of war lords and mass genocide is disturbing. Unless of course you are a Scientologist.

NOTE: That crack about Scientology may be considered a slant against a religion but here in the UK Scientology is considered a cult / crackpot organisation.

Back to the point however, Microsoft made an announcement albeit via twitter. I'm sure that further details will be clear come gamescon. So it's best to save the masturbatory rhetoric till after their next conference.
Fireseed  +   859d ago
Thank Playstation?!?!?! Thank Desura. Thank Mojang. Thank the developers passing around software on MS-DOS. Indies did NOT start with Playstation. Indies didn't even start on consoles with Playstation. Having gamers thank Sony for Indies is like thanking a president for the constitution... sure he continues it, but he did not start it.

Heck how could anyone forget William Higinbotham? He created the first video game ever, and it was most certainly what we'd call an indie.
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RememberThe357  +   859d ago
The indie embrace did start on PlayStation though. Thats why MS is changing it's policy. No one is saying PlaySation created the "idie dev," thats conceptually impossible. What they're saying is that you better thank Sony for embracing the indie crowd because if they hadn't MS would have still kept many of those games off their system.

Why is it so hard for fanboys to stop acting like children. You all sit there and act like it's Xbox vs Playstation. What side am I on if I own both?
Fireseed  +   859d ago
Indie embrace began with things like Desura and Steam... sorry to burst your bubble.
nypifisel  +   859d ago
You're being silly. There are no parallel between the PC indie market and the console one. A PC is an open platform, a console isn't. Sony's incentive towards indies forced MS to change their policies. Simple as that. They didn't want Sony to have that competitive edge. So it's not PC vs Consoles, seeing how the two platforms differ so much from each other.
Seafort  +   858d ago
Apart from most of the indie games coming to PS4 are on or will be on PC in the near future.

I definitely know Don't Starve is on PC now as I have it on steam and it was a PC exclusive from Klei like their new game, Incognita.

Mercenary Kings is on steam Early Access atm as well.

So there is some parallels between PC indies and console indies. As they are one and the same.

Desura and steam embraced the indie revolution way before Xbox and Playstation did.

Most if not all the kickstarter games will be accepted onto steam when they are ready to be released.

If MS are so accommodating to indie devs why do we hear all these horror stories from indie devs about how MS treated them?
gamertk421  +   859d ago
I would never thank Maria..or Sony.
Lior  +   859d ago
U forget the biggest platform for indie games are on pc
vega275  +   859d ago
I find it funny that people who never had any intentions on buying the system. Feels like they had any part in the change of MS policies and X1. Screaming and posting "I hate you MS and I'm never buy your console" does change anything nor will you even when they do. So you gets no thanks for being a fanboy.
TomShoe  +   859d ago
It's just so true that MS has been constantly playing catch up to Sony in most key features. As much as XBots would deny this, It's taken so many "Core gamers" pledging to switch to PS4 to get them to do anything at all.

And even one change they could do that they decided not to is going to hurt them the most in the long run. MS already said there's no price drop or removal of Kinect in 2014. That means they might as well give the PS4 a head start similar to the one 360 had.

All the hardcore M$ fans who have stuck with XBL for years can continue to hold on to their Halo, Forza, GoW, and CoD DLC for dear life, but for the rest of us, brand loyalty only goes so far.
Smashbro29  +   858d ago
Yeah, it's Playstation. Not the open platforms like PC or anything.
jiggyteddy  +   858d ago
Maria made a reactionary response as well.

Being a fanboy is one thing, but being an ignorant fanboy is a whole other level. Congratulations on your level down!
en4SHer  +   858d ago

I'd suggest you put more substance into your posts than just what the PS4/X1 fanboy goons want to hear. You're labeling Microsoft with a Nazi mindset, as they are some kind of evil entity, and you're completely contradicting yourself. If someone was a Nazi, they would stay headstrong with their beliefs and plans, taking no criticism from others into account. Microsoft has changed their route because they're listening. While it could be argued that they are doing so because of poor pre-order sales, we still get the same result as gamers--a better console.
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2cents  +   858d ago
@ Maria.

Very nice, thank you. Now would you kindly... Get back under your bridge.
H0RSE  +   858d ago
Somehow you managed to make the ridiculously inaccurate and ignorant comparison of Microsoft to Nazi's, while also gaining over 150 agrees in the process. This alone is evidence of the grossly over-exaggerated hatred of MS and the extreme level of bias that plagues this website.

If you truly think MS is even remotely comparable to the Nazi regime, I suggest you brush up on your history.
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miyamoto  +   858d ago
History does repeat it self

These reactionary moves is exactly what led to the rise and fall of Sega Genesis against Super NES during the 16 bit era to 32 bit era.

This proves M$ is really caught with its pants down.
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Conquerbeard  +   858d ago
Big ol' pat on the back.
showtimefolks  +   858d ago
we the core gaming community/PS gamers are the reason MS had to take many things back and make changes, if it was up to xbox fanboys they would be ok with DRM and here is why

the word CLOUD gives them orgasm so as long as MS uses the word cloud they are ok with everything else
omi25p  +   858d ago
The majority of PS Gamers didnt even know half the stuff that was on the cloud.

I was fine with DRM because i actually took the time to really read up on it. I knew that people complaining about trading in games would be moaning when it came out. I knew how much the cloud improved games.

The only thing i didnt agree with was the fact they were doing it now. DRM isnt worth it when so many people wouldn't be able to use the console because of connection issues.

I liked DRM so im a Xbox fanboy?

Here a little fun fact for you. I preordered the PS4 and the X1 the second the became available. I still have both on preorder.
MacDonagh  +   858d ago
You've just invoked Godwin's Law.

You should be ashamed of yourself because you have ruined any chance of intellectual discourse within the first comment.


*slow clap*
Sony360  +   858d ago
I guess you're also to thank for the new fee on multiplayer then.
omi25p  +   858d ago
Arent you full of your self.

People crying on forums did nothing. Which as a result you did nothing.

Actual fans who didnt preorder it cause the change.

Also The mind state of Nazi?

That gets 195 agrees?

You're saying that MS wanting DRM is the equivalent of the Nazis murdering MILLIONS of Jews. Causing the worst war in history. Killing and butchering whole family's and bringing the whole world to its knees.

You're saying DRM is like that?

What a pathetically moronic and ignorant thing to say. Its takes someone truly deranged to think of that comparison.
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4logpc  +   859d ago
This is the crap that's really making me upset with next gen indie devs.

this guy right here gives Indies a bad name, and I can't stand him.

He is NEVER happy.

I get it...Microsoft is simply reacting to Sony, which hey is probably half true, but instead of still talking crap about Microsoft, move on and make games.

These Indies are getting amazing treatment and honestly if I was a big name publisher I would be little upset that they aren't getting any new benefits, yet they have been following the rules for years now.

Indie developers are getting everything they want/wanted, and they still are complaining. Just be happy you now have yet another platform to publish your game on.
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dedicatedtogamers  +   859d ago
"this guy right here gives Indies a bad name, and I can't stand him. "

If you read the article, it states other indie devs (like the Retro City Rampage guys, Monaco guys, Skulls of the Shogun guys, Super Crate Box guys) all had their suspicions as well.

Add to that list all those former 360-indie devs like Jonathan Blow, the Limbo crew, and Team Meat who all have very stern words to say about Microsoft.

It's not just one guy "giving indies a bad name" or isolated, individual indies complaining for no reason. As Fish pointed out, all Microsoft has right now is words and track record.
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4logpc  +   859d ago
This argument can go either way.

The fact that multiple devs are complaining can help either side.

ive read the articles, ive seen Indie the movie, I look at it from both sides.

Indie Devs were treated just like normal devs. I understand that makes it hard for certain developers and causes problems etc, but it still doesnt change the fact Microsoft reached out and published Super Meat Boy, which wouldnt of gotten nearly as much success if it wasnt for XBLA.

There was a time when I associated Indie with terms like innovative and passionate. Now those words are replaced with knock off and unappreciative.

Indie devs used to preach that they just want to make games because it is their passion and they want it to reach as many people as possible. What happened to those devs?? Because all I see is more and more whining.

Microsoft may of had bad policies because they were treating every developer the same, but Microsoft never shut the down on indies and said you dont belong here.

It is obvious Microsoft has changed their tune. Say its reactionary to Sony, bad PR, whatever you want, it still doesnt change the fact it is changed.

Indie devs are getting royal freaking treatment, and yet a lot of them still complain. I feel like some of them wont be happy unless someone makes their game for them, and they get 100% of the profits.

Next thing you know they will complain that companies even take a cut at all.

The funny thing is, I would bet that a majority of these indies will publish their games on Xbox One when it is all said and done because its freaking free. They would be insanely stupid not to.

I just wish we could get back to games, because at the end of they day thats what matters most. I dont care who makes the game, if it is fun I will play it. I dont care if its Indie, AAA, my neighbor or my mom. Whoever makes good content, will get my money.
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trafalger  +   858d ago
well just like electronic arts they are also trying to improve there image. i think we know certain individuals on these forums get a kick bashing m$ on a daily basis.

ive never seen so much stealth trolling on one forum as i do here.
MariaHelFutura  +   859d ago

I think the phrase you are looking for is "Just deal w/ it"

It's like an abused woman who blames everything and everybody except her husband.

Edit: Women who get abused 90% of the time get mad at people who reference the abuse and concentrate their anger on them versus the abuser. Like you're doing, along w/ many other Xbox fans.
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4logpc  +   859d ago
How you made that association baffles me.

Comparing a woman to an indie developer....try a little harder next time.

People act like Microsoft took all the indie devs into a room and beat them up. Talk to the guys that made Super Meat Boy...they have a very successful career now, and a lot of it is from the success on XBLA.
RememberThe357  +   859d ago
He saying your blaming indies for the fact that MS has treated them poorly and they don't like it.

And no one is acting like MS physically assaulted anyone, just that they're not being genuine. Thats not a bold claim to make when a company changes it's business model as quickly as MS has.

"Too good to be true" is often the case in these situations and I see no issue in pointing that out.
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wtopez  +   859d ago
Comparing game companies to Nazism and gamers to abused and beaten women. What a paragon of class.
omi25p  +   858d ago
So Microsoft is the same as the Nazis Murdering, Gassing and butchering Women Children, Men Entire family's.

Now fans of the X1 are the same as women with Stockholm syndrome? A disorder that causes people to feel a sense of love for people that mentally and/or Physically abuse them.

You truly are a nut job. No i don't mean the in jest. You are literally the most out of touch lunatic i have ever seen on this website.
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staticdash22  +   859d ago
You know the saying that most of our parents should have taught us growing up. "There are repercussions to our actions" Everything we do, and say can be used against us. There are consequences for your policies. That's the nature of business. Sometimes bridges are burned. I really like what Adam Sessler said awhile back. He's really worried how so many people are so into these brands & game systems that they suffer from blind brand loyalty.

How can people accept what these big companies TELL us what's good for us. That's something you have to decide for yourself. We're not forced to just forgive and forget. Some people are just not going to be turned on buy your company anymore and that's okay. I definitely don't blame him. He was treated bad, and that's his right to carry that feeling. Microsoft has to pay the consequences for their previous policies. We;re just going to have to accept that some great games might not be coming to xbox one. That's just one of the negatives to business. You have to deal with PR & the company's image.
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4logpc  +   859d ago
The problem is that these developers still had SUCCESS on the Xbox platform.

Its not like these indie devs went bankrupt and lost all of their possessions. They are now living healthy because of the very platform (as well as others) that they hate.
dudeOplenty  +   859d ago

he has a legitimate reason to be angry with microsoft. he released Fez on xbox, discovered a game-breaking bug but was asked to pay $10,000 (if i remember correctly) to patch it.

what kind of new benefits do big publishers need? they already screw over their employees for millions of dollars - Harmonix with the viacom/EA deal, infinity ward with activision - both being screwed out of their contracted bonuses.

You're doing too much of the "blah, blah, blah" and not enough of rational thinking.
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n4rc  +   859d ago
The fee applies to everyone.. Or it did at the time..

Its his fault for releasing a game with a game breaking bug in the first place.. Or at least doing so knowing full well what it will cost to patch..

It needs to be tested by ms then sent out to every user.. That all costs money and doesn't help ms in the least.

But most of all.. Its there to discourage developers from releasing untested junk to its customers..
vega275  +   859d ago
Althought I agree that some big publishers like EA and activision will and have screwed developers out of money. Doing this also insures that indie games are quality and not a indie game ghetto where a lot of trash games flood the store. Then these same devs start crying bevause their game didnt sell as they wanted.

Also a lot of people are overlooking the fact that this arrogant @ss has insulted gamers and japanese gaming like he's gods gift to gaming. Its only because he's trashing MS is the only reason why people are even siding with him.

He needs to take responsibilty for his game crashing buggy game and his unwillingness to fix it.
barb_wire  +   858d ago

Interesting way of saying things isn't it?.. tsk tsk on him for releasing a game with a game breaking bug..

yet how do you feel about the big companies (Bethesda, Activision or EA) who have all released games either broken straight out of the box or riddled with game breaking bugs..

so using your logic it perfectly acceptable for them to do that since they have the resources to pay for any certification from MS - nevermind the fact that it's the consumer who's taking a hit cause they were too damn lazy to test their product before releasing it to the market.
NeoTribe  +   859d ago
How can the indie move on and make games when they can't yet on xbox? Its not ready. Microsoft reacting to sony isn't half true. Its completely true. Where do you get half? There saying the same thing as the people bitching in the comments. Nobody trust microsofts sneaky bs. If your gf cheats on you are you going to trust her anymore or go find someone else?
Pancit_Canton  +   859d ago
With all the self publishing, Dev kit for all and Mods. You might as well get a freaking PC. At this point, i don't really see the point of owning an Xbone if they offer similar to a PC. Close system is what differentiate the console to a PC.
lastofgen  +   859d ago
They're just options. And it's the expansion of your audience for the games you make that's the point to take away from here.
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elhebbo16  +   859d ago
I'm about to blow your brains out right now... some of us actually like to play on console rather than PC! I know crazy right.
Smashbro29  +   858d ago
But if you can build a PC that takes the same space and uses the exact same controller and it can do everything the console can plus more with cheaper games. Why do it?
Ultr  +   858d ago
So true buddy
lastofgen  +   859d ago
so, what he's really saying is that he'll never be happy with ms again no matter what they do.

first he insults japanese devs and now he continues his streak of negativity and skepticism... Well, I can definitely see how his lead programmer left. yup, I'm never buying his games again.
RememberThe357  +   859d ago
Well if they never make games for your favorite console, this seems like a win-win.

But what about all the other devs that aren't really buying this about face? Your not going to play their games either because they don't trust a company that didn't treat them right?

Would you trust people who treated you like crap them suddenly kissed your ass?
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theWB27  +   859d ago
What is it with these Indie Devs and their feelings being hurt? My it matters if it was reactionary and disingenuous? Are they expecting some type of apology or for them to grovel to Indie Devs. I understand the scene is growing, but it is no way supporting any of these machines and a relative few Indie Games actually get recognized.

Even the future ability to use the system as a dev kit isn't enough for these whiners.

I have a meme with Fry too except mine goes something like- Not sure if life is getting better or the amount of F I give is decreasing. <there attitude is making me not to want to start supporting them. Jonathan Blowhard is at the top of this mountain of tears and broken feelings.

Indie devs aren't EA, Ubi, Taketwo so if they want to lose out on money cause they're precious feelings were hurt then let them.
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dedicatedtogamers  +   859d ago
"What is it with these Indie Devs and their feelings being hurt? My it matters if it was reactionary and disingenuous? Are they expecting some type of apology or for them to grovel to Indie Devs."

First of all, it matters to them because most indie devs are putting their own livelihoods and finances on the line. They are indies. By nature, they don't have a pool of cash to support their company. And so when a dozen credible, acclaimed indie devs are all saying "it's best to watch out for Microsoft", why should that be ignored? Some of these people got royally screwed by Microsoft when they put their games on XBLA and they're simply warning other indies to not follow the same path.
theWB27  +   859d ago
AND EVEN WHEN MICROSOFT REVERSES THEIR STANCE THEY STILL SAY THEY WON'T SUPPORT THEM BECAUSE THEY'RE FEELINGS WERE HURT. So it isn't about money, it's about feelings for them. Cause if they're livelihood were on the line then they'd get their game out to as many people as they could. Since Micro is going to great "reactionary" lengths to do that and yet they still whine....then let them fail. The gamers didn't do this...and that isn't what they're thinking about.

If it were about gamers, they'd swallow their pride and release their game to as many gamers as they could. But they aren't...
maniacmayhem  +   859d ago
So would they have rather MS NOT reverse their policies?

This is what also gets me upset and why I don't see a lot of folks commenting on this. Remember when this was first brought up and MS had the same draconian policy in place? All we heard was b*****, whining and moaning from some of these very devs telling MS to wise up and change their ways.

Even on this site (which by the way NEVER cared about indies until recently) was huffing and puffing and declaring Sony the winner because of their newly found love for self publishing.

Now after all the crying and pleading MS finally reverses their stance and now we STILL get the same cry baby attitude from these devs. And we also get a lot of folks on here suspicious, confused or not trusting.

So when can the nonsense stop?

MS changed their stance they are making it easier for all indies now. That is their apology to them. It should be about business not some BS about feelings being hurt.
dedicatedtogamers  +   859d ago
@ theWB27 and maniacmayhem

Clearly you're not paying attention. Indies aren't crying and b****ing about it. Most are being cautiously optimistic, which is exactly what they should be. Right now, all Microsoft has offered is "goals" and "promises" of how self-publishing will be handled in the future. It's important to note that self-publishing is not available on Xbox One right now, and it won't be until some time after launch.

With Microsoft's track record, why wouldn't indies be cautious? Some of these guys got screwed over by Microsoft in the past and now they're saying "okay, it's good that MS allows self-publishing, but are there strings attached?" It's not a matter of crying. It's a matter of indies not wanting to spend another $50,000 or $200,000 of their own money to publish a game on XBLA when they've had a bad experience with Microsoft in the past.

Seems pretty straight forward.
maniacmayhem   859d ago | Bad language | show
KwietStorm  +   859d ago
It's really nothing to do with feelings in the least. It's about business, all about business. And when you, as a businessman, feel that the platform you have to have a relationship with in order to make money and continue doing what you do, is being disingenuous, then you have every right to review your standing with them and speak out about it.
NeoTribe  +   859d ago
Its not about feeling you idiot. When someone fucks you over in real life you learn not to deal with them anymore. Especially when your finances are involved. If you had a gf and she cheated on you, you would not trust her anymore, therefore you would keep your distance.
theWB27  +   859d ago
Well at least you tried huh?
KwietStorm  +   859d ago
Can't blame a guy for calling it as he sees it.
cunnilumpkin  +   859d ago
not to mention 90% of indie games SUCK

I never spend more than $1-$5 on them

they just aren't worth it to me, I know some people love them, but for me, a $1-$5 or so is fine and i'm cool with helping someone out who may one day make an awesome game....but....very few I have liked

mark of the ninja was cool, but probably made by a team to big to be indie

journey was good

dust is cool, really cool actually, ok, come to think of it there are some really good ones....

but I have played a lot of terrible ones

and now ms and sony are trying to be even nicer to these guys and all they do is shit on them for it

-slightly off topic
jonathan blow is annoying as hell, dude made one mediocre game and thinks hes an authority

btw blow guy, the witness looks pure crap
#7 (Edited 859d ago ) | Agree(16) | Disagree(12) | Report | Reply
TongkatAli  +   859d ago
Soul Sacrifice was made by Indie devs. Comcept is a tiny company.
DoctorJones  +   859d ago
It was developed by Marvelous AQL and Japan Studio though wasn't it?
blackstrr411  +   859d ago
Indie titles should be forever grateful to MS. Eventho. They r painting MS in a bad light they did give em a chance on consoles. MS started that on consoles. They screen out so that we don't crappy apps n games like in ios stores. Eg. Grandma Gardening, boob stare, pick your nose fight. Like serrrzly. WTF. Thank you MS for giving me quality indies on 360. Still playing monaco
Bigpappy  +   859d ago
What wrong with being "reactionary"? They (Console maker) all are.

Does he want a written apology, or does M$ have to love him?

Either you take the opportunity to sell your games to a fan base that has proven to actually buy indie games in huge numbers, when they are any good, or he feeds his kids pride sandwiches for the rest of their lives.

I think eventually he will take the leap.
RememberThe357  +   858d ago
It implies that MS doesn't have a long term plan. If they're making it up as they go which they have to be at this point (they've completely changed their model), how can you assume their being genuine (think the EA/UFC relationship).

Understand that the same people who wouldn't give these devs the time of day are now telling them how important they are. Thats shiesty no matter how you slice it. For these devs this is not a hobby, this is how they survive. This is not talked about on forums it's talked about around kitchen tables. These guys are weary of MS because they had bad experiences. Why is it so hard for people to understand why they'd be cautious?

Just put yourself in their shoes, what would you do?
#9.1 (Edited 858d ago ) | Agree(0) | Disagree(0) | Report | Reply
Bigpappy  +   858d ago
I understand and empathize with the struggle. But this is a big win for people like him. I would expect him to say "it about darn time they did this". But to sit there and wallow would not be the right thing to do if this is your livelihood. Time to start pursuing your dreams and bringing in that needed cash.

He can do like valve and tell M$ where to shove it and still us they OS because not doing so is bad business.
RememberThe357  +   858d ago
Ahhh I see where your coming from. But honestly I think I'd still tell them to shove it.

I do love the way Ballmer handled it though. Those guys got cocky, fell on their faces, and he kicked their asses out the door with some humble pie as a constellation prize. No need to wait it out like Sony did with the PS3, take the hit now and rebuild your credibility with consumers before launch. It's working.
MASTER_RAIDEN  +   859d ago
To true. MS's moves to allow indie publishing was only in reactions to similar moves made by other companies.

seems as if thats been a reoccurring theme for the xbox brand as of late.
Fireseed  +   859d ago
Ok then answer me this... who did it first? Most choices are itterative, and reactionary for people to call it out as something negative... is just simply stupid.
MASTER_RAIDEN  +   859d ago
the problem with it is that MS, as a multi billion dollar company, had a stance on indie development. changing MULTIPLE major decisions in regards to your product gives people the impression that you didnt think this through and that it was slapped together last minute. it also immediately brings me to question how genuine they are with these sudden changes in heart.

paint whatever picture you want dude. the bottom line is that scrapping almost everything about the way your console operates is going to be seen in a negative light, as it should be.
Bigpappy  +   858d ago
So your are saying they should fire the guy, who didn't know what he was doing, but keep his direct and policies to save face? That make no sense what so ever. If they fired the leader, the first order of business is to re-evaluate every decision he make and try and go the exact opposite direction. That is kind of what Sony is doing too. Most of the things they are doing with PS4 are completely different from PS3 because they lost a lot of ground to 360 and a lot of money to boot.
So like they are all "reactionary".
MASTER_RAIDEN  +   857d ago
no, thats not what I'm saying at all. i never implied they should stick to their old policies by any means, stop putting words in my mouth.
my initial point was that having to change your polices on just about everything makes your product look terrible from the beginning. i couldnt care less what justification they had to change: point being is that having to change on reaction the way MS has been, is making MS look really unprofessional.

what they should have done is have more relaxed policies from the very beginning. the changes MS are making are GREAT. the fact that they had to make such changes to begin with though, is NOT.
n4rc  +   859d ago
This guy is a f**king moron..

One more reason I hate this insignificant nobody.. Reactionary or not, who cares? Every action is a reaction to something.

He wanted something.. Gets it.. But still finds a way to bitch about it..

New policy.. Indies can self publish.. Except this tool.. Lol
Tctczach  +   859d ago
This guy has never been happy with anything. Watch that Indie movie with him in it and all he does is complain about EVERYTHING. Has anyone asked the people who are developing for the Xbox one if it is good?
Sarobi  +   859d ago
I get it if they have something against MS personally.. but what I don't get is why they continue to complain about things these companies do. Simply put if you don't like what they are doing.. don't support them. Put your game on the other platforms and call it a day.
DiRtY  +   859d ago
I made this comment for a different article, but it just fits for this one as well.

It is time for indie devleopers to be quite once for all.
Let's face it, 98% of indie games are trash. They don't deserve the slightest attention, let alone a pricetag above "free".

Somehow these nerds became so freaking vocal over the past years. It was MS with XBLA that gave them the chance to be on consoles. I loved the split between XBLA and XBLIG. The user knew right from the start where the potential really is. XBLA offered some cool experiences that got the attention they deserved. (State of Decay is awesome, go and buy it now!)

But something like 10 releases over a generation that almost took a decade to end, there is not much the indies brought up that was worth my time. Limbo, Braid, Super Meat Boy, Trials, Castle Crashers, Journey, Minecraft and yeah... that was it. Maybe I forgot one or two titles though.

Suddenly these indie "designers" (not even developers! I am looking at you Jonathan Blow) come up and want to have influence on the hardware design of the console. Who do they think they are? Their best selling games sell somewhere in the 200k - 500k region for $10 and those are celebrated like oh so successful titles. On the other hand retail releases selling 800k for $60 are called out for lackluster sales.

Jonathan Blow made one (in numbers: 1) game. Braid. And that was 5 years ago. Since then he talked so much nonsense about stuff he has no clue about. And that is just one example.

Look Phil Fish (The FEZ-guy) saying "your games suck" to Japanese developers. This guy is just embarrissing.

And those guys want to have an influence for a hardware that costs Sony and MS BILLIONS in R&D? They are living in an ecosystem Microsoft and Sony created ffs. They should be THANKFUL to release their games on these platforms.

IF you believe in your game, you should not worry that it won't stick out of the masses of indie games. It is a competitive market for everyone in this industry. Mobile developers, indie developers, major AAA developers, console manufacturers - why should indie games get another treatment?

I could go on and on, but I got to work.
4logpc  +   859d ago
Could not agree more. You sir...get a bubble vote.
Soldierone  +   859d ago
If you look at the few games that released on consoles and combine that with the app stores on phones, then yes. Tons of the indie games totally suck. Try finding a decent game on Android or IOS, it sucks.

However, the reason real gamers are excited for indie games is because of Steam. They make tons of money and have tons of users thanks to indie titles. A lot of indie titles on there are actually innovative and fun.

The only time consoles ever got indie games is if they sold that 200k or 500k amount because then consoles wanted to bank on the sales. A lot of them were lame side scrollers, or top down zombie shooters. THAT isn't what this is. We are getting the better games like Minecraft and so on a lot faster, and they don't have to get popular first.

I do agree that the indies are getting a lot of say though. I think they should get a say on how to make publishing easier, but beyond that it seems like a bit much.
#14.2 (Edited 859d ago ) | Agree(3) | Disagree(6) | Report | Reply
Ulf  +   859d ago
I have to agree. The number of one-hit (or zero-hit) wonder indie devs talking trash has been making me ill lately.

For the most part, they got lucky. They're not the brilliant game industry masterminds they seem to believe themselves to be. There are 20 FAR superior indie, or small dev games, for every one of these smash hit wonder games, that never got the chance to make it big.
#14.3 (Edited 859d ago ) | Agree(4) | Disagree(2) | Report | Reply
jmac53  +   859d ago
Have you seen Fez? Enough said.
n4rc  +   859d ago
I agreed the first time and I'll do it again.. Well said
jmac53  +   859d ago
Well it's not about the hardware, it's about the the policies and the restrictions these consoles have. Yeah there will be trash indies that come out but the few amazing indies that have come out far outweigh the trash. You just have to be smart in what you download.
Kingthrash360  +   859d ago
it seems ms fanboys have been in full force lately. I've seen some comments that were not bias, not hateful they were just great views and questions. still had a ton of disagrees. why is that? Ive seen the same from aony fanboys too but ANYTHING that even sounds remotely bad against ms gets a disagree....its funny is all, especially when they constantly say n4g is a sony site....just funny how fanboys think eveyones a fanboy.
Septic  +   859d ago
Ah so now you're finally beginning to understand what it's like for the rest of us who aren't super diehard Sony fanboys. I'm not trying to justify what you say is happening but if you're shedding tears over disagrees, then consider yourself lucky that this doesn't happen 99% of the time to you.
Kingthrash360  +   859d ago
more like tears of laughter.....I know people will disagree on anything said about anything. but ive noticed things like the "well said" bubs up next to a persons well said comment....but then I look and see more disagrees than agrees. it shows how people will just disagree regardless of how well said the comment is and its just immature imo. i thought the gaming community had changed for the better but it seems to have grown more immature. especially after the drm saga. before the 180 it wasnt THIS bad, now that ms has changed their tune anything critical said about ms is a sin....but hey, whatever, ignore it. I just hope that this gen is a great one and both do rrod, no ylod, just fun all around....ill sit back and watch the disagrees flow again on my positive comment about gaming.
Septic  +   859d ago
Regarding your points about disagrees/agrees, the usual trend is that if someone is defending/saying something favourable about MS and that person has a well said bubble, they usually have a lot more disagrees than agrees. Sony fanboys are very strong on this site and have been for quite some time. They pounce on others at there mere mention of positivity.

"I just hope that this gen is a great one and both do rrod, no ylod, just fun all around"

Yeah and so do I but, realistically that will never happen, which is a shame.
CBaoth  +   859d ago
Honestly, anymore I don't know which is worse; the constant parading around of the PS4 by droids in every article like it's a gift handed down by God himself OR the little butt hurt woe is me from Xbots in every thread. They remind of that emo twat screaming "Leave Brittney alone!!!!"

"Now you you know what it feels like". Umm really, you have 7 bubbles; so mistreated.

I find it incredibly ironic that in less than 17 years after Bill Gates famously said "content was king" Xbots find LESS content more appealing. I find it equally laughable droids think what Sony has done in 2013 is altruistic and not simply business. Like they're the Buddha of gaming now.
#15.1.3 (Edited 859d ago ) | Agree(3) | Disagree(1) | Report
Kenshin_BATT0USAI  +   859d ago
What microsoft is doing is very reactionary. Anyone who says otherwise is an idiot. That being said, is that a bad thing? Not really, at the end of the day, consumers win.
Loki86  +   859d ago
This guy and Jonathan Blow will not get one cent for me. There a place to be professional and place to be a critic. They are just showing their lack of respect for the industry.
#17 (Edited 859d ago ) | Agree(5) | Disagree(4) | Report | Reply
jmac53  +   859d ago
I totally agree. It feels like MS is going down a checklist of things they did wrong and need to correct and are comparing it to what Sony has already done. This all started once MS saw the preorder numbers.
Dlacy13g  +   859d ago
Phil Fish's view means little to me. He has proven his own greed outweighed his desire to fix the game he broke. Yes the patch process was flawed and expensive....but he could afford the patch based on what his game sold. He made a crap initial patch that broke the game and didn't do the work to make sure his update was good to begin with. And once he relized his own mistake would cost him money to fix...suddenly the process was at fault not his poor QA process.

This Fish is definitely dead to me.
SaffronCurse  +   859d ago
If it wasn't for Sony, Microsoft wouldn't have made these changes to their initial Master Plan.
wtopez  +   859d ago
I believe it was the current Pope who said "Si te lo meteis gritais, si te lo sacais llorrais."
Deltaguy  +   859d ago
LOL holy crap....this developer guy is on point...everything Microsoft has done since the dropping of drm was straight up copy playstations 4s talking points..they weren't even talking about indies at E3 at all, they back tracked on's borderline pathetic to see a company this big doing this kinda stuff..they are not even trying to distinguished themselves from the ps4...what they are saying is "look we are ps4 with kinect" lol
christocolus  +   859d ago
I actually feel bad for them and what they must hav been through but people move on.I am totally against the continous backlash. MS started this indie push on consoles with the xbox 360 , brought them out and made policies which ended up being the norm at the time.these guys in my opinion should be happy ms gave them the chance to shine.they are not being forced to make games for the xbox one, its not an obligation. If the new ms policies are not favourable to them then they should move on and stop being so pessimistic..These guys aint the only devs out there, as we speak i know ms would have signed on a lot of old and fresh indie devs willing to work on their console. I'm sick and tired of all the attacks and complains. MS is trying to make it right but expecting them to start kissing their a..s is totally unaceptable. MS can do without this few in my opinion.The truth is MS will start a whole new wave of indie games, new indie devs will come out and the new policies will be embraced, johnathan blow and his colleagues should pls give it a rest.No ones perfect no organisation is.
quenomamen  +   859d ago
Yea we get it MS first it was " Teh Cloud and its infinite power " now its " hey kids wanna make ur own game ? " keep throwing crap on the wall and see what sticks.
Gore-Content  +   859d ago
He's just saying the truth.
DoctorJones  +   859d ago
If MS was so bad to him, why was Fez released on the 360 first? It's not on the ps3 is it, why is that?
yewles1  +   859d ago
LOL, when Fez was XBOX exclusive SO MANY people defended everything he did, no matter what it was. NOW it takes his recent comments on MS for THE SAME GROUP to call him out? ROFL!!!
Droid Control  +   859d ago
Why do people deal with M$

They are quite clearly scum. A plague on the gaming industry.
CEOSteveBallmer  +   859d ago
Borat voice: I take a step, he take a step, i get clock radio, he get clock radio, i got no DRM, he got no DRM, i got publishing rights he get publishing rights, i have blu ray, he gets blu ray, I have cheapconsolewithpowerfulhardwa re... he cannot afford. Great success!! High Five!!
windblowsagain  +   858d ago
That's the 3rd 180 MS has done.

Waiting for one more - Price.

atm it's the xbox540

But it'll end up the xbox720 just like we predicted.
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