GT:On this week's Pach-Attack, Michael Pachter looks at how much Sony stands to gain from Blu-Ray implementation in the Xbox One
Hey Pach forgot to mention a buck for every bluray disc sold for xbox one, that will run into 100`s of millions !!
Sony only gets a small fraction of the royalties from the blu-ray standard, they are only one of the nine major electronics firms that founded the Blu-ray standard and they are only one of the eighteen firms making up the Blu-ray Disc Association which continues to develop and collect royalties on the Blu-ray standard and there are dozens of other companies that own and collect royalties from the BDA on the critical patents that the blu-ray standard requires, ironically, Microsoft being one of them for their proprietary VC-1 video codec. Pach, once again, showing his very limited knowledge.
Out of all the members Sony and Phillips hold the most IP used in bluray so I expect they get more than the others. But it's still not as much as people might think. Besides, Sony and Phillips also are the main owners for the CD and DVD IP so Microsoft has been giving them money all along. Switching to bluray is likely only a small bump up in royalty payments. Also these kinds of tech royalty deals usually have maximum limits and sliding scales that reduce the per unit royalty after certain targets are met.
but they do get some of every blu-ray sold so he has a point, may not be accurate on the numbers but i am sure sony is happy to have more people buying blu-rays. of course this is assuming people that are buying the xb1 dont already have blu-ray players. which they most likely do. so his speculation could be very pointless
@greenlantern2814 blu-rays aren't just movies dude.... the games will be on blu-ray format too
Even though Sony is on the Blu-ray board the own most of the patents for Blu-ray disc and Panasonic own most of the patents for Blu-ray players. Both those companies do get a little more in royalties then the rest.
Dear xbone fans: Thanks for the cash to fund our "gamez". Signed, PS4 fans j/k
Oh, I forgot: :) (click to zoom in) http://whitsblog.com/wp-con...
I love watching people pretend to know what they're talking about.
No one used VC - 1 anymore, thou it gives a softer 3D'ish look to films
@Hollywoodland I didn't say sony didn't get any money from blu-ray nor did I say that microsoft makes more money, I said sony is not the sole beneficiary and only recieves a fraction of the total royalty paid as a result. SMPTE is a standards association. MPEG LA, an intellectual property rights management firm, is the entity which collects on behalf of the codec patent holders. page 8 2% or $0.02 per title http://www.mpegla.com/main/... @minute man 721 There are 8 blu-ray releases using VC-1 this week (July 9th). http://www.blu-ray.com/movi... http://www.blu-ray.com/movi... http://www.blu-ray.com/movi... http://www.blu-ray.com/movi... http://www.blu-ray.com/movi... http://www.blu-ray.com/movi... http://www.blu-ray.com/movi... http://www.blu-ray.com/movi...
Yeah, this is probably true, Sony's getting a little something out of this. But on the other side of the coin. Sony may be paying some patient royalties to MS cuz their console is every bit of AMD hardware as MS's console, also PS4 officially supports MS's DX 11.1 api, it been confirmed on many sites already. Whether or not devs utilize dx11 for sony games or not doesn't matter, the FACT is ps4 could run it may be enough to have to pay MS. Even though sony has upgraded it's own api that presumes to surpass the the limitations of dx 11 & opengl named PSL/PlayStation Shader Language but we won't see any graphical effects of psl till later in the console life cycle. So the lesson of this post is patient royalties in biz sometimes SWINGS BOTH WAYS, ya'll.
@HOLLYWOODLAND Not sure about this Hollywood, maybe you can correct me, but didnt the studios decide to drop the VC-1 codec and go for the H264 codec instead due to a higher compression rate? I am sure i heard this somewhere? but i could be wrong.
What Sony will gain is reputation, not necessarily money. For every Blu Ray that sells on X1, it will be a vindication for the PS3. It also means that more cross-gen games will appear on PS3 for a longer period of time. And if/when another format war arises, people will say "Remember how BR versus HD-DVD turned out? I'm buying whatever Sony supports".
Just like they did with betamax ehh?
@ Sitdown If the best "zinger" you can muster is a failure from the late '70s, that kinda proves my point, doesn't it? I mean, you could've gone with something like UMD or minidisc, but betamax? C'mon...
i think the average Consumer has completely forgotton Hd-Dvd..
@dedicatedtigamers Since my post went over your head it's evident that you don't even understand your own rant.....as you prove my point; you think people will now automatically blindly go with Sony just because bluray won out over hd-dvd, when history has shown the market has regularly turned down products that Sony has supported regarding formats. Can you explain your ps3 vindication theory? Also your cross gen logic. @Heartnet Exactly, and I doubt most people automatically think Sony when discussing bluray.
@Sitdown regarding Betamax, it was (is) a better format than VHS, but, not enough for the average consumer to care and spend more on it, also, VHS had an 8hr recording time and betamax, being smaller only had a 6hr recording time on it's slowest recording mode. so, a more expensive price and shorter record time over was a deal breaker for the consumer that didn't mind the degradation in quality in comparison, a win for JVC for sure. But, Betamax was VERY popular in the professional sector and is still used in the television industry, (although, digital media eg: HD and solid state) is replacing it now.
I remember how it turned out. It's funny because at the time the more affordable/consumer friendly product was HDDVD. It was cheaper to manufacture and cost less than Blu Ray. The deciding factor was Universal Studios which was supporting HDDVD format at the time. I recall reading an article that stated Toshiba could only fork over approx 180Million to Universal and Sony countered that offer with 300-380 Million. Once that was decided, it was a done deal. Blu Ray format was the victor. I'll look for the articles online, may take a while but I do remember the war as being Sony vs Toshiba not necessarily Sony VS Microsoft.
@madpuppy Betamax has not been used in the industry for 10+ years. I don't know what backwoods tech place you know of. Digital and DVD has been the base for a long time. You also forgot the main reason VHS took off vs Betamax. PORN! VHS was the only ones that would let the porn industry use their tech. It almost single handily won that war.
dedicated to fanboys. wtf? seriously? you just write any nonsense to get bubbles. if anything, ps3s blu-ray what sort of vindicated by the lack of multi-disc games on. that is all. saying that the x1s blu-ray inclusion is the vindication is utter nonsense. and wtf is this cross gen sh#t you are talking about???? and like i said, your typical pathetic bubble fishing comment. you truely are the worst troll on here
Sony never countered the $180m given to Universal and Paramount by Microsoft. It was a bold move but worked to delay the inevitable as Transformers was mad exclusive to HD DVD at that time. the deciding factor was Warner who up until that time, released on both formats but ultimately decided to side with BD, possibly convinced by the sale ratio of BD which was always higher than HD DVD. following that announcement, all major studios except Paramount and Universal are on the BD bandwagon. they had to jump ship and then Toshiba announced the discontinuation.
@ loulou Pot. Kettle. I hope you know the rest.
@dedicatedtogamers I agree. Sony does have an edge at cross-platform games but only with first-party studios. Third-party will most likely make for all consoles ( current gen and next, not excluding 360 - example Destiny ) or only next-gen. But I also doubt Sony will let it's studios make cross-gen titles b/c they want PS4 to sell. Maybe Japan studios.
ofcourse i know the rest raptor. i dont suck sonys bell, so automatically i am an xbox fanboy... even though i have a ps4 on pre-order
a buck for every disc? way to high me thinkz.. 2 dollars royaltys for the drive.. ur looking at pennies if that per disc
How about how much is SONY paying Microsoft for use of Direct X11 in the PS4? Both companies are paying one another. Microsoft is paying SONY a small fraction for Blu-Ray, and SONY is paying Microsoft a small fraction for use of Direct X11. *EDIT* What ignorant Sony fanboy clicked Disagree, but didn't reply? without doing research to see I stated facts? Not rumors, but facts. It is a fact that Direct X is a component of Microsoft Windows. It is used by a plethora of software applications for graphics visualization. Also used for games developed on the Dreamcast, Xbox, X360. Now it will be used by Sony on the PS4. Microsoft Source: http://www.bit-tech.net/new... Sony Source: http://www.geek.com/games/s...
Well said Auric... LOL, Sony uses Windows in their notebooks. Only to fanboys it's like a victory if X1 uses bluray but for those two big conglomerates it's nature of business and they are not mortal enemies to each other. They have been collaborating on many things for tons of years and only started against each other over consoles.
DirectX is not something anyone needs or has to use. DirectX is an API tool, and its main purpose is to consolidate many different devices, so that, for example, an ATI GPU can effectively be programed the same as an NVIDIA GPU. This is used so that is makes it easier, primarily for PC programers. One downside of DirectX, is the fact that developers can't ever really get the full potential of said device. None of Sony's consoles or handhelds have ever used or needed DirectX.
I thought ps4 uses open gl not dx..............
Remember, Sony are not in this for the money....
At any rate, yeah, whether people will admit it or not, Xbone purchases will go to sony; nothing wrong with that, it's just the way it is. I guess blu-ray is needed this gen.
It's some good pocket change but nothing major Sony computers use windows It's the fanboys who think about this stuff, end of the day ps4 has build a lot of momentum and I expect Sony to roar back into #1 from day one. As someone who bought ps1 this time around reminds me of launch of ps1-ps2 when Sony was on fire
What is The point on this.......isn't Microsoft a more prosper and richer company? Isn't Bill Gates the richest person on earth? Isn't Apple making some parts of the iPhone with Samsung......so what? Does that make apple less better than Samsung or something? Does it make SONY BETTER THAN MICROSOFT? How much pay SONY to Microsoft in the computer business? Who needs who?
These companies have always paid licensing fees to each other. The Microsoft Office and Windows fees are far more expensive depending on which edition the Sony Vaio computers use. The fees were once $120 once but Microsoft supposedly slashed the prices a whole lot this year. And the fees for the blu ray disc are like 12 cents. Plus the fees paid for the blu ray usage is $9.50 but divided between 9 companies of the BDA. And fees eventually go down. Microsoft can easily pay this without hurting.
Eh, not that much (from the perspective of corporations of that size), but it's still something. Better than nothing, right?
Sony is just one of the members of the BluRay Association
Yup, they are one of the many members but they are one of the 4 propriety owners of Blu-Ray technology and they control the rights to the use of Blu-ray in consoles. MS will pay them a minimal amount, its something but nothing to brag about. MS will pay maybe $4 in royalties and Sony might receive $1 for every Xbone.
but they are one of the 4 propriety owners of Blu-Ray technology and they control the rights to the use of Blu-ray in consoles. That's not true. They don't control the rights to bluray used in a console. It doesn't work that way.
@Belking Company, Shareholder, Patent, License. Take a look at these concepts and you will understand how it works.
..and don't forget, with the power of the cloud, $1 is actually worth 10
These sorts of industry organizations normally license their technology on a fair and non-discriminatory basis, so Sony can't block a company from licensing bluray, provided they meet all the normal criteria and agree to the standard license.
I said it since Microsoft was pushing for DRM that Microsoft wants to sway customers to buy Digital so they could try and avoid paying Sony and save big on just digital distribution but everyone knows how that idea turned out.
MS DRM implementation was because the publishers ask for it and also because they want to destroy GAMESTOP. As for their pursuit of digital it because digital is the future.None of these measures has anything to do with SONY . MS and SONY have been paying each other for stuff since for ever . Yes MS will pay a few cents per disc to SONY but SONY still pays them for the codec they use . MS pays them for the CD,DVD,Bluray rights and Sony pays MS for codec ,use of windows in their computers and tons of other MS software . it's a give and take relationship
@hakeem0996 Both Sony and Microsoft stated that publishers didn't pressure them into adding DRM for their consoles. It's something Microsoft did on their own.
Digital is the future we can agree on that. But what is wrong of offering consumers both? We are at the stage that there is a higher demand for physical media for games than digital (on consoles). Sony and MS both offer digital versions of games so to try and kill physical media is a bit to soon. Let it die out naturally and let consumers convert to digital with a smoother transition.
That would make sense, except for the fact that not only were they still going to use bluray...but the used game policy was going to cause more people to purchase new.... which means even more blurays being sold.
could this be a reason why the Xbox One is $100 above the PS4 apart from the kinect? cause obviously the tech in the Xbox One like processor .etc are cheaper since they are weaker than the PS4's
The tech doesnt differ much in power and price, it really is Kinect that raised the price. Kinect is an expensive piece of equipment that had a lot of hours of R&D into it.
GOD DAMMIT MICROSOFT
Well, they are hoping to set their console apart from the rest.
I don't know why there are so many dislikes they did put the hours in to "fix" the Kinect to make gamers like it more see by the results its not working. EDIT:Also the fix part doesn't mean I don't agree about how shitty Kinect v1 was but it was.
People are assuming the Kinect is a $100 piece of hardware. I just want to point this out. As much as I don't care for it, it's pretty impressive in what it can do, and I can bet that it's over $150 alone. I wouldn't be surprised if Microsoft is selling the X1 at a loss.
in my opinion what drove the cost high is because of all the data gathering capabilities of kinect. I don't think we will see too many games that will justify all the R&D that went into Kinect reading how you feel, or whats your heart rate, or where you look and for how long, or where the blood is rushing in your body, or how many people sit in front of it and whether that person is you. the last two or the ones that scare me the most by the way because Microsoft bragged about them to a group of industry analysts saying Kinect was the future of charging people for a rental based on how many people are sitting in front of the kinect. They even made the patents for these features. Personally I don't think MS will have the guts to implement these technologies in such a way, anytime soon, but the Kincet will be the catalyst that sets the precedent of invading peoples homes in ways that were unheard of only a few months ago. Once people buy into xbox (and they will) and it becomes normal to have such a device with these types of technologies in your home and be ok with it, then the next step will be to use the said technology to make money. Its kind of like the frog that gets boiled slowly, never jumps out of the pot story. Kinect will be the trojan horse that sets the precedent for all corporations to gather information from your homes using all sorts of devices you use.
"I wouldn't be surprised if Microsoft is selling the X1 at a loss. " One is certain it will be selling at a loss Kinect or not if the PS4 also is. You're right about the Kinect's manufacturing costs, Kinect 1 retailed for $150, surely Kinect 2 is around that price specially since it's way ahead technologically.
It's impressive watching it on the internet(for some people I guess), but what happens when it's in the hands of the consumers? I think it's going to end up being like the kinect 1.0 on the 360. Mine started to collect dust after a few weeks because all MS released were casual shovelware titles, and lets be honest when you get home from work the last thing you want to do is wave your tired arms around in front of your TV.Kinect is cool for what it is, a device designed for kids and grandparents.
Not likely. Keep in mind that there is going to be tech in the PS4 that Sony will be licensing from MS as well. MS and Sony will be licensing tech from Motorola, Samsung, and likely many other companies as well. It's just the way computer stuff is made nowadays. Patent licensing of this nature is usually fractions of a penny per unit, or sometimes just a base price to license the tech. Everyone assumes that the Kinect is the main $100 price difference, which is reasonable considering all it does, but I doubt it actually costs MS $100 to manufacture each Kinect device. Foxgod is accurate though that they would want to recoup R&D costs on the device, but that's likely part of the overall R&D budget for X1.
so either way xbox one fanboys lose. you will still be giving money to sony so you might as well go all the way and get the superior ps4 which has the better blueray player an discs.
Yeeeeaaa but Blu ray has a codec that belongs to Microsoft. So they're paying Microsoft also :-p
Sun and Oracle also get money, considering java is used on Bluray disc's.
VC-1, the codec you are referring to, is actually owned by 18 different companies. It is considered an essential patent and licensing fees are paid either to the MPEG LA licensing body, or directly to it's members. The standard itself is open to implementation by anybody, but licensing may be required. VC-1 is already supported by PS3 and is the standard codec for the 360. It's worth noting that Sony is one of the 18 members who holds a patent that is part of VC-1. Overall this whole debate is stupid. These companies aren't really at each others throats. And any licensing fees paid through this stuff is paltry compared to other costs involved in manufacturing these systems or games. I'd also like to point out, that most of these fees are paid by the actual practical application of the patent application. For instance, in Foxgod's example of Java, Sun isn't likely to get anything unless the disc actually uses something that is Java based. That fee will likely come from the development tool used to make the content in question, and isn't paid on a per unit basis.
^^^ VC-1 is no longer the codec they have upgraded
Mind if I ask what codec Blu-Ray upgraded to? All I can find is that it is one of the codecs used in Blu-Ray. BTW, blu-ray actually supports several codecs. VC-1 was just the commonly accepted one used for movie playback. MPEG-4AVC is the other compatible format that's a choice to use for HD playback, but they've both been available from the start.
^^ VC-9 of course