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Submitted by Abriael 451d ago | news

Mark Cerny Explains How the PS4′s 8 GB GDRR5 RAM and Bus Work and Why They Were Chosen

The PS4′s loving dad (or at least one of its fathers) Mark Cerny did a lot of thinking on the console’s architecture even before the first piece of circuitry was printed, so he's the best one to explain how the much touted 8 gigabytes of unified GDRR5 RAM coupled with the bus work, and why that solution was implemented. (Mark Cerny, PS4)

PositiveEmotions  +   451d ago
Why doesnt n4g just makes one article telling everything that mark cerny explain instead having so many articles on mark cerny explained this and that..

No offense n4g
Prcko  +   451d ago
mostly site editors make stories on their websites,and they submit those stories here for hot temperature
after few weeks i kinda know those websites:
dualshockers,playstationlifes tyle,dso gaming,gamechup and few others :)
#1.1 (Edited 451d ago ) | Agree(37) | Disagree(19) | Report | Reply
black0o  +   450d ago
just watch it ur self .. he's great

http://www.youtube.com/watc...
cayleee  +   450d ago
No offence but why doesnt Mark Cerny ever talk about the CPU, which happens to be a tablet CPU running at 1.6ghz or whatever it is?

Or why not mention the mobile GPU within the machine. Why focus on something like RAM which essentially does no calculations. Its just a container that holds Data and transports it. How fast that Data gets processed essentially depends on CPU & GPU funnily both of those are never talked about.
#1.1.2 (Edited 450d ago ) | Agree(8) | Disagree(27) | Report
CryofSilence  +   450d ago
@Cayleee

The modified Jaguar AMD CPU is a desktop based, x86 8 core CPU. Tablets generally use ARM based chips. Point one: invalidated.

The GPU outperforms in specs capable desktop GPUs. Point two: invalidated.

RAM is the highway on which calculations are transferred. Increase the number of lanes and the speed limit, and you get better results. The processors will have no problems filling that; most current processors wouldn't have problems either. Point three: invalidated.

Stop trolling and read a little.
#1.1.3 (Edited 450d ago ) | Agree(29) | Disagree(5) | Report
loulou  +   450d ago
caylee becareful. you cannot say things like that on n4g.

have a look at crysis 3 or bf3/4 recommended ultra settings, and you will see that the amount of RAM is not huge at all.

it is the cpu and gpu that make the difference.

but dont bother trying to say that on here. they dont want to hear things like this. all of a sudden ram is the new buzzword, just like cell was back in the day.

and yes kids i have a ps4 on pre-order
#1.1.4 (Edited 450d ago ) | Agree(8) | Disagree(18) | Report
arjman  +   450d ago
@loulou
Stop turning it into a fanboy-related comment, cayleee stated that the CPU is a tablet processor when in reality the 8-core X86 processor will outperform any ARM processor on the market.

Cayleee if you're gonna troll at least do it properly. If you were an XBox fan you'd know the CPUs in both consoles are very similar and if you were a PC fan you'd know that the 8-core APU isn't comparable to a mobile part. So I ask, what the hell is your deal?
awi5951  +   450d ago
@arjman

In reality all amd 8 core cpus suck major (&*)&*. Except maybe the 8350 and 8320 and these cpu's in these consoles arent those so its a huge fail on both microsoft and sony's consoles. Console guys should really stop talking like they know anything about pc parts.

I dont think the parts in these consoles are even worth 400 and 500 dollars i think they both are pulling a apple and trying to make major profit off the consoles day one. Because both these consoles sound like gaming Laptops. My Pc far outperforms every card in the 7000 series of amd cards except a 7990 which is a 800 dollar card and these cards dont come close.

So ill just stick to my pc and still have better looking games. I get 110 fps in BF3 on ultra at 1080P right now. Ill put my Pc performance on BF4 against both these consoles and i bet ill still come ontop with fPS performance and graphcis.
#1.1.6 (Edited 450d ago ) | Agree(4) | Disagree(4) | Report
starchild  +   450d ago
@arjman

Actually the AMD CPU in the PS4 and Xbox One utilizes their Jaguar core, which also powers their Kaveri APU, which IS in fact designed for use in tablets and netbooks.

Jaguar has about one quarter the performance per core as an i5 2500k.
arjman  +   450d ago
@awi5951
Its hard to gauge the true performance of a CPU & GPU combo without truly optimising a game for the hardware. Yes the comparable AMD parts will lose in PC game benchmarks and general benchmarks compared to high end parts but that's because the consoles need low power, low heat components.

With proper optimisation we'll see just how capable these consoles are. I too game on PC and I can appreciate the heat and power specs they have to meet. There's no point comparing the consoles to an i5 and titan equipped PC which most likely has several fans cooling it while it sucks up several hundred watts because they can't get that kind of power in a console sized case.

And I don't appreciate the way you talked up your own PC bragging about it and such, all you're doing is giving PC gamers a bad name.

@star child
The key word is 'utilizes', Nvidia utilize their desktop architecture in their mobile parts for example.
#1.1.8 (Edited 450d ago ) | Agree(4) | Disagree(2) | Report
awi5951  +   449d ago
@arjman

Don't patronize me man the PS fanboys have gone completely mental lately talking about how the PS4 is so much better than the average pc's we game on. Go talk to them about how they are acting. Im just setting the record straight the specs they tout so much pc cards had those specs 3 years ago well actually they were higher.
Abriael  +   451d ago
Because it would be an enormous wall of text that would bore most people after the first two pages, while it's a lot easier on the eyes and on the brain to read on specific topics, that are of interest and relevant on their own.
#1.2 (Edited 451d ago ) | Agree(67) | Disagree(11) | Report | Reply
PositiveEmotions  +   451d ago
Ok that makes sense lol
TechnicianTed  +   451d ago | Well said
No Abriael, it's so sites can make more than one article based on one interview. Let's not make it out to be more than it is.

This is what I hate about so called journalism from many of the two bit sites we now get flooded with.

No real journalism, just picking through the bones and getting hits based on headlines.
#1.2.2 (Edited 451d ago ) | Agree(11) | Disagree(24) | Report
Abriael  +   451d ago
@TechnicianTed: if you're not interested, you're entirely free not to read it.

This kind of thing is relevant, whether you like it or not, so I'm not exactly sure why we should omit it to make you happy.

There's very little "bone picking" here, considering that it's the first time the founding architecture of the console has been really explained in detail.

Maybe you should just bring your rage elsewhere?

besides, you don't even know what we're talking about, since this isn't an interview, but a 50 minute conference, so maybe you should get your facts straight?

And it's a very intense conference with a ton of relevant info.
Good luck putting that all in a single article without boring the hell out of your readers.
#1.2.3 (Edited 451d ago ) | Agree(17) | Disagree(9) | Report
TechnicianTed  +   451d ago
'@TechnicianTed: if you're not interested, you're entirely free not to read it. '

I didn't.

'This kind of thing is relevant, whether you like it or not, so I'm not exactly sure why we should omit it to make you happy. '

It's been covered already, it's old news.

'There's very little "bone picking" here, considering that it's the first time the founding architecture of the console has been really explained in detail. '

Explained by the man himself, in the full conference, in better detail than the article.

'Maybe you should just bring your rage elsewhere? '

I haven't got any rage, maybe you have because I insulted your website?

'besides, you don't even know what we're talking about, since this isn't an interview, but a 50 minute conference, so maybe you should get your facts straight?'

I was talking in general. Many websites, including your own, pick through an interview, or in this case a speech given by a developer, and make an article based on a certain passage in that interview, or speech, and make an article on it. Are you denying that is not what this article is?

This very article is based on a small amount of what the full speech amounted to. I'm sorry but we already know, it's not news. It's picking out of the bones and making out that you did all the work.

You did nothing, there's no journalism here. No one on your site has made any real effort with this article. This is something that anyone on the internet could do, it involves no skill whatsoever.

'Good luck putting that all in a single article without boring the hell out of your readers. '

Maybe if your staff had some talent it wouldn't be an issue. If your site actually provided some real journalism I wouldn't be saying what I'm saying.

But your site is one of those two bit sites, so I suppose the truth hurts.
mrmarx  +   451d ago
more clicks.. more money
fr0sty  +   450d ago
@ted

You didn't even read the article, which proves you are just talking out of your ass. If you were a real journalist, you would know that keeping your readers engaged and interested is a very big part of it. Presenting them with a 5 page wall of text is not going to keep them reading, and many important details will get lost in the mix. By breaking the story down into individual elements, it allows the journalist to elaborate in much more detail about what was said instead of just a passive mention about it. It allows for deep technical analysis, rather than just bullet point mentions. That's how you properly cover a story without turning it into a novel.

It took 50 minutes just for Cerny to say these things. As a journalist, I wouldn't just cover what he said alone. I would know that my readers may not even understand what the hell he is talking about, so I would do my best to break the technical babble down into layman's terms so everyone could have a grasp on what was being said. I would explain in detail how every bit of what he was talking about worked. By doing so, it would take what took someone 50 minutes to say and turn it into what would take 5 hours to read. Not good for an internet article, so therefore it would have to be broken up.
#1.2.6 (Edited 450d ago ) | Agree(9) | Disagree(4) | Report
nix  +   450d ago
should have just posted the 45 minute long video and the highlights.
mushroomwig  +   451d ago
How else are they supposed to milk those hits?
mrmarx  +   451d ago
lol you almost said "tits"
a_squirrel  +   450d ago
They are the tits of the industry, and they have been swelling with milk since E3.
adorie  +   451d ago
All aboard the 256 bit bus.
starchild  +   451d ago
I think Sony were very smart in their designing of the PS4. The x86 ISA and the overall familiar PC-like architecture is going to be great for ease of development.

It's interesting to me to compare to my HD 7950 graphics card in my PC which is based on the same AMD GCN architecture.

The Xbox One has 12 compute units, the PS4 has 18, and my HD 7950 has 28. And instead of a 256 bit bus, the HD 7950 has a 384 bit bus.
WeMilk   451d ago | Spam
fr0sty  +   450d ago
I would expect similar performance out of PS4 than what you get out of your GPU. Mainly due to not having OS overhead (PS4's OS runs on a small chunk of RAM and even has it's own ARM sub-CPU so the main system CPU doesn't have to process any OS commands at all), the developers are able to have much finer control over the hardware rather than having to work with restrictive APUs, and your PC GPU lacks a few advantages such as being able to issue 64 compute commands at once or having a direct bus connecting the CPU to the GPU. Your CPU and GPU are connected with one PCI express bus, so there is a bandwidth advantage on PS4 due to both chips being on the same die. Also, due to having one pool of RAM, if the GPU wants to help the CPU (or vice versa), they don't have to wait the amount of time it takes to copy that data into their local pool of RAM before they can begin working on it.

This can be made up for somewhat due to the fact that you have more raw power in your CPU and GPU, but your system is only as fast as it's slowest component. PS4 is a finely tuned gaming machine. More so than any PC is for the reasons listed above (and more, I didn't even list all of the customizations made to PS4's GPU).

So, once you balance all that out, you'll very likely end up with similar performance out of the two. You may get a slightly higher framerate out of the PC in certain titles, but I wouldn't expect much more.
a_squirrel  +   450d ago
My city has 40 buses
Valkyre  +   450d ago
@ WeMilk

your buses are not enough to display grand theft auto V upon release, they were never interesting enough for red dead redemtpion, the Last of Us dont like your buses either, Metal Gear Solid V "might" at some point enjoy your buses etc etc etc

I believe you get the point...

Enjoy your buses and your limited library of games. Maybe one day you will realise tht your PC has nothing exclusive to it and all those years your buses are essentially inactive because all you do is play console ports with a few texture and resolution upgrades.

But hey,.. good times!

Now that new generation consoles are out, perhaps your buses will actually start working... but i dont want to burst your bubbles... you probably are going to need to upgrade your hardware... :(
AndrewLB  +   450d ago
People don't seem to realize that memory bandwidth is not some kind of game changer considering the PS4's GPU will never come close to utilizing it all. A great example was inadvertently made by starchild with his HD 7950. That card with it's 384-bit memory bus has a bandwidth of 240gb/s, a texture fillrate of 89.6GTexels/s, and pixel fillrate of 25.6GPixels/s. In contrast, the GTX 680 which by all accounts completely destroys the 7950 has only a 256-bit bus and bandwidth of 192gb/s, while having a texture fillrate of 144.8GTexels/s and pixel fillrate of 36.2GPixels/s.
This proves that memory bandwidth is only useful if the GPU is powerful enough to use it, and much of the HD 7950's massive bandwidth is never utilized, and goes to waste.

Btw... the graphics card that is much closer in performance to the PS4 would be the HD7850. The memory bandwidth and 1.7TFlops are very close to the PS4.

Frosty- Again you equate higher free memory bandwidth with actual performance, but that doesn't change the fact that his card can process 2.9Tflops while the PS4 is at 1.7Tflops, not counting the fact that the HD 7950 has almost DOUBLE the PS4's texture fill rate. Additionally, the OS overhead PC's have to deal with because of windows almost completely falls on the CPU, and not the GPU. When a full screen game is run, GPU's switch to a kind of exclusivity mode which allows the GPU to have almost complete focus on the game itself, but it's the CPU that has to not only run the game, but everything windows related in the background.
cayleee  +   450d ago
@Valkyre

"Enjoy your buses and your limited library of games."

Isnt it funny but on the contrary its the PS4 that will be having no BC, and will launch with a handful of games. Meanwhile PC has over 25 years of BC covering about every genre out there. Not only that it can emulate any console ever released (outside of PS3 and Xbox 360).
bumnut  +   450d ago
You do know that a 256 bit bus is mid range at best....... don't you?
thehitman  +   451d ago
@ positive

Thats because N4G doesnt make articles gaming sites make articles and users submit articles they find to N4G. N4G has no control on the information thats submitted other than the rules and guide lines they have in place.

What is a bigger problem is that 1 site will have a lengthy interview with a said person. Then other sites will make articles with small quotes from that site creating many articles. It floods the news channels and usually text gets taken out of context. I see it happen all the time and its EXTREMELY annoying since most people dont actually read the original source.
Masterdon   451d ago | Spam
edgeofsins  +   450d ago
He needs a n4g section
RememberThe357  +   450d ago
No, offence to N4G. They used to regulate that stuff but I've noticed they've been allowing a lot more fluff in now days. The submission system still isn't quite right. Thats actually why I don't contribute anymore; far too much manipulation by sites that want hits.
RedHawkX  +   450d ago
because mark cerny is just to awesome and his intelect cant be contained in just one article lol. you need to read up on these articles so you can learn something boy. positive emotions not these negative ones that you are displaying right now son.
Pancit_Canton  +   451d ago
Mark is spreading the second coming of the king of console. The book of revelation of gaming shall be fulfill this holiday 2013
Pisque  +   451d ago
Lol the previews say that the game is awful.
Abriael  +   451d ago
Eh, previews say a lot of things. I'd say it's a tad early to judge a game that's still five months away no?
lucaskeller1  +   451d ago
I watched the whole youtube presentation posted by the official playstation channel, it was technical at some points but I was engaged for the whole 47 mins and I learned a lot even about previous playstation consoles. I was amazed at how involved Cerny was with playstation since day 1 in 1994 but only found out about him at the feb reveal for ps4
Abriael  +   451d ago | Funny
Yep, Cerny is probably the best narrator I heard in a lot of time. I don't think I know anyone else that can talk about GDDR RAM, bus and bandwidth and make it feel like the most awesome bedtime story.
Groo  +   451d ago
LMAO!! I watched his presentation too and it was very calming lol. It would be the perfect bedtime story. hats off to you
FarCryLover182  +   451d ago
Cerny is very, very wise.
Thomper  +   450d ago
And very, very creepy...in a Star Trek enemy kind of way....
Rainstorm81  +   450d ago
He'd be a perfect Edward Nigma...Riddler
karl  +   451d ago
not in technical terms... just looking at that picture from the article comparing architectures..

the one on the left allows developers to acces the 176GB per seconds from the start

while the one on the right would only allow them to use 88GB per second at first

they would only unleash the other 1000GB when the small EDram chip or whatever is mastered right?

and that would take a few years.. im i right?
MoonWheel  +   451d ago
Yea that is basically it. The 1000Gig is nice, but Sony wants developers to actually like their console lol. 176 gig of memory bandwidth is still plenty though.
Abriael  +   451d ago
Not exactly actually. The 88 Gb per second of the second architecture still remain even after years, but for select uses they can push the 1000 GB, while the 176 GB of the PS4's architecture are for all accesses.

It's not as simple as early vs late. The 1000 GB wouldn't be available for everything.
r1sh12  +   451d ago
yeah..although many of the devs will know how to make good use of edram.
Maybe not the best, but they might get there.

Sonys approach is pretty interesting, I wonder if they can re-direct the GPU memory into RAM or vice versa
theWB27  +   451d ago
So basically what is being said developers preferred the unified architecture like a certain system did 8 years ago? Cerny built a much more advanced version of it. Very powerful version. Check..now this unified approach is being praised like it's new.

Wow...go get your praise Cerny : )
MasterCornholio  +   451d ago
Well if you study the specifications of 7th generation systems none of them had a unified memory architecture. The PS3 memory was split up with DDR3 and XDR memory while the Wii and the Xbox 360 had their memory split up between DDR3 memory and eSram.

With the 8th generation of consoles the only system with a unified memory architecture is the PS4 with one pool of GDDR5 ram while the Xbox One uses DDR3 ram with eSram and the Wii U uses DDR3 with edram and esram.

Motorola RAZR i
theWB27  +   451d ago
The architecture that sits beneath the processor is rather radical, and it's something that, quite honestly, we're still trying to get our heads around. Rather than using separate graphics and system memory, it appears that the Xbox 360 uses a unified memory architecture that splits the memory as it needs. The actual memory itself is GDDR3, the same stuff you'll find on the latest graphics boards from ATI. There's no physics processing unit, which is something that was rumoured a while back. Instead, Microsoft are banking on the triple-core to handle those kinds of calculations. We are rather unlikely to see this kind of shared memory architecture in PCs any time soon, because it would require a substantial redesign of the entire platform, which isn't something that either AMD or Intel are keen to do right now.

Here's the link
http://www.bit-tech.net/col...
wishingW3L  +   450d ago
This is ridiculous, theWB27 has 16 disagrees for stating a fact while MasterCornholio has 10 agrees for being wrong and writing nonsense. N4G users should be ashamed of themselves, that's some hardcore fanboyism and denial right there. -__-

The PS3 had 256MB of GDDR3 for GPU and 256MB of XDR for CPU. The X360 had a unified pool of 512MB of GDDR3 with some edRam to boost the overall bandwidth but it didn't work that well so most devs used the edRam for free x4 MSAA. The funny thing is that they are committing the same mistake again with the XB1's unified pool of DDR3 with some esRam to boost bandwidth.

BTW GDDR3 and DDR3 are not the same thing!
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Bigpappy  +   450d ago
'Master' you got pieces of your info confused. 360 had 100% unified RAM. 'theWB' is correct. eSRAM in the 360 was only there to cache and increase bandwidth. It is not split memory like PC3.
TheHardware  +   451d ago
Why would that matter? GDRR5 wasn't done, 8 gigs weren't done, and didn't the ps2 have unified ram? havent computers used unified ram forever? ooooohhh I wonder where Microsoft got the idea from...ooooohhhh

how silly can we be on these forums.
theWB27  +   451d ago
No it didn't. Don't know about CPU's. But CPU's are custom machines so are they really comparable to closed systems? No. Yea...the systems are becoming more like PC's in structure I hear.

I won't argue about wondering where Microsoft got the idea from since..lo behold they've always worked with computer architecture. So is it strange they've always mimicked that structure? Until now where they've gone a lot more custom with the X1. Didn't think that had to be pointed out but owell.
DivineAssault  +   451d ago
Mark Cerny took every single step possible to make PS4 the best nx gen console possible & achieved just that.. Best design, best controller, best specs, & best price..Too bad M$ doesnt have passionate people working for them that go the extra mile like he did.. The only thing M$ people are passionate about is getting money out of its customers in every way..

Unlike PS controllers that have internal lithium batteries, xbox controllers need AA batteries (wasting money every time they run out) unless you buy a play n charge kit from em (giving them more money).. Storage space on PS4 can be upgraded but the xbox requires you to buy a HDD from them (giving them more money) because its proprietary.. PS4 offers online features other than multiplayer for free but xbox requires xblg (giving them more money) just to use netflix & other various apps online.. Indie devs can self publish on PS4 but not on xbox (giving them more money).. The list goes on & on..

The point is that M$ made a decent machine but theyre a greedy company & tries to milk everyone.. Especially with xbox one.. Forcing people to pay an extra $100 for a bundled in camera (giving them more money) cuz it wont work without kinect plugged in.. Well, they wont be getting a damn cent from me nx gen.. Im sticking with Sony & Nintendo only until i see some major changes take place..
#7 (Edited 451d ago ) | Agree(25) | Disagree(6) | Report | Reply
theWB27  +   451d ago
So your point is...that's why Microsoft isn't a company selling off assets and didn't have to give the boss a bonus for finally not operating in the red.
stuna1  +   451d ago
So since they are the cream of the crop (Microsoft), why are they restructuring? Because obviously someone seems to think that they are not handling things as they should!

Just because someone enjoys licking Microsoft boots, doesn't mean everyone should enjoy licking their boots.
theWB27  +   451d ago
@stuna1
They're restructuring because Steve Ballmer is shifting the companies focus...not because the company is operating at the disastrous losses that Sony was for what, 5 or so years. They aren't selling off buildings and splitting divisions so it "appears" things are that much better.

http://www.techspot.com/new...

So since they are a better business than(Sony)why aren't they selling off the business? Because obviously someone was blatantly not handling things the same way they were at Sony!!

Just because someone enjoys not knowing what they're talking about, doesn't mean everyone should enjoy not knowing what they're talking about.

I don't mind you trying to be clever. Just be better at it next time. I won't comment on the licking boots cause quite honestly you don't know me. PS3/360 owner...planning the same this upcoming gen. Enjoy your day stuna1.
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stuna1  +   451d ago
The licking of the boots comment wasn't directed at you in general! But in response to not knowing what I'm talking about, I know fully well what what I'm talking about, since I do have Microsoft stock! I won't go into details, but in this time frame I'll just say that a lot of the big investors are not as happy as some may perceive! Especially after the backlash they are receiving about their gaming division as well as the NSA leak.
GrandTheftZamboni  +   450d ago
@theWB27
Just because MS is good at one thing such as selling their OS doesn't mean they are successful at everything else they do. If MS didn't have Windows and Office they wouldn't exist. There would be no Xbox.
Picture_Dancer  +   450d ago
Bubble up, because it is "well said"
Lwhit6  +   451d ago
Soooo from my understanding there isnt much of a difference between GDDR5 and GDDR3? Except that GDDR5 is easier for developers to produce games for?
Abriael  +   451d ago
I'm not exactly sure where you read that. There's a rather big difference between GDRR5 and GDRR3, but this doesn't even talk about GDRR3.
#8.1 (Edited 451d ago ) | Agree(16) | Disagree(0) | Report | Reply
Tundra  +   451d ago
GDDR5 makes it easier to run a game at higher resolution with added effects such as super sampling, Anti-Aliasing, AF, higher res textures, etc without performance hits.

GDDR5 pretty much doubles the memory bandwidth of GDDR3 under the same conditions with RAM clock speed and the bit-bus.
stuna1  +   451d ago
@Tundra

Isn't lower wattage another added benefit!?
Pandamobile  +   451d ago
It's not GDDR5 vs GDDR3. GDDR3 is ancient. It's DDR3.
Ulf  +   450d ago
...and DDR3 has much lower latency under those conditions. Meaning a CPU spends less time waiting on uncached data to arrive from memory with DD3 than GDDR5.

That's why there are these two varieties of memory in modern PCs -- GDDR5 is best suited for massively parallel data shuffling -- like the kind needed for parallel graphics pipelines. DDR3 is better suited for small, random data fetches -- the kind you'd do in a normal computer program.

GDDR5 isn't all roses, unless the clock is high enough to compensate for the latency issue. Given that the PS4 uses a small case, and a mobile CPU/GPU design, I highly doubt they will clock the GDDR5 fast enough to match the better latency of DDR3. Bandwidth is everything for some games -- the kind with relatively little physics and AI. Physics doesn't require bandwidth as much as it does massive number crunching power, and AI wants boolean logic operations and lots of conditionals, making it really unsuitable for GPUs.

People will disagree with me for saying this truth (because they don't understand past the numbers marketing professionals spout at them), but the XB1 is actually going to have an easier time with game logic, AI, and possibly some kinds of physics (broadphase and midphase work), than the PS4, thanks to this decision. The PS4, on the other hand, will have a lot of graphics advantages, with a well designed pipeline.

I'm curious to see how the MS ESRAM works into this -- the CPU side bandwidth is apparently 192 GB/s, but if the GPU-side is 1088 GB/s... wow. A smart graphics programmer could really do some serious work with that, as long as the work doesn't use too awful much memory. The first thing that comes to mind, for me, is that the PS4 may have an easier time with 1080p.. at least at 30 Hz (and shadows, high rez depth renders, etc.), whereas the XB1 may actually outperform the PS4 at 720p and 60 Hz, thanks to the outrageous to-GPU speed of the ESRAM, and the ensuing much more efficient use of the GPU (some kinds of post-processing work?).

Like Cerny says though, it'll take some skill to get at that power. However, the 360 GPU has a very similar design feature, so there are a lot of graphics programmers already familiar with the concept.
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Tundra  +   450d ago
@Stuna1

Higher wattage consumption is really only an issue if heat generation is not to the manufacturers satisfaction or if you have an unsuitable PSU for your wattage consumption.

@Ulf

The innate performance advantages due to GDDR5 having higher timing is probably over exaggerated. Due to the console having a pretty simplified OS, the CPU isn't being taxed from multiple applications fighting for threads/cores like a PC.

I doubt you'd see a big hit in performance over latency timings.

About ESRAM. It sounds like it'll be for frame buffer storage. Due to not needing refresh periods, it could be that much more efficient to have some sort of edge. It would definitely require memory management but it could work. It could effectively relieve the GPU of frequent requests of bandwidth if used as a cache and give a little (a lot) bit more headroom. We pretty much have to take a wait and see approach. If they take advantage of how quick esram is, that's awesome. Remember, there is still a slower and weaker GPU on the Xbox One.

And... I'm not sure I follow how you got 1088GB/s

@Pandamobile

I derped. You're right. It's DDR3.
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Foliage  +   450d ago
it's as if none of you have any freaking idea what you are talking about.

See my response a few comments down to see how the PS4 RAM is ALWAYS running faster than the Xbox One solution. Not to mention that the new figure Microsoft is boasting of their eSRAM running at 192gb/s actually confirms it was downclocked. The max bus bandwidth of their eSRAM is 102gb/s; if still running at 800MHz.

Microsoft are claiming it is possible for it to perform bi-directionally (read and write at the same time); that is where they get their 192gb/s figure. The problem is that the math doesn't add up; to calculate the bi-directional specs you simply multiply by 2 the gb/s. It should be 204gb/s NOT 192gb/s.

What this actually means:
instead of 102gb/s from 800MHz (800MHz x 128 Bytes = 102gb/s)

Their system actually runs at 96gb/s from 750MHz (750MHz x 128 Bytes = 96gb/s)

If you muddy your figures (like Microsoft is trying; to hide their inferior hardware) by multiplying the 96gb/s by 2 to represent bi-directional ability; you get the new magical 192gb/s figure.

No kidding they will not reveal a spec sheet and have been telling everyone that "specs don't matter".

DOWWNCLOCKING HAS BEEN CONFIRMED. More bad news for the Xbox One crowd; as the over-heating and downclocking rumours mentioned over the last months are now 100% confirmed.

Suddenly that huge external power brick; large box; along with that hideously large fan all make sense. Their eSRAM was overheating.

That proves the RAM downclock. As for latency; that has always been overblown by individuals who don't know what latency even means. The PS4 solution handles latency a heck of a lot better.

The Xbox One is believed to have 12ns of latency; versus the PS4 14ns. The key thing to remember is that those figures are strictly based on default clock speed. The PS4 clock actually functions a fair amount faster; so the latency is actually less than the Xbox One.

It's like having two cars race; who have relatively similar lap speeds; but one of them (the PS4) is given a NOS boost for the final race.

It's also a complete non-issue as latency is only a factor for the first byte of memory; all subsequent memory relies on bandwidth; in which the PS4 is 2.5x faster than the Xbox One. A difference of 2nano seconds on a single byte of data for the first time the RAM is utilized; makes absolutely 0 difference.
#8.2.5 (Edited 450d ago ) | Agree(10) | Disagree(3) | Report
Lwhit6  +   450d ago
Okay thanks that helped a bit. I'm just super confused on what the difference between them is. The only thing ive heard is that GDRR5 is better.
kenshiro100  +   450d ago
My God Foliage, relax with the common sense. You're going to give people heartattacks.
SpinalRemains138  +   451d ago
Pretty informative and makes sense to a layman.

They're basically stressing immediate yields versus mastering new techniques to have higher yields years later.

Finally PS fans will not have to wait 4 years into the lifecycle to see the best the platform has to offer, and hopefully the better games will take less dev time and we will get the games quicker after reading about previews and rumors.

It really is a 180 in their approach.
smokeyjoekenobi  +   451d ago
Good news if true, but I hope devs like Guerrilla can squeeze more than 30fps out of their games further down the line.
SpinalRemains138  +   451d ago
I'm fairly confident we are going to see a large increase in the amount of 60 fps gameplay.

Its not a deal breaker by any means, but the better framerate is nice. I'm definitely thinking we will see a healthy amount of higher fps games this Gen.
REDAVUTSTUVADER  +   451d ago
this article actually prove xbox one and wii u with their on chip memory have a boosted memory setup
SpinalRemains138  +   450d ago
No.

What it shows is that the proposed ps4 model did.

Xbox One does not have the same amount of RAM, nor the quality of RAM.

Why do you say the WiiU and Xbox have more of a boost?
REDAVUTSTUVADER  +   451d ago
HERE ARE THE FACTS DO THE MATH
SONY has Internal suggestions to split up company
Sony investors and board spoke during june to split up sony
http://seekingalpha.com/art...

and Kaz spoke of this in may interview
http://www.youtube.com/watc...
VforVideogames  +   451d ago
Who cares about all this non sense, FORZA is the king of racing sim and at 1080P and 60FPS who gives a $h!t what sony says or thinks!!!
Felonycarclub8  +   450d ago
Lmfao sorry but we all know who the real king is and that is GT, and yeah you are right forza is a racing sim but an arcade racing sim, now Drive club is a more of a competitor to forza 5 they are both arcade racing games not GT, gran Turismo is on a class of its own. And I'll bet you that drive club will outsell forza 5 cause we all know forza can't compete with GT in sales, and we know forza 5 won't beat GT6.
VforVideogames  +   450d ago
Yeah GT was on a class of its own until FORZA came, IMO GT lost to FORZA because lack of innovation since GT3 you play the first 3 GT and the rest is the same just eye candy, FORZA on the other hand gets better and better, maybe FORZA cant compete on sales to GT but that doesn't mean that its not a better racing sim IMO, you said that "we" GT its the king on racing gams but you don't know that because iasume you only play GT, may be is the king on PS but FORZA RULES THEM ALL hands down, WELCOME TO THE DARK SIDE.
Felonycarclub8  +   450d ago
GT is a racing simulator and forza is an arcade racing simulator big difference so GT is still on a class of its own, that's why it kills forza in sales. GT hasn't lost to forza and it never will since they are two different types of games, one is a sim : GT and the other forza : arcade. GT is one of the reasons some people buy playstation you will never hear someone say oh I am going to buy an Xbox to play forza, so how can forza rules them all hands down. Just be glad that Microsoft makes a racing game and I have played forza my friend is an xbot and even he knows GT is the king. GRAN TURISMO THE REAL DRIVING SIMULATOR
REDAVUTSTUVADER  +   451d ago
Before you say I'm crazy or sound foolish check these facts then judge me

THE XBOX ONE ESRAM IS 192 GBS not 102gbs according to devs plus ram gbs bringing total system band with to almost 300 gbs (yes you add ram mem banwith to embed bandwith thats how cerny got 1000gbs above) ps4 =176gbs
according to devs=
http://www.eurogamer.net/ar...

that doesn't even count the 4 move engines. why do you think Xbox One and Wii U have Games coming out that are 1080p at 60fps. It's because they both have embedded memory on chip just like Wii and Xbox 360 had, so devs already know how to use on chip memory, it's been going on for the last 8 years on the 360.

at E3 XB1 HARDWARE WAS RUNNING KI3 AND FORZA 5 1080p@60 fps

http://www.eurogamer.net/ar...

XB1 DEV KITS RAN TITANFALL,BATTLE FIELD 4, COD GHOST 1080P@60FPS

EVEN Wii U was running mario kart and smash bros 1080p@ 60fps
http://kotaku.com/the-defin...

SMASH BROS
http://mynintendonews.com/2...

bayonetta 2, smash bros, and more games on Wii U 1080p 60fps
http://playeressence.com/dr...

Sony first party barely 30fps on ps4 hardware
http://www.eurogamer.net/ar...

lets not forget AC4 OVER HEATING THE PS4 HARDWARE AT E3
https://twitter.com/WithinR...

The end results matter, not wordplay.
wishingW3L  +   450d ago
Titanfall and the likes were running on a PC with Nvidia cards and Intel, so expect the final product to not look as good. The embedded memory is not as miraculous as you think either if not Cerny would have used that set up instead but he didn't.

At the end of the day this is the reality:

"ESRAM is designed for high-bandwidth graphics elements like shadowmaps, lightmaps, depth targets and render targets. But in a world where Killzone: Shadow Fall is utilising 800MB for render targets alone, how difficult will it be for developers to work with just 32MB of fast memory for similar functions?" -Eurogamer

http://www.eurogamer.net/ar...
#13.1 (Edited 450d ago ) | Agree(3) | Disagree(2) | Report | Reply
Ulf  +   450d ago
I think the 800MB number is kind of a "shock" number, which probably includes multi-frame render targets, like dynamic reflection and shadow maps rendered for different portions of a map as you approach them. More of a "neato feature" thing than a performance thing.

Shock journalism. 32MB is actually pretty decent for ESRAM, IMO.
#13.1.1 (Edited 450d ago ) | Agree(3) | Disagree(0) | Report
Foliage  +   450d ago
You're quite wrong; the 192gb/s figure is a complete and utter PR attempt to fog up the fact that the Xbox One is far inferior on the spec sheet. Their eSRAM is not capable of more than ~133gb/s; they even went on record as stating that no internal test has ever passed that mark. That is being generous; the actual peak performance is closer to 102gb/s. The 192gb/s is adding read and write together; which their own math does not add up. If they are using a 192gb/s figure; they are actually confirming that they have downclocked their hardware. That in itself is incredibly worrisome; as reports leading up to this release were that they were struggling with overheating and would need to downclock.

A little lesson for you; I will try to keep it as non-technical as possible; as a lot of this seems to be going over your head.

The eSRAM in the Xbox One has a maximum bus bandwidth of 102gb/s; if you calculate a new ability to read/write at the same time; that presented badnwidth should equate to 204gb/s NOT 192gb/s. 192gb/s actually indicate that their performance was downclocked from 800MHz to 750MHz (simple math: 800MHz x 128 Bytes = 102,000 (ie 102gb/s) / versus 750MHz x 128 Bytes = 96,000 (ie 96gb/s). Now multiply the 96gb/s x2 to represent their new figure of calculating bandwidth off READ and WRITE; you get 192gb/s.

Microsoft didn't confirm that they have more bandwidth in this announcement; they have actually confirmed that they have downgraded their performance from 800MHz to just 750MHz. In true Microsoft fashion; they tried to hide it by this marketing BS about the eSRAM being b-directional and multiplying the 96gb/s figure by 2 (to get 192gb/s; instead of 204gb/s; if there was no downclock).

It's just another slap in the face; they tried covering up by fogging their specs with adding READ and WRITE speeds together; as they claim they have discovered the eSRAM to be able to function bidirectionally.

PS4 RAM is still 176gb/s with no tricks needed to make that figure larger.

Here is a further breakdown; I'll use the 102gb/s figure; before Microsoft confirmed their write ability was downclocked to just 96gb/s:

The specs clearly point to PS4 as being the clear winner:

PS4:

GDDR5 - 8GB RAM / 7GB of which are usable by gaming @ 176gb/s

Xbox One:

DDR3 (much slower; GDDR5 is 2.5x faster) - 8GB RAM / 5 GB of which
are usable for gaming (3 GB is locked to the bulky Xbox One OS) @
68.2gb/s
+
A very tiny pool of eSRAM - 32MB @ 102gb/s

Let's convert those figures to MB and focus on the RAM available for gaming; excluding any locked to the OS:

PS4:
GDDR5 - 7,000MB @ 176gb/s

Xbox One:
DDR3 - 5,000MB @ 68.2gb/s
+
eSRAM - 32MB @ 102 gb/s

It's not even close; the PS4 is MUCH faster and has MUCH more RAM.

Even if you want to pretend that miniscule 32MB of RAM is functioning at 192gb/s; that's a drop in a bucket compared to 8,000MB always functioning at 176gb/s. The second you have more than 32MB in memory; you dip into the slow DDR3 RAM running at 68gb/s. OUCH!
#13.2 (Edited 450d ago ) | Agree(9) | Disagree(2) | Report | Reply
jlemdon  +   450d ago
and you work for M$ as to why you know all of this???
Foliage  +   450d ago
Another clear indicator that you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about is your reference to "move engines". The PS4 would have absolutely NO USE for them.

Their 8GB of GDDR5 RAM (@ 176gb/s) is available in a single unified pool of memory.

The Xbox One has 8GB of DD3 RAM (@ 68gb/s); which is one pool of memory; with a much smaller second pool of 32MB of eSRAM memory (the 32MB of eSRAM memory is what was being discussed as to having 102gb/s). As you need to push data between both pools; you have move engines set up between them.

The move engines have no benefit to making performance better; if anything; it's just another step in a system that will already have bottleneck troubles. That's the WHOLE point of the move engines; to MOVE content between the RAM pools.

What the heck did you think they were used towards? PS4 has a single unified pool of memory; so they don't have to create extra solutions to avoid bottlenecks. The content on the PS4 has constant access to their memory at 176gb/s. The Xbox One needs the move engines to take advantage of the 102gb/s eSRAM; to avoid relying on the much slower 68gb/s DDR3 RAM. The downside again being that the eSRAM is only 32MB in size. In this modern generation of gaming; file sizes are far too large to break down into 32MB chunks.

To summarize:
PS4 - Memory always performing at 176gb/s
Xbox One - Needs move engines to get content into the small 32MB pool of memory at 102gb/s (still much slower than 176gb/s GDDR5); otherwise content is in their DDR3 RAM at a slow 68gb/s

PS4 ALWAYS performs faster; versus Xbox One performing slow for the first 32MB of data in memory; then MUCH slower (2.5x slower than the PS4) for the rest of the 8,000MB of data in memory.

Ouch.
Oner  +   450d ago
Basically the PS4's 176GB/s available to all 8GB at all times beats XBone's "theoretical" 192GB/s bottle necked to only 32MB eSRAM (Buffer Storage Memory) then out to the 68gb/s DDR3 RAM with the Move Engines.
#13.3.1 (Edited 450d ago ) | Agree(2) | Disagree(0) | Report
edgeofsins  +   450d ago
Their "dev kits" at e3 were gaming PC's, even in popular pc gaming cases. Pretty sure according to the super high specs of those pc's and the kind of build and opposing brands used for the parts they weren't true dev kits.
jlemdon  +   451d ago
@Starchild, the only thing is that PS4 have a 7850 card. and the Xbox1 has 192GBS while 176... just to let you know.
kohlgamer  +   450d ago
Wrong
toshan  +   450d ago
PS4 is so cool!!
shame on the xbox one
kewlkat007  +   450d ago
Pros and Cons of why we went with this instead of that..only time will tell, when the games take advantage.

The average mom/dad knows nothing about this when it comes to buying a console. It will be about the games for the majority.
MasterCornholio  +   450d ago
Actually mom and dads buying a console for their kids will be more concerned with price than anything else and at the moment the Wii U is the cheapest followed by the PS4 and then the Xbox One.

However if their kids ask foe a specific console well that's something else entirely.

Motorola RAZR i
kewlkat007  +   450d ago
Yes, I agree price to a certain extent..If your kids like this game or such games on {this console}, I doubt his parents buy something else he will never play because it was cheaper. I see it happen all the time.
khuram_f6  +   450d ago
Ps4 preordered, xbox one maybe next year.
VforVideogames  +   450d ago
X-ONE pre-ordered, PS4 maybe in 4 years.
REDAVUTSTUVADER  +   450d ago
For everyone who says 32MB OF SRAM is to small, it's almost three times the sram in AMD's Raedon 7970 lots of people on this site and even digital foundry as well as many other sites said 32mb is too small, they don't know what they are talkng about. I do, I have proof

SRAM IN XBOX ONE IS 32MB
SRAM IN AMD Radeon™ HD 7970 AROUND 12MB SEE PG 16
http://www.amd.com/us/Docum...
WII u 32MB EDRAM
ps4 = none
all sources provided in comment #13
everyone who replied to my comment in #13 totaly ignored the performance of games from the XB1 AND Wii U OUT PERFORMING the PS4 at E3.

The XB1 had 2 games running on final hardware at 1080p 60fps, I provide the source(see comment #13) the others were on devkits, I say this in the comments #13, (it's normal to run games on dev kit's at E3),

and the Wii U had multiple games running at 1080p 60 fps on hardware.

PS4 first party had no games running at 1080p 60fps ,many had problems hitting 30fps even KNACK had problems running at 30fps, on PS4 HARDWARE. SEE COMMENT 13 FOR ALL LINKS

You attack my info on the memory setups, but can't prove me wrong when looking at the three systems performance.
#19 (Edited 450d ago ) | Agree(2) | Disagree(3) | Report | Reply
seepamann  +   450d ago
GDDR5 will make better future for gamers in ps4
kryteris  +   450d ago
I dont see how this is better, given that devs. have learned how to program already with edram on the 360 its not far behind. Ill agree that it will make it easier for pc f2p titles to transfer over.

I have not yet seen how the 176gb will be accessed given that the hard drive could go on average 100-140mb/s. Unless they create a ramdisk with some of the extra memory. I really dont know how either (ps4/x1) is any better) when you have to solve how to get all that data moving off the disc or hard drive into the ram.
bligmerk  +   450d ago
The point a lot of people miss is this is an APU, a GPU and CPU on one die. This means the CPU and GPU communicate almost directly with each other, rather than across some external bus. Also, it's probably not obvious to everybody that the system architecture is departing from the several decade Wintel segmented memory architecture. In addition with the companion chip, the PS4 system architecture, may be the direction PC's are going. Of course a PC with a $1000 graphics card is going to run circles around this next generation of consoles. But having 1080p as the baseline for the next gen consoles, and that the main displays are 1080p HDTV's, along with the console environment of comfortable chair or couch in front of a very big screen, will be a big improvement for console gaming.
microgenius  +   449d ago
i dont know why in every ps4 related article pc fans feel so insecured
yes pc is awesome now go and play a game graphically on par with THE LAST OF US with a pc that has built in 2006

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