(Spoiler Warning) According to creative director Neil Druckmann, the game's ending was originally meant to strike a different emotional chord.
Well I like the lie. It can start a new sequel and have an starting place. It's really good as it was.
Definitely don't want a sequel with the same characters. Their story has ended. A sequel to them would seem tacked on. Would love a new sequel with new people though!
See, im not sure about that. I really really liked these characters so it would be weird for me to go back to this world...and not see Joel or Ellie..
I honestly don't want a sequel if Joel and Ellie aren't in it. If they want the story to end here, fine. I'm happy with that. But if they make a TLOU2 with different characters it'll make the first game seem like it was for nothing. I think this IP should be remembered for these two characters and for these two characters only.
Easy way around that would be to have one of the docs or other characters that know about ellie to go looking for her to finish the job so to speak, that way new characters are introduced and you would still get to see joel and ellie, maybe the fungus gets more agresive or a father wants to cure his offspring? There could be plenty of ways around not using joel and ellie as the main characters, although i would rather play as them again myself, maybe a split campain?
I like the lie because it shows that Joel is not good or bad , he's human . I have never had so many mixed thoughts about any character in the history of video games and movies .The decision he made will always trouble me , And I love it . TLOU may not have been the Best survival horror game I've ever played , but it had the best character development , story , and ending I've ever seen .
Read about this before. Glad they stuck with the ending we've got now.
The ending they went with was perfect in my opinion.
You've got to love the fact that Elle as a character had developed so much that the devs themselves, couldn't really bring her to *SPOILER WARNING* accept the lie that Joel tells.
I think this is a game that doesnt need to be dragged down by a sequel. It would take away from the epic ending of this game. I personally dont want to see another one. As awesome as this game is...
Agreed. Let ND keep Uncharted, but make a new IP for the ps4. People need to let them experiment instead of asking for sequels all the time.
I respectfully disagree . I don't want to see a direct sequel , but I definitely want them to do another TLOU. There are more people to explore other then Ellie and Joel . Maybe New survivors , or maybe Joel and Tommie's tale of survival , from what Tommie said Him and Joel went through a lot together .
Whether it be a sequel or prequel I still feel like it will take away from the experience of the original game. Everything isn't meant to keep going and going. The fans doesn't feel like a continuation is in place anyway. let the human race die with joels lie.
*Spoiler Alert* *Spoiler Alert* *Spoiler Alert* "Unable to resolve himself to the loss of the young woman he's come to view as a daughter, he instead fights his way through a hospital filled with people who's only crime is trying to save the world." I hate when it gets painted like that. It's not immoral Joel versus the innocent people trying to save the world. You can't claim the moral high ground if your plan is to murder an innocent little girl. By denying humanity a cure, Joel saved humanity. The very fact that humanity was willing to murder a little girl for their own selfish desire to live meant that humanity did not deserve a cure. That's what the whole game is about. The survivors have lost their humanity. They will do inhumane, selfish, things to ensure their survival, pleasure, and power. The pivotal moment that foreshadows Joel's decision to save Ellie, to save the actual humanity of society, is the scene with the giraffes. Despite everything she's been through, Ellie's innocence and humanity shine through in this moment, and Joel even stops to suggest they turn back and not go through with it. At that moment, Ellie demonstrates the best humanity has to offer. How can anyone claiming the moral high ground sacrifice that for a world that has done nothing but hinder their journey the whole way, tried to kill them, tried to rob them, tried to rape them; a world of clans too busy vying for power to band together. What those who condemn Joel fail to recognize is that we've already been down the road of "sacrifice the girl to save humanity." This was done at the beginning of the game, when a decision was made to open fire on a man and his young daughter for the supposed greater good of preventing the infection from spreading to humanity at large. Twenty years later, we see that sacrifice did nothing to save humanity. It began the slippery slope of doing anything to survive evident in the savagery we saw throughout the game. Even if a vaccine could be achieved by sacrificing Ellie, if all the Infected were somehow eliminated, there would still be the matter of these isolated clans of humanity battling for power. The true enemy in the game wasn't the infected. It was the humans.
very interesting post bubble vote for you! what an amazing ending to an amazing game
bubbles for looking at it in a different light. tlou really makes you think deep about what is right and wrong.
I'd have to disagree with some of your arguments, though I do agree the way the article paints the ending is inaccurate. *SPOILERS* The life of one girl vs the lives that would be saved from creating a vaccine make is a classic example of "The needs of the many outway the needs of the few, or the one". To me, Ellie would seem to be on board with this. In both the giraffe scene and the ending scene Ellie seemed willing to do anything to cure the infection. Probably because the game itself goes out of it's way to have every friendly character death be in some way related to someone getting infected. Ellie says herself that all they went through "Can't all be for nothing", it seemed to me that Ellie was prepared to do anything to stop the infection that had taken so much from her. I'd pretty much guessed the reveal was going to happen, and I was expecting a Heroic Sacrifice moment from Ellie because of this. Marlene even lampshades this by telling Joel "It's what she'd want, and you know it". True the fireflies had never asked her permission, but neither did Joel, they BOTH disregarded Ellie's opinion in favor of what they wanted. I also disagree with the fact that you assume humanity is unredeemable even with a vaccine. I do agree that the humans are a bigger enemy in this game, but you're pretty much saying it's not worth the lives a vaccine would save because we'd still fight each other. We ALWAYS fought each other, we are still fighting with each other right at this moment, both with guns and bombs, as well as bickering and politcally screwing other companies/countries for our own profit. If even a fraction of the people who'd survive due to a vaccine have a positive effect on this post apocalyptic world, is that worth one girl's life? I don't have the answer to that question, but if there is an answer, I doubt it's a nihilistic view like 'Humans would still suck anyways so why bother'. To be clear I'm trying to argue that my viewpoint is right or morally superior. In fact the reason I love morally gray stories is that you can have radically different opinions. That your experiences, and the experience of others, can make you reexamine your moral compass by putting you in situations with no right answer.
Part 1 *SPOILERS* "The needs of the many outway the needs of the few, or the one" 1) There is an argument to be made for quantity vs quality. The life of one girl is not justly forfeit for the sake of those that would have her murdered to save their own skins. 2) You assume what the many truly "need" is a vaccine, when their true need is a restoration of their humanity. As stated previously, the game has already shown us what happens when a girl is sacrificed for the needs of the many. Humanity went down a slippery slope and started treating each other as the enemy. Selfish decisions in the name of survival became acceptable. It is no coincidence that both girls were to be sacrificed for the same reason: to prevent further spread of the infection. Once the decision was made to murder an innocent girl, to sacrifices humanity to save humanity, all was lost. "...Ellie would seem to be on board with this." Under ideal circumstances, in a normal world, you can't ask a child, whose brain is not yet fully developed, to make such a decision. This is especially true when dealing with a child that grew up knowing nothing but a post-apocalyptic world, suffering from survivors guilt, fear of being left alone, and who knows how many other mental traumas. "True the fireflies had never asked her permission, but neither did Joel, they BOTH disregarded Ellie's opinion in favor of what they wanted." This is a fallacy I've seen before. It doesn't matter what Joel asked. Ellie never agreed to it. There are lots of potential questions that can be asked. You don't get to assume permission, or an affirmative response, because she never said "no" to a question that was never asked. Can you imagine if your daughter had an accident at the pool and you arrived at the hospital to learn they were prepping her for surgery that would kill her because they found some genetic abnormality within her that could lead to a drug to prevent obesity and associated illnesses? Oh, and because she technically never said she was against dying for the cause, the whole time she was unconscious, they're going to go ahead and assume she'd be down with it. (continued in part 2)
Part 2 *Spoilers* "I also disagree with the fact that you assume humanity is unredeemable even with a vaccine." Wrong. I don't assume anything. The proof is in the action. A redeemable humanity wouldn't try to murder a kid to save their own bacon. The very actions they took to get the vaccine prove they are currently unworthy of receiving one. "I do agree that the humans are a bigger enemy in this game, but you're pretty much saying it's not worth the lives a vaccine would save because we'd still fight each other." Correct, in addition to my primary argument that it is not humane to begin with. Does it really matter if humans are dying because of the monsters that lost their humanity because of spores or if they die because of the monsters that willing gave up their humanity in the name of survival? As you agreed, the bigger problem is the humans. Can they be redeemed? Possibly, but murdering an innocent child isn't anywhere on the road to redemption. "We ALWAYS fought each other, we are still fighting with each other right at this moment, both with guns and bombs, as well as bickering and politcally screwing other companies/countries for our own profit." The purpose of any good story—even the most fantastical ones—is to make you relate and reflect on the real world in some way. "If even a fraction of the people who'd survive due to a vaccine have a positive effect on this post apocalyptic world, is that worth one girl's life?" So now your arguing for the needs of the few over the needs of the few? And the answer is "no." It's really simple: You cannot save humanity by abandoning humanity. "Humanity," that spark of life and innocence that Ellie managed to maintain through the dark times is the real gift and "vaccine" the world needs.
1) The word 'just' has no place in this debate. The people who are in that facility are NOT the only people who would benefit from a vaccine. You say that the Fireflies attempting to kill don't deserve the vaccine because of what they've done, but what about every single other person who would recieve the vaccine? What about Tommy's group? Do they not deserve a vaccine because the people who came up with the cure were morally questionable? Are all the people who would benefit from a vaccine just shit-out-of-luck because some doctors were morally shady? Which brings me to- 2) Yes I do assume that a vaccine is what's needed. 'Humanity' doesn't protect the infected and the impact they've had in reducing this world back to savagery, finding a vaccine and/or wiping out the infected would make the world a safer place, and help humanity to rebuild. Once civilization can be established without the fear of one open door leading to the destruction of your entire colony, once humanity no longer has to do 'anything' to survive, we can focus on improving peoples lives instead of merely making sure they continue. Furthermore Ellie isn't inept, she's seen tons of death and is given a means to stop it. She may be a child, but she grew up in a world that makes her grow up quickly. She understands loss, and knows that EVERYONE in this world has suffered due to infection, not just her. I have a hard time believing Ellie isn't capable of making her own decisions by this point. "You don't get to assume permission, or an affirmative response, because she never said "no" to a question that was never asked." What's your point here? I said both Joel AND Marlene didn't give Ellie to option to make a choice, and I'm condemning both. The point is Joel made the decision that "Ellie is not going to die to create a vaccine", and acted because of that. None of what he did was respecting Ellie's will any more than what the Fireflies did. If he DID respect Ellie's wishes, he would've told her the truth after their initial escape and let her make a decision about whether to go back. Instead, he lies to her about there being no cure. "Wrong. I don't assume anything. The proof is in the action. A redeemable humanity wouldn't try to murder a kid to save their own bacon." That idea that any act is unredeemable is an assumption in and off itself... Furthermore Marlene and the Fireflies are not trying to 'save their own bacon' they are trying to come up with a vaccine for a sickness that affects the entire world. Whether the lives it'd save is worth the life of a child is something very hard to objectively debate, but it's obvious they don't want to kill her solely to help extend their own lives.
"The purpose of any good story—even the most fantastical ones—is to make you relate and reflect on the real world in some way." I'm not sure I understand you... Are you saying that we as a society have lost all humanity already? Because wow that's incredibly pessimistic. So now your arguing for the needs of the few over the needs of the few? And the answer is "no." It's really simple: You cannot save humanity by abandoning humanity. I used that as an example, if the vaccine saves the lives of 5 people who would've died without it, people who would go on to do real good that wold improve the lives of many others survivors, then was that worth the sacrifice? That's being conservative, and doesn't mention all the parents whose children don't die from infected, or children who get to grow up with their parents. How can we meaningfully weigh the value of a life? It's a question we've been asking for millenia, and we aren't any closer to solving it. The world isn't as simply as saying "Did you kill a child? Yes? Then regardless of any possible reason, you are inhuman and everything relating to it, even a neutral medical compound, is also tainted by association." "Humanity," that spark of life and innocence that Ellie managed to maintain through the dark times is the real gift and "vaccine" the world needs." Why? Based on what you said above society both today and in TLOU lacks humanity. However the vaccine is something only Ellie can deliver, humanity is something any decent human being can display. A vaccine being around provides a tangible benefit that saves lives. A 'spark of life and innocence' being around might make you feel a bit better. And even if she somehow is the only person with humanity left and needs to stay alive because of it, how does she distribute that? Vaccines can be distributed via couriers and in vials en-masse. Ellie can do what exactly? Walk around to different settlements and give sermons? Unless Ellie has the ability to somehow make people better simply by existing, I can't how her surviving benefits anyone except the people she directly lives with.
On my last bubble so I gotta keep it short. *Spoilers* "Just" absolutely has a place in a debate about whether Joel was right to do what he did. If you wish to remove "just" from the equation then you really have no standing for arguing what would be right or wrong. You ever consider that maybe a solution could have already been found had society's first reaction not been to go into self preservation mode and start shooting each other? What's needed is humanity. Don't even have the space to debate the iffy proposition of actually attaining and distributing a workable vaccine. As far as me being pessimistic—you were the one that first made the connection between humanity in the game and in the real world. You obviously thought there was a valid comparison to be made before you arrived at a pessimistic conclusion from that reflection. If you don't like what you see in the world, do something to change it, even if it is something as simple as your own conduct. To wrap it up, any life that would be fine with obtaining a vaccine by murdering a little girl really isn't a life worth saving.
Bubbles do kind of limit debate eh? I'll try to keep in mind I'm talking to someone who can't talk back in this. '"Just" absolutely has a place in a debate about whether Joel was right to do what he did. If you wish to remove "just" from the equation then you really have no standing for arguing what would be right or wrong.' Every person acting in the ending felt justified that what they were doing was right. What justice is changes depending on the environment and culture you live in. Just look at the death penalty in the US, some states think it's justified because of the heinous crimes, others don't. We could talk about whether a character thinks what he's doing is just, but we don't have a worldwide set of parameters that lays out what justice is, so the debate on justice is inherently subjective. "You ever consider that maybe a solution could have already been found had society's first reaction not been to go into self preservation mode and start shooting each other? What's needed is humanity. Don't even have the space to debate the iffy proposition of actually attaining and distributing a workable vaccine." No I didn't, because I have no idea what society did after the outbreak occured. There may have been concentrated efforts to research a vaccine, but they Cordyceps hadn't mutated like in Ellie so it failed. Then again maybe they could've found a vaccine earlier like you say. At the end of the day we aren't given any real information about what happened during that time beyond some vague statements during the title song. "As far as me being pessimistic—you were the one that first made the connection between humanity in the game and in the real world. You obviously thought there was a valid comparison to be made before you arrived at a pessimistic conclusion from that reflection. If you don't like what you see in the world, do something to change it, even if it is something as simple as your own conduct." "(Earlier)That's what the whole game is about. The survivors have lost their humanity. They will do inhumane, selfish, things to ensure their survival, pleasure, and power." I pointed out that these inhuman acts have been happening throughout human history, and continue up till this day. The traits you mentioned as heralds of the downfall of humanity have always been around, and yet there have always been good people to offset this. Most of the named characters you meet (Sam, Henry, Tommy) are good people at heart, which means I can't buy that the arrival of the infection somehow erased humanity's good points. In conclusion: The Fireflies were wrong to take an unconcious Ellie and try to kill her and obtain a vaccine, but I don't think that Ellie choosing to die to create a vaccine would be a bad thing. The fact that Joel didn't let her make a decision either leads me to believe that both acts were selfish.
I'm with you on some points except that he's doing a bad thing to achieve a good thing though , the game is not about real world though so it's hard to put logic in it because it's not a perfect world.there are many missing things. sacrifice is by choice and for pure purposes without anything to blame for because what's right is right. That's why i didn't kill anyone in the hospital when i played it. :P Example : Stealing money and then give it to the poor is not something right because you either aim for equal rights or the poor will continue and you may even harm innocent people by stealing. You do what you fight against xD . Masterpiece though.
Not going to lie, I shot all the doctors dead without a second thought. 1, 2, 3, just like that. I didn't even know about all of this stuff where you could have grabbed his scalpel. Never got that far. They were the three that were actually going to murder Ellie. Why wouldn't I shoot them if I shot the soldiers who were just complicit for standing guard, but not getting their hands dirty with the actual murder? Kill the doctors and even if I'm caught, I've at least bought us some time as there is no one else on hand to perform the surgery.
I killed the doctor too XD . I didn't know that i had a choice in there. I went near him but nothing happened . Now when i think about it i didn't try to hit him with my hands. But i think naught dog nailed it. They made each person choose how they want to play.
There aren't many brilliant things said on this site, but this might have been the best of what clever things have been said. Very interesting to look at it in this light. You sold me after thinking what Joel did was wrong. +1
I just love the ending the way it is. It's mature, thoughtful and most importantly, not cliche. I love when developers dare to be different. It was an extremely modest and humble ending (which I absolutely love) to one of the greatest games of this generation. Red Dead Redemption, Bioshock Infinite and this game, redefined the concept of storytelling in video games, and both games had superb endings to their own rights.
Wow...I just mean in short I love how it ended and it could just end there or have another story with Joel/Elle combo.
SPOILERS!!!!!!!!!************ I was a bit dissapointed with the ending honestly, I was hoping for a more cliche the world is going to be okay kind of thing, I was not expecting that Ellie would have to die in the end.
Lovely happy'ish type ending. SOILERS!! The fact that Joel did not want to go a head with Ellie dying for a possible cure, especially since the pain of losing his daughter and growing so attached to Ellie. This makes him human. Now Joel and Ellie living happily (hopefully) in Tommys little community. Nice happy'ish style ending. I would of done the same exact thing in Joels case.
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