In the wake of Microsoft backtracking on some of the draconian online requirements for the Xbox One, the company has been hard at work preparing the world for its next console.
Oh Lord, people talking about what they don't know.. The cloud MS is taking about are just servers... Nothing more than servers. Servers. Servers. We've had them for years! Servers! Battlefield has them! Killzone has them! All MP games have them! Servers! Nothing more! Don't get fooled by MS's PR talk. They're lying and using it as a way to combat PS4's superiority.
dont forget Youtube, netflix, hulu are all cloud based programs
I'd rather not depend on a cloud for my gaming experiences.
[email protected] is a better example as that ran complex algorithms, not sure how it'll improve gaming though.
[email protected] is used to solve diseases and similar things like that, it has nothing to do with gaming.
Still it's same idea use a server computer to help with the work load.
I was under the impression that most MP console games do not have dedicated servers, but instead, have player hosted servers. Am I wrong?
yes P2P (peer 2 peer)
We have had Dedicated servers fow Warhawk, Kilzzone 2, Even Metal Gear Online and All Battlefields too on the ocnsoles. Its just and only the COD which doesn't have dedicated servers and MS seems to be playing on that. Dedicated servers are nothing new for consoles. All PR Bulshit to mislead people.
I don't disagree with you, but there are a ton of console games that use dedicated servers.
What superiority?...lol You guys are only saying that because it's MS cloud servers. If it was sony it would be the greatest thing in the world. Sony only has a cloud streaming service which won't even be ready at launch. Even when they get it up it will only be for US only initially. MS cloud computing servers are just superior.
If those 300k servers can improve my internet bandwidth then I'll buy an Xbone. Else, it's just 300k servers of trash.
MS said it themselves. Xbox360 have 30 thousands and xbox one have 300 thousands"server". Well it's easy to trick people that don't know how things work. You say hard drive not needed for next generation gaming and people will believe you.
The thing is, Sony DOES have that cloud technology. It's called Gaikai. Do you see anyone spazzing out about it as if it's "the greatest thing in the world"? No, because we all know that cloud based gaming, while being a great idea for the future, just isn't reasonable this day and age.
@Reverent Exactly. There's a lot of unanswered questions. For example.. Lets say the cloud does make some sort of improvement... in AI processing for example, which could be potentially offloaded using current cloud processing techniques. What happens if I'm playing co-op and I have awesome internet bandwidth, but my co-op buddy has a much slower connection? How would that impact AI on the enemies we are both seeing simultaneously? How would that impact all these things that people are claiming the cloud will improve? Cloud is a fine idea - but I think it'll be toward the end of this console life cycle that we'll see the advantages (if any) of it. Certainly not on Day 1 in anything but PR BS, or gimmicky marketing bullet points.
Fanboy much? If that's what an extra hundred bucks and $60 a year gets me;I'll pass.
Reverent: gakai cloud and cloud computing is very different. The former is very specific and narrow, and requires for the most part specialized hardware. It is likely costly, and the resource isn't easily found, but rather has to be invested by Sony. It is strictly used to render video game feed and stream it over the internet. Cloud computing on the other hand is the act of offloading computations. This is best done with computing tasks that takes a lot of processing power, but isn't "too" time sensitive. It requires instead an infrastructure to do the computation and a language of sorts to tell it what to do. In short, the power of this for MS is it is creating a way to specify this computation along with the servers needed. You may ask, why can't Sony do this? They can, at a huge cost. Their best bet is to partner with someone like Amazon or Rackspace, but their cost will still be much higher than MS. For MS it just an addition to their existing investment into data warehouses. In addition, MS uses CLR which is commonly used on Windows platform. That is why you will see either almost nil or very limited support for cloud computing from Sony. Sony would rather have the developers carry the cost and do the work as is their history. That is why I firmly believe Gakai will most certainly be a monthly cost. Keeping those servers and streaming video is costly and very bandwidth intensive. Cloud computing on the other hand tends to have very little bandwidth need, but be latency sensitive. I invite you to read more about it here: http://www.reddit.com/r/xbo... @Jdoki: First of all, you design these games to be fault tolerant and offline mode i.e. the game reverts to reduced experience when there is no access to cloud, but once you connect it upgrades the experience by offloading computation and focusing more power on rendering similar to how some games have dynamic resolution switching. It is just common sense, nothing rocket science about it.
@nukeitall My question is about how the system works online with two or more people playing together with differing network speed/quality. There can only be so much fault tolerance. If MS picks a number, like 2Mbit as the baseline requirement for cloud features to work it limits what can be done. If it picks a number such as 10Mbit, then few devs are going to bother taking advantage of it because few people (at the moment) can experience those speeds. And if they actually say the baseline is offline mode, then why bother at all implementing cloud processing. Unless you can guarantee comparative performance in online games then cloud is not a feature worth implementing right now. Also, what about lag in MP games. There's only one pipe from each users console. And that capacity will have to be shared between enabling the MP and transferring cloud data.
"Xbox One’s $700M Data Center Should Help Combat The PS4's Onslaught." Riight its gonna take allot, ALLOT more than MS throwing money at something.
Yep. Heaven forbid they give their users a AAA exclusive that isn't a fps. That's all they have to do. Just have their studios create new ips that really push the envelope, and broaden their base ( Christ I just sounded like Sarah Palin). Doing that will most definitely give the machine more appeal. Right now it's known as the shooter box and ppl are getting sick of shooters.
Just tell people that it's comparable to Sega and Blast Processing, see the similarities? Cloud Processing / Blast Processing < Glass Processing.
Interesting article. I think the key phrase here is "price sensitive consumers". At the end of the day, $100 difference is $100 difference. The economy is getting no better and as Christmas approaches, the prospect of saving $100 is going to appeal to many parents and gamers on budget alike. The amorphous nature of this "Cloud" concept that MS is trying to sell is a bit risky and I doubt it will make a difference to many as the benefits of such a network seem to be highly hypothetical at this point. Concrete examples of the benefits of the "cloud" have not been demonstrated to a degree to really say that you should spend the $100 dollar premium on an X1, plus $60 for live. MS has positioned themselves in a very tight position even before this new generation has started. Not to mention the DRM issue that has dominated the conversation for the past 2 weeks. Will be interesting to see what approach MS ultimately takes prior to the release of their new system. PS4 seems to be riding high on MS' wave of despair.
I sorta said the same a couple of years back when PS3 came out, but it didn't hurt it in the long run with sales. This is not a sprint. The manufacturing process will shrink. Smaller, and slight redesigns will come out cheaper. I bet MS throws in some subsidized SKU for which you can pay monthly with an XBL commitment, sorta like cell phones. At the end of the day both companies want your money, now or later. When you look at what you get with the XB1, your getting the full package on what they system can offer. With the PS4, you would have to add other accessories to complete the package which will cost more. You have to buy PS eye, Move thingy and PSVita to take advantage of all the extras Sony raves about. With less people having these things, devs won't be inclined to support it much. Of course these are optional.
You could say the same thing when the ps3 launched. It had bluray, wifi, usb cord to charge your controller, & was free online but despite all its advantages over the 360. The 360 triumphed in the US because of the cheaper arcade sku which had no wifi no hdd & required batteries to use the controller & guess what happened, ppl bought into it only to fork out alot more at the end of the day. Atleast the ps4 comes with everything u need out the box & even if u buy the camera seperate, it is still cheaper then the xbone so the ps4 is a better value.
thats a very biased outlook there. I could say the same thing about xbox. Watch: with PS4 you get the whole package, with xbox you have to buy overpriced Live (even if all you want to do is watch Netflix), you have to buy smart glass, you have to buy a microphone, you have to buy batteries or else the cables to replace AA batteries. Most importantly at least with Playstation I know I get a full generation's gaming instead of only at the beginning of the generation and the eventual drop off of support for core gamers in favor of applications and casual kinect gaming. PS: you know I find it funny that you're taling about the value in xbox. I guess some people have forgotten who it was that pretty much saved the industry from going down the path Microsoft had planned for us. It was the gamers that decided they wouldn't buy the BS microsoft was catering with the Digital Rights Control. Next time you go to your local Gamestop remember who put value back into the games you bought.
Both companies will streamline manufacturing down the line, it's not goign to be exclusive to ms... but they will always have the Kinect 2.0 millstone keeping their price higher. "your getting the full package on what they system can offer. With the PS4, you would have to add other accessories" - OK, where's the headset in the xbone box? Nobody "has to buy" what you call "pseye and move thingy". And seriously... you *have* to buy a Vita? If that's the case, surely any potential xboner would *have* to buy a smart glass phone or tablet by your logic? Nonsense.
This cloud nonsense cracks me up everytime.Cloud is just a fancy word for server farm.Which hundreds of companies have and have had for years.This is literally doing nothing new and is not even in the same ballpark as what Gaikai is capable of (Gakai has Guisness world record by the way) http://www.eurogamer.net/ar...
I dont see why ppl are disagreeing with you. Sony bought gaikai to give ps4 an overhaul from what were getting free now with psn. It will definitely help the experience for online be alot smoother then what we have now with psn. Atleast sony isnt boasting all this bs that the cloud is where real power comes from not the hardware lol. Microsoft needs to get back to reality. You can think of all this cloud hype as kinect hype.
"I dont see why ppl are disagreeing with you." Because they're holding onto this cloud fantasy as their last hope for MS having a technical advantage. It doesn't seem to register with them that the connection between the user and those servers is more important than the servers themselves.
What interests me the most about Gaikai (from your article) is when they talk about input lag which seems to be a lot better than Onlives. I have a 100 MB internet connection but the input lag from Onlive is extremely noticiable and it ruins the experience for me.
... at the end of the day I'm still not interested spending $100 on some garbage camera I hold no interest in, yet it still is required just to have your console in working state... no thank you M$
$100 extra for an accessory I have no interest in using but is required to hook up...not for me either. For that extra $100 MS could have thrown in a headset (wireless should be standard next gen) but unfortunately they are having Kinect replace that too. I wish MS would quit their Kinect fetish; they're so obsessed with it it's consuming them.
That's two years of PSN Plus which is A LOT of content you get with that.
Maybe it can calculate how to make Xbone cheaper
I'd bet 90-100% of the posters here couldn't fill out a resume and get a engineer job at...anywhere. But they know everything about tech to know that what these guys spend their life doing just isn't real. 700mil dollars went to old tech and nothing has been improved upon. Check!
I... don't think engineering has anything to do with it. That said, most of the pioneers in the IT world are and were self-taught. The best and brightest programmers didn't learn how to do so from school. They learned by dicking around with code in their spare time on POS computers. Not exactly the kinda thing you can put on a resume, now, is it? At the same time, "these guys" you speak of are mostly PR people, which means they've probably got less idea what the hell is going on than you or I do. The few actually qualified individuals talking about the subject are speaking hypotheticals: what COULD be possible. We'll find out soon enough whether or not it actually IS possible, but, honestly, even a rudimentary knowledge of the involved concepts should tell you how unlikely it is that the cloud functions as Microsoft- and you, for that matter- wants to tell people it will. I mean, could even you concede that local processes will be calculated and executed faster than server-side processes over the internet? That you would receive the data from the cloud servers faster if you were in the same room, as opposed to hundreds of miles away? After all, a simple internet speed test shows you that the transfer of information isn't instant; if the request for information must be sent, received, processed, executed, sent, and received again, that's a helluva lot of time, in computational speak. And it's highly unlikely it'll be faster than just doing the calculations right there on local hardware. If even something as simple as a phone call can have a two-second delay as it's bouncing around on satellites, what makes you think that computations for a game would be faster?
I've never left a comment on this board that said the cloud will do everything Micro is stating. I do go after the people who shoot down tech they, nor me, know anything about on that level. Links to an engineer... http://en.wikipedia.org/wik... http://www.bls.gov/k12/comp... http://www.webopedia.com/TE... Just let me know if you need more links. Maybe you thought engineers work on engines. IDK really : ) Business is run on hypotheticals, foreshadowing market trends Hicken. An idea is hypothetical to it's core...it's never concrete until it's finished. A lot of those pioneers aren't in the position where they have to fill out a resume Hicken. It's still not often you get a job without a certificate. Even if you know the stuff...people go to school just to show the certificate to possible employers, unless they do their own business. I don't pretend to know what this stuff means on that level..but because of my ignorance I also don't shoot it down instantly. Here's one more engineer link..just to make sure you know what engineer means. Feel free to read the whole article. Article is 4 years old...states Micro has been working with the cloud since then. http://cloudengineer.com/
"That said, most of the pioneers in the IT world are and were self-taught. The best and brightest programmers didn't learn how to do so from school. They learned by dicking around with code in their spare time on POS computers." That's total BS. I guess people at schools like MIT are self taught....lol Give me a break. Microsoft have the best technology researchers in the world in their R&D department who have been educated by the best schools around the world.
So you're not going to deny anything I say, nor will you acknowledge it. Rather, you'll ignore it altogether. Well, changing the debate is one way to win it, I guess.
I did acknowledge what you said. The second to last paragraph pretty much sums up my retort to that. @manageri Me and Hicken go back and forth pretty often on these boards. But I don't think either of us have attacked each other. But I'll entertain you. The developers I've heard working with the cloud don't speak about graphics or physics. But do I believe a game like Forza can use the cloud to store driver data, and load them up pre-race so that you're racing against player data instead of straight AI, yeah. But I've not once said everything they say is true...but I'll let them prove it before I shoot it down. If it doesn't happen. It's not my money. If you think it's shitty hardware...good for you. No other home console has shown me a game that looks better than Forza 5. So if shitty hardware is pumping that out..then we're in for a shitty gen.
I don't need to fill out a resume, I haven't looked for a job since 1988, the jobs come to me. Every other month Google, Amazon or Microsoft ask me to come in for an interview, I always decline. Anyway with regards to the clouds usefulness in gaming it will be limited due to the latency involved. They can't assume a low latancy connection since too many people won't have that. So that means the only tasks that can be offloaded or assisted by the cloud are those that are not time critical. That means there really isn't all that much that the cloud will be good for. Even the Forza drivatar using the cloud is rather silly. These calculations could easily be handled between races or even after you exit the game. The only aspect of the cloud that is required for this is the storage so that others can access your drivatar profile data.
Can we all get along? What happened to "I like sonic better" "Oh you like sonic better well thats cool bro im more of a mario fan but sonic is cool too"
It's a combination of superiority complexes and mommy or daddy issues.
Lol it cant be helped huh
It's the same thing, fanboyism in a different dress, it's all silly
"I like master chief better" "Oh you like master chief better well thats cool bro im more of a kratos fan but master chief is cool too" there you go :D
...I don't remember it being like that at all lol Either way I was more of a Megaman fan :)
Xboxone is still Only going to release in 21 countrys this year,its most than obvious that is going to be an Onslaught!Sony is ready for WORLDWIDE release and at better price!!M$thinks that only US market is important,leaving 80% of the European market without a release this year is like saying to Sony ;TAKE THEM!And with this move M$ has loss those countrys for good!
You mean $700m for spying using Xbox One's Kinect Always On, Always listening. lol.
of course this is a big advantage for MS... microsoft servers and cloud services are way better than anything sony has in comparison they're not even in the same realm. Microsofts Azure cloud computing and infrastructure brings in revenue in the billions for MS. i for one am glad that theyre bringing their azure tech and dedicated servers to the xbox one it will make the MP experience that much better.
Rememeber what everyone was saying when this happened...lol http://n4g.com/news/1028627... There was plenty optimism, now Cloud is useless..
Quoting Me- "I'm betting Sony has other uses for it like streaming Home to get rid of all the load times. Or maybe just an option on the PS store to stream/download games, which could help for PS+ members trying out free games each month." Now what do i win?
So what happens if my Xbox isn't connected to the internet. Will my cloud based game suddenly run poorly or not play at all because I'm not connected? What if my internet isn't good enough to handle the speeds of which these various calculations are coming in. Will my game lag because it's pulling for data it can't seem to obtain? This is why I don't believe in this "cloud" based computing for console games. It's a supposed fantasy that contains ideas of the far-away future in the present day. In a perfect world, offloading tasks to be completed by servers would be ideal... if everyone had the bandwidth and speed to keep up with latency between frame refresh times and processing times. It's not gonna work. Stick to depending on hardware.
Wouldn't the same problem occur with Gaikai?
The way gaikai works is that all processing is done on gaikai's side while you're essentially being streamed video of yourself. Gaikai takes your input (and only input) from the PC or PS4, the server and computer takes it, processes it and then sends it back to you. What Microsoft is trying to do is propose an idea that games can rely on some graphical and physics calculation solely from the cloud as they say. The issue with this, and this conflicts with their new policy dropping constant connection, is that I need internet for my game to perform up to optimal standards. If I'm lagging on my internet, then my game's performance lags because I'm not receiving the packets of data I need to run certain calculations fast enough. Nothing will run smoothly because my console's operation is being held up by missing data it was expecting. If I'm not connected to the web at all, I guess I'm getting a crappier single player experience.
I understand that part. How is response time from Gaikai sending me output from my controller input? There's got to be lag especially if a game was originally 30fps. Imagine if I have low bandwidth.
Yes if your connection isn't up to snuff, you'll experience visual degradation, input lag and a jittery stream. Streaming isn't nearly as complicated as say.. heavy physics calculations on the fly.
But you could assign backround tasks to the cloud depending on the type of game.
I'm probably repeating others but - Cloud is bs. It's limited to computational physics at best...and streaming cutscenes at worst. The issue is bandwidth. And this coming gen MS won't be able to hamper Sony with their BS ToS. This gen MS deliberately forced pubs to downgrade games to be on par with ps3. Otherwise they wouldn't let pubs sell those games on their system. Pubs couldn't afford to lose out on the install base MS had garnered. I'm not making this up. Its legit terms of service agreement with pubs. Google it. This coming gen they could try that again....but ps4 has a 1gb freebase OS. That's 7gbs of faster ram for games. Xbone has 5gbs of slow ram (OS uses 3gb due to kinect and bloat from ads no doubt). So how's this going to be to play out? Devs are not going to let Sony 1st party walk all over them. They'll have to compete or die on the likely top console (thx MS for the DRM ....and flip switch) So they'll bs consumers with servers. Servers that are at least in part virtual servers. This is a joke. How does one stream a 25gb game and have minimal lag? How does MS pay my ISP so my limit isn't blown the fuk out?! FYI my local GameStop regional manager gave me the numbers (friend if mine), she said as of noon Tuesday they had 188/55 ps4/xbone. I'm just tired of MS. They've grown do arrogant and pompos I can't endure their existence in the minds of fellow consumers anymore. Rant over. Now you can down vote me into oblivion. I'll have company though...with xbones sales. Lol
So when PS3 multiplat version were better... I'm guessing those didn't exist? I guess I'm confused. I thought MS cloud was to possibly help with game processes. I highly doubt that's 25gb. Now Sony's Gaikai is the one that's going to be streaming a 25gb game... so how's that going to work based on your argument?
The PS4 will destroy the Xbox One and the Xbox One will be a colossal failure. All I see in those articles is that Microsoft are dumb enough to just throw more money in the trash can.
Maybe they should of took some of that $700 mil and get some better memory, or faster hardware. Nah its just easier to run your gums about cloud this cloud that oooh the cloud will make the X1 3x more powerful. Lol, a server is gonna make your hardware more powrful, hey kids we have this thing called the internet and um its basically server after server after server. Does it make your 5 year old PC more powerful than a brand new one ? Well why not ?
Well, the XBO has a 68GB/s internal bandwidth, if you have a zero lag and 6GB/s connection because you live on the basement of a connection center then theorically you could have a 10% computational power improvement from the cloud and your XBO will be still 40% weaker than a PS4... LOL!! All this cloud power is just plain PR bullshit.
Sony touched on this: http://www.polygon.com/2013... Sony will be able to do similar cloud computing.
Bottom line here is this If the cloud was able to make a console an infinitely powerful console, we would have seen a demonstration at E3. There was no demonstration because the cloud will not make a console more powerful. Where's the proof? You have 300k servers. Use the cloud to make the best looking games. A demo for e3. Nothing Empty talk worthy of making Goebbels proud. The cloud talk is the biggest lie to hit videogames ever.
Sony builds with innovation and raw power. Microsoft buys whats on the shelf and says its new!.
I heard Sony been working on Gaikai for about 5 years now...and decided to use it now...