Cliffy B: Numbers Don’t Work to Allow Used Games, “Disc Based Day one $60 Model is Crumbling”

The announcement that the PS4 would allow used games (at least to the extent the PS3 does) brought roars from the audience, and ‘won’ the conference online. But serial contrarian and Gears of War guy Cliff Bleszinski has come out in defense of blocking used games, something the Xbox One does. - PSLS

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doctorstrange2012d ago

It's like he wants people to hate him

DxTrixterz2012d ago

Gears of War - Microsoft. There is your answer.

Relientk772012d ago

It's like somehow Cliff B, Gears of War and Microsoft are all connected or something

conspiracies. they're here.

blackbeld2012d ago Show


Sony said more than once, that they are following the PS3 model in terms of used games and DRM.

darthv722012d ago

the music industry all over again.

you have consumers saying they should be able to download music or convert their music to digital form. then you have the artists and studios saying you can't do that.

There has to be a happy medium here. Before Itunes, there were the various music sharing apps and people using any type of mp3 player to get their digital fix.

then the music industry flexes their muscle and napster takes the fall for the consumers. So then here comes apple to say, we can make things right for both sides. Selling licensed music for cheap gives the consumer the legal right to own the digital copy of a song while at the same time it gives some of that back to the artist that created it.

so maybe MS is the has to take the fall in this age of DRM for sony to come along and say, we can do things the right way. So it doesnt piss off the gamers but actually gets them to have compassion for the devs and publishers and in turn helps out the publishers in the long run.

There is a right way and a wrong way of doing something. Both Ms and Sony are publishers but one is doing things the wrong way with pushing (MS) and the other is doing things the right way with persuading (Sony).

Mucless2012d ago Show
Godmars2902012d ago


So you're basically saying we only have Justin Beaver or J-pop level gaming to look forward to. That at some point production costs are going to have to level out if not drop.

webeblazing2012d ago


and dont musicians make most of they money on tour
and if both systems used bluray why dont they put some much content on the disc so it would be too much of a pain to download

poopsack2012d ago (Edited 2012d ago )


Except everything Napster did wrong was for the user's benefit and corporation's loss (of course for their own benefit as well as this was their business model), which pissed off the corporations. Microsoft is the corporation, they wont "take the fall", they'll just pay their way out of it because its whats brought their success so far. Exclusivity (timed or true) and brand spamming (as before) is what they'll hope will make everyone forget all the negatives.

YNWA962012d ago

Whats wrong with buying a console and never having to pay for a game or multiplayer.... This is not fair :( boo hooo hooooo

morganfell2012d ago

Hey Cliff...relevant much?

Here is the undeniable rule. As soon as you beginb restricting the freedom of consumers, they drop you like a bad habit and find an alternative.

The more you tighten your grip, the more worlds will slip through your fingers.

These idiots calling for DRM worry about the industry when restricting consumers is the very thing that will insure the death of their current structure.

ThatsGaming2012d ago

Interesting because he no longer works for Microsoft.

Garbanjo0012012d ago Show
ltachiUchiha2012d ago


The difference with that is xbl wont be selling them cheaper compared to steam or psn. Go look now on xbl vs psn & you will see that the price differentials are a big difference. If any of these 2 were to do such a thing, sony will fit it perfect because they actually hook consumers up with deals all the time & if u have ps plus its not even close. ps plus blows xbl out the water with free games, cheaper games & is just better overall for consumers.

NewMonday2012d ago (Edited 2012d ago )

if a one time game "license" cost just $20 for a core game then you wouldn't see all this uproar

but asking us to pay the full $60 JUST FOR STARTERS THEN CHARGE ANOTHER $20-$30 is ridiculous.

EA:".. looking at the customer more from an ARPU perspective rather than a packaged goods perspective, we think there's a great opportunity to get $70, $80, $90 from that consumer. But upfront from the clients, it's a $60 price point"

Perjoss2012d ago


star systems

RumbleFish2012d ago (Edited 2012d ago )

I have never understood the discussion. Used games bring money to the publishers too, because many gamers use the money they got from used games sales to buy new games. I would have bought less than half of my games if the games haven't had a resale value.
I say No! All we can see in these strategies is greed. If they weren't greedy they would have discounted downloadable versions with a rediculous cost for them compared to physical copies.
But look at the greedy pigs at EA: their games are even more expensive when you buy them in Origin instead of a physical copy. Are the people drunk to buy there?
Please excuse any wrong spelling/grammar, I am not a native speaker.

papashango2012d ago

I don't blame him.

The dude feels like he's owed all his dues. Doesn't mean I support him. I just got no beef with a man trying to get his.

SilentNegotiator2012d ago (Edited 2012d ago )

No, it's the fact that he's been rubbing on EA for the last 6 months. EA is supporting Microsoft with a temp exclusive (believe what you want; EA told Eurogamer 'we can't discuss Titanfall going to other systems' instead of 'maybe'...and we're talking about EA regardless). Thus, Cliffy is supporting Xbox One to make EA happy and hopefully land a job at EA, as he has been trying to do for months.

His Microsoft-heavy history probably helps his anti-consumer bias, though.

Kleptic2012d ago

Cliff is a game designer...not a publisher/producer...I'll wait for Mark Rein's comments on Epic's stance with it was Cliffy B claiming UE3 could 'only be done on an xbox 360'...when the head of Epic, a year later said...'completely untrue'...

the weirdest part with all of this is MS keeps saying they made all these DRM decisions with direct feedback from 'all the big 3rd party publishers', which one would assume would be EA and Activision...

but then both of those publishers clearly stated 'the current online pass policy works acceptably, we don't see any need for that to change' at their own conferences...which is exactly what Sony allows on the Ps4...they won't put passes on their own titles, but will allow 3rd parties to continue doing what the do now...

its not a debate...MS has really pushed themselves into a hole with this DRM stuff, and it doesn't seem like any non-affiliated people are backing them up. Cliff may be, but he's not exactly a go to business executive that has any important feedback...he just makes gears of war games...and more often than not, the company he actually works for (Epic), contradicts his own statements...

morganfell2012d ago

@perjoss - yes in Star Wars but this is something different ;)

abzdine2012d ago

what a jerk this guy is!!
a console that doesn't even work all over the world how can he say this type of nonsense?! if only it worked alright everywhere ok maybe he has a point because he is paid by MS but come on!

Greatness awaits

Mutant-Spud2012d ago

The answer to music piracy was Spotify, so we can expect to see something like that with games, Greenlight is another response, so you could see a scenario where only the people who invest a certain amount of money in the game get the full featured product on day one. The other solution would just be to move to completely digital distribution and make the games cheaper, EB is advertising PS4 games at about $120 Australian, if they were $30 I would probably buy one a fortnight.
Don't forget we're yet to see the "Steambox" too, that could trump both consoles.

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Why o why2012d ago

Maybe Microsoft listened a little too much to the wrong devs. I won't have to deal with anything of the sort cliffy boy. Thanks for ut series btw....great games

HammadTheBeast2012d ago

When money talks, M$ listens.

solidjun52012d ago

He's the ultimate shill.

Knushwood Butt2012d ago

Cliffy looks like he just stepped out of his meth lab.

Jazz41082012d ago (Edited 2012d ago )

As long as third party pubs do t limit trading games at gamestop then its business as usual for trade ins on xboxone. Its been stated several times this is the case with both sony and ms so as far as trade ins it sounds oike nothing is changing. Please provide me a link if anyone knows something that says ms will not let you trade your games in for credit or cas to retailers please.

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Thirty3Three2012d ago (Edited 2012d ago )

Who the hell is this guy and why should I care about him or what he says...?

RankFTW2012d ago

You really don't know who he is?

Thirty3Three2012d ago

@rank;Uh.. no.

Unlike many, I don't spend my life on the internet.

MRMagoo1232012d ago Show
Thirty3Three2012d ago

I agree, completely, MRMagoo123!

Thanks for the explanation :D

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tuglu_pati2012d ago (Edited 2012d ago )

Every time I hear some one say this developer is greedy or this company is greedy, i wonder what the hell you guys have in your head.

This companies are in for the money not to have loses. The truth is I'm not happy with all this DRM and used games talk. But the reality is this developer need to make money or you think they do all this for the fun of it.

V0LT2012d ago

LOL! If every corporation did this I can't wonder but how you would feel then.

BlackTar1872012d ago (Edited 2012d ago )

Hey Tuglu,

Please explain to me why the consumer is on the knife for this problem? They want money on used games get a reasonable case built and take it to the supreme court to rule on. The consumer should not bear the brunt of the change because the game industry and its retail markets build a bad business model. Fix the model fix the problem. Don't fix the consumer side when its not the consumer side with the problem.

I thin alot of developers do make games for the fun and love of it.

I hope whoever disagreed with me has a great thought out point and shares otherwise you are a sad sad little man

webeblazing2012d ago

yeah completely right but as customers we have to let them know whats not gonna fly then we can meet on middle ground

blind-reaper2012d ago

You have to respect the consumer if your consumer's respect back, with Microsoft's policies you are only hurting legit consumers (people who buy original games).

tuglu_pati2012d ago (Edited 2012d ago )


"I thin alot of developers do make games for the fun and love of it."

I love what i do for living that does not mean i'll do it for free and believe me i will go with whoever pay me more for my work. Its important to love what you do, but you do it also because you need the money to provide your family (if you have one) with the best resources. If you think this developer will go through all the work just for fun, you need a little dosis of reality.

@ BlackTar187 Bellow

If you read my first post, you'll notice that i say im not happy with it, nor do I approve. I'm just saying that every time i hear someone say a company is greedy i wonder, if this someone know this companies are in for money not for the fun of it.

I guess you need to learn how to read and comprehend before replay.

BlackTar1872012d ago

Hey tuglu,

Why not respond to the meat of my post? Why respond to the 5% at the bottom. Fact is your full of it and your punish the consumer thought process for bad industry business model is laughable.

nypifisel2012d ago

If developers want to make more money they have to present us with a product we're willing to pay full price for. There's already been studies that comes to the conclusion that restricting used games lessen profits from game sales - unless the prices of the games drops with over 30%. And we all know that's not going to happen, they just want to have the cake and eat it too.

Why should we (the consumers) pay for that? Sony went with a more consumer friendly approach and god damn will they cash in on that. They'll see that a happy consumer is a spending one, Sony will with this line earn tonnes of money - and they will do this cause they delivered what we wanted, not restricting what we deserve.

badz1492012d ago

consumers are not in the wrong in this! not at all! it's about consumer's rights on physical media that they paid money for that M$ is about to take away!

it's just common sense that if you buy anything physical, you have the rights to keep, lend, trade in or resell them as you wish! XBone is not allowing that or at least not making it easy to do it like the old days!

if they really think that used market really is THAT threatening to the industry, why don't they go full digital like Steam? no one will complain like with Steam because you never have a physical copy to begin with.

they are afraid the world is not ready yet for full DD and still stick to disc based games but at the same time trying to pull a BS!

Tyre2012d ago (Edited 2012d ago )

@Tugly pati BS We all make money. If you want to make a quick buck...go be a prostitute. Most of the developers do it out of a passion. In the entertainment business, creative people with passion are essential. That's why you get new IPs and Good games. Cliffy is just as wrong. They are all misguided by the end of the console cycle/economic crisis & their religious misguided believe in mobile business models & DRM (especially Cliffy cause he worked so close with Microsoft). Mobile is a fad. Text Necks & Neck Hernia epidemics are on the rise. No one will ever defeat the big screen. The myth that Used games threaten AAA sales has been debunked by Gamestop's real figures & facts dozens of times. Used games stimulate the buying of new AAA titles cause they leave you with more money in your pocket. We have seen this talk since the 80ies and consoles are bigger than ever! The new AAAs will sell even more nextgen. I know my friends & I are all pre-ordering PS4s (thx to Sony we will buy) & we will buy ALL AAA titles. Everybody is excited, Next-Gen will kick off BIG and even Indie Games/Hardware Architecture/ease of development are better than they were ever.....all this BS about the games industry will seem like yesterday's irrelevant nonsense by greedy bastards, as the NextGen drops.

tuglu_pati2012d ago


how old are u? Nevermind :/

juggulator2012d ago

Activision made a billion dollars on Black Ops 2. It's up to them as to how much of a cut Treyarch gets.

YNWA962012d ago

@ black tar, its obvious as this industry matured, this would happen. We are going digital eventually, and there will be no used games ever again.... So either you will pirate or buy legal.... MS simply making first move, very unpopular, but progressive.... This might eventually lead to much bigger sales of games, but cheaper....

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avengers19782012d ago

And let's hear it for gaming a biggest DBAG, ladies and gentlemen, cliffy b

Blachek2012d ago

He said it like it is.

nypifisel2012d ago (Edited 2012d ago )


Cliff is clueless. He's not saying it like it is, he's saying it like they want it to be. If AAA games can't make profits from 5 millions in sales, then perhaps that game shouldn't had cost that much to make. It's how everything works, why would there be an exception for games? It's a product like everything else.

Seriously if they can't reign in the budgets and create games that are profitable then that's their fault. If AAA games of today can't live in the climate that exists, they don't deserve to.

Why o why2012d ago (Edited 2012d ago )

That gif (jif) doesn't surprise me one bit even though sony also advertises in that section. I've always thought that edge were bias on multiple fronts. Ar well, I guess I'm wearing a tin foil hat again right because sonys there too

NextGen24Gamer2012d ago

It's funny because its all common sense to me. People/consumers want want want but some are too cheap to pay for what they want. When you buy a game, you don't own the content. You can't make copies of it. As consumers we have been spoiled. PCs have had this tech for years and now consoles have the tech and I'm glad they are finally implementing it. It should drive cost of new games down and developer can get paid for their work instead of GameStop reselling it like they own it over and over again. One copy of a game gets sold to one consumer and then that consumer sells it to GameStop for pennies on the dollar and then GameStop sells it close to full price to a new consumer and the dev receives none of it. God loving people got to see the wrong in that. Common sense stuff.

People complain about everything. I just believe in right and wrong.

BlackTar1872012d ago

please explain why its our job as consumers to fix a poor business model?

NextGen24Gamer2012d ago

It's not the consumers job. It's e developers and publishers and console makers job. And guess what? They are finally doing it. Thank goodness. Finally got it right for consoles. Gamers will benefit with games that coat less.

ShwankyShpanky2012d ago (Edited 2012d ago )

I'd love to see how these ridiculous arguments would have played out sixty years ago.

Hasbro statement: "When you buy the game Clue, you are buying a license to use the product. The paper/cardboard in the box is only a delivery medium for the IP that is printed on the medium, to which Hasbro retains all rights of resale. By selling/purchasing a used copy of Clue, you are taking money that rightly belongs to Hasbro developers and placing it in the hands of used toy resellers."

2012d ago
MRMagoo1232012d ago Show
clonerz2012d ago (Edited 2012d ago )

Whoa Is Me Mr Elite I'm so sorry forgive me should I kiss your Boot now yeah hmm... Not gonna happen bottom line is if I buy something I should be allowed to do with it as I please example lend it to a friend use it on more than one console in my house sell it to whomever I want to (Mgoo said it all)

NextGen24Gamer2012d ago (Edited 2012d ago )

Mrmagoo and anyone else who doesn't understand.

If what u say is true and is the law. Why can't you do all that with computer games? Lol

You sound like a spoiled baby who is having your binky snatched away and you believe you have a right to it. Guess what? You have grown up...I think...and you have managed without it. Lol...or maybe you still need it with all the whining you are doing.

Fact is...the system is broken as is...we the consumer have been taking advantage of the broken system and now consoles are catching up to what pcs have been doing for ever.

Ms has tweaked and perfected the pc game model by allowing you to install your game on 10 different game systems.

By allowing you to trade game in

By allowing you to let someone borrow it once

By allowing you to play it on any system you want as your games follow you

On the pc there are games you can't play without an Internet connection. It's the way of the future. You can't play a console without electricity.

You can tether Internet from your cell phone once a day and it only takes kilobytes to check in.

Sony clearly went he way of the caveman by keeping the same model for the next gen. It def makes last gen gamers happy. Keeps the binky in your mouth just a little longer. But it is coming out sooner or later. Grow up

MysticStrummer2012d ago

I don't know about other people's towns, but GameStop has closed 2/3 of the stores near me. Their business practices and price gouging was already starting to hurt them. There are simply better and cheaper ways to get used games, and GameStop was going to have to change their ways if they wanted to stay in business. You believe in right and wrong? Punishing consumers for GameStop's business practices is wrong.

Common sense stuff indeed.

If you think game prices will come down because of this, you're fooling yourself.

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shutUpAndTakeMyMoney2012d ago

He Must be working on a new xbox exclusive.

**rolles eyes**

Relientk772012d ago

Oh I wouldn't be surprised at all

Rhaigun2012d ago

Arguments like this from Cliffy B piss me off. Hollywood would be over the moon if they could get away with $60 movie tickets. And their budgets are still millions of dollars higher.

If I go to the theater and pay $10 to see a movie, then also buy said movie for $20 on bluray, its still $30 cheaper.

Gamer19822012d ago

Exactly they spend a LOT more developing films too. Gamer developing done well makes millions for developers. They lose money not because of used games but because of being badly managed. Movies you could argue are bought by more than games but they are 1/4 of the price so that easily makes up for the difference. Te reason games don't sell like movies is the price and they talk about increasing them every generation. They are going in the wrong direction and eventually consumers will stop buying..

Blachek2012d ago

I agree with Cliffy B in relationship to the construction of price points for console games. Reading this site, it is ridiculous how people flock to Sony because they aren't trying to right the ship... where as Microsoft is. How else do people think they can correct this pricing structure?

MS has shown they are looking to the future, while Sony is playing Loss-Leader hoping that this fundamental ideology they both have leads to MS losing sales. If Sony doesn't implement a new structure this gen, you had better believe they will next.

Like Cliffy B said in this article, and I have in the past... Sony is riding this MS Hate Train knowing full well they will follow suit at some point. They are just waiting until people are tired of complaining about the direction the industry is headed.

THamm2012d ago

Lower the price of the COMPLETE games, not only would you sell more, also we wouldn't care about used games

2012d ago
LAZL0-Panaflex2012d ago

He's an Xbox fan boy scrub. If $60 games were crumbling he wouldn't have a Lamborghini and that wife being the treasure troll/teletubby he is.

PS gears 3 campaign was dogshit.

Mithan2012d ago

Or maybe he is smarter than most of you dumb fucks who post on the internet and knows the realities of a business case.

StuffofLegend2012d ago

Agreed. The game economy was built on non drm terms, I couldn't possibly believe that because one company tanks on the opposing terms that its the end of gaming. Worst case scenario, video games get a revolution and a huge indie surge.

Christopher2012d ago (Edited 2012d ago )

If you can't have this model, then why are publishers walking away with hundreds of millions and even billions in profits each year?

Also, if this model is broken, then why are PC games coming out cheaper and have a much higher piracy rate... but are still going strong?

tiffac0082012d ago (Edited 2012d ago )

Exactly, I think creating the right expectations will lead to better development cost.

Its the industry that is over budgeting the game production due to unreasonable expectations and only heaven knows where they are actually investing and losing their money at.

I mean look at Square Enix, they made millions on Tomb Raider, Hitman and Sleeping Dogs and yet they come out and say they didn't make money?

Something is wrong here and the consumer is being used as a scapegoat.

rainslacker2012d ago (Edited 2012d ago )

I wish I could bubble you up cg.

Edit:BTW the answer to your question is because they are already finding ways to monetize games more. DLC, MT, etc. Cliffy says something to that effect, and he's not wrong, but it seems like the solution is there. It's not ideal for the gamer, and some companies abuse it, but it's a fair compromise in many cases, as it's completely optional on the user side of things.

I'd personally be very interested to see these numbers he speaks of. After all this talk, he finally mentions that he has numbers, so I say transparency is key if he wants us to bite.

Rubberlegs2012d ago

PC games are cheaper because its all digital now. You can get a new released game on the PC day one going digital for just about half off the price. Boxed versions your always going to be paying the retail price for a new release.

lilbrat232012d ago

He supports it because developers are getting greedy. Now if you are going to charge me to trade my game in you better drop those games to $30

Christopher2012d ago

Not developers. The people who lead the development companies and get money back from the games. Majority of developers make a salary and that's it.