1030°
Submitted by NYC_Gamer 462d ago | interview

Inside the PlayStation 4 With Mark Cerny

Cerny approached Gamasutra in the hope of delivering a "no holds barred PlayStation 4 hardware expose," he said, during the interview that resulted in this story. "That certainly is what we're here to do," said Cerny, before speaking to Gamasutra for well over an hour. (Mark Cerny, PS4)

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majiebeast  +   463d ago | Well said
"For example, this is his take on its GPU: "It's ATI Radeon. Getting into specific numbers probably doesn't help clarify the situation much, except we took their most current technology, and performed a large number of modifications to it."

They build it! We made it better!

Article is a good read thanks for posting it.
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LightofDarkness  +   462d ago
More like: "They designed the original, we adapted it to fit our solution". Making it work with their design paradigm doesn't necessarily make it "better". But yes, I digress.
abzdine  +   462d ago
The PlayStation 3 was very powerful, but its unfamiliar CELL processor stymied developers. "There was huge performance there, but in order to unlock that performance, you really needed to study it and learn unique ways of using the hardware," said Cerny.

I actually like the way PS3 was built, it helped me distinguish the good developers from the bad and lazy ones.
The problem with PS3 was only the launch price. If it launched at 400bucks PS4 wouldn't be as it is.
The reason why i'm writing this is that it wouldn't take to long before developers unleash full PS4 power if the architecture is known, we wont see as much evolution as we did with PS3. in the end life cycle will be much shorter.
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NewMonday  +   462d ago
seems all of the internal hardware secrets are unveiled, the next mysteries are on the softwere side.
Minato-Namikaze  +   462d ago
@abzine

Exactly. The good devs learned to use the system and made amazing games. Lazy devs complained and tried to take shorcuts and their games suffered for it.

"If I’d asked people what they wanted, they would have asked for a faster horse" - henry ford
WUTCHUGUNNADO  +   462d ago
@Abzdine

The console cycle won't be shorted. In fact next gen has the probability of lasting longer than even this gen with the main focus going towards what features they can implement into the console itself.

"The reason why i'm writing this is that it wouldn't take to long before developers unleash full PS4 power if the architecture is known, we wont see as much evolution as we did with PS3"

That wasn't evolution per say... PS3 was always capable of it but it just took longer for the Devs to realize it due to the complications of learning the new tech. The PS4's architecture makes it easier for Devs to hit the ground running right off the back which is no where close to being something to be disappointed about simply because you'll see the console running at it's full potential sooner than the PS3 took. I'm in no way shape or form Pro-PS4 but I do understand that it will bring the entire industry to the level I want to see whether it's PC/720/PS4.
NeoBasch  +   462d ago
"The PlayStation 4's architecture looks very familiar, at first blush -- and it is. But Cerny maintains that his team's work on it extends it far beyond its basic capabilities."

I think this is sufficient proof that they at least believe its better. Now who knows if that's actually true. It's the kind of thing where you need to just decide for yourself if you agree. Hopefully, developers will be able to tap into it if true.
SHORYUKEN  +   462d ago
Dude Lightofdarknes.

PS4 is the best you can get.

Please stop being such a fanboy and just accept the benefits the PS4 will give you.

Free online playing with friends etc. you know it.
sengoku  +   462d ago
simply a beautiful design
nukeitall  +   462d ago
@abzdine:

"I actually like the way PS3 was built, it helped me distinguish the good developers from the bad and lazy ones."

Keep in mind that game design has little to do with the technical side of things. You can have "lazy" developers, but still create a great game and vice versa.

So I don't think that necessarily says anything. There is also a resource issue.

I think Sony's approach this time around with unified memory and ease of development is the correct path.

That said, remember when "unified memory" was supposed to be for cheap and low end PC systems?

MS changed that around pretty quickly, with the Xbox 360 and now it is more recognized as a genius move. Well played, well played!
Septic  +   462d ago
I can see why Cerny's appointment as lead man for the PS4 was met with little to no resistance. Simply put, this man knows what he is doing and is undeniably very passionate about it too.

Hats off to him. He has already played a big part in making the PS4 a veritable 'beast' in the console arena.
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Why o why  +   462d ago
Its amazing that the hardest console to develop for yielded most technically advanced games this gen. Not to say Naughty Dog, Santa Monica or PD couldn't do wonders on the 360 mind you but the console that was the easiest to develop on should of yielded the most.....

microsoft should acquire more devs of the ilk sony have in my opinion or at least use the ones they do have to create more advance game engines and stuff

Like septic said, this guy seems to be on the ball and passionate about our industry. Lets see what naughtysantidigital and the likes can pull off on a console that's allegedly easy to dev on.
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GraveLord  +   462d ago
Uhhh...yes it does make it better.
MysticStrummer  +   462d ago
Actually yes, that does make it better. Better for use in the PS4.
The_Infected  +   462d ago
"The "supercharged PC architecture," that the team has come up with -- to use Cerny's term -- is designed to offer significant gains the PC can't, while still offering a familiar technological environment for engineers."

"If you look at a PC, said Cerny, "if it had 8 gigabytes of memory on it, the CPU or GPU could only share about 1 percent of that memory on any given frame. That's simply a limit imposed by the speed of the PCIe. So, yes, there is substantial benefit to having a unified architecture on PS4"

That's pretty awesome:)
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The_Infected  +   462d ago
"One thing we could have done is drop it down to 128-bit bus, which would drop the bandwidth to 88 gigabytes per second, and then have eDRAM on chip to bring the performance back up again," said Cerny. While that solution initially looked appealing to the team due to its ease of manufacturability, it was abandoned thanks to the complexity it would add for developers."

Interesting wasn't the next gen Xbox rumored to use eDRAM to speed up the bandwidth? Cerny said they abandoned it due the the complexity it would cause for developers. Smart move Sony.
vulcanproject  +   462d ago
Xbox 360 is already using a 128 bit interface, with EDRAM to help bridge the gap without using a wider memory bus. Its not unknown. Developers have been working this way on consoles for years.

It causes more complexity compared to a simple wider bus for sure, but it isn't insurmountable.

Microsoft by the looks of it could be going for the cheaper option with slower RAM and a big dump of on die speedy memory.

Have to just see how well priced their machine is I guess.
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Ju  +   461d ago
What's more interesting than how each company is overcoming the bandwidth issue is how they actually are integrating CPU and GPU. And what Cerny describes is quite interesting. And it looks like they did actually did put some extension into the design which are quite interesting. A "pre-vertex" stage is quite unique - I'd like to see what the the DirectX makers have here to counter that - that's like a massive "vertex" compressor which basically eliminates what's far away. Quite an awesome idea. Also, while DX had compute integration for a while, nothing like this has been done in HW to remove the bottlenecks. And it sure doesn't look like MS has a close CPU/GPU integration than Sony (but who knows).

It's far beyond "a APU using Jaguar cores". OGL has no full compute integration (basic in 4.3 - with pretty much no driver supporting it). OpenGL and OpenCL can have shared context but with what performance penalty? APUs still can't have "fully shared memory" - max amount the GPU can use is 2GB - no matter how much memory you have in your board and bandwidth is still limited to ~28GB/s (no GDDR version so far). Adding a "pre-vertex" stage in the render pipeline with full (!) compute support is a genius move!

All those things are gone in the PS4. I'm quite impressed. Now its in the engine devs hands to take advantage of this. We'll see some great results - devs are familiar with compute and shaders; what was missing is the HW which made it feasible to actually push this technology.
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flyingmunky  +   462d ago
"One thing we could have done is drop it down to 128-bit bus, which would drop the bandwidth to 88 gigabytes per second, and then have eDRAM on chip to bring the performance back up again," said Cerny. While that solution initially looked appealing to the team due to its ease of manufacturability, it was abandoned thanks to the complexity it would add for developers. "We did not want to create some kind of puzzle that the development community would have to solve in order to create their games. And so we stayed true to the philosophy of unified memory."

^^Isn't that what the rumored xbox is going to use? He basically just said MS's method is a cheaper, developer unfriendly, way of doing things. It will be interesting if MS has the box that is more difficult to code for next generation.
GiggMan  +   462d ago
You're right. All BS aside that was a great article to read.
ATi_Elite  +   462d ago
" Getting into specific numbers probably doesn't help clarify the situation much,"

WTF! YES Specific Numbers would Clarify the situation. Why is SOny tap dancing around and not releasing specific GPU specs?

Can't wait till E3 and hopefully those specs are released.

Oh by the Way Knack Looks Awesome! Now THAT'S impressive.
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ravinash  +   462d ago
Would the numbers help clarify the situation?
With the architecture so different to a standard PC, how would you compare them.

you would look at the basic numbers and think "Oh look, their lower than my PC so there for it can't be as good".

With all the changes, how you you judge that?
Cryptcuzz  +   462d ago
@ ravinash

Exactly as you said, took the words directly from my mouth as if you're a wizard :)

To say it in a slightly different way, if the numbers were released, all it would achieve is numbers PC extremists would simply use to compare the two platforms since the components are very similar.

That is not what they want to achieve, since it would totally overlook what they have carefully planned and engineered the components to behave and perform.

The result, a platform with familiar components that have been significantly modified to perform synonymously with one another to achieve performance not possible on a platform like a PC, where parts are just thrown together for brute force, but not efficiency.
Kenshin_BATT0USAI  +   462d ago
Actually, numbers would at the very least give us a vague idea where the GPUs power stands. We have all the other specs, if we had those numbers we'd have an extremely solid grasp as to what to expect.
Sy_Wolf  +   462d ago
As a heavily certified IT guy I can tell you it would help a lot. Modifying the GPU won't make it radically faster. Knowing the exact GPU that it came from would give an idea of what type of performance you can expect. It's not comparable at all to the PC because of the way a PC works, but it would give you an idea of what to expect.
pain777pas  +   462d ago
Cerny is a Wiz kid. Seriously, he is a certified grade skipping complete college before 18 years old genius. Sony is in the driver seat........ again.
PeaSFor  +   462d ago
....Cerny could also be a supervillain
psn1_arakouftaian   462d ago | Spam
jennifer22ward   462d ago | Spam
Gamer1982  +   462d ago
"One thing we could have done is drop it down to 128-bit bus, which would drop the bandwidth to 88 gigabytes per second, and then have eDRAM on chip to bring the performance back up again," said Cerny. While that solution initially looked appealing to the team due to its ease of manufacturability, it was abandoned thanks to the complexity it would add for developers.

Like MS has done so hes taking a cheap shot while pointing out games are going to be harder to develop for MS new console compared to Sonys.
Tsar4ever  +   462d ago
Ya'll think all this ps4 intel is cool then you'll LUV this link. http://www.neogaf.com/forum...

enjoy,
ps3_pwns  +   462d ago
so why do some people not want to get the ps4 with all this news and info is out? everything the xbox 360 has now is whats gonna be on the ps4 except for halo, gears, forza, and 60 dollar online fee and ads. dont see why you guys arent gonna buy a ps4 because thats also what your friends are gonna get especially if it comes out first. its time for people to be gamers and jump on board the best console so we can get the best games.
JsonHenry  +   462d ago
"That lead, naturally, to thoughts about what to do next. Musing on the architecture of Sony's next system, Cerny spent his Thanksgiving holiday reading up on the history of the X86 architecture -- realizing that not only had it evolved dramatically over the years, but that by the time the PlayStation 4 shipped, it would be powerful enough for Sony's needs."

Ugh... this is the most self gratifying thing I've read in a long while.

It should have read 'we looked at the x86 architecture because all of the developers are familiar with it, it has a lower R&D cost, and the parts are dirt cheap and we don't have to come up with our own chips and decided we should have been using this all along'.

Seriously. ANYONE who knows even the smallest bit about hardware knows that the x86 platform has been MORE THAN POWERFUL ENOUGH since inception for any console to use.

I am extremely happy that Sony pulled their heads out of their asses. I will be standing in line to buy a PS4 come launch day which I haven't done for any hardware since the launch of the PS2. But please, Sony. Stop with the dumb articles and intellectually dishonest statements like the one I quoted above. It isn't doing you any favors. The hardware will speak for itself.
jc48573  +   462d ago
you know what's funny and I guess I'm one of the few that feel this way, but Mark Cerny kinda has become the center of attention ever since the announcement of PS4. I mean, he seems like a nice person and I think Sony saw that in him and it's using that to their advantage. Cerny simply looks like the guy you want to make friends with. just look at the photo!
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delboy   462d ago | Trolling | show | Replies(3)
WeAreLegion  +   462d ago | Interesting
Actually, Mark Cerny is a genius. He graduated high school at 12 and had his bachelor's at 15.
Sarobi  +   462d ago
Woah really?, that's pretty damn awesome.
WeAreLegion  +   462d ago
Yes, really. :) I've been studying him since the PlayStation Meeting. I freaking worship this guy now.
Marceles  +   462d ago
Cerny has that "Apple employee spokesperson from Apple ad" feel about him. I don't know his background but seems like he's genuine.
yewles1  +   462d ago
Looks like they're really going for efficiency over pure power for this.

"When we say 1.8 TFLOP/s, we MEAN it this time... with a VENGEANCE!!!" in a nutshell...
I_am_Batman  +   462d ago
Exactly. Just like gaming PCs are build more for efficiency compared to a High End PC. The difference here is that Sony built a system from the ground that doesn't need to run Windows.

I like that they asked dev teams to come with their own ideas for the PS4. That's the reason why everybody seems happy with the final architecture of the system.

Is the PS4 a high end PC? No. More like a super efficient gaming PC.
ps3_pwns  +   462d ago
the ps4 is basically astro boy. small little robot who beats the crap out of huge monster atlus type robots. small but packs a huge punch.
Godchild1020  +   462d ago
I hope they spread those titles out and not just release them in a 3 month window. These games need to be spread out, so the console stays attractive. Please don't don't release a great deal of games too early like you did with the Vita and have months with no retail titles.

I just hope they learn from their mistakes.
KwietStorm  +   462d ago
Learn from their mistakes? With the Vita? It's not up to Sony if developers simply aren't making games for it. It's foreseeable future is looking very good right now, but it's an entirely different situation with the PS4. It's a home console, and developers are very keen on working with it. If it went months or an extended time with no games, then that would mean developers just weren't producing anything, which just doesn't happen. It's not like it's the Wii U where many third party games pass on it.
Godchild1020  +   462d ago
I'm not talking development of the games, I'm talking about a lot of games with its launch window or its first month with no releases 2 months after its releases other than digital titles.

Why release 26 games within its first month and have only 2-3 games a month after its release. Home console or not, they have made mistakes with the PS3 as well. It's all about keeping the momentum and not hoping the current titles released will help keep the system selling.

And how about developer support from their own first party after its launch window and not just within it.

The first 3 months mean a lot for them, but the months after means a lot more for the system and the consumers.
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GribbleGrunger  +   462d ago
Yeah, I agree. I think the 'big splash' in the hope that momentum takes care of itself isn't the best approach unless you have a hell of a lot of content to fill that launch window.
Majin-vegeta  +   462d ago
So pumped for the PS4 can't wait!
http://youtu.be/HRbcfaOD9NU
Sharius  +   462d ago
i see the new CEO in the future
GiantFriendlyCrab  +   462d ago
i heard him talking about that he likes to in work lower management because its more exciting working with developing projects
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r21  +   462d ago
Just when i thought i couldnt like him even more. Cerny FTW :D
truthhurts7400   462d ago | Spam
GribbleGrunger  +   462d ago
It's always fascinating to read what Cerny has to say. This is far too technical for me but I still found it a compelling and informative read.
raWfodog  +   462d ago
"Later, when asked about whether Sony considers the fact that many third party developers will also have to create versions of their games for the next Xbox, his response was, "when I say that our goal is not to create puzzles that the developers have to solve, that is how we do well in a multi-platform world."

Bethesda is breathing a sigh of relief...the PS3 seemed to always be a mystery to them.
Minato-Namikaze  +   462d ago
Every platform is a mystery to Bethesda....the PS3 is just a little more of a puzzle, lol.
ravinash  +   462d ago
Well if the PS4 is as near to a PC as you can get without becoming a PC, I can't see what else you could do to try and make things easier for Bethesda.
violents  +   462d ago
Every game Bethesda makes is a little buggy, but yes they are clueless on a PS3.
asmith2306  +   462d ago
Read this http://books.google.ie/book...

It's a fantastic book. That will clear it up for you :)
GiantFriendlyCrab  +   462d ago
hey this guy cerny reminds me of.....
http://i.imgur.com/vwkoWUn....
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SCW1982  +   462d ago
I didn't understand most of that interview but it was still fascinating.
DJ  +   462d ago
Just finished the entire article, including that part about the L2 cache bypass bus. I can see why so many developers are excited for this platform.
uuaschbaer  +   462d ago
"A *Knack* for development"

... unforgivable...
andrewer  +   462d ago
faaaaaaanboooooys all over the place. Watch out guys, minesweeper for truth-sayers.
ravinash  +   462d ago
What are you on?
defiance187  +   462d ago
He's on about all the fanboy's all up on Cerney's jock.
NarooN  +   462d ago
There's always gotta be that one guy who has to play Devil's Advocate and hate on shit for no reason.
WUTCHUGUNNADO  +   462d ago
"if it had 8 gigabytes of memory on it, the CPU or GPU could only share about 1 percent of that memory on any given frame. That's simply a limit imposed by the speed of the PCIe."

Whoa whoa whoa... like how he took his time machine back to 2003.

PCIe 1.0 x1 = 250Mb/s
PCIe 1.0 x16 = 4,000Mb/s (4gb)
PCIe 2.0 x1 = 500Mb/s
PCIe 2.0 x16 = 8,000Mb/s (8gb)
PCIe 3.0 x1 = 1,000Mb/s (1gb)
PCIe 3.0 x16 = 16,000Mb/s (16gb)

Sauce http://www.hardwaresecrets....

A PCIe 2.0 x16 slot can communicate 8GBs worth of data in a second.
yewles1  +   462d ago
Not what he said. He's expressing the advantages of unified RAM over current RAM discrepancies in PC's.
WUTCHUGUNNADO  +   462d ago
That's not a "current" discrepancy... It's intentionally misleading. I don't see how you gather more than that considering that's all he mentions on the topic. It's a numbers game... there's no way in hell the PS4 will be processing 176GBs of data at any point in it's life span. Everything from now until release is propaganda meant to inspire interest. Of course they'll skew things in their favor.
Computersaysno  +   462d ago
Did he mention the disadvantages of unifed memory like having to share memory bandwidth with the CPU and having very poor latency on CPU fetch which is a critical operation for CPU performance?

PS4 looks like it a much better more rounded machine than PS3 was. But everything is always a compromise, and everything is built to a budget.
Muerte2494  +   462d ago
WUTCHUGUNNADO,
You're clearly talking out of your ass on this one. If you think that Mark Cerny doesn't know what he's talking about, then you're just being in denial.

To even fathom that something which requires a port is faster than something integrated, is preposterous. It's like saying your phone reads it's SD card faster than it's internal memory.

Who exactly are you trying to convince here? You're trying to tell everyone that Cerny, who has been working with computer longer than you've probably been alive, doesn't know what he's talking about. That why ps4 keeps being referred to as a "high end" PC by developers (who builds their game engines using computers).

There you have it folks. Don't believe the guys who make our games using computers. Believe the one random poster trolling a Playstation 4 article.
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yewles1  +   462d ago
@WUTCHUGUNNADO

If it's still going on, then it's current, don't make it seem like I'm saying it's some new obstacle that popped up yesterday. Also, don't gloss over the whole subject:

"One barrier to this in a traditional PC hardware environment, he said, is communication between the CPU, GPU, and RAM. The PS4 architecture is designed to address that problem.

"A typical PC GPU has two buses," said Cerny. "There’s a bus the GPU uses to access VRAM, and there is a second bus that goes over the PCI Express that the GPU uses to access system memory. But whichever bus is used, the internal caches of the GPU become a significant barrier to CPU/GPU communication -- any time the GPU wants to read information the CPU wrote, or the GPU wants to write information so that the CPU can see it, time-consuming flushes of the GPU internal caches are required.""

@Computersaysno

Did you not read the major modifications in the article including the extra busses that fight off such bottlenecks? This is a VERY efficient console, it just lacks the raw power expected from a next gen jump, so they gotta' make the best of it.
hesido  +   462d ago
@Computersaysno: Well, CPU won't eat a lot of bandwidth from that 176GB, CPU's don't need much bandwidth, plus, 176GB/s is plenty to share with. You are right about CPU requiring lower latencies, but using the cache wisely will mitigate this drawback.

Also, most, if not all, games have been GPU bound for quite a while, especially at higher resolutions. PS4's X86 out-of-order execution cores should be able to outperform PS3's PowerPC in-order core for general computing and typical game logic, while the GPU will be happy to do tasks where PC developers normally have to use the CPU for reducing latencies due to the PCI-express bus. On top of it, PS4 will always have 8 cores available for gaming, and developers will precisely know how much computing is available due to the fixed architecture with a predictable latency, whereas on PC you cannot guarantee how many cores you'll have or even how much of those CPU cores you will be able to use any given frame because of the OS and other programs running, and what will the latency be due to people having different CPU's with different size caches with different speed RAMs.
Computersaysno  +   462d ago
The CPU will probably want at least 20GB/s.

Games are increasingly GPU bound partly because console CPU performance has been pretty poor. Just weak general purpose performance from the RISC processors in PS3 and 360.

PS4 has no magic tweaks to save the latency problems that the CPU will have, programmers will just have to deal with it as they have to, compromise...compromise. It is exactly as I said.

The best thing is just it is simple x86 architecture, which means anything they build for PS4 will simply run faster and port straight over to a decent desktop PC CPU. The industry standard across these platforms is now x86.

It isn't really that comparable to PC, because a desktop PC CPU is just gonna be way faster at the things PS4's CPU does, regardless of the PCIe bus.

PS4 is alright but its not stunningly fast or anything mind blowing. Core for core Jaguar is not very fast compared to like even an old Core 2 Quad from 2007.

Its not like unified memory architecture hasn't been done before in a console with Xbox 360. Again I think people are just swallowed up by the hype. 360 hardly blew PS3 away constantly just because it had a more structured unified memory architecture.

It helped for sure, but cmon people please, its not a magic bullet huge advantage. Next Xbox will surely be unified all the same as well. Its just standard stuff now for console design.

Unified memory architecture is a compromise all the same as I said. Its the right choice but also an obvious one.

PS4 has been designed on a much tighter budget than the previous generation, but that is unsurprising!
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hesido  +   462d ago
"Games have been GPU bound because of consoles with weaker CPU's" is massive over-simplification of the situation. Whatever the case, you'll always gain more from having a faster GPU than having a faster CPU, that is the conclusion of several CPU scaling benchmark articles for games.

Here are a few things that will be offloaded to the GPU, typically done on CPU on PC:
Frustum / Occlusion culling
Pathfinding
Asset decompression
Physics

Please take your time to read:
http://www.slideshare.net/z...

Current GPGPU has this very important problem (More important than bandwith limitations): Latency. The scheduling and execution of task has a latency of up to 3 frames, while not a problem for scientific use of GPGPU, it's a real problem for realtime applications such as games. With HSA ans a unified architecture, the results of the GPU compute will be available to the CPU to be used for game logic within the same frame. And PS4 further leverages this by allowing GPU compute to run along with graphics tasks.
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Computersaysno  +   461d ago
It was an oversimplification necessary for my post not to get longer and longer on matters that aren't hugely relevant to this discussion.

I know plenty about GPGPU to understand that the situation is more complex.

Probably why I said PARTLY because console CPU performance has been pretty poor, rather than ONLY. Pointless lecturing me when I know alllllllllll about it hesido. Yawn.

Console CPU performance has been a factor however, GPGPU is about doing something suited better to a parallel architecture like a GPU that previously was probably done on the CPU, slowly.

PS3/360 has meant games have been designed to lever GPU performance better in the absence of serious general purpose CPU performance.

Its just one factor.

But you can't stop the hype.

You babbling on about HSA when these consoles aren't even fully HSA capable is meh to me. Or even imagining that the GPU inside PS4 is particularly powerful.

PS4 will be a fine machine, but lets not swallow up all the hype. We know that with a few useful engineering shortcuts it'll be pretty efficient, but nothing so revolutionary that we haven't seen before, nor so efficient it'll be able to hold a candle to a good gaming PC.

Xbox 360 set the bar for developer friendliness, PS4 and the next xbox are just a natural extension of that.

Both machines will no doubt be very accessible.
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hesido  +   461d ago
You have some good points but, some of your words: "babbling" "meh to me" "pointless lecturing" "yawn"...
I was politely backing my stance with sources for *everyone* to see, but I don't like your condescending attitude.
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mmj  +   462d ago
He says "per frame", not "per second".

If I'm not mistaken PCI-E 3.0 will be able to transfer 266MB 'per frame' at 60fps (16000 / 60).
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WUTCHUGUNNADO  +   462d ago
Per frame is still PCIe 1.0 x1... that's where the 1% ratio comes from.

This is getting into territory that's complicated to explain.

PCIe 2.0 x16 = 133mb per frame @ 60FPS 266Mb @ 30FPS
PCIe 1.0 x1 = 4mb per frame @ 60FPS 8Mb @ 30FPS

1% obviously equates out to 1/100th so even the % he comes up with is skewed lower than it should be.
hesido  +   462d ago
Ok, Mark Cerny clearly knows his stuff.

Please, please, take a look at the following benchmark, for PCI Express 2.0.
http://www.bealto.com/gpu-b...

You'll see 5GB/sec best case transfer rate between GPU and host, although this is for older video cards.

Here's one that is newer includes PCI-express 3:
http://www.behardware.com/a...
You'll see paged pool ram write speed is around 7GB (and 10GB/sec for non-paged memory)

Mind you, that these are purely synthetic benchmarks, no texture copy, no other data transfer other than memory copy operations.

When we take the 5GB/sec figure, at 60fps
5GB/60 = 85MB, pretty much 1% of 8GB. It would be about 2% for mem copy to non-paged pool, or for 30fps. However, this is assuming the GPU is only busy copying data!

So I think Mark Cerny is spot on with his 1% figure.
Niv  +   462d ago
He was talking ps4 buses are 20GB which is faster than 16gb
Sevir  +   462d ago | Well said
Ah Yes, More N4G PC gamers who somehow think they know it all
Over the lead authority on the PS4. its give it a rest, you didn't do the 2 year Pre-R&D on the system, you didn't do focus groups on designing the system, you didn't do benchmarks with the CPU+GPU on the same die, and you certainly aren't any of the myriad of Developers that LOVE the development friendly environment, who also claim from working on the hardware that there is no performance latencies, descrepancies and bottlenecks with system memory.

You guys should really stop pretending you know anything about console development, and really stop comparing consoles to general purpose PCs which are a jack of all trades and a master at non. Honestly, with 3 home consoles and 2 portable ones launched and being in the console business since 1994 don't you think these guys have pretty much figured out what works and what doesn't. These are Vets for crying out loud.

you're really trying to refute the words of 12 first party development studios and over 2-3 dozen more happy third party developers who can only praise Cerny and the PS Hardware Team for the work they did in creating a console that gets it right?

PCs do not equal Consoles so stop comparing them as if they are apples to apples.
Qrphe  +   462d ago
It's hilarious how you have all these people coming downplaying engineers just because they assembled a PC at some point. If you read into what most of these technology "connoisseurs" on this board (or any) have to say you'll find out they're severely misguided.
psn1_arakouftaian   462d ago | Spam
Cryptcuzz  +   462d ago
Read the article and you will know that Mark Cerny and his team designed a third bus for the GPU to access memory directly from the unified memory.

"First, we added another bus to the GPU that allows it to read directly from system memory or write directly to system memory, bypassing its own L1 and L2 caches. As a result, if the data that's being passed back and forth between CPU and GPU is small, you don't have issues with synchronization between them anymore. And by small, I just mean small in next-gen terms. We can pass almost 20 gigabytes a second down that bus. That's not very small in today’s terms -- it’s larger than the PCIe on most PCs!"

As you can see, with how they designed and modified the internal components, they are able to achieve results even faster then your typical PC PCI-Express 3.0 x16.

Time machine back to 2003 you say? More like time machine from the future back to the present time come holiday 2013.
sherimae2413  +   462d ago
good job, mark cerny ^_^
Monkeysmarts  +   462d ago
I'm just glad this wasn't linked to the PC channel.
Baaltohu  +   462d ago
Strange... No sight of pc gamers...
It must be they are totally speechless and ignorant with all the information Cerny has provided :).
sorane  +   462d ago
Sorry I was gaming on a system already more powerful than these budget machines......
kenshiro100  +   462d ago
And still had time to troll...
LordSane  +   462d ago
@shadowgeist00, Steam overlay, you can open browser in game, very useful.
Muerte2494  +   462d ago
You're a complete...
idiot if you think you're gaming rig will be running these "next-gen" engines @ 60fps. You are running current gen engines "native resolution of 1260x720". Yes you increase the resolution but all you're doing is upscaling the image. You better have better frame rates given that those games also run on PS3/360 (6-7yr old tech).

Battlefield 4 engine is a natively 1080p. They required 16gb of DDR3 and a Radeon 7990/Geforce Titan to run it @ 60fps. Sorry you either don't know what you're talking about, or clearly trolling. Either way it's pathetic.
Nitrox  +   461d ago
@muerte
Changing the resolution does not upscale on PC, it is in fact native... Nice try though.
MasterCornholio  +   462d ago
""One thing we could have done is drop it down to 128-bit bus, which would drop the bandwidth to 88 gigabytes per second, and then have eDRAM on chip to bring the performance back up again," said Cerny. While that solution initially looked appealing to the team due to its ease of manufacturability, it was abandoned thanks to the complexity it would add for developers. "We did not want to create some kind of puzzle that the development community would have to solve in order to create their games. And so we stayed true to the philosophy of unified memory."

In fact, said Cerny, when he toured development studios asking what they wanted from the PlayStation 4, the "largest piece of feedback that we got is they wanted unified memory.""

I was wondering why they didnt use cheaper DDR3 ram combined with eDRAM to boost performance.

@Baaltohu

PC gamers? Oh you mean the modern day Aryan race. LOL

Dont worry Ati Elite Master Race will appear sooner or later to force people into believing that consoles are crap and that PCs are the only way to enjoy good games.
#18 (Edited 462d ago ) | Agree(17) | Disagree(3) | Report | Reply
Baaltohu  +   462d ago
Your wonder shows that you are just as ignorant as many others and you just want to act like a pro.
I used to hype for having a PC that can play all games on max settings. But after i had one, i found that it cannot bring the kind of feeling that i had had on a console. And now, the only game that i have spent most of the time on it is DOTA 2.
Here's some of my Crysis 3 on max settings - 1080p.

http://sphotos-e.ak.fbcdn.n...

http://sphotos-a.ak.fbcdn.n...

http://sphotos-b.ak.fbcdn.n...

http://sphotos-a.ak.fbcdn.n...

http://sphotos-f.ak.fbcdn.n...

http://sphotos-d.ak.fbcdn.n...

http://sphotos-g.ak.fbcdn.n...

http://sphotos-e.ak.fbcdn.n...

http://sphotos-d.ak.fbcdn.n...

http://sphotos-f.ak.fbcdn.n...

In my opinion, beside the character models which are awesome, everything else looks underwhelming in comparison with Killzone: Shadow Fall.
Mathew9R   462d ago | Spam
truthhurts7400   462d ago | Spam
violents  +   462d ago
Man my mouth is watering for a ps4, I just hope we finally get a console that might be able to shake a stick at a PC game.
violents  +   462d ago
Why am I getting disagrees? For hoping? Or do you think my mouth isn't watering for a PS4?

Just curious.
Jaqen_Hghar  +   462d ago
A man thinks they probably think you're an elitist even though what you said seems sincere. People are just wary because there are so man PC trolls here.
Ad3rs78   462d ago | Spam
nevin1  +   462d ago
Kutaragi>>>>Carney
#22 (Edited 462d ago ) | Agree(0) | Disagree(9) | Report | Reply
UnSelf  +   462d ago | Intelligent
Kuturagi is like the 3rd hokage - older, wiser, egnimatic, master of various abilities

While Cerny resembles the 4th - young, positive, streamlined, efficient, loved, swift, creator of new unheard of abilities
Djinn  +   462d ago
@unself
Well fucking said!!
Jaqen_Hghar  +   462d ago
a man has never seen a better analogy
Cryptcuzz  +   462d ago
Executed like a true shinobi.

You sir are a boss!
PirateThom  +   462d ago
Young? He's only 6 years younger than Ken. I can't help but feel a lot of people underestimate Mark Cerny and his contributions to gaming.
sway_z  +   462d ago
@Ad3rs78

It doesn't really matter what you or anyone else wanted spec wise...

Sony are delivering the hardware they believe will make it better for developers, publishers, gamers etc...

All this talk is late in the day....PS4 spec is final and will not change.

Now let the games do the talking....
weirdo   462d ago | Trolling | show | Replies(2)
MaryMcNeill24   462d ago | Spam
Arai  +   462d ago
"One thing we could have done is drop it down to 128-bit bus, which would drop the bandwidth to 88 gigabytes per second, and then have eDRAM on chip to bring the performance back up again," said Cerny.

While that solution initially looked appealing to the team due to its ease of manufacturability, it was abandoned thanks to the complexity it would add for developers.

"We did not want to create some kind of puzzle that the development community would have to solve in order to create their games. And so we stayed true to the philosophy of unified memory."

- -

This is like a jab at Microsoft because it's exactly the route they seem to have taken with the Xbox 720 (VGLeaks).

While everything I read about the architecture of the PS4 is great, the one thing I would have gladly see them change a bit would be the GPU....to a HD 7950 instead of the HD 7850.
I'm sure people will disagree again because all they see or care about is "console A > B" or "game A > B".
#26 (Edited 462d ago ) | Agree(0) | Disagree(11) | Report | Reply
nypifisel  +   462d ago
It's neither of those two cards. The GPU is using the same architecture as both of them though (GCN). The GPU will be potent I'm sure. No worries.
mrmancs  +   462d ago
mark cerny is such a well speaking highly intelligent lovely guy , if i was gay i would gay marry him, heck... He is giving us the ps4 i am so happy i may turn gay anyway and ask him to marry me , the cute lovely guy*sighs*
kenshiro100  +   462d ago
O.o
Sevir  +   462d ago
lol, i wish i had an on and off switch for being gay, that way i wouldnt
Have been hazed and abused growing up! What a numb nut.
Cryptcuzz  +   462d ago
Hey Sevir, I always thought you were a pretty cool guy around here, why the hate on this guy man?

He was just playing around and being enthusiastic about Mark Cerny, no need to put him on blast like that.

I am sure all of us has been so happy and enthusiastic about something that lead us to say something random at one point or another.
Sevir  +   462d ago
oh i know, im not necessarily hating on him
It was more my interpretation of what he said with "turning gay" being gay myself i know i didn't just turn over night like a flick of a switch which his comment implies... LOL i'm probably reaching for a bit here and forgive me.

I totally get that he was showing appreciation for Mr.Cerny! and i gave him a bubble! just kinda took the gay part personal because of what i been through growing up.
BABY-JEDI  +   462d ago
This is one of the STRANGEST comments I have ever read on N4G. Congratulations, but I'm not picking up that bar of soap LoL
: P
sway_z  +   462d ago
@Mr Mancs

First of all ....is Mark Cerny actually 'Gay'? I myself have not read anything suggesting he is....

Some well spoken, mild mannered men get labelled 'Gay', but although being Gay should not be an issue with anyone, if Cerny is indeed not 'Gay', then I think we ought to tread carefully with the rhetoric.

However, if he is 'Gay', I don't think it should be brought into the equation.

Straight, Bi or Gay. A good software developer/hardware architect/engineer's sexual preference should have nothing to do with it.
#28 (Edited 462d ago ) | Agree(3) | Disagree(1) | Report | Reply
ravinash  +   462d ago
You do know that @Mr Mancs was just trying to show appreciation for the guy. The gay bit was just a joke.
Sevir  +   462d ago
oh yes we know, but it was really poor attempt.
Lol still, I'll show Mark appreciation by purchasing his latest and greatest, Knack and the PS4!
Arai  +   462d ago
A little supplement to go with this article is something Cerny said before.
Is that they have found a work around for the high latency that GDDR5 brings, I forgot where I read it but it was rather an interesting read as well.
I get a feeling like they took something and improved it tenfold.
#29 (Edited 462d ago ) | Agree(7) | Disagree(1) | Report | Reply
Qrphe  +   462d ago
"Cerny is convinced that in the coming years, developers will want to use the GPU for more than pushing graphics"

This is what AMD is betting on. If GPUs become more important then they'll be up there to lead the way (they need to take this risk too since they're not very well financially). Having most AAA devs develop around APUs will definitely help them. Intel is on the opposite end trying to make CPUs as important as they were since they've given up on selling their systems based on their graphical power. We'll see who wins in the next decade.
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