But "the customers have the decision to buy or not to buy as they see fit" - [OXM UK]
I love Bethesda, but this is a crock of sh!t. Day 1 DLC, is a greedy business practice. Period. If it happens in the way he says, it should be a free day 1 d/l because that would be the right thing to do, considering somebody just dropped $60 on your game. Thanking your fans is better in the long run than always trying to upsell them.
Utterly disagree. If it's not advertised as part of the game you've preordered/bought, it's a separate product, and you have *absolutely* no right to protest about its "omission" from the main game. If the game feels incomplete as a consequence of content being withheld for/development time being devoted to early DLC, fair enough - though I'd argue that what exactly counts as "incomplete" is subject to opinion. But the broad principle of selling add-ons alongside the main game at launch is watertight. Again, you don't get what you didn't pay for.
That's a B.S. argument. Day 1 DLC is pure money grubbing greed. There is literally no reason to not include that DLC, which usually amounts to nothing more that costumes or pathetic weapons but in some cases is much much more (Mass Effect 3 anyone), in the game.
@DK So it's your contention that developers should give you things you haven't paid for?
Regardless of how games are made, meaning I understand the game was finished a while before release and they may have had extra time to work on the dlc before release so it can be available on day one for people, the fact remains that when you have day one dlc people feel like your just planning on milking their wallets. Easy solution, just wait a couple weeks or a month after release then bring out the dlc.
>So it's your contention that developers should give you things you haven't paid for? Wow, I'm surprised you didn't say entitled with the way that was going. If something is ready and able to be released on launch day, not to mention important, but will cost the consumer extra then that's bullshit.
"Wow, I'm surprised you didn't say entitled with the way that was going. If something is ready and able to be released on launch day, not to mention important, but will cost the consumer extra then that's bullshit." So if something is ready and able to be released at the same time as something else, that you're buying separately, you should get the first thing for free? By all means explain your logic. Again, there are dodgy examples of day-one DLC, but there's nothing wrong with the idea on paper.
@dirigiblebill: It's my contention that I paid $60 for a complete game. Day 1 DLC is developed in tandem with the game and its exclusion is unnecessary and insulting. Day 1 DLC always, ALWAYS, creates the question that the game is incomplete. The solution is to either include it in the game, which it should be since it's purposefully withheld in the interest of greed, or release it at a later date to spark new interest in an old game. Is it your contention that cut content should be rewarded? "So if something is ready and able to be released at the same time as something else, that you're buying separately, you should get the first thing for free? By all means explain your logic." You're trapped in the idea that everything is separate and should be paid for separately. Day 1 DLC is cut content. It was content that could have been included in the game (read: meaning the $60 paid for that content) but instead a management decision decided that that content could be separately monetized and that's wrong. It isn't about getting "free" content it's about getting all the content that should have been included in the game. **EDIT** I also find this ridiculous idea of creative designers having nothing but time between when the game is finished to when the game is released to be fishy. When a game is finished, does it not move into the production phase where discs are printed and placed into cases? You're trying to say that the game is left to float giving these people enough time to create DLC for a finished game which, in many cases, is placed on the disc just before shipment to be unlocked by a key? This is greed. It's pure greed. It has nothing to do with employees having dead time. Move them to other projects, and if you don't have a project then come up with one, give them assignments to mull over. Don't try and feed us this B.S. of "well we have to give them something to do, it's not about greed it's about time management."
Once upon a time, you simply unlocked new characters and skins. Now you pay for them day one. Once upon a time, developers valued their customers enough to understand that $60 IS a lot of money. Once upon a time, games where shipped complete and if not, FULL expansions were sold at fair prices.
"You're trapped in the idea that everything is separate and should be paid for separately." Because that's the way it is. If you're not told to expect it, don't ask for it - content that's neither designed to be part of nor promoted as part of the game it's associated with cannot, by any reasonable and proportional measure, be considered "cut content". Why is that so hard to grasp? I can understand you finding fault with particular examples of the practice, but why dismiss the whole concept out of hand? You can't see the wood for the trees, it seems.
FF13-2 was in incomplete game, when you made it to the cansio and tried poker, it says you have to have the DLC. I also think day 1 DLC is bullshit because the more it happenes the more they will try to pull what happened in FF13-2
If a game is being developed, and the devs decided to release "extra content" along side the game release, then that is content cut out of the game. Why not make it part of the initial game if was developed in tandem. There is no logical reasoning, beside pure greed. Defend this practice all you want but it's wrong and setting up a bad precedence. One of the best examples is when Mass Effect 3 released their from the ashes day one dlc. That content was ripped out the main story. Basically finding a living Prothean, probably the most important discovery to the trilogy and something crucial to the story. But they messed it up, by cutting that content out and releasing it as day one dlc, knowing very well how important it would be to the fans. Pathetic practice and any developer who stands by this practice should be ashamed.
I don't understand why you are defending this.. I think it's already lame when dlc comes out a month after the game launches. But day one dlc is much worse, it's content that is being developed at the same time as the game, which they then hold back so people have to pay additional money. Sometimes the content is already on the disc, but isn't unlocked untill you buy a licence. A good example is bioshock 2, the day-one DLC let you raise the multiplayer level cap from 40 to 50 and unlocking some skins, weapons and perks. The content is unlocked by downloading a licence for 400 msp.. It's even so that people that don't have the dlc could play with the ones that had without needing a patch, since all the stuff was already on the disc. I love bioshock, but that's just low. also i don't understand why bethesda is defending this, i can't recal they ever released day-one dlc
You must work for a game company, dirigiblebill. Day one DLC shows nothing but disrespect for the customer. When I purchase any other product in the word. I'm not asked to pay extra for anything. (minus warranties) If I buy a hat for my favorite sports team I'm not asked to buy the logo because the hat was made separate. If I buy a game day one. I should get all day 1 content. Period.
Sigh. So much noise and recrimination and bluster and not one real, rational answer to the question: why should anybody give you something they haven't promised you? What difference does release timing make to the bare, obvious truth that you're not entitled to everything? I don't work for a games company, no - and frankly, if this is the sort of mind-boggling horsesh*t developers have to put up with, I very much doubt I ever will.
@dirigiblebill: Music is announced with the game, yet each game has a musical score. Side-quests aren't typically announced with games, yet most have them. I can cite many examples of content not announced with games, yet they are a part of the total game. This is no different. If a developer is capable of putting the DLC on the finished product before the game is released, then not doing so is clearly an example of greed and not a logistical issue. That's why it's wrong. It's content that could easily be part of the $60 game but they don't want to give everyone the complete experience, instead they want to milk everyone. As someone has previously stated, time was we had unlockables. Unlockables were "day one DLC" that was put on the disc at no charge. What's the difference between then and now?
I think you're missing the point @dirigilebill It's true it isn't advertised, however it is a show of appreciation to the consumer. It's a good business plan for customer relations with the developer. This will galvanize loyalty (sometimes) with the developer.
Most gamers disagree with you. Look at all those disagrees. Why have DLC on the first day? That is greedy if it isn't free.
Your ignorance in this is staggering. First off, you're siding with a corporation. That's almost NEVER a good idea, as a consumer. MOST of their practices are geared more toward making money off of you than keeping you satisfied. Second, while the existence of Day 1 DLC is fine, CHARGING for it just is not. I cannot fathom how you can be okay with extra content being released alongside the game you just purchased for additional money. As others have noted, just last generation, all these extra costumes and missions and such would have been unlockable in-game without the need for paying more money. But now it's after-release stuff, right along with bug and glitch fixes. Third, there's a difference between just DLC released after the game comes out, and DLC available the SAME DAY the game is available. As has been said to you by plenty of others already, it just FEELS like a ripoff to consumers when they don't even get the illusion of leaving the store with the whole game the very day it comes out. Even IF it's ready Day 1, it would appear much better to the consumer if it wasn't immediately available. Fourth, Bethesda's history of less-than-solid releases- across all platforms- makes them not the most reliable to hear this sort of thing from. If they hadn't had so many issues with their releases, their message might be better received, but when even the PC version of your games need extensive work by the mod community to be at its best, you just come off as self-serving. I seriously can't believe you're supporting them on this. I can't believe ANY GAMER would want to do that. Company bottom line be damned; I'll ALWAYS side with the consumer, and Day 1 DLC is definitely NOT on our side.
I think dirigiblebill is a Bethesda employee.
how about offering day 1 dlc free for the first 30 days so the gamers who dropped 60 bucks can get it for free? after 30 days put a price tag on it for gamers who buy it later or the ones who bought it used.
That would be great! They probably don't do that because they know the people who purchased the game on day 1 are fans and are the ones who will end up purchasing all the DLC anyway.... Might as well charge for it and double dip on your most loyal customers. GREED
Excellent idea! I stopped buying games at $60 a year ago when I finally realized I was spending like $90 with all the dlc to get a complete game.
Their greedy ass tactics now have me waiting until a nice price drop and sometimes even just passing over the game completely.
Their greed might have been good for their short term gain, but they're going to feel it in this next gen if more gamers are now aware of how they like to milk us.
And they have the nerve to wonder why sales are flat.
well bethesda is wrong sorry. Im sure all that crap they are trying to sell like skins, horse armor and extra weapons could be on the disk. I understand some things wont make it and could still not be ready by release day, but not as many as these developers want us to beleive. You mean to tell me that bioware didnt just take out the prothian so they could sell him for 10$ mroe? They really needed that extra time to finish that DLC? I really doubt that. Clearly developers think they can educate us on why fleecing is acceptable. Im srue the situation isnt the same for each developer, but with all the little pieces of content that are available for purchase every time a new game launches Id have to think bethesda is FULL OF SHIT and almost all of that content could have been included in the final game. Not to mention how many of them are just kbs of data that unlock something that is already on the disk.
It's true. We're all ignorant boobs over here. No clue what's going on. This is further evidenced by Bethesda's on-going success in the face of their continued belittling directly to their customers' faces. Can I have Fallout 4 now, please?
@Koehler83, how dare you ask for Fallout4??!?
You need to first find out if the brave, smart kind talented men and women of the community (forums, guys that mod) are prepared to fix the broken mess its bound to be when it hits retail.
The Mod Squad are always ready.
Bethesda i am a huge fan but if you have preorder exclusive dlc i will not buy your game.
Lets look at that statement... So if they had a GENERAL pre order bonus that was given to all the major retailers and steam. Say it was something simple like an extra perk in Fallout 4, and then they let people who DIDN'T pre-order pay for the DLC. That gives incentive for people to pay for it on day 1. Also if you weren't going to buy a game because of pre order bonus which means you had no intention of paying for it day 1. Ergo no a "huge fan", Bethesda spends a lot of time on their games and delivers a top quality product to it's fanbase (Nothings perfect so glitches are expected). Sorry it's like when I see people hating on Steams new "Pre-Order Bonus System" which is bitchin!
If people still buy the DLC, they will keep doing it. I don't really have a problem with it though, unless it was already on the disc (like ME3).
How do you know what is on the disc dlc and what isn't? It's not hard for a company simply to leave content out and then start working on it later. The more blatant and honest developer just release it day 1, everyone else just wait a bit and claim it isn't on the disc dlc. Yet they are releasing new content like 2 weeks after the game is out. Polished content takes a great deal longer than 2 weeks or 1 month to make for these bigger titles. This content was being made before the game ever released and it should be free as an incentive to those who brought the game. Instead they charge you 5 to 10 dollars more.
Normally what's on-disc is unlocked with a 100KB key.
Bethesda isn't Bioware...THANK GOD!
I will take Bethesda seriously when...
- they ship a complete game.
-make an effort to not release it bug laden.
-and stop lying. (hard to code for OR timed exclusive?)
Its funny how hard it was to sort the PS3 DLCs out, yet when it hit 2013, they all flew unto PS Store in quick succession...
you kind of stole what i was going to say lol "stem from lack of knowledge about how games are made" -judging from the fact that none of their games in recent years have shipped free of game crashing bugs, i think its a safe bet to say the lack that same knowledge lol all jokes aside, i love their games mostly but day 1 dlc is trash.
If you want the content in the game, put it in the game before release. Bethesda your a publisher, no one is forcing you to release. I'd be happy if we could just get rid of DLC all together. It was the single most damaging thing for the consumer this generation. All it does is give companies excuses to hold back content to charge extra for. Catwoman on disk day one DLC Prothean on disk day one DLC ect.
Some of the best gaming experiences out there are DLC. Paying 5 bucks here and ten bucks there can extend the life of a game by double or more. I would never want to go back to the time before DLC.
Self opinionated gamers are misinformed? im shocked xD Of course gamers know squat, they dont know how games are made, how games are published or how the internal development is for those companies. They just want to talk crap because thats what they do best.
As a paying customer, it is our right to question, questionable business practices.
Its not the questioning that is being criticized, is the bashing based on poor information. Questioning is giving the benefit of the doubt, which never happens from the gamers part. Lets face it, its monkey behavior.
"They just want to talk crap because thats what they do best." You must be a gamer. ;)
Bestheda's curse is that they try to push the envelope of cutting edge graphics + open world combat against dated console hardware with low ram. I think this is why that have some of the issues they have. As far as dlc, if its just cosmetic costume's, it doesn't bother me because im not going to buy it anyway. If it's extra content, it would be better to wait a few months if only for the perception of it.
Cutting edge graphics? - there's nothing cutting edge in reusing an engine that is now pushing 8yrs old - nothing.
Let me break down how much failure is involved in your comment. For starters alot games, Halo for example, use 6-8 old engines but they have been revamped and retooled to look great in the most current edition of the engine. Obviously Skyrim looks much better than Elder Scrolls. Second, an open world game vs an on the rails game with already be somewhat handicapping itself on dated hardware. Third, Skyrim graphics look great. So basically Barbwire nothing about anything you said made any sense at all and I seriously am left wondering if youve ever even played the game.
Lets say that all of that is true. So how about On disc DLC? How about games like AC black flag that are still months away and they already annouced DLC for the various editions? How about the "true ending" of games being sold as DLC? We gamers are not getting screwd only by day 1 DLC, we are getting screwd at every turn.
What of it? They can't announce DLC until a certain time now? And the ME3 ending DLC was free, because some people didn't like the ending. This does not count as one of EA's many crimes.
And I say, the creation of Day 1 DLC stems from lack of knowledge about how to run an ethical & customer friendly business. Instead of worrying about creating Day 1 DLC, gaming companies should be focusing on giving their customers the bug free and complete Day 1 gaming experience that they have already paid $60 for. Once you have successfully completed that task you can spend time creating DLC, since you won't need to spend it creating a patch to fix your broken games.
best point ever. Post of the day!
I agree but there might never be a bug free game shipped. There's always the possibility that someone will run into a bug slash glitch that tester may not find. Even when I was programming this flash game I kept running into bugs even though I fallowed everything by the book. I still agree with you though but as games get bigger and longer and the industry grows finding and squishing every-bug is almost impossible.
Amen to that!
Perception of arrogance stems from not knowing when to shut your mouth.
Most gamers ARE pretty ignorant to the development process; we just pay and play. There are time constraints and sometimes they simply do not have enough time to finish a project that they'd like to incorporate into the full game. So what are they supposed to do if they can't finish a project before the time limit? They work on it during the time between the due date and launch date, then release it as DLC. As for why they can't release it for free, it's not like their superiors and contracts will allow that. THAT should be obvious. I also see people complaining about them not just taking more time with the game. This is a silly complaint. Those time limits are reinforced by contracts. They can't just ignore that and postpone the product, they'd be breaking the contractual agreement and could be sued. While we may be paying customers, we're not entitled to have them work miracles for us. If the DLC is that much of a grievance, then simply choose not to buy it. There isn't a higher power forcing your hand, just say no. I'll probably get a lot of disagrees for all of this, but whatever. Now, if the DLC is shipped on-disc and the key to unlock it has to be paid for, then THAT is bullshit. As for the various bugs in their games, I WILL give them shit about that as well. That's simply a product of poor programming and design.
Then don't make the damn dlc day one, knowing how most will react to it. At least have the courtesy to release it some weeks after. Pay $60, then releasing some content along side it the same day for another fee is just insulting to your paying customers.
Since no one has made a game with the scope, content and complexity of a TES game without it being glitchy, I'll cut them significant slack.
Let your money talk for you. If day1 DLC insults you so much, don't buy it. Personally, it doesn't bother me.
Your comment is probably the 2nd most logical thing said on this article
Gamers are self entitled fools sometimes. Everyone who complains about day 1 dlc or dlc in general just look so immature and ignorant to how business works, or how salaries are paid, or how contractual time agreements work. You got your game. So don't buy the flashy costume or weapon skin, so what. Grow the fuck up. Bring the disagrees.
*facepalm* Dude, Assassin's Creed 2's DLC destroys your entire comment.
@ Optimisticprime There's nothing optimistic or prime about that statement. Games got along just fine for generations without this kind of BS business practice and it can be done again. It's sad when so many people have so little money and your here defending giant business for charging for things that were free or included with the game only ONE GENERATION AGO. I think the problem is some people have nothing better to do than throw their money around and pretend it makes them better for not being "entitled".
What a dumb use of my handle in your comment. My comment is of utmost optimism towards the companies who bring us these games, just not towards the gamers who will whine about every fucking thing under the sun. "60 is too much already!" "Dlc is too expensive for me!" Find a cheaper fucking hobby then. You're right, games did. And they still get along fine if you choose not to buy dlc. You know what would have made Primal Rage even cooler? If you could buy new characters if you wanted to down the road. If you didn't want to? Fuck it! You still got the game the way it was intended. You proved my point, man. Ignorant gamers will whine 24/7 about everything going on in the industry.
Yea gaming is getting great since the inclusion of DLC. Love annual releases and the same boring and stale systems being used in each game? DLC is part of that since devs and publishers can just make DLC for their game instead of releasing different games or new IPs. All those people coding and testing DLC could be working on something far more original than a couple of new characters or a raise in the level cap that should have been there in the first place. And if this stuff IS unnecessary or just added fluff then why buy it or make it in the first place? Every practice an industry engages in has ramifications to other parts of the industry and this is not a healthy standard to set. Just wait till you have to pay per hour for your game, or companies start forcing always online connections and watch your living room with sensors...
OptimisticPrime: Seriously, how many stable adults run around telling other people to 'grow the fuck up'? Maybe you need to take your own advice. We have just as much right to our opinion as you do, if you don't like it that is too darn bad.
You're absolutely right, you do. But after reading 60 comments in a row of *children* whining about everything possible, it's true, they need to "settle the fuck down". Everyone has a right to their opinions, but I'm not required to respect those ignorant, uneducated opinions from people who don't know how business works and are seemingly too poor for this hobby in the first place
You do realize that your attitude is just as bad. Plus you are making a lot of assumptions. There is a difference between being poor and being frugal. Just because you have money doesn't mean you shouldn't question how much something cost. Some of the wealthiest people alive are very frugal, which is one of the reason's they hold on to their money.
Have no issues w/ DLC, enjoy some of the buys I have made . but please do enlighten those that do nothing but cry about how a con it is . Maybe they will finally STFUA
bethesda's sure one to talk about how games are made...
I understand where they are coming from. The creative staff are left doing nothing while others are still coding and playtesting. The staff then work on some dlc until the game has gone gold. After the rest of the staff come along and finish it. Getting a dlc cert is quicker than the game so it is usually ready at launch.
Here's a great idea guys! If you don't want the DLC then don't pay for it. If you feel that the game is incomplete, then return it. If you feel that the industry is screwing you over, then don't support the industry. If you want something to change, then develop a piece of work that YOU feel doesn't follow the norm. Nothing is going to get done the longer you bitch and moan. Get your asses up and go do something that will change all this rather than attack a goddamn BUSINESS. Before any of you decide to start a comment war with me, go and read up on game creation and development then we can talk. Dislikes = High Fives