GC: "Sony has been pushing the fact that the PS4 is incredibly simple to develop for."
7870 has the same pixel throughput and the 680gtx.
Should be good.
Agreed, PS4 will be impressive. Not sure what you're trying to get at with the pixel rate thing though... Do you understand what your talking about or is that just another cherry-picked spec you want to throw out there to try and convince yourself that the PS4 competes with $1000+ gaming PCs? http://anandtech.com/bench/...
My system has 2.2 Tflops in its GPU and a 5 year old CPU. I believe a PS4 can match up to it or surpass it. One thing to remember is that a console is geared to play games. So its software and hardware could be utilized to a greater extent than what someone has to go through with Windows in the middle. Some optimization and work we could see something similar to Unreal Engine 4's Infiltrator real time demo which runs on a GTX 680(3 Tflops). Showcases many effects even from that Samaritan GDC 2012 demo. The landscape backdrop in one scene reminds me of Killzone Shadow Fall instantly. Not likely on day 1 though. At some point considering the bandwidth and all of the GPU in the system. http://www.youtube.com/watc...
console games aren't as optimized as people think. http://www.youtube.com/watc... console like performance at console like specs. Nobody wants to be stuck at just barely good enough to play performance though, just like nobody wants to have an iPhone 3g in 2013. Keep in mind that pc games get optimized over time, console games have been limited in this regard so far. Nvidia works really hard to make sure pc games run well, AMD does their best to catch up. Console makers do their best to keep you buying games and dlc, especially on the xbox where its simply ridiculous. Another similar comparison could be android devices vs ios devices. iOS is much more closed and in theory gets much better performance, but its not nearly as different as you would think. Lets look at the galaxy s3 vs the iphone 5, the iphone 5 feels better in games, but the s3 has a gpu equivalent to the 4s in power. So then lets compare the s3 to the 4s, quite similar arent they?
whats more powerful a nintendo wii (with a penguin club subscription for the under 5's) or a 5000 dollar PC with a wireless machine gun and a vibrating chair and nipple electrodes? I just made that up actually because i'm bored . statistics show that there are less than 800 pc gamers in the whole world and 72% of them are morbidly obese and smell of wee . PS4 sounds pleasant
who the fuck cares if it cant compete with a$1000 PC, if i wanted something that powerful i would get the damn Pc , but most people cant afford it or like me dont want it. I understand its more powerful and looks prettier but idc i enjoying the console experience so fuck the PC. but if you enjoy it then good for you
madmike- Lol, that name seems to suit you well... I wasn't saying that PS4 SHOULD compete with a top-end gaming rig. Maybe it was a poor choice of words. Just saying that people on this site should stop grasping at straws trying make a case that that PS4 is going to possess the same raw power as one. It's just ridiculous. I know games aren't really going to appear drastically different between the two in most cases. The extra power of a good PC isn't going to change the fact that the game assets are created at a certain detail level and anything higher is impossible (without the use of mods). The extra power does, however, allow for things like smoother frame rates, better AA, better physics, better particle effects, multi-monitor support, higher resolution, better 3D experience, etc... A lot of that stuff doesn't matter to most gamers anyway, so I just get annoyed to see PSfanboys on this site keep throwing around various specs trying to hype up a machine that is no doubt going to be worth what it's worth, but no more. Hell, I'm probably going to get one at / close to launch but I'm not going to pretend it's something it isn't. Sorry I blew up...
The Ps4 will be a great machine for the cost and exclusives we'll be getting, to make it simple for you "pc elitists" we, console gamers don't care if your 1000$ high end pc is better, to me at least, it wont be so high end when new parts come out, making you buy sh#t at least once a year to keep it ”high end". Like I posted before, all th time I see you pc dudes posting on console articles all that comes to my mind is that you seek attention no matter what, attention that you never get anywhere else but with your mother since you live in her basement. So every time I see a pc dude bragging about this and that, it'll be my duty to paste this same exact message. Ps4 4 life mofos.
If the PS4 launches like the PS3, it will fail hard.
I think you fail hard at everything in life so you take pleasure from saying things will fail, you are just a big wait for it......Epic fail, lame joke I know
I don't know anything of these tech terms, but there's only one thing I want to know... Will I be able to stream porn in HD on my console? If so, I can livestream the results to everyone, thanks to the share button. Innovative thinking, via PS4 :P
So the CPU will be able to do graphical tasks as well, the main reason for why some PS3 exclusives blow all the 360's out of the water. I like it.
No. The reason is that ps3 is just more powerful than xbox 360, but to use this power you need to invest more time into development, due to ps3 complicated architecture, something that multiplatform titles can't do, and thats why many of them are working worse on ps3 than xbox360. In the end it doesn't matter how something works, it only matters how much power you can achieve, and with ps3 you can achive more than xbox360, but you need to be a sony in house company, like ND etc.
you're speaking the truth and people disagree with you but DigitalSmoke's comment is all wrong but people agree with him. This type of thing only happen on N4G. lol In fact, to give more credibility to your comment just read this: Air-Edel's Chris Green "The roll back to x86 technology (PC technology) should make it a lot easier and quicker for studios to create and optimise cross-platform games, and get up and running quickly when the new systems come out, something that the PS3 had issues with. "Also, I feel the x86 platform was what helped the XBox 360 get such a strong hold in the market even though the PS3 was on paper a better machine, because the developers felt more comfortable writing for it. In my opinion it was only really the PS3 exclusive games that showed off the system to its full potential." http://www.develop-online.n...
What!? No!.. You guys are badly informed, to say the least. Multiple developers offloaded graphical tasks to the SPE's, and then feed the RSX/GPU. From post process effects to vertexes adding final poly count. neoandrew and wishingW3L should both do some research, vote on that!
DigitalSmoke you really have no idea what you're talking about. -___- How am I badly informed when I'm directly quoting a game developer? And that second reply of yours doesn't even makes sense because nobody's arguing that. =/ You said: "So the CPU will be able to do graphical tasks as well" and I'm saying that you're wrong because that is the truth. That CPU is just a general purpose CPU and doesn't has SPUs so it CAN'T render graphics. You're just making that up by misinterpreting the quote.
to be clearer, the CPU (on the PS4) DOES NOT do graphical tasks (it CAN'T), what it does is that it "stacks" them for program execution. That's what Run-Time System means. http://en.wikipedia.org/wik... and I repeat myself again. Cerny is talking about efficiency not capabilities.
Smoke is actually right, but when it comes to the PS3 and the Cell. The Cell was supposed to act as the CPU and GPU but bottlenecks killed the ability to do what they thought it could. That and the Cell just not having as much power as was first thought. The Cell is a major reason not to believe specs. Even the chip designers get it wrong. R & D is so expensive because of mistakes and the inability to just print chips that work right every time. It's trial and error sometimes. AMD CPU don't do GPU functions. They help keep things in order. HSA features of AMD APUs allow the CPU and GPU to write to each other, but it is only to hand off thing best fit for each part. But I'm not sure what the limits are since I still haven't heard anyone mention if this is a full HSA chip or not. If it is, PCs will have a fight on their hands until they move to HSA parts. Once that happens, the consoles will get left far behind. But it will take a couple of years(maybe 18 months) I believe. Smoke is smoking on the blow out of the water part though. It is more powerful. But not by a huge amount. The PS3 wasn't just more powerful. The GPU wasn't nearly as good as the one in the 360. But the Cell was much better than the CPU in the 360.
that's not what they are saying... They are talking about replicating the efficiency not its capabilities. Cores can't render graphics, SPUs are not normal cores.
"Cores can't render graphics, SPUs are not normal cores." you do not know very much about SPE core's: first of all they are in fact true processing core's with direct DMA to each other SPE's Local store. Dr. Hofstee exaplains it very well: Cell's chief architect, Dr. H. Peter Hofstee, advised us not to characterize the SPEs as specialized co-processors, dedicated to occasional tasks such as graphics or arithmetic. In that story, we compared SPEs to the co-processors of old, and characterized them as subordinate to the principal processing element of the Cell system, the Power Processing Element (PPE), based on the existing PowerPC architecture. But in doing so, Dr. Hofstee warned, we tended toward a trap into which others have fallen, in which the role of the SPEs appears to be reduced in importance. More than just co-processors, Dr. Hofstee said, the SPEs are fully-capable processing units that are capable not only of running threads spawned off from a main program, but also running "single-core," scalar programs in their entirety - not only multithreading, but multitasking. also this is exactly what they are describing to use the SOC of the PS4! "“We’re trying to replicate the SPU Runtime System (SPURS) of the PS3 by heavily customizing the cache and bus,” he said. ”SPURS is designed to virtualize and independently manage SPU resources. For the PS4 hardware, the GPU can also be used in an analogous manner as x86-64 to use resources at various levels. “This idea has 8 pipes and each pipe(?) has 8 computation queues. Each queue can execute things such as physics computation middle ware, and other proprietorially designed workflows. This, while simultaneously handling graphics processing.”"
I love how people are disagreeing with you. It's funny and just goes to show how ignorant they are. They're completely misunderstanding what Cerny is saying. A CPU cannot render graphics, they don't work that way. CPU's do the number crunching and they prepare data for the GPU to process, etc. SPU/SPE are completely different and are NOT normal cores. The Cell only had 1 proper core.
" love how people are disagreeing with you. It's funny and just goes to show how ignorant they are. They're completely misunderstanding what Cerny is saying. A CPU cannot render graphics, they don't work that way. CPU's do the number crunching and they prepare data for the GPU to process, etc. SPU/SPE are completely different and are NOT normal cores. The Cell only had 1 proper core." you go on to state this: "SPU/SPE are completely different and are NOT normal cores. The Cell only had 1 proper core." Speak for yourself it seem's you are the one that as you said: just goes to show how ignorant they are. They're completely misunderstanding what Cerny is saying Again DR. Hofstee , you know the main person along with a team, that designed the SPE's would know what the SPE's are or are not. Dr. Hofstee explains it very well: Cell's chief architect, Dr. H. Peter Hofstee, advised us not to characterize the SPEs as specialized co-processors, dedicated to occasional tasks such as graphics or arithmetic. In that story, we compared SPEs to the co-processors of old, and characterized them as subordinate to the principal processing element of the Cell system, the Power Processing Element (PPE), based on the existing PowerPC architecture. But in doing so, Dr. Hofstee warned, we tended toward a trap into which others have fallen, in which the role of the SPEs appears to be reduced in importance. More than just co-processors, Dr. Hofstee said, the SPEs are fully-capable processing units that are capable not only of running threads spawned off from a main program, but also running "single-core," scalar programs in their entirety - not only multithreading, but multitasking. they are Full processing core's the cell is a Hybrid core CPU/GPU PROCESSOR. http://www.lanl.gov/orgs/hp... the Cell IS MULTI-CORE, YOUR PROCESSOR IS NOT MULTI-CORE IF THERE IS ONLY ONE CORE! Thus by the people with DR. in engeneering before the fraking name , i think know a little about what is or is not a freaking True processing core!
@joeorc SPE's are not normal cores. They are able to run some of the same programs because they were designed that way, but they are NOT NORMAL CORES. The fact that they are called SPE's instead of just being called cores should have made that obvious. They are different. Just because they work in a similar fashion does not make them the same thing.
Nah Halo 4 look as good or better than any ps3 exclusive sir
Plz tell me you dont really believe that plz.
#2.3 Interesting comment. You're wrong.
Haha no you're crazy, Halo 4 doesn't look anything near Killzone 2, let alone KZ3.
It's nice to see Sony finally making a system that will make things smooth for developers. I don't expect any multiplats to suffer or delays like we seen on the PS3. As for the launch you don't really want to have too many titles. I'd like them to be spaces apart with strong titles having a constant flow throughout the year.
Thats good trying to copy on what was from the cell making the cpu do the graphics side aswell as the gpu hence its 8 cores they could possible do more with the graphics side of it
ps4 will gonna make me jobless
Then you you won't have two jobs to afford the new Playstation! :D
Do you really need two jobs to get a potential 400 dollar machine?
I think that this eliminates any reasons for a shoddy game caugh*Bethesda*caugh
Nice to see the PS4 in such a dominate position.
LMFAO it's not released yet and the next xbox hasn't been announced yet. So where is this "dominance?" From the media? HA HA HA HA HA Ya like the the media have anything else to talk about. All they can do is make up rumors about the next xbox and praise a console that doesn't exist. Not even at it's revealing. LMFAO
A console that doesn't exist :S ? So even though it has been officially announced and the hardware details revealed, it still doesn't exist? stop being silly, theres a reason you have one bubble.
yet it was the media that may have "won" this current generation for the 360 (excluding the Wii)... the media often smashed the PS3 for having "no games" and its shotty ports...never bothering to actually put things in perspective of difficult development... it was never the developers fault...simply the PS3's... the media's portrayal of the PS3/360 influenced A LOT of people's perception..especially early on... on the flip side the PS4 seems to be a media darling...very little negative attention at this point (though that could change with a price announcement like the PS3 ie: $600!!) there is LOTS of excitement surrounding the PS4 right now (and for good reason) the devs are loving it, the media loves it
The PS4 doesn't exist? It has it's specs, it's games, it's controller, it's hardware, developer support and release window.So how does it not exist. The next Xbox doesn't even have any of those things yet officially but that doesn't stop people from boasting about it.
@Lvl_up_gamer Come on. You know Sony is magic. Of course the PS4 is dominate. It's brought to you by the same people that brought you the Cell. The chip capable of handling the functions of the GPU and CPU all in one. Well, at least on paper. So if Microsoft hasn't officially announced their piece of paper we have to believe Sony is dominate. It's only logical. Right? Kinda. Well at least they went to a company that does know how to put a GPU and CPU on the same chip this time. But let's wait to see what Microsoft has anyway. Once we see their piece of paper we'll know for sure. Kinda.
Yes. By all means, pretend the completely inane crap he said was true. I mean, the PS4 doesn't exist? Really?
Of course the PS4 exists but to say it is in a dominant position is very misleading. What exactly is it dominating? We know nothing about the next Xbox that's been confirmed and the PC already exists. We also don't even know the price of the PS4 and who's it's main competition is just yet. Everything we have heard about the PS4 thus far sounds very promising but the problem is we have members who are all too eager to start console wars which leads to immature dialogue we have seen far too often from the current gen. Most of it stemming from Microsoft and Sony camps. It looks like that will once again carry on as well. Some people just need to get a life and simply enjoy the system they purchased and stop worrying about what the competition is doing if all that is to come about it is to annoy the other community.
Hicken learn to not hang onto one report or line of a report. The PS4 exist only as a name and a partial spec. Sony has said that the specs aren't set. So until they are it doesn't really exist. The case hasn't even been set. And it can't be dominate when we don't know what the other player is bring to the game. All of the leaked 720 designs that show a complete system show two or three CPUs and two GPUs. The GPUs attached to the 720 have been the same one as the PS4 with 4 fewer cores and an older version of the same GPU that has been modified. The system designs also show all of the parts working together on the same North(? not sure they're calling it that) and South Bridge. In an HSA system like the 720 and the PS4, that second GPU is just like having a much larger GPU. It can help when needed. Same for the CPU. The current PS4 design uses the same GPU and CPU for everything. It also has a CPU in the North Bridge. So it's Two CPUs and One GPU. The 720 could be as many as 3 CPUs and 2 GPUs. Plus 4 of the GPU cores of the PS4 are set aside for compute functions. The 720 could use part of the other GPU for that. So if the 720 has that setup, all 12 GPU core could work Graphics while the part of the other GPU works AI and Physics and a core or two of the other CPU helps keep everything moving. Which would make it a much better system. The reported ARM CPU would handle security and Apps. We know there are dev kits out there. But final specs(maybe not there) only exist on paper now and nothing is set so like the PS4 we still have to wait. http://www.neogaf.com/forum...
Everything I hear is positive its shaping up to look great for ps4 cant wait!
Mark Cerny is doing a great job, PS4 promises to be incredible machine. Not only he is interested in the hardware, I read yesterday that He contacted Yu Susuki to launch Shemue 3 in PS4. :)
Yea they talked about Shenmue III at GDC. theres a pic of both Cerny and Shenmue creator Yu Suzuki together at the event all over the web. Yu Suzuki created some great AAA games for Sega back in the day. It would be amazing to have him create exclusive games like Shenmue III for the PS4 !
I really like this guy, i loved the way he conducted himself when revealing the ps4 and his ideas, anyways i really want to see Extermination, Heavenly Sword, MediEvil, Syphon Filter, The Getaway, Legend of Dragoon, Dark Cloud and Rogue Galaxy making a comeback next gen.
It looks like they're exploring SPU emulation on the PS4, which could lead to backwards compatibility.
I don't believe it's for backwards compatibility. They seem to customizing it to a point were the cpu can used as a light hybird. The PS3's Cell in it's later years was used an unofficial hybird of sorts. My guess is that some devs have come to realize the potential in the odd dynamic between CPU & GPU the ps3 offered. The ps4 would be that much more flexible If they can replicate that kind of capability.
Some more Awesome PS4/Cerny news. Sony PlayStation 4 lead architect Mark Cerny and Shenmue creator Yu Suzuki have discussed strategy for Shenmue III at the Game Developers Conference in San Francisco. This was confirmed by GDC Events General Manager Meggan Scavio. Could this mean Shenmue III may finally get the green light on PS4? - magicbox.com Gotta love Cerny , hes the man!
Firstly, PS4 GPU is 1.82 TFlops @800MHZ! Indicating it is downclocked to 800mhz from 1GHZ. It isnt a 7850 but a 7870 downclocked.
That 1.82TFlops is also GPU alone.
They have not released what the Jaguar CPUs are clocked at.
In a device like a tablet that relies on batteries, they are capable of being 1.6GHZ.
In a system like this, their low heat and power default would still allow them to be over clocked at 2.03GHZ each. Factor that into the 1.82TFlops.
I also believe, seeing as the whole setup is an APU and the CPU takes so little power and produces so little heat, a few years into its life cycle, Sony will push the GPU back up to 1GHZ pushing the PS4 to 2.7-2.8TFlops.
The ps4 gpu,I believe was based on the radeon 7970m,a mobile version of radeon 7870 but in stead of 1ghz for the desktop and 850MHz for the mobile version.
Overclock via update? Allowing this would fall in line with a "sort of" two tier system.
So you seem to think that because its an APU design that its not outputting that much heat... That's the whole reason that they underclock the chip from the start is for reliability and to reduce overheating issues! The total system performance of the PS4 is 1.82 Tflops, this was told at the NYC release event. The chips are manufactured at that clock rate, why woul Sony overclock chips down the line using software when they wouldn't know what the full ramifications that this would cause in the end. Which is why Sony focused on presenting how the GPU can do CPU like funtions if need be as well(very similar to what Nintendo was saying about WiiU's design.) The PS4's design on a performance standpoint is set in stone and people thinking that a button will be pushed down the road to produce another Tflop of power are just wishful thinkers.
you do know that they dont just release firmware before testing them right? He never that they would. I was just asking if it was a possibility. You havent seen the final form factor of the ps4. You dont know venting loctations, cooling fans, or cabinet size. So determining the Apu overheating based on just the word " overclock" is a bit premature, dont you think?
Don't expect any overclocks from sony.
Now people are gonna whine again. Ps3: IT HAS NO GAMES!!!!!! PS4: IT HAS MANY GAMES!!!!!!!!! /S
So it seems that PS4 is a GPGPU with the theoretical power of 1.9 Tflops and the capability to operate 64 "virtual SPUs" simultaneously. This means that when maxed out will perform almost 2 times its theoritical power or 3.5 to 3.8 Tflops. If thats true it will completly destroy -in graphX and physX- even the almighty GeForce 680 GTX.
Did you even read what you just wrote? This is the kind of blind faith mentality that just looks ridiculous in the face of logical thinkers... So now the PS4 has magically jumped from 1.8 to 3.5-3.9 Tflops of processing power! I'm guessing that you are one of the few that believed Sony when they said that PS3 had a theoretical throughput of 2Tflops when that system was announced. Point of the matter comes down to real world achievements in games. Theoretical is all good on paper, but a real world scenario looks different if the system is said by Sony to be so powerful but yet can't maintain a 1080p status on all games created for it... In the end people are going to believe what they want to believe and in then end there's reality waiting there for you.
The CELL CPU had 8 SPUs, it always said 7 SPUs, and 1 disabled due to yield.
That means, they could never "unlock" what could be "broken" thus it remaining 7 SPUs.
In the PS4, they have downclocked a 7970 down to 800mhz. Even the mobile laptop model is at 850MHZ.
Read the new interview with Cerny, he said down a few years their releasing brand new APIs that will knock out anything we will see in years prior to the PS4s life.
Mark my words, it isnt an "overclock" but to take it back to its real MHZ of 1GHZ.
Sony EVEN did it with the PSP, that released with a CPU clockspeed of 200MHZ +- , after a few years and a firmware update, they upclocked it to 333MHZ.
they have done this before.
All a man wants to know is can this system handle 1080p at 60fps with some decent effects? Yes a man knows there are many variables other than that but a game like Skyrim or BF3?
The PSP was never up clocked... they released a stronger SKU but the older models were unaffected. That's why some games like GOW had an optional setting to take advantage of the stronger model PSP. Clock speeds aren't affected by firmware updates and I don't see why they would need to be. If it's capable of reaching those clockspeeds and remaining in it's TDP then it would be released at those clockspeeds. No firmware needed. If what your saying is correct then older PS3's could be up clocked to match the performance of the slim model PS3's but that's not the case.
New psp's had more ram, they all got the clockspeed increase even oldmodels
eh... don't play handhelds. Looked it up... it was unlocked not overclocked. They had it throttled for better battery life. Completely different things.
A man may be mistaken, but he remembers many saying that GPUs for consoles can do twice as much as they would in a PC.
Replicating cell sounds interesting. http://images.wikia.com/dra...
Square-Enix: Prease Be Excited Foh E3 This Year!! Sankyu!!
interesting Mark Cerny interview with the Japanese press about PS4 Cerney: In the next few years, we’ll also be supporting a different approach -We have our own shader APIs, but in the future, we’ll provide functions which will allow deeper access to the hardware level and it will be possible to directly control hardware using the shader APIs. As a mid-term target, in addition to common PC APIs such as OpenGL and DirectX, we’ll provide full access to our hardware. -This will also lead to the main difference with the PS3 era. The main difference is, we will have many titles for launch. Because game development is easier, there shouldn’t be a barrier as there had been previously. PS3 had the image that it was difficult to develop for. Even the PS2 wasn’t that easy. PS4 has a PC CPU and a GPU that’s been enhanced from a PC so the game lineup should become very rich. -Realizing Energy Efficiency and Smoothness using a Second Custom Chip with Embedded CPU Cerny: The second custom chip is essentially the Southbridge. However, this also has an embedded CPU. This will always be powered, and even when the PS4 is powered off, it is monitoring all IO systems. The embedded CPU and Southbridge manages download processes and all HDD access. Of course, even with the power off. -Cerney: The PS4 has a dedicated encoder for video sharing and such. There are a few dedicated encoder and decoder functions which are available and use the APU minimally. This is also used for playback of compressed in-game audio in MP3 and audio chat. When the system is fully on, the x86 CPU core controls the video sharing system. However the Southbridge has features to assist with network traffic control. http://forums.sega.com/show...
Just make sure Syphon Filter is made for the ps4!!