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Submitted by nukeitall 606d ago | news

PS4 architect knew in 2007 that "clearly we had some issues with PS3"

PS4 lead architect Mark Cerny knew as far back as 2007 that "clearly we had some issues with PlayStation 3".

The system was complicated compared to PC and Xbox 360, and the result was PS3 often coming off worse during multi-platform game development. (Dev, Industry, PS3, PS4, Sony Computer Entertainment, Xbox 360)

DragonKnight   606d ago | Off topic | show | Replies(3)
lovegames718  +   606d ago
End result overall the best looking exclusives with great gameplay. That cell churned out some beautiful games with the help of the best devs. this gen such as ND, SM and GG.
DiRtY  +   606d ago
End result was a 5 billion USD loss - just with the PS3.

No cell, but a powerful and more common CPU would have saved millions of USD R&D and production costs.
GrandTheftZamboni  +   606d ago
Millions in savings is nothing if you have billions in loss.

BTW, Cell R&D cost ~$500 million.
Saigon  +   606d ago
@Dirty,

That loss has nothing to do with Sony's gaming division. If the gaming division lost that amount of money, the PS4 wouldn't exist. Sony's gaming division is making a profit. Plus gather your facts together to know why Sony lost 5 billion as a whole company. You will be surprised at what you find.

I see that most people are not educated to what to look for when scoping a company. It amazes me that when MS talks profit, everyone looks in awe and no one digs into the overall numbers. Most if not all of MS profits come from where, Windows, the number one used operating system in the world. MS just recently, meaning the last few years, turned profit with the Xbox division, Congrats.

Sony as a company not only make the PlayStation console they also make TVs, Computers, Various personal electronics, Servers, etc, but did you also know they own and have ties to banks. Yes, Sony is also a holding company and a fiance Company as well. Most of their losses come from these division, which is expected with most banks, as well as their electronics department. Sony electronics are not selling like they use to in the past, Samsung anyone. At one point Sony even tried to leverage or hide these losses by combining the PlayStation division and the Electronics division and it didn't work.

My point is that people need to understand everything before they they go running at the mouth. Its not always as clear as one would think.
DiRtY  +   606d ago
@Saigon

I am sorry, but you are wrong with every single point you make. I know a rational argument is pretty much wasted on N4G, but I will give it a shot anyway:

"That loss has nothing to do with Sony's gaming division."

Well the gaming division lost almost 5 billion back in 2011 and that only covers the losses after the PS3 launched. So R&D is not even included.

Read it here:

http://www.vg247.com/2009/1...

And that was before the Vita released. The PS2 and PSP were profitable back then, so the actual losses for the PS3 are even higher than 4.7 billion USD (4.7 billion + R&D + PSP profits + PS2 profits).

Mid 2008 the losses from the PS3 already surpassed all the profits the PS2 ever made.

Read it here:
http://www.joystiq.com/2008...

"Sony's gaming division is making a profit."

That is one of the urban myths on N4G. It is wrong though. It makes a tiny profit in one Quarter (Q4 holiday season), but it loses money for the other 3 Quarters.

Read it here: http://www.gameinformer.com...

"Most if not all of MS profits come from where, Windows, the number one used operating system in the world."

That is another myth on N4G and it is wrong as well. Sure Windows is a highly profitable business, but MS is MUCH more than that.

Microsoft posted a revenue of 21.456 Billion USD for the 3 months ended December 31st. 5.8 billion USD are from Windows, 5.1 billion are from Server and Tools (MS SQL, Sharepoint, Exchange Server etc.), 5.6 billion are from the business division (MS Office), 3.7 billion are from the EDD (Xbox) and 900 Million from the Online division (Bing).

And that was during the Quarter when Windows 8 released. So MS has 2 other divisions as big as the Windows division when it comes to revenue.

You can read it here: http://www.microsoft.com/in...

"Yes, Sony is also a holding company and a fiance Company as well. Most of their losses come from these division, which is expected with most banks"

This one can't be more wrong. Sonys most profitable division right now is the financial service division. The operating income for the financial services were 131.4 billion Yen for the past year. That is MORE than all other profitable divisions combined. Sony does a very good job selling life insurances!

you can read it here:
http://www.sony.net/SonyInf...

"My point is that people need to understand everything before they they go running at the mouth. Its not always as clear as one would think."

That is the only point I agree with you 100%. You should really do this.

*** I know I will get disagrees like hell for that, but it is still correct. I am into investment for 10 years now and I know how to read financial reports. All sources are without any spin and mostly straight from the respective companies. ***
SilentNegotiator  +   606d ago
You're both right. It was nice seeing what dedicated developers could do with the cell, but it wasn't the right way to go. The new Playstation will be all about developers.
Saigon  +   606d ago
@Dirty,

Damn Dirty, I think you really out did yourself. Posting content from 2008 is real pleasant especially since the content from MS is most recent 2013. This again, proves my point from my initial post.

Again, looking at the data you would see that Sony combined several divisions into one which accounted for most of the losses calculated in your 5 billion. Such as the Vaio division being applied and at another point the TV division was applied. I can't find, Sony's official reports, but when I do I will calculate their total losses but from what I found on the internet i was able to calculate 3.5 billion in losses for the PS brand up to 2008, since the launch of the PS3.

Now if you read the reports the losses indicated are internal not external. Most likely that has to do with R&D, Game budget, impact of new systems, etc. Your conclusion is that you based the losses on the cell be, which has no impact to why they are loosing money in this division. And the other part that you should have pointed out in your initial comment was that the losses were over time not at once.
GrandTheftZamboni  +   605d ago
@DiRtY

If you already don't work for Microsoft's marketing agency, you definitely should.
RememberThe357  +   605d ago
@Dirty: Sony's game division has been profitable for a while (off and on), even if only by small margins.

Check it out yourself: http://www.sony.net/SonyInf...

And for a while Sony wasn't even reporting how the games division was doing because they just wrapped it into Products & Services.
HarryMasonHerpderp  +   606d ago
The PS3's architect was its greatest strength and its greatest weakness. It was a catch 22 situation. On one hand it produced some of the best looking console games this gen, on the other hand some of the multiplats suffered due to inexperienced developers (or just plain lazyness). It seems the PS4 will be tackling this problem head on and will be all the more better for it.
#3 (Edited 606d ago ) | Agree(30) | Disagree(15) | Report | Reply
kwyjibo  +   606d ago
I wouldn't describe it as laziness, you hear that from N4G all the time.

If the PS3 had picked up the same kind of market share the PS2 did, it'd be a different story. Sony did not deliver enough to justify the investment from developers.
ziggurcat  +   606d ago
no, it really is laziness.
Bordel_1900  +   606d ago
I don't think it's lazy or inexperienced developers like you say, it's more a matter of why should a multiplat-developer put more money as in time and resources into developing PS3 games than they would do on the X360 version. It's not more complicated than that, yes, developers were inexperience on the complex somewhat self-defeating architecture of the PS3.

Even today some multiplats struggle to match the X360 version, I believe that if you put down enough time resources effort and money, you can create games on the PS3 that surpass X360 games, but at what cost, most developers will not invest this kind of money into a PS3 game.

PS4 is like a gaming PC with a gaming-OS, so it should be a lot easier to develop for.
#3.2 (Edited 606d ago ) | Agree(8) | Disagree(0) | Report | Reply
GrandTheftZamboni  +   606d ago
A good carpenter can make a masterpiece with basic carpentry tools. A guy who doesn't know what he's doing can have all the modern tools and still make mediocre piece.
joeorc  +   606d ago
@Bordel_1900
"It's not more complicated than that, yes, developers were inexperience on the complex somewhat self-defeating architecture of the PS3. "

the PS3 system was a sound system design, its the tool's for the APi's was A) not as mature, and B) the Experience with such hardware took time, alot more than 3rd party developer's could really spare.

The problem was none of the 3rd party Game engines were designed for the PS3 Hardware, because A) they never had MATURE TOOL CHAINS MADE FOR THE ps3'S SYSTEM DESIGN TO WORK WITH!

"self-defeating architecture of the PS3"

Please Explain how the PS3's system design was Quote "SELF-DEFEATING" ?

YOU STATE THIS:

"I believe that if you put down enough time resources effort and money, you can create games on the PS3 that surpass X360 games, but at what cost, most developers will not invest this kind of money into a PS3 game. "

which goes back to the point, its not the Hardware it's the development resources, and the Game Engines that the 3RD party invested into!

You can always learn the hardware, so that's not the problem.

This stigma about the PS3 design being bad for game's is more like

"Bad for 3RD PARTY GAME ENGINES THAT WE ALREADY INVESTED INTO WITH OUR RESOURCES, THAT ARE MADE FOR ANOTHER SYSTEM DESIGN Entirely!"

the PS3's design was and is still good for game design. as long as your willing to learn and spend resources to build for such a platform.

which is the same for Every platform anyway.
Bordel_1900  +   606d ago
@joeorc

As I said "somewhat self-defeating", I'm not saying the system design was not sound. I mean that because of it's complexity and the lack of experience on this kind of architecture it held back the PS3 in some ways. It could/should have been one of it's strengths but turned out to be something that held it back instead. This seems to have been addressed with the PS4, where developers should feel at home much faster. Then they can focus time and resources on creating good content rather than struggling with the architecture.
#3.2.3 (Edited 606d ago ) | Agree(0) | Disagree(0) | Report
HarryMasonHerpderp  +   606d ago
@kwyjibo
@Bordel_1900

Yeah I get what you both mean and some of it was due to money and I agree with that but I honestly think some of it was due to inexperience and lazyness.
I stress that I don't mean ALL developers because most of them did a pretty good job at the multiplats but some of them you can tell they just didn't put any effort in and I don't understand why some developers said they didn't have a problem and some of them had a very hard time.
Whatever the reasons I think Sony realised the problems and seem to be stamping them out with the PS4.
#3.3 (Edited 606d ago ) | Agree(4) | Disagree(5) | Report | Reply
OrionNoctis  +   606d ago
It wasnt a system that took 3rd party developers into account , it wasnt bad but it wasnt wise either , now with developers happy Sony will deliver the same high quality exclusives and the 3rd parties wont have to put a extra effort and money to develop for the ps4, they made it right and since Sony systems tend to be my 1st option the future looks bright!
Bordel_1900  +   606d ago
The PS3 was an optimistic experiment. Luckily it didn't sink Sony. Sony had som good victories with it and the PS3 turned out ok. They've learnt their lesson.
FanboySeeker  +   606d ago
It didn't sink Sony... but made them lose market share and visibility....
Specially when we look to the legacy and dominance of the past...
Bordel_1900  +   606d ago
True, but they had an important victory with Blu-ray, and they still did good with the PS3 and are in a seemingly good position with how the the PS4 is shaping up.
#5.1.1 (Edited 606d ago ) | Agree(13) | Disagree(3) | Report
AngelicIceDiamond  +   606d ago
"They learn't their lesson"

I'm not bashing you personally for the statement at all. But I love the generalization of the statement like how this only applies to Sony. When Xbox messes up its troll galore. Only Sony gets a free pass I guess. Again, not bashing you, but just how others use that statement like it only applies to Sony.

Sony may very well learned there lesson and signs have been shown that they really have. But have some thought that maybe MS has learn some lesson's next gen as well?

I mean realistically.
#5.2 (Edited 606d ago ) | Agree(2) | Disagree(12) | Report | Reply
GrandTheftZamboni  +   606d ago
"Sony gets a free pass"

Dude, are you for real?
FanboySeeker  +   606d ago
An article the expresses the opinion of someone which is only the head master of the conception and development behind the PS4!
And cleary states the problem behind the CELL and the opinion of some deluded fanboys...

"on the other hand some of the multiplats suffered due to inexperienced developers (or just plain lazyness)"

Even with the straight facts and evidence in this article, they continue in the stage of denial...
Ps3 was hard to develop for.. Sony and the PS4 architect recognize this FACT... but but the it's the developers that were Lazy....

Bullshit! Beside the first party studios that develop only with one plataform in mind ( not having to deal with the development costs on different plataforms), the 3rd party struggled with this fact...
And it showed on the multi-plataform games...
But in the sony fanboys mind... it was lazyness...
Yeah! Right....
Keep up the good fight...
#6 (Edited 606d ago ) | Agree(11) | Disagree(13) | Report | Reply
BlackTar187  +   606d ago
I don't think anyone said anything especially in your Highlighted part that it wasn't hard to develop for. Unless im wrong pretty sure lazy could still be used as proper justification in this case.

I'm not calling people lazy but at least be correct in your statement.

"inexperienced developers " This is a fact inexperienced to the cell NEXT or just plain laziness still 100% possible and in some cases it is. I don't think you understand what you're saying.

Regardless if i believe it or not nothing you said or showed or this article actually says these arn't true.

if something is hard and some people get it and some people don't it is a fair and reasonable thought to say maybe 1 dev is trying harder then the next. but whatever
DragonKnight  +   606d ago
Bethesda, who can't get anything right anywhere, says hi.
Kenshin_BATT0USAI  +   606d ago
I think everyone knew it was an issue.
#7 (Edited 606d ago ) | Agree(6) | Disagree(0) | Report | Reply
Ju  +   606d ago
That's so funny. And then they go out an choose an APU. ;)

Really depends on the generation of the APU AMD put into this thing to understand what can actually done with it (Lano/Trinity/Kaveri differ strongly in how they integrate GPU and CPU addressing, e.g. cache coherency etc.).

But why that's funny is, that no PCs exist today which fully utilize the programming model in a way these chips will allow you to do. In that sense, it will yet again require some tinkering how to max out these machines down the line.

And before someone marks me a fanboy here, I just got me a A10-5800K, just to play around with - even if the GPU in it will not be fast enough for high end gaming, you can play with Bolt and OpenCL a bit, can do animation blending with compute, physics, etc. and still plug in a dedicated GPU (supports Quad crossfire) do do the rest of the heavy lifting. It's just not a "CPU" alone any more.

If you understand cell, it is far easier to understand what that thing is, because you can consider this combo a "super-cell" IMO. Well, you won't be able to plug in another GPU into the PS4, but then, its GPU is quite faster than the stock APUs.
yewles1  +   606d ago
What gets me still is the big stink made about Cell moreso than there was about the PS2 as a whole. At least PS3 stepped up with C++ support and better tools in the long run, PS2 had literally less than nothing in its entire duration and caused rival third parties to come together to make tools and custom API's in order to get ANY games to be made at all.
Ju  +   606d ago
Hey, btw, I just had boost ported to the PS3 the other week (not all, but some). Run share_ptr<> and crap; and re-compiles between all platforms. Yeah, that's how far we are now;) Quite nice.
yewles1  +   606d ago
Niiiiiiiiiiice!
chukamachine  +   606d ago
PS3 suffered because it was attacked from both angles.

360 had already been out a year - Increasing userbase and some hardcore titles already out.

PS3 was a year +late, Dev's struggled with it early on.

Wii came from nowhere with a control scheme that the media adopted and pushed to the public, mums/grandparents bought it just like the DS. Where are the mums to save the Wii u.

PS4 will be fine.
Lvl_up_gamer  +   606d ago
Of course Sony knew back in 2007. You don't think their own devs would have advised Sony of the complications of developing on?

Obviously Sony knew since they ditched the CELL and the PS3 architecture with the PS4.

You would have to be a complete moronic idiot if you don't think Sony knows their own product and what their own devs would have told them.
mrmancs  +   606d ago
check crydev.com for teaser image of the fox engine on screen , soon to be shown and streamed. Ps4 graphics will shit on all :)
SpinalRemains138  +   606d ago
This is great news for Sony lovers.

The worse the PS3 architecture was, the better the PS4 will be.

The PS3 was a developers nightmare and it still pumped out the best exclusives and sold more consoles than it's main rival, when it appeared late to the party even.

The PS4 is going to be so beast. We all know it. Learning from their mistakes Sony is.
KwietStorm  +   606d ago
Some of these comments.. Just completely embarrassing. And PS4 will be out soon, but amazingly, people are still hanging on the lazy nonsense. Absolutely no idea of what goes into software development. None. Disrespectful is not even the word.
Hicken  +   605d ago
Not EVERY dev was lazy, but quite a few of them WERE. Bethesda immediately springs to mind. Sometimes, it was the publisher's fault, as with Bayonetta.
WayneKerr   606d ago | Trolling | show
gweggegw   606d ago | Spam
DwightOwen  +   606d ago
"The Witcher 3 developer CD Projekt Red also highlighted another welcome effect of PlayStation 4's PC-like architecture: being able to make one change during development that will affect all versions of a game, rather than bespoke changes for each. "This time around the situation is much easier for developers," said Adam Badowski, head of CDPR. And "much easier" means much quicker which means saving time which means saving money. Less faff, more creativity, better results."

Good. Maybe now it'll only take two years instead of five to make a AAA title.
DivineAssault  +   605d ago
Everyone loves the PS4.. Except PC elitists & hating fanboys.. Its a very good machine.. much better than good imo.. I know its not the most powerful machine on earth but its strong enough to do what it needs to do.. Having beautiful looking/running games will not be an issue on PS anymore.. With that amount of memory, im sure PS4 apps & games will run slick as a hot knife through butter
#17 (Edited 605d ago ) | Agree(3) | Disagree(2) | Report | Reply
EffectO  +   605d ago
Poor Cell fans.
pete007  +   605d ago
Cell was ok, the problem is that they didnt finish the r&d in Time To PS3 release.
That super processor only recently showed its strenghts.
Cell 2.0 allows for the first Time spu free ram access otherwise PPc core botllenecks everything despite rambus hyperfast xdr,
Malice-Flare  +   605d ago
the minute i saw the architecture of the Cell back then, i thought, "Sony better use this in other products, otherwise devs would not bother learning and optimising for it"...

there was nothing inherently wrong with Cell technology as it was scalar, but Sony didn't follow through on their promises on using the tech in other things: Cell in their TV, Cell in their computers and the networked parallel processing (distributed computing)...

they could have subsidized the PS3 price then by applying Cell in their medical, imaging and scientific computing areas, but i guess even Sony (stupidly) doubted Kutaragi's vision...
Picnic  +   605d ago
But it's OK because people. to some extent, buy the PS3 for some of the exclusives.

Sony consoles have never had the best graphics at the time for multi-format games, except for maybe a tiny period just before the N64 was released.

It tends to seem that the PS3 can look beautiful in relatively still, slow, shots but where lots of action is concerned the Xbox360 seems to feel better whilst the PS3 screen tears. Which is most games that people play apart from some indie ones.

But when you see slower, 'artsy' games like the likes of Heavy Rain and The Unfinished Swan you know that the PS3's cell was absolutely perfect for them. They're timelessly good looking graphics.
#21 (Edited 605d ago ) | Agree(0) | Disagree(1) | Report | Reply

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