"Paul Butler says David Cage's statements about needing power to create emotion are false and that he is disrespectful to prior and current developers, as well as cinema."
I think Cage is as delusional and full of himself as the next gamer, but then everyone including him have become obsessive about system power. Devs with mindsets like Crytek are as bad if not worse then him because they've likely hurt the industry by their over-focus on graphics.
I do kinda miss those days where mainstream games were creative and innovative. Technology is nice, but it goes as far as creating hottest old man in video game history without real creativity. 'Cause for the sake of photorealism games are pretending more and more to be something they have never been, instead of being its own thing.
It's funny how you people says graphics isn't importent. From what i remember graphics was the first thing that we look forward in each generation. If graphics doesn't evolve in the game then it's just another game with just good gameplay and the other way around. I don't like to play minecraft because it looks ugly. I don't like playing Final fantasy because the gameplay sucks. You guys can't make graphics isn't importent. Mag shows that current generation can make what ever they want in gameplay if graphics sacrificed but it's not a game that makes me really excited and special. We need both for next generation. I'm glad sony don't look at n4g. People here don't know what's good for them -.-
Graphics *ARE* important. the thing is this gen they've become the central focus. But instead of some older IPs striving for a balance we've seen too many remove features. See FF13 and towns for an example.
Paul Butler, an untalented hack is disrespectful to David Cage. Paul Butler, an individual who cannot fathom the creativity required to not only succeed in game development but to also produce land mark titles is disrespectful to the profession of game development itself. Paul Butler, a person with no real talent of his own is disrespectful to readers with this cheap hitmongering article. Seriously, what has Paul Butler ever accomplished that gives him the slightest insight into game development? What are Paul Butler's qualifications? None, none, and nothing. Another two bit nobody writing from his parent's basement, socially frustrated and oblivious to what it means to be talented. Just go away already. Enough of these self appointed experts who can't so much as use an etch a sketch, let alone succeed as a developer. All they manage to do is to sit around and run their fat traps, mouths which show no indication whatsoever of being hooked to a brain housing group.
"I do kinda miss those days where mainstream games were creative and innovative. " Blame consoles for the most part.
Better graphics seem to be innovative enough for gamers these days... I can't help but feel I've been playing souped up PS2 games for the best part of this console generation.
i disagree! now i didn't read the piece, it seems lame from the topic.. i know you can make emotional games with bad graphics, but cage want his game to be perfect in both look "graphics" and story, he want his game to be very realistic, i don't know what's the problem in that. if you want something "Delusional and Disrespectful".. here: http://n4g.com/news/908851/... the ND guy on the right bashed survival/zombie games, after that he said "just like we owned action adventure with uncharted we're gonna own survival action with TLoU" also this http://www.eurogamer.net/ar... ...now i dare the author to write about this
Trying to turn an article about David Cage into a ND bashing session? smh You need help kid.
It's okay Mystic, j-blaze has a childish outlook on the industry, and reeks of double standards. If you dig into his comment history, you'll find that he criticised The Last of Us gameplay for being "slow and boring",yet you can easily describe Heavy Rain as the same thing. Yet he claimed to love that game. His arguments are neither here nor there and will make up invalid criticisms to try and convince that Naughty Dog make bad games or that their "arrogance" is somehow noteworthy. He's so desperate for people to take notice of his delusions, that he will bring them up however he can. Good luck downplaying The Last of Us, kid, cause it's gonna take a ton of it to satisfy your delusions. The industry and GAMERS will give it due props.
I cried like a baby at the end of TellTale's Walking Dead - and that game, by no means was technologically advanced.
Many are failing to see what Cage is trying to accomplish. The tech demo of the old man wasn't about how real he can look. It emphasize on how well the characters can express emotion through their facial expression. I agree with him but I also see why a lot of people hate him. He should just let others do what they want without criticizing it.
Yep. Animation is exaggeration. If you look at any animated product, emotion (and movement) is always exaggerated to get the point across of what is going on within the scene. The more realistic something becomes, the less exaggeration is needed because it comes closer to what we expect based on our ability to pick up on visual clues. In the old guy's tech demo, the changes in expression were so subtle that it mimicked real life. None of that really has nothing to do with game play, but from a story telling and graphics perspective it's pretty cool. Cage's games were never really about awesome game play anyways...it's just not his focus. It makes his games unique, as well as often criticized.
Well, every dev has there own definition of what's next gen. So I respect him for that. Listen, that model that David rendered on screen wasn't all that impressive. I get it its a render, a simple model. But haven't we seen that already? I just wasn't impressed or maybe it was the combination of his obsession with power and graphics and super realism. The render was cool but, just, familiar. David thinks there's some visible layer in the gaming industry that he believes games can "grow up" or "mature." That could mean allot of things, maybe he wants games to look, play or story driven like his? I dunno but every single dev has a goal with next gen, what they wanna accomplish what's considered next gen to them. And that's where he gets selfish because it sounds like he wants games to be like his. There's a reason why Cod sales the way it does and people flock to it every year. I respect David but his views on gaming are off and somewhat selfish.
Except there are a lot - too many - like Cage, guys at Crytek and even Epic with or with out Cliffy B who are saying what it is as if its an absolute.
The model itself was far from simple. It was a pretty complex model in fact. Stuff like that hasn't been done on consoles, and honestly you probably won't see that level of detail in a game anyways...particularly in a game play scenario. I was impressed with the technical side of it, and if it was running in real time on PS4 spec hardware, that does bode well for better graphics next gen all around. Not as big a leap like prior gens, but a leap none the less. I think a lot of his "the industry needs to grow up" stuff gets taken way out of context. He's not really saying that the industry itself is childish, or that game players are childish, just that as a whole, the medium itself can be used to do so much more if developers take the time to cultivate it. Cage's games are unique. I've never been impressed with the game play side of them, because quite frankly it's rather shallow. But the stories are pretty good, albeit cliched, and more importantly he does push the envelope when it comes to graphics and emotion representation. It's why I flock to them, because I like seeing people that do things differently, even if it's outside the norm, because it opens up possibilities that others may not try to explore.
David Cage does not have an obsession with power he has an obsession with emotion and story telling which is a very good thing.
Wasn't Cage just talking about conveying emotion with subtle changes of expression? In that case, he's absolutely right.
Well that's his choice; if he believe's power is the way froward, then so be it. Every developer has their own sight and reason into how a game should be created, but that doesn't mean they should be knocked over it. Yes, his mindset can be slightly irrational but in no way shape or form is he power hungry like 'Crytek', they are so far up their own backsides and with every article they post believing they're the 'Be all & End all' I can't help but laugh. David Cage has ambition and and a voice (So what?) at least he try's new things whereas 'Crytek' cancel one project after another and sitting in their glorified castle believing First Person Shooters are god's gift to gaming. On a side note, nice avatar :)
He pissed a lot of people off with his emotion speech and rightfully so. For example Journey is one of the most emotional games I have ever played and you can't even see the protagonist's facial expressions. Silent Hill 2 is also a very emotional game in a lot of different ways. There are and have been tons of emotional games since the very early days with 16bit graphics.
but the emotions were relayed through story & happenings in game not by facial expressions alone which is what David Cage was talking about. You can look and the face in the tech demo and now how he/she is feeling just by the different expressions in the face without any story being told or event to get the feeling across to the gamer. just my though on the matter.
That is what I thought as well.
But the point is that he's talking about a VERY specific criteria. Sure, if you're looking to make an ultra-realistic, some would say "cinematic," experience and want a character to express detailed facial emotion when the camera is zoomed in ridiculously close, then sure, you could probably benefit from the added horsepower. But that doesn't change the fact that developers have been conveying emotion through their characters in other ways for many, many years. Don't get me wrong, I loved Fahrenheit and Heavy Rain, but Cage sometimes acts as if the video game industry was nothing but a shallow, pulpy mush before he graced it with his contributions. He also sometimes forgets, in his pursuit of a more "cinematic" experience, the level of emotion games uniquely convey from their interactivity alone. What he is doing is just ONE SPECIFIC WAY of achieving what he is aiming for, but he doesn't seem to understand that.
@roper316 Yes that's probably what he was talking about. The way he said it though was as if no games had any emotional impact before the old man tech demo lol. He comes across really ignorant. I'm sure he has good intentions and I love his games. He just needs to think about what he's actually saying sometimes.
I absolutely love flower. The soundtrack meshed so well with the gameplay. Definitely an emotion driven game.
I don't care who is delusional or disrespecting who. All I care about is getting my hands on Beyond: Two Souls.
Some common sense is always refreshing
And their PS4 project too,if he can make games on the PS3 as eye candy as Beyond : two souls,imagine what he can achieve with the PS4 specs !
was he saying that to create emotion in general or for characters to relate emotions with facial expressions?
He was saying that new shiny graphics make it so that you can now, because of the PS4's power, properly convey emotions through visuals and facial animations. It's doubly hilarious as he's going "look at the emotion in the old man's eyes!" while the facial animations in his realistic looking old man are creepy as all hell compared with the stylized art and facial animations of The Walking Dead, a game that's low enough on resources that you can play it on an iPhone.
You got that completely wrong. The POINT was that it didn't need the stylized art and exaggerated facial expressions of a game like The Walking Dead. Games right now NEED those exaggerations because it's hard to pick up on the subtleties we'd notice on a human's face: games just aren't capable of expressing those nuances yet. Cage's demo was showing that the PS4, at least, has the potential to do just that. If it's "creepy" to you, you might wanna look up the "uncanny valley" to understand why. Yes, you can display emotions in games now, but not with the level of subtlety he showed off. And it wasn't "shiny new graphics," but the power to produce those graphics that counts.
Eh I think people are blowing this up a bit. I didn't agree with everything he said but I didn't feel he was offending anything.
The connection between character and player has little to do with realism. Atmosphere,Music, Story, and how relatable the character is are the elements that create emotion in a game, not the graphics.
Actually it does and you contradict yourself having a character you can relate is a one to one connection between character and player... Being able to connect with the character is being able to relate to them which is only enhanced if the characters appearance and settings sell the immersion aka look better or depending on the art style being more realistic.... So yeah if you are going to capture a more realistic setting then having characters look more life like would keep the immersion which would make the emotional connection less jarring.
quite nicely. I think only when we experience all these great things, do we really become immersed in the game. It can be any form of media. This is why Flower, Journey, and even Heavy Rain capture a wider audience than just your average gamer. I think David was only referring being able to give a character a more convincing performance. "Eyes are the windows to the soul". Being able to read a person just by the look they have in their eyes is what he's talking. If done correctly, it could make for some excellent set pieces in games. Forcing the player to make a decision based on instinct and not dialog like an actual detective. We saw glimpses of it in Heavy Rain.
This article is a rant over something that I'm sure only happened in the bloggers head. Like David Cage said the new tech helps convey the subtle emotion "you can see the eyes of the actors when they are lying or when they are about to cry" small muscle movements that have not been possible until now. He's happy with the new tech as you to look at a character and know what they’re feeling without the aid of music or story. Not once did he say that you haven’t been able to covey emotion until now in games or cinema nor did he put down any game or anyone’s efforts at portraying emotion in gaming. The rise of new technology has just made it easier to convey and read subtle emotions which are so important to games in QD’s genre. Here's the vid from the PS4 conference. http://www.youtube.com/watc...
I think he's done a lot of good things with his games, but I also think he's pretty full of himself. The way he talks about the industry and video games as a medium he sounds like he has contempt for those that aren't doing revolutionary things with their games. And he is way too focused on graphics, always counting polygons
Just his opinion. Thats all I see it being.
Big respect to this dude for creating some of my favorite games but almost all Japanese games have emotions(MGS,silent hill,Souls series,persona,FF....)but does he mean it graphically with face emotions and behavior or what?
I love how everyone seems to have summed up his presentation as graphics=emotions, which is not what he's saying at all. He's saying the advanced technology will only aid in conveying emotions. Not that games like Journey, TWD, and Limbo can't do it because their graphics aren't good enough. If that were the case, Cage would praise Crytek for Crysis 3. It's funny how these Cage haters were no where to be found when LA Noire came out. For example, Jim Sterling recently did a ridiculous parody of Cage on his equally ridiculous time waster on Escapist. He blasts Cage's demonstration but praised Team Bondi for doing, basically the same thing. He even says the game would be unplayable without it's facial tech but somehow, what Cage said is criminal.
Bubble for you ^^.
how many sony doom articles are going to pop up today, i wonder... i'm taking bets, everyone!
Someone needs to explain to him that gameplay is just as important.
He didn't say gameplay isn't important. It's you people who assumed that. His talk doesn't necessary be about realistic graphics. He also talk about the story. Developers need to evolve and make the story more emotional and more interesting. Most of the games have shallow story so most of them are all about the gameplay. That's why he said gaming must grow up. He didn't say make the graphics better then gameplay.
"Emotion is something challenging and complex to capture. It's conveyed by Graphics, Animation, Sound, Cinematography, Dialogue, AND OF COURSE GAMEPLAY." -David Cage, Feb 20, 2013
@Belking, Youtube videos never convey gameplay. Buy a PS3 and stop trolling.
I have a PS3. Had one since launch day. Just so you know, you don't have to own one to play the games. Stop with the defense dude. It's not that serious.
I'm a huge fan of Heavy Rain and it's gameplay. It is an evolved version of the old adventure games such as Day of the Tentacle, Full Throttle, Police Quest, Leisure Suit Larry, 7th Guest. Etc. If you did not grow up with these games then i guess it could be understood as to why some do not like the gameplay. But for me it is awesome to see the genre revived and improved upon.
***"I have a PS3. Had one since launch day."*** lol you still spouting lies?
I hope that David Cage and Quantic Dreams continue to make the sort of games he/they wanna make, and the kind of games his fans wants. Because they are pretty much the only ones making those kind of games, atleast with some sort of high budget. Then gamers who enjoy his games can continue enjoying his/their games, and idiots like Paul Butler can continue writing idiotic articles. :) It wouldn't hurt if he did watch the segment he were going to comment tough, and put it in perspective of what David Cage said they were going to do, rather than how he figured David Cage tought, based upon the article he had read about it. I'm a gamer wich watched the PS Meeting, and I had no problem figuring out what David Cage were showing us what he wanted to do. He get's more powerfull hardware, and this is a huge advantage when trying to convey even the subtle human emotions in facial expressions of his models. :) He didn't say that you couldn't convey emotions in games earlier. He said he were asked each generation what he wanted most, and he allways answered more emotions each generation.
I feel like everyone is making too big of a deal out of this. Yes, Cage can be an ass at times, but I didn't feel like he was stepping on every other developer's achievements while he was up on stage. He was only talking about better utilizing facial features to communicate emotion, right?
I don't really know why or how Cage pissed anyone off. Its all about perspective. David Cage for years now has talked about *his* view of relaying emotion in games. Its a very important aspect of his games for him. Obviously, there have been emotional games before, but you always know you're playing a game. Even in a completely cartoony setting like The Walking Dead *spoiler* when Clementine finds out Lee is bitten, and she has to leave him, it was emotional. David Cage, however, just has a different approach. The look and the tiny details go a long way to pulling people in and making it all believable. I think that's what his goal is. Some directors just have different ways of going about getting there.
I like this guy, he has a right to be full of himself although I don't think he is. The games he has made are just different and good. We need some game designers like him who can make some DIFFERENCES in their games, not just the same shooters again!! The fact he took risk with his games is respectable. Another designer or director I think has done some great works to the gaming industry is the one who make LA Noire, who has the gut to spend a huge budget on a AAA game in a genre which hasn't been proved? These two, they deserve respect even though they might be a little bit of an asshole, just a little bit is OK, :)
I don't know why people think it is disrespectful.He was showing how new tech could help portray levels of emotions.A more realistic portrayal of a face can help show that emotion.That is not all there is to it of course. You still have to do other things to make that emotion spring to life but it would help a lot if more advanced technology can show you that emotion better physically.It is all about helping with the immersion into the gaming world.i mean even Disney knew that the advanced techniques in their Fantasia movies helped set the emotional tone they were going for. Think about every small detail that help immerse us into the games.Kratos's blood soaked skin and bloody footprints, Drake's water soaked clothes,Cole's electric attacks arcing through puddles and metal. Having faces that show emotion better is just like all that stuff unlike the stiff lifeless faces games like Oblivion have.Power and graphics aren't everything and we don't need every blade of grass and leaf to look realistic but a more realistically portrayed facial features can only add to our experience.
"People ask me, what is the feature you want most of future hardware platforms. My answer...is always the same. Emotions. Emotion. Getting the player emotionally involved, is the holy grail of all game creators. We all try to trigger intense, subtle, and diverse emotions. We try to make players forget that this is just a program animating pixels on screen. We don't want them to just watch something. We want them to LIVE it and dispend their disbelief. Experiencing that magic moment when we live in a different reality. Emotion is something challenging and complex to capture. It's conveyed by Graphics, Animation, Sound, Cinematography, Dialogue, AND OF COURSE GAMEPLAY. In a medium like ours, technology is very important. It is what we rely on to get the player emotionally involved." That's just a small sampling of what he has to say. He goes on to talk about how film has progressed from being able to convey emotions in silent films with exaggerated movements to being able to hear the inflection in voice, and finally advancements in lighting and resolution. It's exactly what happened to gaming. He shows off the polygon counts of his previous work and states that with the PS4, expressing emotion will be easier. The only mistake he makes is when he says, "Now, with the PS4, we have reached that stage". So it sounds like he's comparing all previous works with that of the black and white era of film, to the current high tech techniques of film...and that's simply not the case. So instead of just hopping on the bandwagon of guys like Jim Sterling, why not dig a little deeper? It took me 10 minutes to listen and type his words and 4 minutes of it was rewatching the video. People need to use their own brains instead of regurgitating the rhetoric of piss poor journalists.
MSG4 came out in 2008. It has mid blowing graphics, awesome visual cut scenes and game play and one of the all time best emotional experiences ever in a video game.
yawnnn another movie like game i'll pass
advancements in tech to offer opportunities to advance storytelling. look back at FF6, chrono trigger, or other SNES RPGs. the introduction of character emotes really impacted how the story was conveyed. for example, characters jumping up and down, when excited, sulking when depressed, or even panting when tired. you can look back at old games and say how they didnt need modern graphics to tell a story, but they brought new innovations for their time to help convey emotions better than previous generations.
I just cant imagine Heavy Rain with out the facial expression... just can't. Haven't played Heavy Rain already? Strongly suggest you to visit YouTube and look for Kara (Kara Tech Demo). After watching the video just think abaut it with no facial mo-cap... Nope... I just can't. I agree to D. Cage vision of video games. With out new tech to support new tools for storytelling mechanics, we may get stuck with the same games over and over. Most gamers love to think about "evolution" when they think of video games. Wich is not bad... but some times a "revolution" is needed to trully move a genere forward.
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