Editor-in-Chief of Rev3Games is under fire for accusing God of War: ascension of misogyny.
"Surprisingly or not surprisingly, depending how much faith you have in the video games industry, a defensive mob or gamers, more concerned with facing any censorship or accountability for the medium they hold so dear, chose to go on a moronic campaign against the journalist and his completely valid critque." What campaign? Some more explanation and sources are needed.
"What campaign? Some more explanation and sources are needed" apparently a couple of forum post are now the equivalent of the "swift boat" brouhaha
But a couple of "journalists" crying about a trophy name....totally not a petty "mob" /s These goombas are still on the high of praising Tomb Raider as supposedly progressive because they traded her short-shorts in for constant heavy breathing.
Okay, they changed the crux of the article, so... WTF, no. 'Nuff said. OT (more so) Why is Sessler concerned with that when one of his own made an article titled "boats and hoes" when they talked about a woman being in Assassin's Creed? Is that not also Misogynistic? Also, where was his outrage when GTA Awarded players for killing Haitians? And if you support the banning of either, why then do you even care to call gaming "art" when developers consistently change it to assuage their fans?
so what, its a trophy and it makes you laugh. Its not as if he smashed the face in of a innocent woman, it was a harpy, and i believe she's going to try killing kratos. Some people have a bug up their ass and try to make sure that everyone else around them have the same bug. Misery loves company.
It's a shame when I really liked Adam when he was working at XPLAY. After he left and joined another company where he could have much more freedom he started to say the most ridiculous of things. I can't believe he is jumping on the "Feminist" bandwagon. I guess in God of War 3 when you brutally punch the flesh clean off of a boss, or rip another boss's head from his body and use it was completely okay. But have him do so to a woman, and have a witty trophy to go with it is completely OVER THE RINE. Props to Santa Monica, unless they end up publicly "apologizing" because of SONY worrying about bad press.
Who cares about "Bros before Ho's" as a trophy name. It isn't Misogyny, it's showing where your values lie. Who do you respect more, some dumb hoe, or your best friends? Exactly. Girls have the same expression, chicks before dicks. It's the same expression of values in reverse, and it isn't sexist. It doesn't hate based on gender, it is just an expression indicating what you value more, and quite frankly, it should be true for anyone with a decent moral compass.
@ pixel What he's arguing is Kratos and God of War have always been on a male power trip because it fits in with the mythology of the times in the game. It's always being realistic with issues with how they were treated at the time, a la Django Unchained. More or less anyways. Women weren't viewed as much during those days. But this trophy is different. This wasn't Kratos saying it, it was a 4th wall breaking moment were the developers were saying it. Kratos and other in game characters being sexist? It's fine honestly because they're in ancient greek times. But the developers being sexist? That's not fine because they're in the present day world. A character in Django Unchained being racist? That's ok because it's realistic. The actors in it being racist off camera? Not ok. See the difference? Characters in the game world (like from GoW, GTA, ect) have the artistic license to say whatever they want because it's make believe and if done well, it usually makes a point to us who watch/read/experience it. But a 4th wall breaking aside directly from the developers is something much different.
Just checked the article and it has been fixed! Approved!
So a pivotal point they based this "news"/opinion piece/crap on has been altered (after it was pointed out to be false). Now that's quality "journalism". Am I wrong to expect more of the "gaming press" than to bastardize (or invent/lie about) everything they touch in an attempt to garner traffic? Edit: I know, I know. It's me. I'm doing it wrong.
Djinn, we ruin everything in the industry. 'We' being the gamer community. The fact that this article was toned down is the industry equivalent to Dead Island becoming easier through a much asked for patch... By the same 'community' that later complaint that horror is gone. The softening and lack of freedom to creativity is just a reflex of our manifest desires spoken often through forums, but mostly through our wallets.
@ LostDjinn I never got all this "game journalism" hate, since anyone can be a game journalist. The only requirements are for a site to hire you for whatever reason, have an outlet with enough views to "matter" or simply start your own site. Additionally, some people need to think about some things rationally. Sites make money via Ad's, sponsors, influence... something, which is typically dependent on views. For newer sites they need views to BUILD these things, but ultimately everyone is looking for views. Now most sites won't turn down a stupid article or even a tired article, since they will get views. Thats why ____ console is dead talk almost always pays off. So if you want to see stronger articles from sites, simply ignore trashy articles and focus on quality news / researched work / editorials. I've read a few, plenty that were a little rough / had some weak points, but AT LEAST they were making an honest attempt at bringing good things to the table.
Whilst I didn't agree with ALL of Sessler's review, I did agree with him on that particular point. It WAS a pretty stupid thing to do and it DOES (in the context of the game) come over as misogynistic. Like Sesslers himself said, it was acceptable, 'just', but as soon as that Trophy pops up it devalues any meaningful internal conversations you may have had during that scene. I just wonder how many of those people who disagree with me or are upset that Sessler said this actually fully understand where he's coming from. It's an intellectual stance from an articulate and intelligent thinker. You may think it has no place in video games, but he's just giving this industry the respect it deserves by critiquing it as he would any other media. This is a fantasy and the head stomping made Sesslers wince but he considered the context and was ok with it. But then 'Bros Before Hos' popped up and destroyed any integrity the narrative gave that scene. Step back, take a breath and think. You still might no agree but at least you've taken the time to consider what he's talking about here.
I get what you're saying but the thing is if it was the other way around then no one would give a s*** I can't imagine a women playing this, getting that trophy and being offended by it though anyway. I could be wrong though.
Now that I can agree with. But that still doesn't make the interpretation of the scene wrong. What we should deal with is what we have at the time we have it, not relative to an assumed proposition. We just need to be aware of the hypocrisy and remind people of that ... if indeed it does appear at some point in the future but in reverse. @LightofDarkness: 'To further the context, imagine if you were playing GTA and brutally murdered a black character. You wouldn't have thought much of it generally (gangland crime being what it is) but then a trophy pops up and says "white power".' Absolutely PERFECT my friend. (bubble) Now people, step back, take a breath and think.
HarryMason: that's because mysandry is really not that big of a deal right now (and rarely has it been). Men don't generally have to put up with it even close to the extent that women have to deal with misogyny on a daily basis. To further the context, imagine if you were playing GTA and brutally murdered a black character. You wouldn't have thought much of it generally (gangland crime being what it is) but then a trophy pops up and says "white power". Would you not think that somehow completely invalidates the actions as justified by the narrative? It simply soils any artistic merit by linking it to a reprehensible ideology.
articulate, intelligent thinkers are not welcome on n4g.
I mean you get trophy for having sex with hookers in gta then you can shoot them in the face ...Also GOW things aren't really women it's a God damn creature.. Everyone gets so butthurt over everything now a days...
I wonder if you know what that phrase even means.
"To further the context, imagine if you were playing GTA and brutally murdered a black character. You wouldn't have thought much of it generally (gangland crime being what it is) but then a trophy pops up and says "white power" I see that being a lot worse than "bros before hoes" but maybe I shouldn't? I think one of the fury's is supposed to be seductive and is actually a "hoe" so I think that's why you get the trophy after finishing her off I don't think it's aimed at women in general. I think it's a misunderstanding to be honest I can't imagine there being any malice in it. I'm not saying that it's right though.
Hypocrisis at it's finest. The "thinkers" here do not have an issue with "just a regular" murder, but putting a label on it offends you. Go figure.
Everything is contextual. If it's not then it's gratuitous. It might seem pedantic to many people but to others it's the difference between ignorance and understanding. Surely striving for clarity must include examining ideas outside or even beyond your every day remits? Wisdom is understanding you can 'think' something but 'know' nothing.
" It's an intellectual stance from an articulate and intelligent thinker." "I just wonder how many of those people who disagree with me or are upset that Sessler said this actually fully understand where he's coming from." dat not so subtle "I agree with someone who I call intelligent which should also make me one... ON THE INTERNET!" And apparently logic and intelligence does not go together considering he literally listed a name of the trophy as a big con. Also I'll admit. I chuckled when I read that bs and pandering filled wall of text.
It's a tasteless, off color joke. Nothing more, Nothing less... BTW, tasteless, off color jokes are usually the best. Now lets say we were given a choice over how to handle a situation. I'll use a classic. You come to a door, what do you do? Your choices: knock, kick it in, check if it's locked then pick it/kick it in, walk away If you choose any variation of "kick it in" you get a pop up trophy titled "Neanderthal" Why? because you were too stupid to think of a better choice? Seems a little reverse here but would anyone care? No... I would actually chuckle and keep on playing. Why? Because I know my own intelligence and worth and I don't need a game or someone over the internet to validate that. To nit pick over someones sense of humor is trivial and actually makes you more shallow than the person telling the joke. Especially if you truly believe that "that" is the way that person really is... Sheesh! Get out of your parents basement and actually venture out into the world instead of feeding into this mindless BS of a joke you call "morals". It's all BS and it's bad for ya. Lighten up... My final point, NO ONE gives a S***!!!!!!!
Was it a woman or a demon hybrid with breasts? Doesnt anyone see the difference? Its like comparing a bad man who beats his wife to a guy who defends himself against some evil attrocity. There is nothing in real life to compare it to but lets say its a female school shooter and some guy gets ahold of her and beats the living hell out of her for being evil. Does that make him a mysoginist? Oh yeah, and its a video game about a guy whose family was murdered and goes on a bloddy rampage against mythical creatures. Maybe video games are having a serious affect on us because we r having a hard time distinguishing entertainment from reality. Lets focus our attention on real evil like the guy who murdered his wife while his 10 yr old daughter called 911.
You're missing the point of what Sessler is saying. It's about context. 'Bros before Hos' isn't something you regularly hear in Greek mythology now is it. That was his point. He accepted the scene in the context of the story but that trophy immediately changed that context and brought it into the 21st century. I'm still going to buy the game and I'm still going to enjoy it, but he IS right. They should never have called it that. The fact that we're actually discussing it proves that once and for all.
I wrote a blog about this very thing, and I'm sorry to say that, about this issue, no one knows what misogyny is. That word has been grossly misused and no one using it is actually thinking. "Bros before Hos" is not misogynistic. It is not a portrayal of a profound hatred or distrust of women. There are indications that the name of this trophy was chosen BY a woman, and regardless of that, the fact that people are incorrectly attributing hatred to this joke is just ridiculous. "'To further the context, imagine if you were playing GTA and brutally murdered a black character. You wouldn't have thought much of it generally (gangland crime being what it is) but then a trophy pops up and says "white power"." Yes, because a blatant racial slur as a trophy name is the same as a tongue in cheek joke using a term that's been around for ages with origins in gangster rap by the same people that would be upset by the white supremacist attitude that "white power" would imply. Your context is off. That's the problem with people, they use overexaggeration and poor descriptive language to equate a real and horrible tragedy with a political launching pad for people with low self-esteem or an agenda. The argument that the trophy name somehow ruins the experience by making what was a normal event in the game and trivializing it with a joke of a trophy name is nitpicking. You can't call it sexist because it's not discriminatory, you can't call it misogynistic because it's not hatred. USE THE TERMS CORRECTLY! Adam is wrong, plain and simple. To say that a trophy name can ruin the game is to admit you either A)Didn't care for the game right from the start and were looking for a reason to justify that, or B)Really need to look at yourself and your priorities if you can be offended by something so small in such a profound way that it ruins an entire game for you. Honest to God, I swear people are actively searching for reasons to be offended, especially if it has a feminist agenda attached to it.
@GribbleGrunger The fact that we are discussing it proves nothing of importance. What it does prove is some people really need to learn to take a joke. It did not break the "context" of the game. So what if it broke the forth wall in the 21st century. Newsflash: ALL TROPHIES BREAK THE FORTH WALL IN THE 21st CENTURY! Regardless of trophy title. The argument is pointless. When Psycho Mantis vibrated the controller and read other Konami game save files during Metal Gear Solid on Playstation, it broke the 4th wall. They received soo much hate for that because "it seemed out of context". Now, we look at that single moment as ingenious to adding another level of gameplay and pointing out the fact that we are just playing a game. @DragonKnight Do you do PR work? I could use someone like you. My methods are... How did my ex put it?... "Loud and abrasive" and "I tend to rub things the wrong way" ...not sure what she meant by the second one but you get the idea. Well said and thank you for your input.
@light of darkness You seriously need to think about what these terms infer. "White Power" and "Bros Before Hos" are not directly comparable as one represents one group having power over another directly linked to the ideaologies of slavery and lynching, while the other come from an ideaology that friendship matters more than sex. "White Power" is an unacceptable term. "Bros Before Hos" is infering a choice, not murder and slavery. Something comparable to "White Power" would have to be an outright statment of hate to all women like "All Women Must Be Slaves or Die" as their is no phrase that holds the same meaning as "White Power". The way you (and others) have to compare a joke about to a choice between genders to a f*cking massacre over hundreds of years to even try to make a point is disgraceful.
@Omni-Tool: How much does it pay? LOL. I can be just as loud and abrasive actually. Ask cgoodno about our discussions here for proof on that. But I'm glad you could find some worth in what I posted though.
Not sure why people don't understand. It's simple really, in reality Sessler wouldn't harm a woman. Many games have gender specific demons to kill, which we don't think twice about. Sessler was immersed in the world, a convincing world & apparently killed a "Demon" woman in a violent way, but as soon as the trophy "Broes before hoes" popped up, it took him out of the fantasy. It would matter if it was the other way around too, but that's not the point. It's a badly named trophy, words mean just as much as images & as such it added a layer which he didn't feel comfortable with.
About nine tenths of the review was about the wealth of design and aesthetic issues he thought the game suffered from, and yet: "Adam is wrong, plain and simple. To say that a trophy name can ruin the game is to admit you either A)Didn't care for the game right from the start and were looking for a reason to justify that, or B)Really need to look at yourself and your priorities if you can be offended by something so small in such a profound way that it ruins an entire game for you." It was just a joke that he thought was fratty and distasteful...and it IS. It's stupid frat humor. Some people may get offended, but mostly it's the kind of humor that's just insulting for it's stupidity. It's not even like he spent the whole review ranting about misogyny. That was about 30 seconds of a nine minute review detailing how he didn't care for the difficulty spikes, and the earthy color scheme, and the poor narrative, and the reworked combat and the troublesome camera angles and so on and so forth. But no, I suppose you're all right. It was just his silly misinterpretation of an off-color joke that caused his bias.
@LightofDarkness 'To further the context, imagine if you were playing GTA and brutally murdered a black character. You wouldn't have thought much of it generally (gangland crime being what it is) but then a trophy pops up and says "white power". No,not even close to being the same. People are so sensitive and get offended by the dumbest stuff i swear. I understand where sessler was coming from.He wasnt offended by the trophy resulting from the action but more confused so to speak because of the trophy being out of context
The phrase itself is a every day colloquialism, much like a majority of trophy titles are. As to the trophy itself..here is the definition of misogynistic reflecting or exhibiting hatred, dislike, mistrust, or mistreatment of women From the description of the trophy I would say that yes, it is indeed misogynistic, because you have to mistreat a woman to get it. On the other hand, pretty much everyone is mistreated in GOW. I didn't see anyone calling foul when you got the achievement "Spread 'em" in GOW2 for bending over the translators and bashing their heads repeatedly against the stones. That trophy has a definite sexual overtone to it, even more so than this one...but I guess since it's a guy it's OK.
I think it's a little sad that DragonKnight, summed up what Misogyny actually is and how this doesn't apply, but we're still here arguing over it. Or even worse, whether or not the trophy name offends your delicate sensibilities. The game has a dark and violent tone to it, and if memory serves me right the trophies have always been named in this kind of fashion. I don't see why someone was surprised by this, coupled with the fact that your target in this situation isn't even HUMAN. If killing the Xenomorph Queen earned you a Trophy/Achievement called... Queen Bitch would that be "Misogyny" too? (Lazy example, but yeah)
To be fair. During the time period Gow is set in, that is the way they thought about women....actually much much worse. The best thing about this thread though, is how many people have relayed stereotypes of black people trying to relate it to how it's comparable to women.
The problem is you guys are taking it to seriously. It was a joke bros before hoes who hasn't said that. Plus it's not like he's stomping a real women it's a creature thing not even real. I guess it's okay if hes stomping another guy lol... I don't remember anyway complaining when we were bashing Hercules face in..God society is becoming pathetic when every little thing is offensive it's just so ridiculous..I heard and seen much worse things done to women or men in movies but I guess that's okay...
Yeah because the people complaining about that throphy are religious, gtfo. Quit blaming something you don't even believe it. People are the ones that are ignorant.
The way I interpreted his complaint about the trophy is that it's just some dumb immature joke after you do something fairly serious. As a result, when he used to take the game's story as serious, and adult, he finds it hard to after. At the end of the review he asks, rhetorically, if the game is just for "bros". I'm not saying I agree with him I'm just saying what I think he meant.
They should patch the trophy and call it "Sessler's a sissy"
adam sessler has an opinion and his opinion is just that an OPINION. he made a big issue of it and he was stuck on one part for 6hrs so maybe he just doesn't get GOW series its a GOW game with Kratos we don't need review scores to tell us its another GOW game
while i can see why some people would have a problem with the existence of that trophy and most likely by next week will be some news about womens rights issues with the game it honestly doesn't look like it has any impact on the gameplay other then a small unimportant and stupid trophy that at the very end of the day does not matter
If there was a trophy that had a white guy killing a black guy in a gruesome way, I wouldn't have a problem with it if it was a part of the narrative. But if a trophy popped up and said "KKK" then I would have a BIG problem with it. It's always a joke for people until it's about them. I say let's call it out now so in the future we won't look like idiots and try to explain how this came to happen.
The slavery, subjugation, and murder of blacks in the US is not comparable to anything that has happened to women, so GFTO with that nonsense.
"But if a trophy popped up and said "KKK" then I would have a BIG problem with it." Why? Were you a slave? Do you know any living person who is a slave? See, the problem with your mentality is that it does more harm than good. People say they want racism abolished, then they say something like you just said. You know how you get rid of racism? By moving the f*ck on. Pea-brained morons make up the KKK. By being offended by them, you grant them power. Thus, it is a choice to allow racism to continue, because offense is a choice. This is the same thing with the Bros before Hos trophy. It's not even on the same level as slavery, and yet people are equating it as that same kind of hate. People are looking for a reason to be offended by it even though there is literally nothing hateful about it. It's not discriminatory, it doesn't cause people to treat women differently, UNLESS YOU CHOOSE TO LET IT DO THAT!
It's only a problem because people keep bringing racism up. If you want to get rid of it stop talking about it.
@Dragon His example would be offensive to me, simply because I find the very thought of slavery and racism to be horrendous. It may not be legal in most countries of the world, but it is legal in some parts of it. Even in places where it isn't legal there is still underground slavery, such as the sex trade market. In this case race isn't the issue, but the thought that something so distasteful would be used in a way to be humorous when there are real issues that affect real people at this very moment. Racism still exists, and ignoring it doesn't make it go away, it just allows it to foster in places outside the mainstream...such as the KKK. Ignoring it just allows people to remain ignorant on both sides of the fence. I don't need to know a slave, or know someone who as been affected by it, or be of a race who has had it in their history to know that racism is bad, and should never be justified or ignored. We live in a society that has been effected by the tides of racism and slavery. Because of this, the thought of the KKK, or other similar unlikable things, is considered taboo, and for good reason. All that being said, I agree the analogy is nowhere near appropriate.
@Hufandpuf If you can't tell the difference between saying "Hey, sorry I'm going to hang out with my friends Bro's before Ho's" Is totally different from saying something derogatory about their nationality or ethnicity. You probably aren't fit to be debating this topic. What you said is totally different, it must be hard living when you're so easily offended.
Wow, kinda lost respect for Sessler, what a drama queen. Its rated M for a reason Sess.
I wasn't aware that an M-rating stood for "being a pointless sh*t to women".
Well said sir
Kratos would've done the same thing to a man.
@eferreira It helps if you actually read the argument before responding to it. The trophy is the problem.
You guys really need to take a chill pill and get out more. This pretty much prove this generation of gamers are a bunch of pansy who dont get out much. I dont know where everone is from but where I'm from there are women, and some are ladies and some are bitches and hos. Why must we put women on a pedestal and pretend like they are all ladies. Gtfo here with that crap. I know some that would take your lunch money and stab you in the neck. Besides this is a video game and a M rated one. Plus its a joke! Jebus we have all seen and heard way worst in movies and the internet and real life so what is the fuss? I meanbin this same game and series you pretty much rip everyone and everything to pieces and have orgies with women and we ae complaining about the name of a TROPHY?!!!
I don't expect anyone to understand, well, at least not on the internet. He never gave it a lower score because of the trophy name, I am sure he is smarter than that. What makes you different from the guy/girl next to you? Imagine if the trophy was called "Bye bye KFC" when you killed a black guy, or "goodbye retard" to a disabled person? What I am saying is, the trophy was out of line, for sure. Women in GOW games are usually sex objects, which is fine, but this just re-affirms what SSM think about them. Again, enjoy the game, but respect Sessler's opinion. Just make sure the next time someone offends you you don't go crying and screaming. I am a male gamer btw, and open minded.
Exaggerate much ? In old ancient times women weren't treated equal so it makes sense for them to be treated that way in the game. LOL! Its just a game, fail more. People study God Of War like its real life. Also your KFC comment was disgusting even for an example, that was very low. Nintendo fanboys are agreeing with Sessler, shocking! Edit: LOL, you should watch bukkake videos from Japan, now that is degrading and real life.
I'm sorry, but the KFC thing, was not racist. I was using a stereotype, but not directing it at anyone in a hateful way. You kids need to learn what racism is before you try to make me out as the bad guy. Fact is, also, TongatAli, you are unintelligent little boy. Yes,the women are used in context in the game, but couple that WITH the name of the trophy and it doesn't look that great on SSM. Please people, re-educate yourselves, or just plain educate yourselves before replying to me. Disagree all you want, you are just proving the internet is full of little brats, or at least idiotic, ape-like humans. Cry more. To GOW fans, enjoy the game. But please don't excuse questionable decisions by SSM or whoever thought up the name of the trophy.
Are you REALLY comparing centuries of racism to make believe violence?
@Cleverusername He is, in an ultra hamfisted way. @Banbrother Your assertion that this trophy and the history of the games with sex confirms that SSM has some kind of issue with women, is just stupid. It's so mindbogglingly stupid I can't believe anyone would think such a stupid thing. "Bro's before Ho's" isn't in the same league as "Bye Bye KFC" or "Goodbye Retard". That is such a poor comparison, and you are completely missing the point of those who disagree with the idea that the trophy name is something to be abhorred. You are well within your rights to find it in poor taste but to say it's a horrible offensive thing is wayyyy off base. You say you're open minded, I really disagree.
Same here. He was WAAAAAAAAAAY overreacting. It was actually cringe worthy just watching him complain about that. lol
''Bye bye KFC'' Dang.
You lost "respect for Sessler" because he expressed a valid criticism? lol, who's the drama queen?
Learn how to read. I still respect the man. Edit: @cleverusername EXACTLY! Drama queens, all of them.
Explain how his criticism was valid. In what way did "Bros before Hos" show a profound hatred and distrust towards women?