520°
Submitted by uneasiest 696d ago | opinion piece

Should Sony stay with the Cell CPU for the PS4?

OmniGamer Writes "Most industry sources are convinced that Sony's next generation console will not have a Cell based CPU. In my opinion if these rumors are true, this will be a huge mistake! I understand why Sony might think they should ditch the Cell technology; developers are complaining about the difficulties of extracting processing power from Cell." (Next-Gen, PS3, Sony)

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MultiConsoleGamer  +   696d ago
Streaming games from Gakai will not require a cell processor.
Septic  +   696d ago
Contrary to what a lot of fanboys think, the Cell processor is not responsible for helping the Earth revolve and rotate about its own axis.

For backwards compatibility's sake then maybe but, as far as I'm concerned, down with the old stuff and in with the new.

I won't even pretend to know about the intricacies of the processor so I guess my opinion is as useful as a one legged man in an arse kicking contest. I just know that a lot of developers had some trouble getting acquainted with the system and I'm all for making it easier for developers to make games. I severely doubt Sony will go down the same route again. They can't afford to do so. The VITA's architecture possibly offers an insight into what Sony's future endeavours are.
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nukeitall  +   696d ago
The Cell architecture excelled in some areas and sucked arse in many many others that console needs. Developers don't care that it can do massive computations if it is bottle necked at getting the data or spend ardeous time trying to figure out complex structures.

I hope Sony skips Cell for their own sake!
darthv72  +   696d ago
streaming....
we really know nothing about gakai or how it will work with the ps4 or even the current ps3 so lets set that off to the side for now.

as to the cell, it has shown to be a good chip design in the hands of those who know how to use it. Its not meant to be a drop in replacement to traditional programming but the amout of time and effort put into it has been rewarded with some really great games that appear to be unlike ones we have seen/played before. That feat could be either the work of the cell or just really patient and talented programmers.

To keep production costs low, the ideal path would be an advanced cell. One with more cores but using an easier programming language to get them all to work on tasks independently.

A bump in speed and performance can go a long way in this next gen of consoles. We know they will play games and we know they will have more smart features.

To think this next gen will be the big revolutionary experience is somewhat of a misnomer. These companies and game developers are more interested in making a return on investment (time/labor) than having to go back to the drawing board to do it all over again with a new set of tools that havent been fully realized.

The ps4 and 720 will more than likely take the same path that the wii-u did. Utilizing tried and true design but improving on the weaker points to make a more robust and well balanced platform.
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chadwarden  +   696d ago
Umm duh the Cell powers Chuck Norris.
Outside_ofthe_Box  +   696d ago | Well said
***"Contrary to what a lot of fanboys think, the Cell processor is not responsible for helping the Earth revolve and rotate about its own axis."***

Are you referring to yourself when you claim that people think that because I doubt anyone ever thought that.

Sony isn't going to stay with the cell. Sony made it evident that they are going the developer friendly route as they put emphasis on that with the Vita. I really hope Sony finds a way to do BC though while still making the console affordable.
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morkendo23  +   696d ago
@ darthv72

from what your saying seem to me Sony an MICROSOFT
agents purchase a wii-U dissasemble it, tweek for their specification. apply the technology as ps4-720 tablet console. with that bing said
having consumers think it is a new technology but in reality a clone of wii-u tech.
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nukeitall  +   696d ago
@darthv72:

"Its not meant to be a drop in replacement to traditional programming but the amout of time and effort put into it has been rewarded with some really great games that appear to be unlike ones we have seen/played before."

NO! Don't confuse great games as a result of hard work and talent to ones resulting from technology. There is nothing special about the Cell that has enabled any revolutionary game mechanics unseen before, unlike the Wii with motion control.

Sorry, this entire generation is a small advancement in games except for the Wii and maybe Kinect. Ironically, the Wii is weakest of the bunch of consoles in the past 6-years!
torchic  +   696d ago
why would you shoot yourself in the foot and invalidate your own opinion like that?

the moment you admitted to not knowing anything about the CELL, you threw your own opinion out the window and into the rubbish garden. c'mon don't do that to yourself.
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pixelsword  +   696d ago
Keep the cell, but improve on support. Make it easy for people since it's still new relative to the industry.
Azmatik  +   696d ago
I thought the only thing wrong with ps3 was not enough RAM? The cell and gfx could hold its own, obviously old now but ya i remember it was only RAM problems. If the cell can read code at like 30gfps imagine if they added 4gb ram and newer gfx ps4 would probly be insane. Plus all the new computer talk of gpgpu and how amazing it is in computers too, correct me if im wrong but hasnt the ps3 been doing that process for awhile? Doesnt the cell handle gfx physics too? Clearly sony has experience with all this tech and had along time to perfect it, i vote their staying with a newer CELL. All over the world people were saying "hook 3-4 ps3's together and you have the fastest supercomputer in the world" it even helped look for a cure for cancer! Overall its gona be a big surprise with every console and this year will be huge!
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nukeitall  +   696d ago
@Azmatik:

I think you are widely confused (without knowing it) due to all the techno mumble jumbo marketing speak companies feed you.

The Cell architecture is indeed very fast, but excelling in one area and loosing in another hardly makes it ideal. It's like saying a sprinter is super fast, and everyone says it therefore he must be an excellent swimmer.

The Cell approached (at the time) super computer capabilities given the right type of computation. Give it another and it chokes faster than ARM processor. Physics where there is little input data and huge computations is ideal for Cell, but branching code with lots of logic, or that needs large amount of data chokes it.

"Clearly sony has experience with all this tech and had along time to perfect it, i vote their staying with a newer CELL."

Some things aren't fought with just experience, but the right decision making. Sony made a huge bet on the wrong horse. I hope for Sony's own sake that they drop the Cell, implement some of what they learn from it into the next and move on.

"it even helped look for a cure for cancer!"

So can any computer, older than the PS3. More importantly you should ask, what is it good for, rather than getting hung up on "but it does x, y, and z" i.e. I don't care how fast a car drives, if I can fly faster or how faster a plane can fly over a car if I *need* to drive!
Tvensky  +   696d ago
@ chadwarden

you are wrong! Chuck Norris is the one who powers everything not the cell, don't you read the internet!?
hakis86  +   696d ago
First off; The author at Omnigamer should try to write better english - when I read it I find it slightly difficult because it seems like he is "talking" (writing) without catching his breath... More commas, dude!

Anyway: I would like to see an improved and beefed up version of The Cell (<--brilliant marketing name btw, sounds cool), a more powerful version that is also way more flexible and easier for developers to port from/to. Maybe that is best done with a really solid SDK.

Excited for next gen, personally I will be disappointed with the specs of the PS4 (and 720) if both are AMD's APU+GPU-thingy - just not enough power in those to run highly detailed games in 1080p @ 60 FPS. =(
(Edit: they might be able to _today_, but they are supposed to have some juice left for the future)
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vulcanproject  +   696d ago
CELL was really a failure, It never really made it commercially and GPGPU flattened it quickly in the supercomputer segment as well.

Sony should and will ditch the architecture because it is outdated and no longer very relevant in the post GPGPU computing world. Computing moves very fast, so there is little reason besides backwards compatibility to continue using the chip inside a games console.

Sony will switch to something much more sophisticated and streamlined, cheaper to manufacture most likely but much more flexible.

The right choice.
joeorc  +   696d ago
@nukeitall
"but branching code with lots of logic, or that needs large amount of data chokes it. "

Stop..just Stop right there, you have no freaking Idea ABOUT ANYTHING ON THE CELL, BECAUSE YOU ARE JUST REPEATING WHAT YOU HEARD FROM OTHER DEVELOPER'S, AND NOT FROM YOUR OWN EXPERIENCE!

How do i know, for one Branch prediction is not what you use for the Cell, its a prefetch call memory system, why in the hell would you use Branch prediction? Oh that's right because that is the way your Game engine was made for other types of processor's and you would have to have tool's made or make one's your self.

Just keep talking, this is very amusing.
GuyThatPlaysGames  +   696d ago
I say ditch the Cell. The so-called "most powerful processor". I knew that was a lie when I heard that before it came out. Sony is full of lies. The system is "so powerful" that's why it takes 30 seconds to load the xmb in game. -_-
HateFanboys  +   696d ago
@nukeitall

Why are ARM processors known to choke a lot?

Also, i know this may be a little bit off topic, but does the Cell run at 3.2Ghz or 3Ghz? cuz i thought it was 3.2ghz but know im starting to wonder. And the even bigger question for me is, does the GPU run at 550Mhz or 500Mhz and GDDR3 run at 700Mhz or 650Mhz?
ThanatosDMC  +   696d ago
@chadwarden

Reported for blasphemy. Cell is a dead skin cell of Chuck Norris.
vulcanproject  +   696d ago
CELL's core speed is 3.2ghz.

RSX's CORE speed is 500mhz, GDDR3 speed is 650mhz as shown in dumps from machines running linux. 700mhz modules have been used in models but their speed is still set to 650mhz.

Sony were ambitious with their vision for PS3's hardware but ultimately it never quite came to fruition, the idea of using two CELLs, trying to sell the CPU commercially and getting it into consumer devices like desktop PCs/smart TVs (as Toshiba tried etc etc)

Plan B after the dual CELL failed was to jam in an Nvidia GPU, which was less than ideal. 360 had a hugely advanced (for the time) custom core designed specifically for Microsoft's requirements. RSX was just an off the shelf part that was already a year out of date by the time PS3 launched.

The worst mistake with RSX was the decision to cripple it's memory bus and ROPS performance. This was made with intentions of improving yields no doubt.

Sony need to focus better on their new hardware and make sure it is right, and will work.
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Autodidactdystopia  +   696d ago
You guys might want to listen to vulcanproject he's the only one who is actually right in this whole thread.

Im not gonna write a wallotext like i usually do.

Cell is Cool in ways but it doesnt have the scope to compete with the next generation of home boxes largely for the reasons stated by vulcanproject.
Azmatik  +   695d ago
Everything ive said still stands its been proven at one point multiple ps3's hooked together is the fastest number crunching super-computer ever. I dont judge off marketing.... Its also fact the major issues with the ps3 is really only the RAM and the crazy slow read speed of the blu-ray drive. Of course nowadays almost everything is outdated in it. BUT fact is sony always have made their own new special tech stuff so the chances of just a regular AMD or Intel cpu are VERY unlikely and the chance of sony developing a completly evolved and upgraded cell is likely, like do you really think sony will screw over their top developers like GG and NaughtyDog who to this day make rediculously amazing looking and playing games some say even on par with top notch PC games and yes was developed on 5 year old and aparently "garbage" tech called the Cell. In all reality i think ppl need to stop confusing PC developer talk and console talk just because a dev whos not used to change and only think of what makes their job easier to get a easier paycheck instead of thinking possible tech revolution and doesnt know how to work something doesnt mean its garbage. The ps3 architechture is far different then PC hence why its not called a PC and why hardware in a PC and a console really shouldnt be compared. I actually do know what im talking about in some departments and what i do know is ps3 RAM was too low and blu-ray read was too low hence why we always have installs cause the HDD can read faster thats really the only problem considering real developers stating the Cell chip rlly only got bottleneckd now proves its a worthy investment. @ Vulcanproject: No ur actually not right the nvidia chip was implemented when ps3 was made and the dual Cells in the TVs came years after and was actually an amazing idea beaing able to see, what was it like 30 different live TV shows on one screen kinda pointless yet imagine the press of a button and u can view every TV channel u wanna watch and see which ones are on commercial. Your giving off the impression Sony already tried throwing in 2 cell chips for ps3 which is not right at all.
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vulcanproject  +   695d ago
It is well documented that PS3 was initially designed to use two CELL processors, because they were supposed to be scalable but the CELL project never met these design goals. So sony had to go with plan B, and the Nvidia GPU. A GPU considerably inferior to Xenos in 360. It is blatantly a later addition to the design rather than an early concept.

Microsoft got a unified shader GPU with several DX10 style features like a hardware tesselator an entire year before PS3 turned up with a DX9 class GPU that wasn't even that good in the first place, the Radeon X1k parts were better.

So yeah I'm right, go look it up.

Also while you're at it, go look up what a paragraph is mkaaay?
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dboyc310  +   696d ago
They have invested so much into the cell that I doubt they will just throw it away.
Me too. Wonder if it can fit inside a camera...

@below

tis true... glad I didn't say cell phone. But I'm sure they'll try to apply it to SOMETHING.
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Shaman  +   696d ago
Really? A Cell in camera? You would change batteries every few minutes...And no, they aren't going with Cell anymore, its all AMD.
Tei777  +   696d ago
The money has already been wasted, it cost double the cost of the 360 processor at launch yet we definitely haven't seen double the yield. Theres no way sony will let it hold them back in terms of keeping the costs down next gen. They'll drop cell just like they dropped UMD.
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MikeMyers  +   696d ago
Sony needs to serve the purpose of game developers, not what's proprietary to Sony's philosophy. They need to get away from being different, because the Playstation platform relies mainly on 3rd party publishers.

They no longer have the influence within the industry to dictate how games are made.
Consoldtobots  +   696d ago
exactly, Sony first party studios have already more than proved what the CBE is capable of. It is up to third party developers to choose mediocrity by developing for desktop/ms architectures. Another point that everyone's missing is the fact that third party developers have shown that appeasing microsoft is a better business model than running the risk of having a PS3 version of their title come out clearly superior to it's 360 counterpart. In other words why would Sony move away from a proven architecture in order to please developers who have already stated by their actions that they have no interest in helping Sony's hardware demonstrate it's competitive advantage?

IMO this is all FUD from those in the industry that don't like the possibilities the CBE has shown for game simulation on a truly massive and next gen scale. They'd rather keep status quo for architectures where they are top dog and don't have to rebuild their visual studio libraries for Sony's architecture.
Saigon  +   696d ago
Can some one answer this for me?

I was wondering what would happen if Sony decided to combine the Cell chip (hypothetically, 16-cores, remember the Cell chip was initially suppose to be a graphics chip and maybe Sony finally figured it out) with the AMD APU. What would the reality be of doing this and what would it yield. I ask because of the article that was posted on NeoGaf regarding the Sony Patten for two GPUs, One for standard processing and the other for high yield processing.
ZoyosJD  +   696d ago
combining cell and an apu would be a waste. the graphic half of the apu would become the bottleneck and you would have a massive amount of processing power with nothing to use it on.

that would also mean 2 cpus and a low end gfx chip rather than 2 gpus as formetioned in the neogaf post.

my expectations are an apu and a decent gfx card...hofefully an a-10 5800k apu and a hd 7970. should be enough to run launch games at 4k 60 fps for a price of $500 early to mid 2014.
wishingW3L  +   696d ago
it wouldn't work because APU is x86 & x64 while the Cell is a completely different architecture. The only thing that comes to mind is that article about switchable GPU ( http://www.examiner.com/art... ) because the Cell could use the GPU on the APU to render PS3 games (you know for BC).

And for the love of god @ZoyosJD, da hell are you talking about? 4k/60 frames with an HD 7970? Are you nuts? XD

First, the HD 7970 doesn't has the power to render that. In fact, no single card has the power for that. And second, that card costs almost $500 so get real. Just look at the benchmarks: http://www.hardocp.com/arti...

Sleeping Dogs: 5040x1050 at only 20 frames with HD 7970
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3GenGames  +   696d ago
Wrong, moron. x64 is just an extension of x84, functionally they work the same. One just has a 64-bit instruction size, and one has a 32-bit. The patent for the GPU part is them planning on using ONE chip and ONE GPU, but combining the functionality of both chips in to one, where it gets toggled, as the way you write/DMA to the GPU on Intel architecture is probably a bit different from on the Cell. Basically, it means it's almost 100% certain that the next console will use a X64 processor. Also most likely from AMD. It has nothing to do with the x86 vs x64, it's how the x## micros work over all.
ATi_Elite  +   696d ago
The Cell..........
is DEAD!!!

AWESOME chip but in a x86-64 world the Cell just has NO DEMAND.

MS/Sony are going x86-64 thus allowing more Devs to easily program for, allow other non gaming programs to easily run, and allows for greater flexibility in the future.

Sony is gonna use Gaikai for backwards compatibility and also if the PS4 is powerful enough a software Emulator will work for ps3 games.

Toshiba IBM and Sony are the 3 companies that were responsible for the Cell

1. Toshiba no longer uses the Cell in it's products.

2. Sony bought the Cell manufacturing plant back from Toshiba

3. IBM has shut down all it's Cell servers

4. and nothing Big or news worthy has come from the Sony Toshiba IBM Center of Competence for the Cell Processor....except IBM's Cell servers which were shut down and taken offline!

The Cell could make a comeback but right now I just have NO info on what it would be in!!
cytricks  +   696d ago
You know using a different ISA does not make a game easier to make right?

Most games are written in C++ not pure assembly. It is up to the compiler to translate the C++ to assembly then machine code. You can do almost everything you can do in x86 processor as you can with a PowerPC core ISA.

PS. This is not a x86 world. I strongly believe everyone has more ARM products that x86 around their homes.
Muerte2494  +   696d ago
I think it would be wise...
to keep the Cell. They already own majority of the stock and the manufacturing plant for the CEll. We'll never know until we get the final product. But wouldn't it be cheaper to do it in-house rather than outsource and pay another company?
DeadlyFire  +   696d ago
Sony's best option is to keep its Cell/RSX chip going and drop them in PS4 for solely backwards compatibility.

People claim oh Gaikai is how to do backwards compatibility. Well if I just bought a PS3 game in 2014 gaikai isn't going to play that disc. Not buying it again if I trade my system. No, no. PS4 will have Blu-Ray, and 6 times the power of what this generation of consoles has done.

The best way for compatibility is full emulation on PS4 or for it to read my PS3 discs. Sony owns Cell. They own Blu-Ray. Only problem with that I see is RSX, but AMD has products that can utilize the same APIs that NVIDIA has that the PS3 used with only a few tweaks. It shouldn't be a hard thing to do.

No other way works out with fan appeal. Sure Gaikai could let older games be played, but likely you would have to rebuy them if that is the case. A majority won't. PS1, PS2 titles I can understand, but not PS3.

For power though any AMD CPU while still underdog to Intel will goes miles ahead of the Cell. AMD's top of the line is comparable to a mid-card Intel CPU. Still though x86-64 has many advantages that RISC does not have. One is being that 99% of game developers are accustomed to seeing x86-64/x86(32-bit) applications and code. So everything in general would be easier to craft.

I suspect we will get lower thread count from x86 CPU, but more impressive power output thanks to raw speed. There is no ARM or RISC powered game that can measure up to an x86 title head to head in 2012.
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Autodidactdystopia  +   695d ago
cytricks.

yes more arm around their house, but x86 has about 20 years r&d behind it from the massive community. other architectures have only started to take hold and therefore have almost none of the speed enhancing extensions like intels sse instruction set.

not to mention there is a lot more dirt lying around the earth than there is gold. which one is worth more.

gross oversimplification but my point is billions of research hours vs a smaller number which is arm. arm is good for many things from missiles to calculators, even handheld devices but its limitation is its "designed for a specific task" history. arm has only been general purpose for like 10 years and 4 of which it was only used in industrial environments.
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showtimefolks  +   696d ago
no and simply because sony wants/needs a very developer friendly system and cell is very hard to truly understand
DeadlyFire  +   696d ago
The Cell design itself was meant to be a GPGPU overall that's what it looks like to me.

Next generation Sony I expect we will see a powerful custom APU/GPGPU + Side GPU or some combination like that. As well as Cell 1 or Cell 2 design. If they go with Cell 2 it will likely be for enhancing PS3 games mostly, but there is a chance it could be utilized to assist if it exists. I could see a parallel set of 2-4 Cell CPUs working out really well honestly if that was their direction. Either way I hope Sony makes the right choice. If not give us a delay and make it right.

The patent filled recently for PS4 states [0033] The CPU 301 may include one or more processing cores. By way of example and without limitation, the CPU 301 may be a parallel processor module, such as a Cell Processor. Doesn't confirm anything, but suggestion is there that PS3 games might be compatible in the PS4 at least in the first batch of consoles.
joeorc  +   696d ago
@DeadlyFire
"The Cell design itself was meant to be a GPGPU overall that's what it looks like to me."

EXACTLY!

the Cell is a :

PPE+Multicore GPU Accelerator chip = CPU+GPGPU hybrid chip this was stated by DR. Hofstee

http://www.gamezero.com/tea...

EXAMPLE:

Cell is multi-core, but what is unique about it is the fact that it has two different types of cores sharing memory, which allowed us to optimize each more for their own tasks.

kinda read's like this :
“We expect the Samsung part is the first big.little processor,” said Kevin Krewell, senior analyst with market watcher Linley Group (Mountain View, Calif.). “The A7 cores should be capable of handling most [smartphone] tasks, with the A15 cores only required for maximum performance needs, like video games,” he said

http://eetimes.com/electron...

or this

Sony Computer Entertainment America Inc.

Graphics processing in a computer graphics apparatus having architecturally dissimilar first and second graphics processing units (GPU) is disclosed. Graphics input is produced in a format having an architecture-neutral display list. One or more instructions in the architecture neutral display list are translated into GPU instructions in an architecture specific format for an active GPU of the first and second GPU.

http://appft.uspto.gov/neta...

So with the Cell it was A CPU+GPGPU ALL ON THE SAME PACKAGE Die = The Cell
So with the next chip in the new Playstation it could be CPU+ GPGPU+GPU all on the same Package Die.

best hint is this:

the recent patent+ this interview in jan of last year:

PlayStation 4 - was pushed out again late last year.

Its designed-in longevity is largely a matter of economics. The Cell Broadband Engine that powered the PS3 cost $400m to develop; the main SoC for the incoming console is likely to be a 3D stack incorporating thru-silicon-via technology and could be the first $1bn hardware design project.

Sony- Masaaki Tsuruta

http://mandetech.com/2012/0...
Autodidactdystopia  +   695d ago
Joeorc I cannot confirm or deny any of the points you are trying to make but GREAT presentation and well said.

Way to frame an argument! :)
Walker  +   696d ago
Absolutely Sony Should stay with the Cell CPU . Look at PS3`s Exclusives ! The Last of Us AI Not possible without the CELL !
"Streaming games from Gakai will not require a cell processor."

But they have to port it to pc?
Beastforlifenoob  +   695d ago
4/5 of todays hottest article is on nextgen...
I dont want to hear soo much until its announced everyone calm their titties
FanboyPunisher  +   694d ago
LMAO cell is outdated, hell no.

Pass on consoles, get a PC or the steam HTCP real PC knockoff for console poor people.
DaReapa  +   696d ago
For backwards compatibility's sake, they could. I wouldn't say "should" though.
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guitarded77  +   696d ago
Yeah, the cell has kinda jumped up and bit them in the ass for PS4. I really want BC for PS4, but I don't want some developers skipping PS4, or not knowing how to develop for it. We'll see what happens in the near future.
I really don't care either way. It being an upgraded cell would make it very powerful... but if it's made by amd then it'll be able to handle middleware engines better. As long as it can produce noticeably better graphics and physics and has some good games and services I doubt people will complain.

Edit:

Actually people will find anything to complain about. Especially if it's Sony related.
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NYC_Gamer  +   696d ago
Nope,they should go with the rumored AMD route.
Belking  +   696d ago
They won't stay with cell. It has cost them too much this generation. A simpler architechure is the right way to go.
BanBrother  +   696d ago
Agreed. The Cell has made their exclusives shine above the competition (multi-plats included), but has come at a price. Many developers would prefer to develop on an easier machine, the 360. It resulted in many sub-par multi-plats, at the expense of extremely polished exclusives.

I'd would prefer for them to get rid of it, as it only helps Sony's first party studios, as they get access to more info and in-house engines. Not very 3rd party friendly.
Belking  +   696d ago
"The Cell has made their exclusives shine above the competition (multi-plats included), but has come at a price."

Technically not true. Their exclusives were good because of great development teams and mostly polish. It has less to do with the hardware.
zebramocha  +   696d ago
@belking I assume what banbrother said has to be true because the 360 had a year head star and their games should be comparable in the same time frame,but it took longer for the 360 to have similar games even though its architecture is easier to program for.
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andibandit  +   696d ago
How the hell do you conclude to multiplats included? You mustve meant "multiplats specifically excluded" with all the shitstorm raining down over games like bo2, skyrim, me3 and so on.....
joeorc  +   696d ago
@BanBrother
it helps when your CPU can do GPU centric tasks well!

example:

PhysX Demo

"Mark Rein: One thing AGEIA’s done that’s really smart is that–well, if you’ve seen our PS3 demo, and this is really version .1, really not a finished performance at all, but we’ve got some really great cool physics things going on PS3. They’ve done a really good job of optimizing their library to work well with the SPUs in the Cell processor, which means we’re going to be able to get a lot of physics performance out of PlayStation 3. Also on Xbox 360 to some extent, but definitely on PS3 we’re going to be able to get a lot of physics capabilities out of that. Which means that, to bring [games using those methods] to a PC, you’re probably going to need the hardware. Or you could maybe scale it up even further on the PC, I believe, with their hardware. I think that bodes really well for them if developers go nuts and do really cool physics on PlayStation 3, then if people want to play it to that level on PC, they’ll buy the card. So it’s a matter of them coming out with great applications, great games that use it. I know Ghost Recon Advanced Warfighter will be using the hardware, and Unreal Tournament 2007 will be using the hardware. Not today, but eventually. So I think that’s pretty exciting for them, and I think it’s going to be pretty cool."

http://www.ps3blog.net/2006...

The problem was not really the Hardware it was the expense that 3rd party developer's and Publisher would have to expend on making game engine or tool's in order to take advantage of the system design of the PS3's chipset.

which even 1st party made their own tool's for that purpose, which many 3rd party did not have the luxury or the time or man power to do.

Unlike 1st party. Like you stated it was a trade off, but by using the Cell type of chip design this design made Sony 1st Party developer's better prepared for what type of chip would be in the next playstation and would also help be better in their clean code implementation.
Muerte2494  +   696d ago
Okay...
Why wouldn't they keep the cell? All most developers already have their head around how to program for the cell. DICE, Naughty Dog, Infinity Ward (not treyarch), Crytek, Ubisoft. I mean I covered the main three publishers in games. It would cost them less to just reduce the size of the Cell down 22nm than outsource to AMD. It also doesn't make sense for Sony to buy the rest of Toshiba's stock if they were just going to abandon it. Like people say this isn't 2008 anymore. Most developers know how to program for CELL and Sony first studios excels in it. It puts them in a better position if you ask me.
BanBrother  +   695d ago
@andibandit

Now I know why I got all the disagrees. When I said "multi-plats included", I was talking about exclusives = better than multi-plats in terms of technical aspects.

I didn't want to turn it into PS3 VS 360, so when I said that ps3 exclusives outshone the competition, I also wanted to draw attention to the multi-plat competition. Multi-plats have generally been better on 360, I can admit that.

N4G always starts this whole 360 VS PS3 thing. I just wanted a nice, simple opinion.
Hicken  +   696d ago
Then why haven't games of the same caliber come out on systems with different hardware?

It's not just opinion when it becomes the prevailing consensus, despite what you'd like to have others believe.

Simply put, the best the PS3 has to offer trumps the best the 360 has to offer, and it's not just due to having great in-house developers. It's also due to the difference in hardware, and one of the components that's key in that difference is the Cell utilized by the PS3.
Blank  +   696d ago
Well the way I see it I dont really care what I do care about is that on whatever happens it better benefit for both developer and consumers. For devs by easier programming and consumers for BC and all that good moneysaving/retro library retention plain and simple
patriotZero  +   696d ago
Too late
dboyman  +   696d ago
If they go with the AMD route, they should offer 2 SKUS for PS4 one with a Cell/RSX for full BC and 1 without it...
Hayabusa 117  +   696d ago
Shhhh...stop talking sense...
NastyLeftHook0  +   696d ago
the cell brought the best looking game this gen, the last of us. so if the ps4 wants it, heck yeah, it would be great.
Aloren  +   696d ago
It's not even out yet...

Also, no, it wouldn't be great to have a 7 yo CPU in a new console just cause it can make great games.
I imagine you didn't want the emotion engine to power the PS3 just because God of War looked great on PS2 ?
DarkHeroZX  +   696d ago
Why does it seem like people forget that there are about 3 more modern versions of the Cell that completely blows the Cell used in the ps3 out of the water. Also I'm sure if they added more SPEs then the ps4 could still be a powerhouse. The RSX and ram where the bottleneck not the cell. And the technology currently available for the cell has improved dramatically.
JonnyBigBoss  +   696d ago
Please god no. NO. NO.

http://www.youtube.com/watc...
wishingW3L  +   696d ago
Cell > best APU out there (not counting the fact that is a SoC, just the CPU)

But Crytek basically confirmed that the PS4 will not have a CPU based on the Cell.
#11 (Edited 696d ago ) | Agree(1) | Disagree(10) | Report | Reply
Soldierone  +   696d ago
No, go something more simplistic. While first parties do an amazing job, I'm sick of lazy third parties still whining about it. I'd love to see what they complain about if Sony makes it more basic.

Only real worry is backwards compatibility. Thats it. Sony will do something to make the hardware awesome, I just hope the architecture is more simplistic.
kevnb  +   696d ago
lazy? I think you need to wake up and respect what programmers go through to bring you these games you play. People are sleeping in cots at work to bring you entertainment, and they only have so long to work on it and remain profitable. People like you that call "devs" lazy make me sick.
This is why microsoft has cut so far into sonys market share, despite their faults they respect the developers and programmers more than the competition. This is why windows is on top, and why xbox will be on top eventually.
#12.1 (Edited 696d ago ) | Agree(4) | Disagree(17) | Report | Reply
Soldierone  +   696d ago
Sorry, but if a developer still to this day doesn't know how to program properly on the PS3 (Bethseda) then they are lazy. There are indie developers that don't see a dime for years of development that have figured it out.

It's not too hard sleeping in cots if you are getting paid for it. And some of them just quickly port the game over to PS3 to make a few extra bucks.

If these same "lazy developers" don't want to be called that, then how about respecting the customer? No more timed exclusive crap, and above all else, stop releasing half broken 5 hour long games at 60 dollars a piece? Then further ripping us off with DLC.

And Microsoft sure does "respect the developer." Is that why Bungie left to make a new game instead of being tied to Halo non-stop? And why Rare is only allowed to make crappy Kinect games? lmao Heck how many exclusives and new IPs do they have again? Not counting Kinect crap. Microsoft has it strengths, that aint one of them.
rainslacker  +   696d ago
@Soilder

I really dislike this lazy argument. You gave the answer to your own comment in this line.

" And some of them just quickly port the game over to PS3 to make a few extra bucks."

Developers do a lot of work to get even the most basic of games made. Compounding that into a AAA game is an incredible amount of work. On top of that development teams do not get paid more for sleeping at work, most of them are salaried employees, and they work an incredible amount of hours to make a game.

The fact is is that it isn't about being lazy. In some cases they can be unmotivated, but that's actually pretty rare. Most programmers take great pride in being efficient and getting things to work where they shouldn't.

What it comes down more to is publisher and investor demands. There is no reason to spend the extra time in the eyes of the money holders for them to delay a game to make it work on another system. It's the reason why after patches usually fix a lot of the problems that games may have on release.
Azmatik  +   695d ago
If developers are so passionate for the work they do shouldnt they welcome the possibility of a tech revolution that could change the way they develope games and maybe make things easier? developers didnt know if it sucked when it was first launched all everyone heard from them is oooooo i dont wanna do this and learn new stuff lol
Knight_Crawler  +   696d ago
Lazy developers?

@Soldier - Do you know how much an AAA game cost to make and how much time is put into it?

The Cell is difficult to program with and even Sony admitted it - the reason why PS3 exclusives look so good is becuse Sony made the cell and trained all of there 1st party developers on how use the cell.

When Portal 3 was being made Sony sent a team of there developers to help out with the game and it paid off. Unfortunatly Sony can not afford to do this for every 3rd party game release so hence the reason we get a bad 3RD party ports.

Why should developers have to spend extra time and money on learning how to master the Cell when in the end no benefit is gained from it - Sony got caught up in its own arrogance and realized that people arent sheep...yes the PS2 sold extreamly well but that does not mean that you should launch a $600 console and put some hard to program chip in it.
Zynga  +   696d ago
Well said buddy!
joeorc  +   696d ago
@Knight_Crawler
really? no benefit?

"Why should developers have to spend extra time and money on learning how to master the Cell when in the end no benefit is gained from it "

"master the Cell when in the end no benefit is gained from it - Sony got caught up in its own arrogance and realized that people arent sheep..."

you do know it was not meant to be Sony only processor, right?

IBM and TOSHIBA BOTH INVESTED INTO SUCH CHIP DESIGN. want to know why? because it make's their programmers better prepared for the upcoming chip designs going into consumer electronic's right now. you do know the Hybrid SOC's are now the standard in CHIP DESIGN RIGHT?

back in 2005 and 2006 it was not, but in every freaking Consumer electronic product now day's from smartphone's to Tablets to Smart TV's to Hell DVD player's all are getting advanced chips in them that for all intents and purposes's make them advanced computing platform's far above what their intent was designed for at first.

do you want your developer's to change their idea of just relying on tool's made by other's or get them into the idea to making their implementation of their code clean to the hardware?

just look at Naughty dog's results, hell they even made their own tool's to be used on the hardware. remember its not just about 3rd party tools they have their own 1st party developer's also and if you want to compete you need to have an edge. Not just marketing dollars spent $$$$ if you want to make sure your in house developer's can grow in skill.

yes that does not mean your product will sell more, it just means instead of your developer's may not being able to keep up they will have at least a better chance to grasp the changes of system designs in the future that they may need to work on.
#12.2.2 (Edited 696d ago ) | Agree(3) | Disagree(0) | Report
nycgamer4ever  +   696d ago
Really knightcrawler? Is that your reasoning. So now its Sonys fault that we get some bad ports right? There are no bad ports or games on the xbox, wii or vita?

How is it logical to think that it is Sonys job to make sure 3rd party developers are good at their jobs? Last I checked those developers are talented and they also charge the same price as everyone else for their games so they should put in the same effort to provide a good game.

Why should developers have to spend extra time and money on learning how to master cell? Um. Because they are trying to sell us their game for the same price as other games that are better? Its call competition? If they provide a bad game then guess what they won't sell well compare to a developer who puts in the effort and will lose money! How about for pride in what they do for a living!

Stop trying to hide the fact that some developers just arent that good and talented as others, and it isnt Sonys fault, its theirs.

You guys have such warped minds. Everything is always someone elses fault. Never any accountability.

If yiu thought like that in the workplace then you would be losing out on pay raises and promotions to every joe smoe whibis willing to spedn the extra time and work harder.
atreyu_-  +   696d ago
Portal 3 ? How did I miss that game? You guys are on top of it lol. This is a lot of speculation. The games are what matter and we will not see those for a while yet. Just wait and see who's game are the best,who's UI is better,and who has the features you want. Or buy a PC ..........:)
Muerte2494  +   696d ago
I agree with...
Soldierone on this one. Just look at the Wii U launch games from 3rd party developers. You can't say that they were stumped because Wii U has essentially the same architecture as the XBox360 with a better GPU. Yet games looked worse on Wii U than XBox360 or ps3 in some games. One word, lazy. They didn't even try any type of optimization to take advantage of any of Wii U's pluses. Wii U ran Rayman demo at 1080p @ 60fps without a single dip. Check out DigitalFoundry.

@Soldierone,
First parties do amazing jobs because when one studio created a new technique with the Cell, they uploaded it to SOny Dev internal servers. Another studio would take what was done and improve on it. The trend continued throughout ps3's life cycle and that's why ps3 games always looked better and better with time. A sony product will have 3rd party support, that's just a fact. But the more first party games people buy, the more money coming back from SONY's investment.
Pillsbury1  +   696d ago
I like the rumor of a ps3 sell dongle to attach to the ps4 to allow backwards compatibility. It gives people the option.
rainslacker  +   696d ago
Having an expansion port for this is actually a good idea. I had thought an entirely separate SKU with all the hardware, but a separate card attachment would be convenient and allow the consumer to get BC when they are ready for it, and not cause those that don't care to bear the cost burden.

I'd go even further to say include BC for the PS2 and PS3 in one unit.:)
ZoyosJD  +   696d ago
As much as i love the idea, the wording of the rumor gives it away as a clear fake. Sticking a cell processor in a dongle and having it kept cool is absurd. even if they shrunk the die again, i am almost certain it would run too hot for no ventilation and fans.
rainslacker  +   696d ago
Awww, why do you have to rain on our parade.

Seriously though, you do have a good point. I guess it would depend on what was required to make it work. If it was just a cell chip then an expansion port in a well ventilated area would probably work, but knowing how these consoles are made it's not likely. A separate attachment, similar to say the original Sega-CD that fit underneath may work, but it's unlikely.

I'm still holding out hope for a way to do it without using cloud (if that is their intent with it). I still play older games quite regularly, and I like not having lots of consoles hooked up through a bunch of switches.
first1NFANTRY  +   696d ago
If using the cell means more effective development with less time spent then Sony should def stay with the cell. That way they are able to pump out more Triple A games
kingPoS  +   696d ago
Erm? maybe Sony is planing to offer a modular upgrade for BC. It could be something you add to it like the upgrade HD-DVD for the xbox. I know HD DVD turned out not so well, I'm just using that as an example. If Sony sold BC for ps4 in that way I'd buy it if the price were right.
#15 (Edited 696d ago ) | Agree(1) | Disagree(0) | Report | Reply
kevnb  +   696d ago
bloggers should leave these topics to people who know what they are talking about...
#16 (Edited 696d ago ) | Agree(4) | Disagree(1) | Report | Reply
mwjw696  +   696d ago
If they go with the Cell again they could have backwards compatibility. The bottle necking could also be fixed with a modified architecture. The big problem would be building the games just like with the PS3. The architecture is different from everything else. It makes for very poor ports, or alot of work converting the games to work well.

I hope they go with the AMD and leave the cell behind. Maybe stream with Gakai.
dboyman  +   696d ago
They should offer an alternative to Gaikai. There are lot of ISPs to do limit bandwidth/enforce data caps in a lot of places in North America and other countries. Some places where people live the HSI connections are poor for proper streaming of games, especially with fast paced games like FPS. Some people in rural areas live in area where satellite or dial up are only options. Some have no hsi connections at all. Plus what about those with Physical disks? Gaikai right now cannot be all and end all regarding BC in the PS4. Rather have like what Pillsbury1 said, an OPTIONAL hardware addon, or have a Premium Deluxe model PS4 with the Cell/RSX included for those willing to pay to have FULL BC with PS3 software..
#17.1 (Edited 696d ago ) | Agree(0) | Disagree(0) | Report | Reply
ninjahunter  +   696d ago
There isnt really much reason to use a cell processor...
strigoi814  +   696d ago
The cell only create problem to dumb lazy and not talented team and developers so No..but if developers talent is like Naughty Dogs and Guerilla Games they should stay with the cell..
QuantumWake  +   696d ago
But that's exactly the problem. Not all developers are given the time, budget, and manpower to develop games like Naughty Dog and Guerrilla Games. They are first-party developers that are backed by a blank check from Sony.

Small independent developers are put in a bad position when developing for multiple platforms because of PS3's more complex architecture. CD Project Red said they would have had to split their programming team to work on both the PS3 and Xbox 360. This is one of the reasons why The Witcher 2 ended up being launched on the 360 and not the PS3. I believe 4A Games (developers of Metro 2033) were put in a similar situation.

Looks like AMD processors will power both the next Xbox and Playstation.
MonopolyRSV  +   696d ago
If its powerful enough and leaves more breathing room for multiplatform developers so that they don't have to struggle to fit everything in, its clearly the way to go. No reason to give up on it, just go bigger and badder this time around.
jjb1981  +   696d ago
Naughty Dog = Cell Masters!
Mikey Mike  +   696d ago
The cell processor cost all of 45 dollars now.... So it should not force Sony to do away with PS3 backward compatibility.
#22 (Edited 696d ago ) | Agree(1) | Disagree(4) | Report | Reply
TriangleOffense  +   696d ago
cell or no cell its a no buy for me, this was my last console
RioKing  +   696d ago
Cool story bro.

Related image(s)
AlphaTauri  +   696d ago
Why in God's name would anyone wish for an OLD Cell??? you could wish for the Power7 or Power7+ CPU which performs out-of order execution, can do double precision (the Cell is mostly crippled when doing this), can have up-to 4-way SMT per core, and all are full CPU cores??? This would be a much more ideal chip for games especially considering the ability to do out-of-order execution which is much better suited for AI and physics...
just a lame article from a guy that apparently doesn't read many CPU and GPU tech breakdowns - try reading some Arstechnica or Anandtech.
#24 (Edited 696d ago ) | Agree(1) | Disagree(4) | Report | Reply
Azmatik  +   695d ago
So what your saying is people who like consoles should just build a PC? Because why would i talk about puting PC parts into a console lmao when i would just have a built PC.....
ajax17  +   696d ago
They should stick with the cell processor! It's not like developers still aren't used to it.
Ulf  +   696d ago
A Cell processor, manufactured at the same size as a quad-core, 8MB L3 cache Intel i7, could have 4 PPU cores, sharing 2MB of L2 cache, and 32 SPU processors with a combined 8MB of localstore.

36 cores, instead of the i7's 4. They could probably halve the number of SPUs to 16, and put out-of-order processing, good branch prediction, and triple or quadruple the L2 cache on the 4 PPU cores, if they were smart (i.e. effectively make them Power7s). 4 Power7 cores + 16 SPUs would demolish every other CPU (for gaming) on the market.

Too late now though. You got to plan these things years in advance.
#26 (Edited 696d ago ) | Agree(7) | Disagree(0) | Report | Reply
EverydayGuy  +   696d ago
Sony probably started planning for the next gen after the PS3 was release. They also bought the manufacturing plant for the Cell from IBM. I rather have a Cell processor and a AMD GPU, with XDR 2 ram, and DDR 3.
#26.1 (Edited 696d ago ) | Agree(7) | Disagree(0) | Report | Reply
young7yang  +   696d ago
graphic whores.. all of you...

graphics have reached a point where they will only start to mimic real life.. how much better can they truly get.. not much..

the key now is the hardware behind the software... many people dog on Nintendo.. but they have done something that no other company can claim to match as of now.... in terms of graphics.. today it boils down to art design..

anyway that's my two sense take it or leave it!
#27 (Edited 696d ago ) | Agree(3) | Disagree(8) | Report | Reply
madjedi  +   696d ago
"graphic whores.. all of you..." And this phrase has any real significance anymore why, oh yeah nintendo is releasing another underpowered console.

If it takes 2 $500 cards running in sli or a $900 card and we are still not at true life like quality, i think graphics still have a long ways to go before being maxed out. Especially for consoles, which are typically 7-10 yr behind pcs.

"anyway that's my two sense take it or leave it!" It's cents dumbass not sense, as in the 6 senses people have.

Graphics encompass a hell of alot more than art design(art style maybe), graphics will eventually max out, but not anytime soon.

Then the focus will have to shift to any other gameplay advances that have yet to be implemented if any.

"take it or leave it!" I'll laugh at it just like all the other mindless sheep screaming you graphic whores or rave on and on about innovation.

I have a message for the older generation of gamers crying about every bs cliché, lack of innovative games, graphics are good enough, previous gens were 10,000 times better than this generation ect. (at least i assume it's older gamers)

Stfu everyone of those are a flat out lie, i was there for alot of it, it was good for it's day but gaming has thankfully advanced. There are plenty of nifty/innovative games out, if you idiots would look instead of bitch you would see them.

Yes a game doesn't need incredible visuals to be a good game, but that isn't an excuse to not try to push graphics/atmosphere to be better regardless of stylised or realistic graphics. Because nintendo is still stuck in the past and refuses to adapt to modern times.

Pong was nice back in the day but beyond a minute or 2 not so much.

They were good games but, lay off the annoying excessive retro pride speech.

Excuse me while i enjoy games with both good graphics and fun gameplay.
#27.1 (Edited 696d ago ) | Agree(1) | Disagree(1) | Report | Reply
young7yang  +   696d ago
case and point

assassins creed 3 great graphics but shit gameplay
Truthandreason  +   696d ago
There's not even a new cell being made anymore. Too expensive for Sony to continue making a chip with one sole purpose when its significantly cheaper to use a mass market one like the AMD chip it has already been pretty much confirmed using.

The cell was okay for its time but CPUs have progressed a lot since then as well while the cell has only been shrunken to new process nodes with no further R&D for a next gen chip.

Sony doesn't need the financial burden of producing a new chip anyway when all it does it make developers jobs harder for roughly the same performance in the end. I think next gen will be great for Sony's first party Devs. They will have a cpu and gpu that just works as simply as possible and can spend all the extra time they save making games better, rather then trying to maximize/optimize a unique cpu.
stragomccloud  +   696d ago
Part of me says yes because I want backwards compatibility, the other part of me says no to make things easier on developers.
ziratul  +   696d ago
2 x Cell
4 GB XDRAM
Quad RSX
kainslayer  +   696d ago
intel i5 ,8gb ram,and a gtx680 should power ps4 not amds or sonys crap!!!!
Azmatik  +   695d ago
If sony starts using basic AMD chips im out of the next-gen console and just going straight top of the line PC gaming and im sure alot of ppl will too. Why would i buy a sony console and get all 3rd party chips when i can just build my own.
#30.1.1 (Edited 695d ago ) | Agree(0) | Disagree(0) | Report
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