170°
Submitted by wuerflein 682d ago | opinion piece

Pachter: The Doctors Left Bioware Because of Whiners Like You

Analyst Michael Pachter says that there’s a very good chance the whining about Mass Effect 3 not having a happy enough ending for some of its fans may have been the straw that broke the camel’s back for Bioware founders Dr. Ray Muzyka and Dr. Greg Zeschuk, spurring on their departure from the company, and quite possibly the videogame industry altogether. (BioWare, Greg Zeschuk, Industry, Mass Effect 3, Michael Pachter, Ray Muzyka)

Carl_Shocker  +   682d ago | Well said
I'm getting sick of this...everytime people have concerns with a game they are always called whiners, haters or trolls

FF13, ME3, DA2, Dead Space 3, Resident Evil 5/6, Killzone 3s online, the L4D to L4D2 boycott thing etc

If something is wrong with a game and most of the fans speak out then theres something wrong with the way you've made your game or the way you've handled decisions for it.

It's the reason why we get treat like crap most of the time by developers because other people bash anyones opinion when they speak out...I mean why just because you like being treat like crap by a developer dosen't mean all of us do, your ruining gaming for the rest of us, do people feel the need to defend developers because they think there "being noble". I mean it's the reason why people who have problems with a game get worried incase they are called a "cry baby" or "whiner" when in fact al your doing is voicing your concerns over a game you've bought, it's probably the reason why most people don't speak out.

It's the reason why Square, Capcom, Activison, Bioware and EA are the way they are today....nobody said anything when things were going down hill and look whats happened to them.

We all thought

"Ahhh it's fine, lets give them a second chance" over and over again untill it was too late. Hell some people still do that today.

You know who's going to be next if we learn from past mistakes...Insomniac Games, EA stripping a once good looking, fun, creative game into something bland and generic well you know whats going to happen to them in the future, the same thing which happened to Bioware but your still going to get the "Lets give them a chance", "You need to play it before you judge", "Stop hating, you don't know anything"...yet we do because it's happened before to other games and developers.
#1 (Edited 682d ago ) | Agree(38) | Disagree(18) | Report | Reply
prototypeknuckles  +   682d ago
truth, right here
lociefer   682d ago | Immature | show
CommonSense  +   682d ago
didn't sound like truth to me.

having actually watched this episode after seeing this article, i have to say, i agree with pachter. Gamers act like they are entitled to something even though they aren't the creative minds behind the creation of the franchises they love. gamers need to grow up.

to the doctors (not that you'll ever see this): i liked to the ME3 ending. best game in the series by far.
#1.1.2 (Edited 682d ago ) | Agree(10) | Disagree(19) | Report
zeeshan  +   682d ago
Shut up Pachter! Just shut the f*** up! I am so sick of this guy!

Gamers spend $60/game and support a single game generations after generation. They have EVERY right to voice their opinions and concerns. It seems like the voice of the gamers is soon going to be labelled as the voice of whiners.
#1.1.3 (Edited 682d ago ) | Agree(8) | Disagree(8) | Report
Bimkoblerutso  +   682d ago
Obviously the death threats went way, way too far, but they deserve a great deal of the mess they got.

Usually I defend developer's choices when it comes to narrative and artistic vision, even if I don't particularly connect with it. But the ending can't even be defended under the pretense of artistic vision, because it's a fairly well-known fact that the publishers played a very big part in it's conception. I would have to say that that's something to bitch about, even in the subjective realm of art.

Add to that the fact that they removed an INTEGRAL character from the finished product and released it as day-one DLC, and I'd say you've given quite a few fans cause for being pissed off.
StanSmith  +   681d ago
I swear... If I see the new internet buzzwords "entitled", "whiners", or "cry-babies" once more, I will literally blow up the internet.
Mainsqueeze  +   681d ago
No, Pachter is completely right. There is a big difference between whining and constructive criticism. I would say the vast majority of what people were doing was whining, crying, and just being completely self entitled. Sorry but in no way did Bioware treat anybody like "crap" and if you think so you should literally look in the mirror and look at how people treated them after the ME3 ending. In the end EA didn't kill Bioware, The Doctors didn't kill Bioware, nope all the self entitled whiners did, and because of them Bioware's games will definitely not be the same ever again. And for the record i didn't think the ME3 Ending was anywhere near perfect, but i thought that the game was still very enjoyable and i didn't find the need to go on to every single forum that i'm registered to and make death threats like alot of people did.
Outside_ofthe_Box  +   682d ago
Well Said.

I have no idea why people call it whining when there are literally essays written about what is wrong with the game. If anything that shows how much people love that particular game/franchise and want it to be the best it can be.
Carl_Shocker  +   682d ago
I understand if it was something small which the developers have accidently done or something which has been talked about in the wrong way during an interview but most of the time people have good solid points to back up there "complaints"

"I have no idea why people call it whining "

You know what I like to call it....someone learning from past mistakes

FF13 lightning returns is being bigged up like FF13-2 to have huge changes and to fix problems, like they are listening to fans. FF13 showed me they had lost touch with their FF fanbase, FF13-2 didn't improve hardly anything so why should people defend them with FF13 Lightning Returns

Resident Evil 5 became action like, we give them a chance and with RE6 they had ignored fans complaints and ruined the game even more. With RE7 in the future do you think I'm going to give them another chance...nope

Dead Space 3...after whats happened with RE6 people should know what will happen.

I could go on with this wrong with this gen and the games that at one time used to be part of a great franchise....some people like to think of it as being "negative" but with how ugly the games industry has gotten are people actually surprized that some people just can't be quite and take in all the horrible changes when we lived through the golden age of the gaming industry last gen and the gen before hand.
ziggurcat  +   681d ago
@ outside:

it's whining because it's a ****ing *video game*. it's not important enough to get your panties all up in a bunch over.

and if you (i mean "you" in the general sense, not you personally) spend the time to write an essay over the alleged flaws in a video game's ending, you really need to get a life and re-evaluate your priorities. it's about as pathetic as going to a star trek convention and pointing out continuity flaws to the cast.

it's one thing to voice your concern over functional issues that ruin a game's experience (i.e. skyrim on PS3), but sitting there and crying over an ending/character model just makes you look like a spoiled, entitled, whiny little brat.

and if the founders did leave actually bioware because of you basement-dwelling crybabies? yeesh...

or do you think that uttering death threats because of how they ended ME3 is acceptable?
AngelicIceDiamond  +   681d ago
Right, when there favorite game changes to much people get mad. But when there game changes to little people get mad.

Cod, Resident Evil, Dragon Age, Deadspace, Mass Effect.

All got there formulas changed or changed very little. What I find particularly annoying is the fans are aware of the changes (or lack of change) and still buy into it every time.

I honestly don't want it to come down to devs making games for the fans and completely throwing away there ideas and there work.

Now I understand, some of the decisions that devs make are kindergarten and think "who came up with that?" But they're the ones waking up every morning and have to come up with original ideas for games and sequels not us.

As far as this is concerned I'm in the middle. Fans are very loud and voicy and devs make Kindergarten decisions. Its a iffy situation.
LightofDarkness  +   681d ago
Hey Ziggurcat.

Just because you clearly don't place much value on art in your own life doesn't mean that everyone else doesn't, and it certainly does not give you the right to be patronizing and downright insulting to those that do.

People like you disgust me. If you're so superior to all of us "basement-dwelling crybabies", why are you posting on a website that is practically dedicated to discussions like this? If you have no interest in such topics, why are you still here? Or could it be that you're upset because people valued your input so little that you have but one opportunity to speak in any article on this site?

Oh, here's a logic fail for you: "it's about as pathetic as going to a star trek convention and pointing out continuity flaws to the cast." No, that'd be akin to people complaining to the voice cast of Mass Effect about it. I don't believe there was very much of that, and the onus/focus was obviously on the creative arm of Bioware.

And of course people around here (by and large) don't condone death threats. That's a straw-man argument for one, but it's frankly sickening that you think it's OK to insinuate that they do.

Here's a piece of advice for you, Mr. Impotent Rage: get the f**k over yourself. You must have aching saddle sores from that high horse of yours.
#1.2.4 (Edited 681d ago ) | Agree(5) | Disagree(3) | Report
Outside_ofthe_Box  +   681d ago
lol @ ziggercat

The amount of agrees you have amazes me.

If video games aren't "important enough" why are you wasting your time commenting? Don't you have supposedly more important things to do that take priority over complaining about people complaining?

I obviously don't condone death threats and I don't understand what's wrong with someone voicing their concerns of a video game's ending or anything they like/dislike about a game for that matter. If you see it as someone who has no life and/or needs to get their priorities straight then that's you. I see it as someone who is passionate about that particular game and/or franchise and I don't give a **** if you see it as not having a life or pathetic.

When you put something out into the public eye it is open to BOTH praise and critique. Complaining or voicing your opinion on something doesn't make you entitled or spoiled or whiny.

Video games are "important enough" for me and as such I think it is acceptable for people to write novel on what they like/dislike about a game. Since video games aren't "important enough" for you I suggest you stop frequenting websites/forums that are obviously meant for people that do see video games as "important enough."
#1.2.5 (Edited 681d ago ) | Agree(2) | Disagree(2) | Report
NonApplicable  +   682d ago
Dude... There were A LOT of whiners. How do you explain the death threats?
Chaotic_Lament  +   681d ago
Death threats are inexcusable. But critiquing a game is not whining.
FiachDubh  +   678d ago
The same way you explain the death threats that any other service-product provider/business/etc. receives. As crazy idiots, who make us all look bad.

Of course, you have to have the common sense enough, not to lump them in with every single other person complaining/protesting.

How old are you, that you sincerely need this explained to you?
#1.3.2 (Edited 678d ago ) | Agree(1) | Disagree(1) | Report
TacticAce  +   682d ago
While I understand where you are coming from I do believe that there are lines you just dont cross when criticizing and some mass effect fans crossed it.
tuanmatized  +   682d ago
u type too much
Themba76  +   681d ago
you left cod out that also should be on that list
360ICE  +   681d ago
Indeed
And actually, I'd say gamers are entitled to something.
Forget the obvious idea that you pay money for the game, but if gaming is supposed to be art, and art is supposed to artistically belong to everyone who experiences it, wouldn't that mean that the artist does have some responsibility for his or her fans?

Imagine if ME3 was the worst game ever, to take this to its logical extreme, then would Bioware not have ruined a world in which the ME fans are emotionally invested?

This is why people "whine" when they changed E.T. in the DVD re-release, and while I think the artist should be free to experiment, we should be equally free to criticise when we feel the experiment is going the wrong way.
#1.7 (Edited 681d ago ) | Agree(3) | Disagree(1) | Report | Reply
nukeitall  +   681d ago
The problem isn't nobody said anything, but rather the people still bought the games!!!

Basically the people that don't care outnumber those that do care with a wide margin.

Money speaks the loudest, so vote with your money!!!
GraveKnight  +   681d ago
Entitled. Vote with your dollar. FF13 rocked. See, opinions are like......
hence the dilemma.
prototypeknuckles  +   682d ago
first off its not whining its a general complaint, and so what boo hoo they left the company because of criticism, game developers think there Hollywood anyway, so now you take the criticism someone in Hollywood gets, besides that big buissiness execs, and politicians get blasted a lot and yeah some of them leave, but a majority just keep going and don't act like babies and leave because of criticism
NYC_Gamer  +   682d ago
Its fair criticism by fans who have the right to voice their opinions
#3 (Edited 682d ago ) | Agree(12) | Disagree(5) | Report | Reply
darkride66  +   682d ago
True. Criticism is one thing. Harassment and death threats towards them and their staff is completely another. They made games because they wanted to entertain people. Because it was a passion. They funded it out of their own pockets to start. Years later people are threatening their staff with physical violence because they didn't like the ending of a game.

If you didn't need the money, would you stay in that industry?
nukeitall  +   681d ago
I'm not saying death threats (or any threats) are fine, but how many of them are actually real threats?

Point is, it is just immature behavior and it happens all the time in many other industries as well.

You are far more likely to get mugged walking down the street than a death threat ever being real.

If you make a popular product, you need thick skin. It is part of the territory.
Kratoscar2008  +   682d ago
Try again, like EA?
wishingW3L  +   682d ago
someone didn't read this:

Ray Muzyka: "I respect/revere fans, because they speak with deep, honest passion. Journalists speculating on ill-founded rumors should reassess approach."

"Good websites demand clarity and credibility lesser ones enable ill-informed individuals to make stuff up about other people."

https://twitter.com/RayMuzy...
#5 (Edited 682d ago ) | Agree(8) | Disagree(3) | Report | Reply
Outside_ofthe_Box  +   682d ago
That's Pachter for ya.
wastedcells  +   682d ago
Yep... Patcher knows how to get attention and isn't afraid to piss people off to do it. The more his videos are watched the more he gets paid in advertising royalties. He is a number cruncher first gamer seventh.
#5.1.1 (Edited 682d ago ) | Agree(4) | Disagree(0) | Report
Megaton  +   682d ago
Well, no one ever accused him of knowing what he's talking about.
Soldierone  +   682d ago
Everytime you find a game is broken, missing something, isn't up to par then you are called a whiner. Or people complain "why do gamers feel so entitled!!!!"

Gee I'm just wasting 60 dollars on a game, guess I'll just let it rape me and give me no enjoyment and shut my mouth to let future games do it right?

NO! People are sick of half arsed effort. Notice when games are GOOD no one really complains? Perhaps more developers should stop half arsing things and make GOOD GAMES!

"Here is half the game, the rest will be DLC, and all together you will get maybe 4 hours of game time. Enjoy!"
cleft5  +   682d ago
The thing is, you know about day 1 dlc before you buy a game because it's day 1 dlc. You know if a game is up to your liking because there are no shortage of reviews out there. If you do any research you can make an informed decision as to whether or not you want to buy a game. Or you can rent a game and play it all the way through and decide if you want to buy the game or not. There really isn't any shortage of ways to make and informed decision, so when gamers go out and buy a game blindly they have no one to blame but themselves.

The truth is that a lot of people steal games by illegally downloading them and then they have the nerve to complain about a game that they stole. Or you have gamers that just jump of the hate train because they are brainless. All the crying is just ruining the credibility of fan feedback. Why listen to the fans when 90% of the feedback is irrational hate comments about the game and the creators of the game.
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Soldierone  +   682d ago
The issue is finding a good complete game is rare. Then there are instances like this. First 2 games were great, then the third had mis-happening at the end. People bought it simply because the first two were great.

Look at what you posted below. Resident Evil used to be great survival horror franchise, then they went to target the more casual market. They had a fanbase that loved them, and they threw them out in the trash to go target the big COD crowd....

It's like someone being super nice, then all of a sudden taking advantage of you. You would get mad and complain. People are sick of money being a priority, not gamers, they have a right to say a game sucks. Developers don't like it? Then make a good game. period.
ignicaeli  +   681d ago
When I bought ME for PC, I though that was a great game, and in so many ways reminded me of Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic (A game that I loved, from the same company) that I had to play it ultil finishing... and than played it again, and again...

Than came ME2, still a good game, though more action oriented than the previous one. Almost all the RPG elements where stripped or dumbed down, and honestly, it played just like Gears of War (I own it also, and yes, the mechanics are quite similar in many aspects). Still, not that big of a problem, I like Action/Shooting games.

Both games had one thing in common though. The ending was good (Not perfect, but good...). Your decisions had meaning, you knew that you'd have a full crew or not in the third instalment not because some bigwig in EA/Bioware decided to kill characters for "history purposes", but due to your decisions.

And finally comes ME3, the best action of all three. A real gem of mechanics. Fast paced, sleek commands. But... a bland story... and terrible ending. I passed about a week moving around doing side missions in order to get the best of the ending (Just like ME2 it might matter). And... nothing. Than I half-heartedly played it again, doing directly to the ending, no side missions. Almost same ending... just different color...

ME3 could have been far more than it was. I do feel entitled to say this, I paid all games in full, and expected something better. And it's not an ungrounded desire, because Bioware showed me twice (ME and ME2) that they could do better.
cleft5  +   682d ago
I agree with Pachter on this one. Just look at all the the whining happening around RE6. Gamers are acting like they where entitled to a survivor horror game and since RE6 is an action game that must mean it is the worst game ever. I am so sick and tired of all the people crying over nothing and behaving like stupid children.
zeeshan  +   682d ago
So you are saying that when people share their opinion, they are whining? They should rather shut the hell up and just take whatever devs throw at them and be great full and happily hand over $60 without having an opinion about it?
cleft5  +   682d ago
Not at all, but their is a difference between expressing your opinion and crying without reason. Also, if you don't like a game then don't buy it. It isn't hard to do a little research and make an informed decision as to whether or not you want to buy a game. If you aren't sure than rent it, if you make the decision to buy it and don't like it, then calmly state why you don't like it and return the game if you can.

The problem is that people with legitimate complaints are being surround by a smaller but very vocal group of people that behave in the worse manner possible. These horrible individuals take refuge within the larger group pretending like they are just making a complaint, when they really are launching personal attacks on good people. I am talking about sexual harassment and death threats.

Just look at the Bayonetta 2 situation. Some people are upset that Bayonetta 2 is a WiiU exclusive and then you have a smaller group that sent death threats to the creator of that game.
ShaunCameron  +   681d ago
Not just that but even the upcoming DMC reboot. Gamers threatening death on Ninja Theory all because they decided to give Dante a haircut and make him somewhat less emo-looking.
FiachDubh  +   678d ago
"Not at all, but their is a difference between expressing your opinion and crying without reason. Also, if you don't like a game then don't buy it. It isn't hard to do a little research and make an informed decision as to whether or not you want to buy a game."

1. What exactly, is "crying without reason". What, the reasons you personally don't care about? So you think crying about crying, makes you more mature?

2. Not buying the product, is just one stage of consumer disapproval. Telling the company why you're not buying it, and what it will take to get one's business is another.

What you really mean, is that people should keep quiet about games they don't like, and you happen to. Because you may have to glance at it, take it personally, and then cry about it. As if you're somehow entitled to an internet, custom tailored to your fragile ego.
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urwifeminder  +   682d ago
Gen Y gamers wrecked the joint so funny overhype things then rip em a new one in tears.
#9 (Edited 682d ago ) | Agree(2) | Disagree(1) | Report | Reply
Godmars290  +   682d ago
Amazing the man calls himself an analyst, looks to and blames reaction to ME3, and wholly ignores the finical issues surrounding the Star Wars MMO.

More than anything I'm looking there as to why Bioware seems to be in meltdown mode. The money effort and especially the money that went into.
AngelicIceDiamond  +   682d ago
Thanks allot guys.
Shadowstar  +   682d ago
Do you know, a lot of people complained about the ending for A.I., but I haven't seen Spielberg stop making movies yet. What gives?

Listen, I know it sucks when a something you make isn't well-recieved, but if your skin is so thin that you can't handle criticism without quitting, you probably shouldn't be in a creative workforce. Go do accounting or garbage collection or something.
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WitWolfy  +   681d ago
wowowow so let em get this straight... If we arent happy about something the company promised us.. We are whiners??? Go fudge yourself EA. And anybody else who thinks we DIE HARD ME fans didnt have any right voicing ours frustrations towards the game.
BrianC6234  +   681d ago
I wonder how many people left gaming because of Pachter's whining? It must be a lot.
Louis_Guzman   681d ago | Offensive
Nodoze  +   681d ago
I am pretty sure it had MUCH more to do with EA and their policies. The fact that Pachter chalks it up to fan whining is a sign he knows nothing about the industry he is paid to analyze.

Pachter is a tool.
SageHonor  +   681d ago
Didnt one of the doctors disapprove this assertion?
ignicaeli  +   681d ago
Indeed one did.
Unfortunatelly, it´s becoming common practice to pin guilty onto the consumers instead of trying to better the product.
Patcher became (knowingly or not) just another tool of said practice.
ChunkyLover53  +   681d ago
I agree 100%. I've never seen a generation of gamers that felt so entitled. Every single generation has had games that weren't up to par or that let us down in one way or another, but we never saw the amount of complaining until now.

Literally every single game released will have something people complain about.
FiachDubh  +   678d ago
1. Buying a product, that was blatantly lied about, then complaining, isn't entitlement.
2. The average gamer age is 35-40. This isn't a generational thing. The new generation is more likely to defend the new greedy marketing. Why? Because older games know better. Kids will usually swallow any old crap.
3. "Entitlement" is the new fandumb buzzword. A cheap and easy way for self righteous gamers to stick up for companies who really don't give a rat's ass about them, without actually trying.
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ChunkyLover53  +   677d ago
There was nothing lied about, we got to complete a fantastic series and Mass Effect 3 was a huge improvement over Mass Effect 2 in my opinion. If you want to talk about being lied to, this generation has been filled with promises that weren't kept.

The average gamer may very well be 35-40, but I can promise you that wasn't the average age of the person whining over Mass Effect 3. It was the younger "entitled" gamer complaining. I don't know a single older gamer that disliked the ending.

Entitlement is exactly what it is, people complaining and feeling entitled, I have been gaming sine the 1980's and I've never, EVER seen so many people complain, and back in the 80's you never knew what a game had to offer, all movie and licensed based games were trash, you'd waste your allowance renting a terrible game like Ghostbusters or get a stupid dream ending like with Mario Bro's 2. Yet we didn't sign petitions or ask for refunds. Wonder why?
Tzunoy  +   681d ago
It's called "listen to the fans" or you are to blind because of your arrogance???
Godmars290  +   681d ago
Simple fact is people who have gamed for the past few years have quickly become sick and tired of new policies aimed at new gamers, policies which often effect a game's quality, and are saying as much. Meanwhile the industry, which includes "reviewers" like Pachter sympathize too much with the business side. Something which is being negatively impacted by the older gamers who by their complaining effect the opinions of new gamers.

If people like him and the rest of the industry want us to shut up, the industry either has to do or wait for us to get really tired of this BS and move on. Stop playing and stop buying games.
Xyle  +   680d ago
There is way too much emphasis on the business end instead of the actual creative end. True ME3 was great. Ending not at all. How can someone defend the ending? It was lazy and it showed. This "patcher" doesn't realize that the gamers who complained don't feel they deserved better but feel BioWare and mass effect deserved better. If a company stands behind a garbage product, then they have to expect negative feed back.
Godmars290  +   680d ago
Thing is its not just ME3's ending where laziness or cut corners in response to a deadline for the sake of stockholder profit is noticeable. Much of ME2 showed signs as well.

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