Xbox 360 ban: Microsoft rejects Motorola settlement
Microsoft has turned down a settlement offer by Motorola Mobility that would have brought an end to an extraordinarily expensive patent dispute which could ultimately outlaw sales of some Xbox consoles in the US.
(Microsoft, Xbox 360)
Care to elaborate on why Motorola are within their right?
Multiple companies including Apple, Nokia, HP, Cisco and Intel are supporting MS. Most of them if not all, hold many patents as part of FRAND, yet they see Motorola as hostile. Nobody is supporting Motorola/Google.
A 2.5% license fee for a few patents, while the competition licenses thousands for mere cents, doesn't seem fair does it! At 2.5% of an Xbox 360, you are looking at siphoning at least $5 and as much as $10 from the customer to Motorola.
This is not to confuse with MS shouldn't pay a license, they SHOULD. Rather it should be fair like Motorola pledged FRAND terms. You don't pledge something and go back on you word in the industry. That tends to anger your business partners especially if it is money invovled!
Remember RAMBUS? Yeah, how well did that work for them?
I don't know the specifics, but it was my understanding that Motorola already made their case to the ITC that the amounts they were requesting were in keeping with industry standards, and the ITC agreed when they released their initial recommendations that imports of the 360 be banned in the US (mirroring a similar decision by courts in Germany).
Obviously for two courts to make recommendations against Microsoft in this matter there's something to Motorola's claim that they're being fair even though Microsoft still continues to stamp it's feet.
@nukeitail Who cares if all of them are against them. You know why? They are all competition. IF MS wins this, then they all can start taking jabs at Motorola.
I hate Motorola, I've openly said it time and time again. I can't stand their products, but they own patents for a reason. If People don't want these issues of who owns what patent, then you need to do something about patents AS A WHOLE.
Did Motorola do something stupid to piss off MS with a high price? Probably, but its their patent. MS wants it, they can't just throw a fit and stop paying. If Motorola promised something, they should have it in writing.
I do have one question though, they keep mentioning imports. So could MS get around it by not importing their Xbox's? If so then I might have a reason to cheer for Motorola, bring jobs back here.
I don't know much about the intricate details of ITC, but it was under my impression that ITC doesn't decide on what is fair, only if it violates said patents and is grounds for banning. There is no question at this point that MS violates some of those patents especially considering they used to license it.
If you have a source for your claims, I would love to see it.
Still it doesn't change the fact that the entire industry is against Motorola, many of them also hold patents for H.264 and WiFi that this is all about. So clearly the industry is upset with Motorola/Google upending their pledge.
I don't see how Motorola pledges FRAND terms, and then having the entire industry offer thousands of patents for mere cents, yet Motorola has the audacity to ask for at least $5 for less than a handful. The kicker is that those Motorola patents are essentially from the same patent pool!
Next, we will all get a Motorola tax of 2.5% on all devices using H264 including the next Playstation, newer cell phones and even computers. If every body starts doing that, we are all screwed!
They should have settled. They payed more than $4 compared to other lawsuits.
@nuketall "In its settlement offer, Motorola Mobility has asked for a royalty of 2.25 per cent on each Xbox sale, and $0.50 per copy of Windows, that use its patented technology." 7 cents for unsold systems.
@ThanatosDMC Not 7 cents for unsold systems... 7 per cent, that's a HUGE difference.
In April, Judge David Shaw said Microsoft should be handed a cease-and-desist order on sales of Xbox 360 Slim consoles across America unless the dispute was settled. He claimed that Microsoft should also be banned from importing the console from China, and pay Motorola Mobility 7 per cent of the value of any unsold systems remaining in US stores.
It's a shame really, patents came about as a way for the small time inventor to profit from what they create, now instead of helping inventors its used by big massive corperations to diddle eachother for nickels and dimes all the while keeping the small time inventors down whilst slowing the progress of technology to a pace they can profit from. How sad :(
Wasn't Microsoft the company that sued Google to prevent them from giving android out for free, so MS could collect royalties? I guess what goes around comes around.
"At the heart of the legal war is a patented Motorola Mobility technology - called ActiveSync - that Microsoft uses across a number of devices and technologies such as Windows 7, Internet Explorer, Windows Media Player and Xbox 360 S."
ActiveSync is a Microsoft technology. Motorola phones with Android are facing a ban for not paying Microsoft for the ActiveSync tech.
Motorola is suing because of Microsoft's use of their video-compression technology in Windows and Wi-Fi and video-compression tech use in the Xbox S.
How is it bad? Microsoft overcharges their customers, they buy developers and let them die on the vine, and overall make very few games themselves. I really don't see the industry being much different if MS wasn't involved.
I'm pretty sure I enjoy halo and gears, and I also enjoyed the original xbox in the last generation more than the ps2 for a number of reasons and games that the ps2 didn't have(morrowind, knights of the old republic, jade empire, halo, indigo prophecy, etc). I don't like kinect but I also don't want to see Microsoft stop competing in the games industry as long as they wise up and tap into their older roots a bit more.
You realize none of those games were made inhouse by MS, right? So in reality those games could've just been on another system. The only thing I'm aware of is that MS pushed Bungie in the FPS direction for HALO, as Bungie was most famous for the Myth rts series (genius on MS part, btw).
@Jackson98 Are you an idiot? Microsoft overcharges its customers? What planet do you live on? How much did Sony ask for a PS3 at launch? How many times have they dropped their price since that launch price? Did they reimburse any of those people that paid $600 at launch when they dropped their price for the first time after 4 months?
How much more does a Sony Bravia tv cost over a Samsung, Sharp, or LG? How much has Sony lost in the past year? If anyone is price gouging, it's Sony. You do understand that MS is a company and for all the bashing you do against them, take a look at Sony too. Just like any company, there's good and bad. If their were no XBOX, there would be no PSN. PSN still can't hold a candle to XBL. Not a fanboy, just giving facts. Please don't bring up MS charging for XBL, because SONY charges too. Non paying customers are starting to see what they get for the money. Free play, free demos, beta testing, free movies, and game discounts all come at price. There is only so much you can give away for free. Sony and MS have to pay these companies, why shouldn't you?
M$ nearly doesn't own anything that means something to gaming. Call of Duty and Gears are 2 of the 3 strongest brands on the 360 and are 3rd Party. The 360 CoD Kids would just switch to Sony and Epic would either bow down(they already said they want to develop for Sony but not Gears) or move back to PC or even Smartphones. The only thing they own that makes money is Halo and even there > Bungie is now with ACtivision and who knows how strong the name still is with 343 Studios. Forza?No enemy for Gran Turismo - GT sells so much better and Turn10 isn't surely happy about selling so low while their quality is insane.
The ban of M$ and their console would have only affect one kind of gamers > CoD Kids cause they need to buy a PS3 now. Everything else on the 360 is 3rd Party and they just would switch completely to Sony and PC. No big impact at all cause people are addicted and just would buy an other console.
And before someone says M$ owns Rare Yeah they did put so many things out in this Gen -.-
No one except a bunch of Kids and Brand Fanboys would miss the Xbox. Cause you can get except Halo everything better elsewhere or M$ doesn't own them at all so they are free to develop for whoever they want. Its completely different with for example Sony that has so many ACTIVE 1st Party Teams that put out exclusives after exclusives.
MS infringing on a patent is one thing. Moto charging exuberant prices to MS for the license and only charging others much much less is something else.
Neither side is doing any good in this. I am still trying to figure out why internalizing the wifi on the 360 in any way infringes on a moto patent where as the external wifi was perfectly fine.
Just because a company like MS is huge doesnt mean they have to pay more for the same thing smaller companies get for less. MS should pay their fair share but what Moto is doing is straight up blackmail.
MS was paying the same as everyone else for years, then decided they didn't want to pay. THEN Motorola decided to charge them more.
This is all over the internet; why do people keep acting like Motorola just randomly charged Microsoft? If that were the case, they wouldn't even HAVE a case.
You conveniently left out that MS didn't want to continue paying unfair license fees way back when compared to other companies. Hence, breaking the FRAND part! It's all over the internet since 2010.
Just so you know, this will eventually affect all platforms including Sony and Nintendo, because they all use internal wifi. Sooner or later, these companies will have to re-license the technology for their next generation console.
@allesandro10 just because Sony's in the crapper, doesn't mean you should wish ill on a superior corporation. But, misery loves company, or something like that...
M$? Let me guess, does all that bitterness come out only in 360 articles? This "ban" will amount to nothing and Microsoft will reign supreme once again.
@Craftiii4.. is that more propaganda that's came from your arse? If the PS3 is so powerful, tell me when one of it's 1st party titles has surpassed Gears. Cheers ;)
Well, since you were talking power, I assume it would be in the graphics department, right? In that case, GOWIII and Uncharted 2 and 3 are generally considered to be the best-looking console games this generation. And Killzone 3 would get honorable mention.
I mean, we COULD dispense with everything else and only use Uncharted 2, since it's got the massive library of awards- graphical and otherwise- to fulfill your requirement all by itself.
With your argument of power, though, I could say, "Tell me when one of Microsoft's 1st party studios has surpassed MAG, Killzone, and Warhawk in player count," since you need power for that.
wow alessandro That's one of the craziest things i've yet to hear on this site. To take the Xbox from the market would be one of worst things that could happen to the gaming industry as a whole. Competition is the name of the game. Without it games would become stale with no driving force to be 'better than you competitor'. That's why we enjoy such great games on all platforms..competition.
Truth is the xbox360 is on its way out soon... after all the appeals... all the court stuff.. even if motorala wins, it wont matter. Xbox360 wont be sold anymore and microsoft profits on these next couple of years while they are still selling it while motorala tries to fight them lol. Locked in a legal battle that ends after the the 360 is done anyway.
yeh but if Motorola wins, microsoft will have to pay the fee for every xbox sold from when they stopped paying the fee, your point makes no sense, jsut because the case will be over after they stop releasing xbox 360 doesnt stop the fact microsoft is using something which after the stopped paying the fee they have no legal right to use and will there for have to pay a fee, weither its the one motorola wants them to pay is a diffrent matter alltogether
The reason MS are dragging their feet is because the ITC hasn't ruled yet. I guess MS figure that holding out every avenue has been exhausted is a reasonable course of action.
"Motorola Mobility has asked for a royalty of 2.25 per cent on each Xbox sale, and $0.50 per copy of Windows, that use its patented technology. Microsoft has rejected this offer"
it seems like a reasonalbe royalty fee to me? o_O;;
I know you guys really want to experience the next generation of consoles as soon as possible but rushing it may not be good for consumers in the long run.
they are clearly a lot smarter then u. Look at the big picture. Even if they are enfringing. Xbox 720 is coming soon with backwards compatibility. They can tie this legal thing up in the courts for years through the appeals process. By the time its over xbox360 wont be sold anymore anyway.
Why agree to give them a cut when they can keep selling it for the next couple of years without having to pay a dime.
You're forgetting that if they win the decision to ban the sales of 360's in the states then they would be forced to end this quickly... Either way you look at it microsoft will hemorage money through this and it will hurt them..
Wow I'm so shocked at this that I had too read it twice.What is MicroSoft thinking with it rejecting this settlement.It seemed like reasonable pricing for using their patents.This could hurt MS with the making of the 720 because what company will allow MS too use their patents knowing they will decide when and when not too pay you.
I'm so confuse right now I'm not even 360 owner and I'm in shock atm.
It's not smart, that's for sure. Unless they've got some rock-solid evidence that they shouldn't pay, this is only going to make things worse. By all accounts, they're in the wrong here.
And you're definitely right about this potentially hurting MS with the Nextbox. It could affect any other hardware they want to promote, too, like their new tablet.
Sony waded through a lawsuit from the makers of SOME PS3 Controller tech: Immersion Corporation, and another one from Copper Innovations Group over rumble tech, and sensory tech respectively. Sony is paying the price for both cases since, for each controller sold, they have to pay out a percentage of the cost to them.
What's more, is that both companies asked the court to stop sales of the controller from Sony AND Nintendo. So don't go around saying "the ban won't happen." It CAN and will happen if MS does not do this right.
Sony said rumble wasn't needed right? Something about it being last gen tech,, LOL. This guy works for MS now. I wonder if he has similar feelings about this.
Holy crap what is wrong with you people. Microsoft needs to bow out...micorsoft pay up. Some of the way you people think is partly why so many people get laid off in droves. Fuck anything reasonable, die corporation so you can lay everyone off so they can apply to other jobs and the fresh graduates can still work at Mcdonalds hoping their non-existent resume stacks up against the accomplished vet that happened to be in the crossfire of a patent lawsuit. Everybody infringes upon some other patent in some form or fashion. Everybody told the author that tried to stop assasins creed to give it a rest. Now a big-ol company is going after another big-ol company and it's pay up, stop the 360. Wow!
Putting gaming allegiances aside, I for one will be delighted to see M$ taken to the cleaners. They have used bully boy tactics on anyone who stood in there way for decades.....will find it satisfying to see them on the receiving end for once!
"Microsoft [...] has warned the ITC that banning Xbox 360 across the US would not serve the public interest, because it would leave the market with a choice between PlayStation 3 and Nintendo's Wii."
And what would be wrong with that? Lol.
Microsoft isn't exactly making a great case for itself here in terms of legality. "Buh-buh-but... people won't be able to play their Xboxes no more!"
I don't think that argument will stand up in court. XD
12 years ago the Xbox brand didn't even exist and the only choice consumers had was between Sony and Nintendo, unless you chose the ill fated Dreamcast.
Regardless of what anyone thinks about Microsoft, surely you can all see this would be a very bad thing. Not just because of the alarming trend it could start but it would also hinder an already ailing economy, push publishers revenues down, send devs under and ultimately hurt an industry we all love, regardless of the short term gain to Microsoft's competitors.
I don't get it If Microsoft didn't agree to Motorola's patent fees, then why did they put in the technology to begin with? If they disagreed with Motorola's patent fee, they should have developed new technology that was patent-free and then released the new model.
Motorola will undoubtedly win. Microsoft either needs to man up and cough up the dough, or release new technology that isn't patented.
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i know that, however thats not the suggestion i was replying to. I know motorola is being a bit hard on ms, but they are within their right.
Care to elaborate on why Motorola are within their right?
Multiple companies including Apple, Nokia, HP, Cisco and Intel are supporting MS. Most of them if not all, hold many patents as part of FRAND, yet they see Motorola as hostile. Nobody is supporting Motorola/Google.
A 2.5% license fee for a few patents, while the competition licenses thousands for mere cents, doesn't seem fair does it! At 2.5% of an Xbox 360, you are looking at siphoning at least $5 and as much as $10 from the customer to Motorola.
http://arstechnica.com/tech...
This is not to confuse with MS shouldn't pay a license, they SHOULD. Rather it should be fair like Motorola pledged FRAND terms. You don't pledge something and go back on you word in the industry. That tends to anger your business partners especially if it is money invovled!
Remember RAMBUS? Yeah, how well did that work for them?
Obviously for two courts to make recommendations against Microsoft in this matter there's something to Motorola's claim that they're being fair even though Microsoft still continues to stamp it's feet.
I hate Motorola, I've openly said it time and time again. I can't stand their products, but they own patents for a reason. If People don't want these issues of who owns what patent, then you need to do something about patents AS A WHOLE.
Did Motorola do something stupid to piss off MS with a high price? Probably, but its their patent. MS wants it, they can't just throw a fit and stop paying. If Motorola promised something, they should have it in writing.
I do have one question though, they keep mentioning imports. So could MS get around it by not importing their Xbox's? If so then I might have a reason to cheer for Motorola, bring jobs back here.
I don't know much about the intricate details of ITC, but it was under my impression that ITC doesn't decide on what is fair, only if it violates said patents and is grounds for banning. There is no question at this point that MS violates some of those patents especially considering they used to license it.
If you have a source for your claims, I would love to see it.
Still it doesn't change the fact that the entire industry is against Motorola, many of them also hold patents for H.264 and WiFi that this is all about. So clearly the industry is upset with Motorola/Google upending their pledge.
I don't see how Motorola pledges FRAND terms, and then having the entire industry offer thousands of patents for mere cents, yet Motorola has the audacity to ask for at least $5 for less than a handful. The kicker is that those Motorola patents are essentially from the same patent pool!
Next, we will all get a Motorola tax of 2.5% on all devices using H264 including the next Playstation, newer cell phones and even computers. If every body starts doing that, we are all screwed!
@nuketall
"In its settlement offer, Motorola Mobility has asked for a royalty of 2.25 per cent on each Xbox sale, and $0.50 per copy of Windows, that use its patented technology." 7 cents for unsold systems.
Not 7 cents for unsold systems... 7 per cent, that's a HUGE difference.
In April, Judge David Shaw said Microsoft should be handed a cease-and-desist order on sales of Xbox 360 Slim consoles across America unless the dispute was settled. He claimed that Microsoft should also be banned from importing the console from China, and pay Motorola Mobility 7 per cent of the value of any unsold systems remaining in US stores.
Then i retract my statement. I was wrong.
"At the heart of the legal war is a patented Motorola Mobility technology - called ActiveSync - that Microsoft uses across a number of devices and technologies such as Windows 7, Internet Explorer, Windows Media Player and Xbox 360 S."
ActiveSync is a Microsoft technology. Motorola phones with Android are facing a ban for not paying Microsoft for the ActiveSync tech.
Motorola is suing because of Microsoft's use of their video-compression technology in Windows and Wi-Fi and video-compression tech use in the Xbox S.
Microsoft overcharges their customers, they buy developers and let them die on the vine, and overall make very few games themselves.
I really don't see the industry being much different if MS wasn't involved.
You realize none of those games were made inhouse by MS, right? So in reality those games could've just been on another system. The only thing I'm aware of is that MS pushed Bungie in the FPS direction for HALO, as Bungie was most famous for the Myth rts series (genius on MS part, btw).
Are you an idiot? Microsoft overcharges its customers? What planet do you live on? How much did Sony ask for a PS3 at launch? How many times have they dropped their price since that launch price? Did they reimburse any of those people that paid $600 at launch when they dropped their price for the first time after 4 months?
How much more does a Sony Bravia tv cost over a Samsung, Sharp, or LG? How much has Sony lost in the past year? If anyone is price gouging, it's Sony. You do understand that MS is a company and for all the bashing you do against them, take a look at Sony too. Just like any company, there's good and bad. If their were no XBOX, there would be no PSN. PSN still can't hold a candle to XBL. Not a fanboy, just giving facts. Please don't bring up MS charging for XBL, because SONY charges too. Non paying customers are starting to see what they get for the money. Free play, free demos, beta testing, free movies, and game discounts all come at price. There is only so much you can give away for free. Sony and MS have to pay these companies, why shouldn't you?
M$ nearly doesn't own anything that means something to gaming.
Call of Duty and Gears are 2 of the 3 strongest brands on the 360 and are 3rd Party.
The 360 CoD Kids would just switch to Sony and Epic would either bow down(they already said they want to develop for Sony but not Gears) or move back to PC or even Smartphones.
The only thing they own that makes money is Halo and even there > Bungie is now with ACtivision and who knows how strong the name still is with 343 Studios.
Forza?No enemy for Gran Turismo - GT sells so much better and Turn10 isn't surely happy about selling so low while their quality is insane.
The ban of M$ and their console would have only affect one kind of gamers > CoD Kids cause they need to buy a PS3 now.
Everything else on the 360 is 3rd Party and they just would switch completely to Sony and PC.
No big impact at all cause people are addicted and just would buy an other console.
And before someone says M$ owns Rare
Yeah they did put so many things out in this Gen -.-
No one except a bunch of Kids and Brand Fanboys would miss the Xbox.
Cause you can get except Halo everything better elsewhere or M$ doesn't own them at all so they are free to develop for whoever they want.
Its completely different with for example Sony that has so many ACTIVE 1st Party Teams that put out exclusives after exclusives.
Neither side is doing any good in this. I am still trying to figure out why internalizing the wifi on the 360 in any way infringes on a moto patent where as the external wifi was perfectly fine.
Just because a company like MS is huge doesnt mean they have to pay more for the same thing smaller companies get for less. MS should pay their fair share but what Moto is doing is straight up blackmail.
This is all over the internet; why do people keep acting like Motorola just randomly charged Microsoft? If that were the case, they wouldn't even HAVE a case.
You conveniently left out that MS didn't want to continue paying unfair license fees way back when compared to other companies. Hence, breaking the FRAND part! It's all over the internet since 2010.
http://gamer.blorge.com/201...
Just so you know, this will eventually affect all platforms including Sony and Nintendo, because they all use internal wifi. Sooner or later, these companies will have to re-license the technology for their next generation console.
I lol'd.
This "ban" will amount to nothing and Microsoft will reign supreme once again.
If the PS3 is so powerful, tell me when one of it's 1st party titles has surpassed Gears. Cheers ;)
Well, since you were talking power, I assume it would be in the graphics department, right? In that case, GOWIII and Uncharted 2 and 3 are generally considered to be the best-looking console games this generation. And Killzone 3 would get honorable mention.
I mean, we COULD dispense with everything else and only use Uncharted 2, since it's got the massive library of awards- graphical and otherwise- to fulfill your requirement all by itself.
With your argument of power, though, I could say, "Tell me when one of Microsoft's 1st party studios has surpassed MAG, Killzone, and Warhawk in player count," since you need power for that.
... but what game would you quote?
That's one of the craziest things i've yet to hear on this site. To take the Xbox from the market would be one of worst things that could happen to the gaming industry as a whole. Competition is the name of the game. Without it games would become stale with no driving force to be 'better than you competitor'. That's why we enjoy such great games on all platforms..competition.
Both sides lawyers are on retainer anyway.
OT
So "if" they have to pull 360s off the shelf, I wonder if they would re-release the older 360 or push for the new 720 out a lot sooner?
it seems like a reasonalbe royalty fee to me? o_O;;
with the amount they receive windows OS should cost 99c
do u realize how much they make from xbox live? online play should be free.
my opinion-wise, the royalty fee being asked seems reasonable. i use to pay 8% royalty fee for a franchise. 2.25% seems like a piece of cupcake.
Nobody would want it, if this carries on, alot of people will move away from MS.
I'm amazed the 720 is coming out 2013 Winter
The PS4 is coming is coming 2013 spring.
Should be a good fight.
MS is CLEARLY infringing on Motorolas patents. Now, I don't know if they are asking too much money, but the longer this takes, the worse it will get.
Why agree to give them a cut when they can keep selling it for the next couple of years without having to pay a dime.
And in the end, Microsoft may even be ordered to reimburse Motorola's legal fees.
Besides.. a company like microsoft probably has its lawyers on retainer anyway.
I'm so confuse right now I'm not even 360 owner and I'm in shock atm.
And you're definitely right about this potentially hurting MS with the Nextbox. It could affect any other hardware they want to promote, too, like their new tablet.
Sony waded through a lawsuit from the makers of SOME PS3 Controller tech: Immersion Corporation, and another one from Copper Innovations Group over rumble tech, and sensory tech respectively. Sony is paying the price for both cases since, for each controller sold, they have to pay out a percentage of the cost to them.
What's more, is that both companies asked the court to stop sales of the controller from Sony AND Nintendo. So don't go around saying "the ban won't happen." It CAN and will happen if MS does not do this right.
Sources: (#1 on Google) http://www.computerandvideo...
"Sony lawsuit was a reason why the original Sixaxis did not have rumble capabilities."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wik...
http://www.1up.com/news/son...
And what would be wrong with that? Lol.
Microsoft isn't exactly making a great case for itself here in terms of legality. "Buh-buh-but... people won't be able to play their Xboxes no more!"
I don't think that argument will stand up in court. XD
If Microsoft didn't agree to Motorola's patent fees, then why did they put in the technology to begin with? If they disagreed with Motorola's patent fee, they should have developed new technology that was patent-free and then released the new model.
Motorola will undoubtedly win. Microsoft either needs to man up and cough up the dough, or release new technology that isn't patented.
I don't see the X-Box 360 getting banned.