Will Xbox One’s eSRAM be the Death of the Console?

Game Druid:

Why is the eSRAM becoming a target for the Xbox One? Is this going to cause the death of the console? One thing is certain that the Xbox One’s eSRAM is no where close to the unified architecture of the PS4. We take a quick look through why this is being made out to be an issue.

[GamersHeaven]

Haha what?

[Angels3785]

Just something Ive noticed a lot of people doing on the net: you cannot combine the memory bandwidth of esram and the 8gb of ddr3 in the xbox one.

It simply doesn't work that way. When you use a unified memory pool such as that, the system moves information stored in each pool INDIVIDUALLY because they are NOT the same type of memory modules, therefore they do not read or write or send information in unison. It goes through one THEN the other if utilized. The system need to write to each modual and the programmer needs to adapt the software to go through the 8gb ddr3 ram and THEN the esram by creating 32 mb packages (the amount of space of the esram) .

Adding them together would be like taking the times of two different fast runners running a half mile and combining their times as the fastest mile time in the world. They would beat out a man running a mile by himself because you wouldn't be taking into account certain variables such as him getting tired...or the fact that two of these modules don't work together to suggest combining bandwidth....

On a side not this is not the end of xbox one or the ability of it to produce good looking games, but you simply cannot move weaker hardware through drivers/sdk's to the level of stronger hardware.... in computers suggesting "raw vs specialized" power of a machine is a joke....the only specialization comes from optimization of the hardware you have.

[Eonjay]

Agreed. Also, the GPUs are spawned from the same series of GPU meaning that the APIs have to translate instructions in a similar fashion. Besides tweaks made to the GPU they pretty much function in the same exact manner. One just has more resources at it disposable and can therefore process those instruction faster. Due to the similarities of the GPUs we can say without a doubt that the PS4 will outperform the Xbox One.

I don't see any other likely conclusion.

[Hicken]

At first, I was wondering how you could possibly have ANY disagrees.

... Then I looked further down in the comments. Still spinning. Surprised they can type without frequently falling out of their chairs.

ESRAM does not work the way they keep saying it does, but nor will it be the death of the XB1. It'll just prevent it, for the duration of its life, from being able to catch up to the PS4. Microsoft can release all the duvets and dev tools they want; the only way the XB1 will catch the PS4 is if Sony, for some unfathomable rain, stopped doing the same.

And even then, it might not be enough, as devs will still get better on their own.

But I guess fanboys gotta fanboy. And that means the constant warping and/or rejecting of reality.

[mediate-this]

Google is fun to use bro, all i know is i have all three systems to experience all exclusives. Ps4 the strongest, xbox second wii u third, but they all have good games and will get crazier games in the future.

This regurgitated xbox one is weaker crap is just anoying.

[KingDadXVI]

You clearly have zero understanding of computer engineering or architecture.

You can add the speed or the two pools of ram together if you are drawing different information from them at the same time.

The issue at hand with the Esram is simply that it is more complex for the developer to determine which data is stored in which pool. By optimizing the code you can put different data into the different pools depending on the requirements of that data. Data that requires high bandwidth and low latency goes into the Esram, while data that requires less bandwidth goes into the DDR3.

This is a difficult job for a developer if they do not have tools that assist them in selecting which data should go where and when. By releasing an updated SDK which will make these choices more intuitive for the developer they can optimize the games faster and not have to say, "Well if we had another 3 months we could get 1080p out of the game but the launch is tomorrow so 720p it is."

Bolcato explains it in his answer to this question from GamingBolt:

"Will the process become easier over time as understanding of the hardware improves? “Definitely, yeah. They are releasing a new SDK that’s much faster and we will be comfortably running at 1080p on Xbox One. We were worried six months ago and we are not anymore, it’s got better and they are quite comparable machines."

This is really all great news for the Xbox One. As many have been saying once they developers and MS get things optimized these resolution issues will fade into the background. People won't be talking about this in a year.

The really encouraging news is that we are only 3 months into the launch and it looks like these issues are being dealt with in a much faster way than the mess we had with the PS3 optimization.

[Angels3785]

@KingDadXVI

You just proved my point by saying

"By optimizing the code you can put DIFFERENT data into the DIFFERENT pools depending on the requirements of that data."

I highlighted the key words for you.

when you run two separate processes through DIFFERENT modules doing DIFFERENT tasks their speeds do NOT get combined because they are NOT running in unison, they are running SEPARATELY doing DIFFERENT things.

Lets say the Esram is running animations (which in themselves are smaller files but require higher latency for quicker changes) and the ddr3 Ram is running textures through its memory pool (because textures require MORE memory space) here is where the combining bandwidth doesn't work

lets say to put out HIGH resolution textures you need 170gb/s..... but the ddr3 ram usues 131gb/s you cannot break up the texture pak and have part of it run through the Esram and the other part run though the ddr3.....because these modules are different when recognized by the system.....in themselves the architecture of the memory between DDR3 and Esram are DIFFERENT requiring different optimization, different coding, and different uses.

At this point you've hit the ceiling of what you are capable of...and the only other options are gpu and cpu optimization.

THEREFORE combining speeds and transfer rate is called THEORETICAL...because real world use is not practical or DNE.

Learn to read more carefully instead of proving my point within the first sentence of your reply.

Just a heads up.....just because you read an article doesn't make you an expert and give you the ability to claim someones wrong.

in fact your argument is so weak because EVERYTHING in a computer is drawing DIFFERENT information at the same time by that logic you can say that the PS4 runs with nearly 10,000,000 gb/s (gpu, cpu, ram, secondary cpu and secondary ram speeds and bandwidth) We BOTH know thats not true....all those components are again doing Different processes.....some not even relevant to gaming!

Been out of school for 4 years with a major in computer science.

[truefan1]

As I have said over and over again, no one cares about these articles except the 6% of hardcore internet gamers. In the next 3 years people will see Titanfall, Quantum Break, Halo 2, Halo 5, and then Gears of War. That is what people will pay attention to, THE GAMES. No denying the ps4 is more powerful, but I love the multi dimentional aspect of the XB1 and it plays games just as well. I guess this hardware debate is something ps4 fans hold on to, because ps4 is losing the battle that counts, the games. PS don't bring up sales playstation is a worldwide brand as it is in its 4th generation, compared to the xbox in it's 3rd generation. I say all that to say this, none of these stupid ps4 is more powerful articles really matter that much. Price and worldwide brand recognition is why ps4 is selling so well, if you don't believe price persuaded a lot of people you are a fool. The reason these articles keep coming up, is because there have been a ton of articles highlighting how XB1 is bringing the games and Sony is keeping it's customers waiting and waiting. It seems every good news XB1 article is followed by a ps4 is more powerful article. Or when there is some bad news about ps4, like how it was erasing games, a ps4 is more powerful article will pop up as well lol. Anything to sweep the ps4 problems under the rug. Maybe it's just the pathetic people on this site.

[denawayne]

@Angel - all KingDadXVI is saying is that an updated SDK will make the Xbox One utilize the RAM in a more efficient way. Like getting 20 miles to the gallon on a car that has the same size engine as a car 20 years ago that could only get 10 miles to the gallon.

[Angels3785]

@denawayne

I agree with that part of his argument....Its the initial sentence claim that is incorrect.

Heck if he read my first comment I basically agreed with that aspect:

"On a side not this is not the end of xbox one or the ability of it to produce good looking games, but you simply cannot move weaker hardware through drivers/sdk's to the level of stronger hardware.... in computers suggesting "raw vs specialized" power of a machine is a joke....the only specialization comes from optimization of the hardware you have."

I just said even through dev tool updates it wont become more capable than a system with MORE powerful hardware.....I NEVER said it wouldn't improve........as that is not the case.

My gaming pc has update to video card drivers every month almost...and it is continually improving performance....but it can only do so much...its not going to change my gtx680 to a gtx 690 (not saying the gap between consoles is that wide its just an example.....

[KingDadXVI]

@Angels "You just proved my point by saying"

"It goes through one THEN the other if utilized"

Not sure who told you that but they are wrong. You do not have to send data to the DDR3 to get it to the Esram or vice versa. SMH, that is the most idiotic thing that I have ever heard. The Esram and Dram have separate channels to the GPU.

"lets say to put out HIGH resolution textures you need 170gb/s..... but the ddr3 ram usues 131gb/s you cannot break up the texture pak and have part of it run through the Esram and the other part run though the ddr3..... "

Quite comical and more evidence that your school years were wasted. I have 7 years in computer engineering and been at it since the 386 days.

Who said you have to break up the textures? I certainly did not. What I said was that by optimizing you put latency/bandwidth sensitive data into the Esram and your larger less latency sensitive data into your DDR3 ram. What I also said was that it was difficult without optimized drivers and SDKs for developers to determine what to put into those pools.

If I am sending and receiving 68Gbps data between the DDR3 and GPU while at the SAME TIME sending and receiving 204Gbps between the Esram and the GPU then total bandwidth to the GPU is 272 Gbps.

Sorry, it is that simple.

By your twisted logic you can't add the individual data pipes into each block of ram either not to mention the individual memory modules. How do you think that you actually calculate the bandwidth of a block of memory? You take the number of bits per module and add them up. For example if you have DDR3 you can have a four 64 bit channels giving you a total of 256 bits. Your logic apparently does not allow that because you are accessing 4 different modules.

I don't need to read better but you should get a refund from the school you went to.

[WrAiTh Sp3cTr3]

Yes you can...
http://www.eurogamer.net/ar...

[Angels3785]

@KingDadXVI

I think this is stemming from a misinterpretation of what I mean't in my very first post

you quoted me saying:

"It goes through one THEN the other if utilized"

Notice the keyword "IF" as in IF this route of other possible routes is taken...not saying it is the sole possibility.

as for the second part...I never said that you said to break up textures...I was merely providing an example to make the next point.

also I agree that SDK's/ driver optimizations can definitely improve performance.....I do it every month practically for a new Nvidia driver.

I never said there is only one channel for the ddr3 and the esram, you assumed that...because you're right that is idiotic and very incorrect.

The last point is a bit more...based on perspective.

Yes that is how you measure bandwidth of Memory modules, but again....ddr3 and esram are NOT the same.

I guess it more of a agree to disagree moment on this part...which happens:)

Its kind of technicality of the way the system works

@WrAiTh Sp3cTr3

Microsoft is the only one to state that (because they will use every advantage it is a competative business after all bigger numbers=better) every other "professional" not talking about neogaf people....know that is not the case

its more of....a technicality....thats why its theoretical.

even microsoft in the VERY article you posted states "THEORETICAL"

[jebabcock]

@truefan... What new games has ms brought since launch? Every multiplatform Game runs and looks better on ps4.. MS is doing so much better that you could only list 5 Games NONE of which are releasing anytime soon and two are halo games... one a remake... All i can say is wow..

[UncleGermrod]

Well said. What people need to understand is that it is not entirely impossible for many of the moderately demanding games to hit 1080/60 on x1...just that devs need time to figure out clever work-arounds to do so. Of course, not all devs have the resources to this, and at the moment it seems many of the early titles have suffered this fate.

At the end of the day, all you can really ask for at this point is that x1 gradually begins to match the ps4's performance more frequently. It will not always happen, as some of the more demanding titles will likely have to sacrifice frame rate and/or resolution in order to maintain parity in other areas (would we really rather have had CoD ghosts running at 1080 on the x1, but with less particle effects or lower AA??).

Speaking of ghosts, that is one title I really believe could have been rendered in 1080 on x1 had the time, resources, and experience been there. That's precisely the problem, ps4 is more powerful and yet easier to develop for...old news, no?

I think where the x1 will really be able to shine is with it's own exclusives, where hopefully the amount of focus will allow for very pretty games that can still "wow" us and be rendered at higher resolutions.

[Prime157]

Interesting. I like the way you explained it. I only know a little about esram, and where I drew my biggest conclusion about it is that ibm has that 128mb esram computer to have the similar returns.

No one ever talks about what you said, about each having their own cycle, everyone just adds them together and says it's better on paper.

I love the tech stuff, and I know x1 will perform better, but xbox is learning the same problem Sony just learned with the ps3.

Maybe ms will stop forcing the market? Or is that just wishful thinking?

[Giul_Xainx]

(A city bus backs up behind you with a sign that reads out what I am about to say.)

What about the cloud?

/gir

[neoMAXMLC]

@truefan
" PS don't bring up sales playstation is a worldwide brand as it is in its 4th generation, compared to the xbox in it's 3rd generation."

Nintendo is on their 6th generation. Your point?

Oh, and that last line of yours is pretty ironic.

[assdan]

I'm not a tech analyst in any way, but I smelled a massive amount of bs when major nelson went on and said that. If that's how it worked, sony should have just put in a megabyte of ram with a bandwidth of 1000mb/s. The bandwidth of this system is it's major bottleneck. No matter how well they are able to use that esram, it will never be able to catch up to Sony's brute force with the gddr5. I think this console would have been better off if they cloccked the ddr3 significantly higher and left the eSRAM out. Would it be weaker? yes. But they would probably been able to sell it at the same price or less than the ps4.

[Ju]

Of course you can read/write from two sources at the same time on the XO and of course this means those are not the exact same data. But even if, it will still lag behind the PS4. It is almost a requirement if they ever want to come close. The tools need an upgrade because so far those are lagging behind big time - what is surprising is that Sony has the better VS integration than MS who actually builds VS and given the track record with the 360 you'd expect this to be quite the opposite.

And while MS is trying to figure out how to get their sh!t under control...Sony is adding GPGPU support to their SDK (gpu ray casting, physics, for example). FYI.

[mewhy32]

I agree. You cant combine the two bandwidths. The ESRAM is tiny. As many devs are finally openly complaining that it's too small to proberply do 1080p 60fps games. The DDR3 is a factor in this as well. ms should have bit the bullet and put better pool of high speed ram on the board or at least put a bigger pool of this ESRAM on the GPU. But as it stands the tiny ESRAM and weaker GPU of the bone make it vastly inferior to the PS4's GDDR5 and massive GPU.

[Cuzzo63]

All the tweaks and firmware will not add extra gpu cores, better fill rates or shader output. It's more than jus ram. Ps4 has the better gpu period lol. Reality is hard to realize i see for some. A dream is just a dream

[dedicatedtogamers]

Won't be the death. It'll simply hold it back. Nothing more; nothing less.

[Bigpappy]

Nope when optimized, it will improve bandwidth.

I am not going to say any more than that right now. The update an soon to be released games will speak for themselves.

[Eonjay]

@Bigpappy...

You cant really improve bandwidth without bumping up the clock speed but you can find wayz to better manage how that bandwidth is utilized. Expect everyone to make changes to their SDK throughout the generation. The longterm question is how Microsoft will address future memory requirements as artis5 seek to add more to each frame.

Things like tress effects are whats really holding back X1 versions of games due to the large memory requirements and the need to snyc that to frames. Such effect have even been shown to slow down the PS4. So in the end you either have to Micromanage your memory or you have to find methods that use less memory period.

[MRMagoo123]

@bigpappy

The exact same thing that happens when PS4 is more optimised and PC is more optimised, the gap wont get any smaller , it will actually get bigger as time goes on, no point in arguing with you tho because its like explaining physics to a cow.

[oODEADPOOLOo]

http://captjc.files.wordpre...

[UncleGermrod]

To me, it is a full-blown joke for anyone to say the xbox one is dead, or will die. Regardless of where they go with price, I think it is clear at this point that xbox is alive an well. The major disappointment here is that MS really came such a long way last generation, only to seemingly hand back the lead to sony this time.

The console should be fine, but it is up to MS how aggressive they want to be in trying to match sony. There is a lot of time to go, and MS seems to be getting their s*** together now.

I doubt the console will ever surpass ps4, especially considering japan. At the same time, I do not think the number would be any thing like the ps2/xbox era. Just because sony has been doing so great doesn't necessarily mean that the xbox brand is going anywhere...it just means they need to be really smart about things from here on out, and do whatever they can to keep their hands around as much market share as possible.

EDIT: sorry, i seem to have placed this reply under the wrong comment.

[Sammy777]

firstly it is a blog post not a full fledged site. Weak Hardware would definitely impact sales but won't kill the Xbox One . There are millions of Xbox One fans in USA who would atleast keep the console alive. Europe and Asia were always lost causes and Ms shouldn't waste money concentrating on those regions

[CryofSilence]

Death of the console is a rather premature jump of the gun. At worst, it will be a handicap. It will likely be a boon for the console, given its decidedly weaker GPU.

[ABizzel1]

Please just stop it. The eSRAM is one of the benefits the box has, the problem is the small amount, but in no way is that going to "kill the XBO".

[MRMagoo123]

Its a benefit for things that arent games related i guess but for games its a bottleneck along with the gpu.

[ABizzel1]

@MrMagoo123

No it's not. The eSRAM as I sad is a benefit to the XBO, the problem is the amount is so small. The GPU can't be a bottleneck, it's just not as powerful as the PS4.

The main problem is XBO's DDR3 is far slower than the PS4's GDDR5, and the small amount of eSRAM can't make up the difference except in a couple of task at a time, while everything on the PS4 is rendered quickly.

The XBO will be just fine, it's just not the most powerful console on the market, and eSRAM is not going to kill it. It's stupid to think that. MS focus on being an AIO device is a reason they'll suffer, have a weaker console that cost $100 more is a reason they'll suffer, inferior 3rd party games is a reason they'll suffer, but a piece of RAM isn't.

The XBO died because of a piece of RAM. Please just stop it.

[lifeisgamesok]

The creators of DirectX know what they are doing if they say the modules can be added i believe them

They are the engineers not N4G

Anyone wanna post a degree?

[Cuzzo63]

Can they add extra fill rates, gpu cores, shaders? It's more than just the ram. No need for a degree, ITS ON WIKI. LMAO

[DoubleM70]

Exactly!

[Kayant]

Lmaooooooo are you seriously quoting Panello there. Looool damn the same guy that was proven wrong, completely dodged the question about multi-plat differences and has yet to go back to gaf to apologise like he said he would if he was wrong.

Right it also begs the question as to why they are so far out with their dev tools compared to PS4 since when these consoles where announced.

[Angels3785]

Its not the death of the console as optimization and familiarity are always present over time, but it will not catch up to stronger hardware. Its just not possible.

[jhoward585]

The Bottom line is that the Xbox One’s eSRAM will NOT be the death of the console.

I really hope so...cause I wasn't expecting the x1 to run in to so many problems early on.

The gap between the x1 and the ps4 are huge. so i'd really like to see what MS is going to do with the x1 this GEN.

[idontcare]

Huge?? I haven't seen one game that looks a lot better on PS4. And even if ... i would always choose xb over ps because i think the whole system is more thought out and i like the games more.

[No_Limit]

Same here, I have both systems ATM and to tell you the truth, I think I might just Craiglist my PS4 for the time being because there are no games that interest me in the near future until Naughty Dog and Santa Monica release their AAA games.

And there is nothing on the PS4 now that scream a massive difference just like how the original Xbox and PS2 situation (sure the Xbox looks a bit better but the PS2 looks 95% close enough and has massive games advantages).

Right now I am loving my XB1 and playing the living heck out of Dead Rising, Killeer Instinct and patiently awaiting the release of Titanfall.

[Godmars290]

Wont the question be if the XB1 does fall behind, cannot survive for five or even ten year, if MS will launch a new console? Will the brand actually be strong enough to sell anymore and how what could be an otherwise early/premature release as far as the industry is concerned effect it?

People are already looking at Nintendo for a WiiU successor just for them to catch up. So in another two to three years the overall benchmark might be changed again?

[theWB27]

No.

The X1 is not selling bad. Last time figures were released it was selling at a record pace.

At the same time there happens to be another machine selling better.

That doesn't make the X1 a failure. The Xbox brand isn't damaged even after the RROD AND the DRM fiasco. Why would coming in second place be bad?

Nintendo is in a WHOLE different place. They released their first HD console which happened to be slightly more powerful than machines that released 6+ years earlier. They're behind in their online infrastructure and have basically 0 major 3rd party support.

Xbox is ok. Live rakes in money....360 has been profitable for years (RROD messes with those numbers) each X1 is sold at break even or profit. There's nothing about the X1 that indicates it won't be able to survive the full of this gen.

[Godmars290]

Not talking about how the XB1 is doing *now* but how it may be doing in six months. A year. If within a year MS releases a new version which is practically going to cripple it further, make it more inclined towards the DRM version which put them into the position they're in now, while keeping the Kinect. Another part of the mess.

There's no real point in arguing XBL because for most of its existence its been nothing but free money for MS and the only counter balance for all of the losses the division has suffered since the first Xbox.

[Ron_Danger]

@WB

"The X1 is not selling bad. Last time figures were released it was selling at a record pace. "

Record pace?! As what?! The fast selling runner up?

[Sammy777]

@theWB27

The Xbox One isn't selling well at all outside USA. November and December saw diehards uptaking the console. If you look at european numbers , it is disastrous for Xb1. Barely any game is being seen on Euro charts from January onwards. It was a big blunder for Ms to launch with an overpriced and underowered console. No esram won't kill Xbox One but could end up losing most its marketshare to Ps4

@below
please look at the weekly charts on neogaf to get an idea
http://www.neogaf.com/forum... Xbox One version of tomb raider failed to even chart in top 10 at most places let alone sell as well as ps4 version for reference and i know xb1 launched to 9 euro regions only

[theWB27]

Disastrous...ok ; )..how disastrous are these numbers?

[Bigpappy]

You were doing fine until you use tomb raider as evidence that X1is not selling well. It is the ps4 finesse who got excited and bout that remake at full price because it was said to be 60fps. Has nothing to do with Xbox selling or not.

[jackanderson1985]

not saying the PS4 isn't selling better but you realize it's only estimated at most 80000 copies of the new tomb raider were sold in europe yeah? and that's combined xbox and playstation sales....

[MorePowerOfGreen]

Well that was fast damage control. Yeah something that will help unlock its full potential will be its death LOL.

[Angels3785]

ok green, if you say so.

[deadfrag]

Green is still waiting for Microsoft to show the hidden Gpu that he so much defended before the release of the Xboxone,i think he still thinks its there hidden.

[LeCreuset]

@MorePowerOfGreen

Yes, it was fast damage control, and if you had bother to read the article, you would know why.

[DoesUs]

LMFAO! You STILL think there's hidden magic? It is you after all! For anyone remotely interested, Mistexmedia has an account on N4G call iMad. Tells you all you need to know really.

For the gazillionth time, not that you need to know, but there is no, I repeat there is no hidden secrets in the XB1. End of story.

[Automatic79]

Unfortunately everyone above who says the system is behind are the same who were defending ps3 when clearly multiplatform games were behind to Xbox 360. Now that there is a so called small advantage on ps4 with just 3 months in the cycle the same gamers are bandwagon jumping declaring the Xbox one falling behind. Suddenly it's okay to say there were no games that fell behind because PlayStation was the system of choice. The hypocrisy that goes on with these fan boys.

Note why not wait 2 years into gaming cycle allowing developers to wrap there heads around the systems strength and weaknesses before we declare anyone falling behind.

[Outside_ofthe_Box]

***"Note why not wait 2 years into gaming cycle allowing developers to wrap there heads around the systems strength and weaknesses before we declare anyone falling behind."***

Did people do that last gen though? You complain about how people aren't taking the same stance as they did last gen is why I'm asking you the question. The hypocrisy goes both ways which is why it's pointless to bring it up unless you're gonna highlight the hypocrisy of both sides.

[Automatic79]

Hypocrisy comes in all packages there is no need to go into details. Overall point I am making is that it took ps3 several years before developers were able to figure the cell processor PlayStation fans were defending for years and eventually it got on equal footing. Now the same fans are bandwagon jumping because the shoe is on another foot they are spiraling hate trails via forums and blogs with just 3 months in new generation. Eventually Xbox one and PS4 will showcase graphics above and beyond what we see now. Its all one big fan boy pissing contest. All I say is give developers time.

[insomnium2]

@michael

PS3 was way more poerfull than X360 on paper so these situation cannot be compared.

We wait 2 years and PS4 is even further ahead in power if anything. When we waited 2 years with PS3 in the sh*tstorm everyone realized that PS3 indeed was/is more powerfull than X360.

This time the archetecture is pretty much the same. There's WAY less optimization to be done with PS4 as there was with PS3. This is not even up for debate really or atleast debating this would be as smart as running repeatedly against a brick wall waiting for it to collapse.

[Outside_ofthe_Box]

Aren't both the PS4 and XB1 using architecture that is similar to the PC though? Which would mean both aren't that difficult to develop for to begin with. So I don't know how much more time devs would need to get familiar with XB1 if they aren't familiar already.

But anyway what I'm saying is of course fanboys are going to jump on the bandwagon now that shoe is the other foot it's what fanboys do. In the end it doesn't matter in the bigger scheme of things. If devs never end up making XB1 and PS4 titles equal would that stop you or anyone from purchasing mutiplats on XB1?, No. Just like all the "90% of multiplat games run better on 360" comments didn't stop people from buying multiplats on PS3. All this "x is better on y system" nonsense is only one of many fanboy ammo used in the imaginary console war. And as we see the ammo can flip flop from one gen to the next as it suits their agenda.

[Automatic79]

I agree with your second paragraph. The first paragraph not so much. In two years time you will see games that show case much more graphical fidelity then what you see now. Developers are still trying to figure out both systems since most reports are accurate about frame rate, Or online play, bugs, etc.

[sAVAge_bEaST]

"Those so quick to yell "hypocrite", are often the biggest offenders."

[Why o why]

100

[Automatic79]

No disrespect but look at my history very rare you'll here me knock Company A or B as much as some of your so called offenders.

[AutoCad]

lol damage control?

[Tedakin]

I'm pretty tired of articles discussing power. It's gotten to the point of being ridiculous. We get it. But ultimately, no matter what fanboys want to yell and scream, games make or break a system, not graphics. Wii U crushed everything and the games looked like crap. PS2 crushed everything and it was the weakest that generation as well. I don't believe for a second the Xbox One will outsell the PS4, but it will be hugely successful in its own right. Now click the disagree button, you fanboys.

[deadfrag]

Indeed,for gamers games will be the main sale point for the two systems thats certain.

[shivvy24]

Exactly, I'm excited for the Xbox exclusives even though I have a ps4! I'm actually thinking of getting one soon

[LeCreuset]

"I'm pretty tired of articles discussing power. It's gotten to the point of being ridiculous. We get it. But ultimately, no matter what fanboys want to yell and scream, games make or break a system, not graphics."

He complained, having failed to read the article which makes the same point. The ironic thing is, the article itself just ignores the specs, in the end, making ridiculous apples and oranges comparisons to past systems, and assuming that MS will be able to do some magic trick to achieve parity with the PS4's graphics. That's why we continue to see articles pointing out the disparity.

[No_Limit]

Nice post man. It is all about the games that is why I pull out the $$ and bought the XB1 to have a chance to play Dead Rising 3, Killer Instinct, and Titanfall in a month. I am just sick of these articles as fanboys will never change and most of them are on the PS side; thus, 90% of the comments are repeating the same propaganda against the Xbox and MS.

For those with XB1 and are getting Titanfall, see you in March on Live. I might also buy inFamous:SS if the reviews are good just so I can finally wipe the dust from my PS4. :-)

[CPTN MITCHELL]

if it does is ms fault for making a media console first and not a gaming console

[JamieL]

So what if it only does everything, wasn't a problem for ya last gen.

[corvusmd]

The eSRAM will not be the death of the console, I do however admit that I wish they made the eSRAM bigger so that it could move bigger packets at a faster speed. That being said, the gap between PS4 and XB1 really isn't as big as many wish to make it out to be. PS4 will not go above 1080p/60fps, and XB1 isn't exactly far away from doing that consistently. A driver here, better engine there, and devs getting more familiar with the system will all lend themselves to closing the gap rather soon. THAT BEING SAID, even when we know that there is spec advantage in the PS4 favor, watching side by side videos of the games never seems to yield dramatic results. BF4 has better specs on PS4, yet when you look at the screenshots they are all muddied down and look blurry and bland with no vibrant colors, it's like they skimped on textures in order to have a higher res (this is all minor in that both games look great...but that's kinda the point it's all nitpicking). Ryse is the best looking game this gen so far according to some, and even if not, you must admit it's at least top 3, yet it's 900p/30fps. In 99% of these cases, if no one told you, which is which and what the specs were...you couldn't tell.

[deadfrag]

Well the gap is actually among 40% in favour of the PS4,but that does not mean that the actuall gamer "not the fanboy!"will not end up buying the Xboxone and the Wii U atleast for the great exclusives that i hope Microsoft and Nintendo will release,just like Sony will.The choise and luck is up with the people that can affort and want to pick the three console systems.For those that cant affort the three i guess they will have to pick the one they most like and just enjoy.

[imt558]

Quote :

Ryse is the best looking game this gen so far according to some, and even if not, you must admit it's at least top 3, yet it's 900p/30fps.

According to Star Citizen developer which game use CryEngine 3, right?

Of course he will say something like that.

[Tedakin]

The 1080p 60fps argument shouldn't even exist at this point since neither console is reaching it in the near future. Xbox has what, 1 major exclusive release out now, or coming soon that is both 1080p and 60? That's Forza. PS4 has I think 1 game as well. Tomb Raider is definitely not a solid 60, and The Order, Drive Club and Infamous are all 30fps. NBA2k, Fifa and Madden are 1080p 60fps on both. The producer of Dying Light claims he's "Targeting 1080p 60fps on both systems." We'll see.

[Sammy777]

what? you are joking right?
there are 9 xbox one titles which are running below 1080p as opposed to just 1 on ps4.

cod for instance runs at 720p 30 fps with the new patch on xbox one as opposed to 1080p,50-60 fps on ps4

http://www.insiderp.com/lis...

PS4:

Battlefield 4 : 900p , 60 fps

Xbox One:

Killer Instinct : 720p ,60 fps

COD : Ghosts : 720p ,60 fps

RYSE : 900p , 30 fps

Battlefield 4 : 720p , 60fps

Titanfall : 720p , fps unknown at this point

Assassin's Creed 4 : 900p , 30 fps

Dead Rising 3 : 720p , 30 fps

Thief is also 900p on Xbox One and so is mgs5. And forza 5 was downgraded to reach 1080p 60 fps. Anything that is 1080p on Xbox One could run at 1080p on PS4 but not vice versa. If you are having a weaker hardware then no optimization can help it achieve parity with the more powerful platform . The ps4 games are focusing on graphics at 1080p so the frames don't matter to sony right now. 5 xbox one titles are running at 720p right now

@below

There are more games on PS4 that support 1080p,60fps like Resogun for instance, TR, COD etc. With the graphics that FM5 has, it could have run at 900p,60fps on ps3/x360 as well. Titanffall runs at 720p only. When a game runs at that resolution that anything can hit 60fps. 720p resolution has like 40% pixels as 1080 and with a 720p rez,anything can run at 60fps

[Tedakin]

Ummm.. I said what games are 1080p 60fps. That's the bench mark everyone throws out. I wasn't slandering the PS4. I was stating neither console is hitting it. And the framerate in Titanfall is 60fps. Confirmed. It was definitely a solid 60 in the Alpha build. ;)

[76erz24]

I think you got it backwards about Titanfall. 60fps was confirmed, the resolution has yet to be.

[imt558]

Titanfall alpha was 720p on Xbone and resolution will not change. Textures probably.

[webeblazing]

He said neither consoles are hitting 1080p 60fps

[DJ]

Not the death, it's just going to make development harder and hold back the resolution and framerate of its titles. But the games themselves will be fine.

[_FantasmA_]

I won't miss you Xbox.

[Necro_559]

Your not a gamer then. I wish people like you would just get out of the community.

[Ultimax]

Not a gamer for not playing HALO or Gears of war !?
Now that's funny xD
Cry me a river please as if i care for this piece of $hit brand , This brand as a whole is useless in term of gaming experiences and it brings to us the worse to the gaming industry , It brings to us microtransictions , DLC's and the so called "Online-Gaming" but in a worse way , Plain and Simple and get it through your head , its just people being fooled by this brand to force themselves to like it , Only one thing matter "Competition" and nothing as if i consider this as competition lol , I'd rather take Mario / Zelda games than this DUDEBRO crap you trying to promote even though i'm a Playstation fan .

[Bathyj]

Some people feel MS does more harm to gaming than good.

The last 3 or 4 years I've only gamed on Playstation. Not because I want to. I just dont feel anyone else is giving me what I need or deserving of my money, but trust me, I'd love to have 2 or 3 consoles I loved again like in the PS2/Xbox/Gamecube era. Maybe Samsung will step up one day.

[Necro_559]

Did people bitch about it with the Xbox 360? Because the Xbox 360 used a slower version, the same stuff the Wii U uses called edram. EsRam is literally the same but faster. Its just that the MS, Xbox hate train is going fast, so they will make up anything. Once again was eDram the death of the Xbox360? Nope....

[The_devils_chum]

Microsoft deserves it , every last bit. Im so tired of hearing them minimizing everything i like about technology and gaming. They dismiss true HD gaming when it suites their position. I get a kick out of seeing crisp images being churned out at high speeds and improving from the last gen. Im 38 seeing the evolution of gaming is interesting atari, nes,snes,n64,ps,game cube ect.....now one of the biggest corporations in the world says that stuff really doesnt matter anymore because they showed up at a gun show with a broken squirt.

[rafaman]

Crap article made by a fanboy. It doesn't deserves my click

[Heisenburger]

I don't know squat about esram, or anything about these technologies for that matter... Now folks, sit back and enjoy as I demonstrate how little I actually know...

[mediate-this]

I hear all this talk about microsoft being liars and boasting about things the xb1 can do but then it turns out the xbox has troubles with performance, but its only been three months, give out time it will do better, if it doesnt oh well its still a good machine.

But people harp on micro for making out landish promises, the cloud computing, and yeah i agree it seems out there, but i remember ken kutaragi or some high up sony exec saying the ps3 was able to out put 1080p/120fps game play. And im still waiting on the ps4 feature where i can see friends on my play list playing games and i can watch from my menu, and join if i please.

[Bathyj]

A bit alarmist I think.

There are many things that will be the death of it before the RAM. I actually dont really care about the power difference

[chaosx]

PS3 was more powerful than the 360 , and the 360 did just fine…….

[jhoward585]

WHAT EVER HAPPENED TO MS SECRET SAUCE.

[AnteCash]

MS used it for food....kinda

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-m...

[christocolus]

Nope it wont..great article though. Looking forward to what devs like rare, epic, crytek, remedy, 343i and blacktusk can come up with down the road. Things will definitly get better.

[4ShotKing]

Give the developers time to understand the XB1 hardware and architecture, the ESRAM as of right now is a huge con to the XB1, but once developers figure out ways to harness the full potential of the ESRAM, it'll be a huge benefit to the system, it's extremely fast RAM, but either way, I bought the XB1 for it's exclusives and as long as the gameplay is good, I'm happy.

[zerog]

Come on people, we all know both consoles will run 1080p 60fps on practically all games eventually as optimizations get better and we all know that the ps4 has a power advantage. The thing to do is forget that crap for the time being because that argument will be null and void in about 2 years. What we should be doing is looking at the games themselves and what they're bringing on screen as in lighting and particle effects ect. Its funny how people like truefan used to make power arguments and now agrees ps4 has an edge there so they down play it and say it has no games. I for one have infamous, the order and the division coming and am happy with that but until e3 gets here and we see developers cards for the next year or so its waay to early to jump the gun on the count or quality. Give both a couple years so that devs on both sides improve their technique and games that are true next gen and not something rushed or lazily ported, look at sales and I'll be willing to bet things are way more clear and straight forward on who's going to be top dog in this race. I really do believe ms will have to make some serious changes if they don't want to relive another spanking like was the ps2 gen, just saying.

[Allowen]

It is for sure the Xboxone's achilles ankle.

Just look at the beginning of this gen with lots of games that can not do 1080p and have some high quality graphics at the same time.

Later on Microsoft will have to have high end graphic games with more then 6v6 players (Titanfall)excluside games to compete with Sony.
They might have to start making some games with even lower resolution then 900p so they can focus in delivering some "real" high end graphics by the end of this gen.
That can be bad for MS if Sony can deliver such games without the need to reduce resolution bellow 900p.

[Dehnus]

Yes... yes it will:

*Yawns and goes back to playing Wii U, hoping Xbox One and PS4 owners will do similar things and just ignore articles like this*

[CaulkSlap]

Well it's really the only thing holding Xbox One's hardware together. With just 8GB DDR3 it would be far worse. The problem is the design of the hardware architecture overall. Sony made a big bet on GDDR5 getting cheaper to produce and it has paid off in spades.

[urwifeminder]

Ready to dive into the Abyss with MS then cause I sure as hell wont buy a sony anything.

[DivineAssault]

it will prolly be dead in japan shortly after launch.. Im sure the US will cling on for a little while but the nx region for it to die in would be EU.. The US will be the last to let go but new systems will be out again & the battle will continue.. IDK if M$ will still be in the console business at that point but its possible.. Im not into shooters so theres really no exclusives they have that interest me.. I would like to play Killer Instinct but im not buying xb1 to do it.. Most of its other console exclusive titles will be on PC also

[jessupj]

It's not going to kill it, but it will hold it back considerably for the entire generation.

I just hope multiplatform developers don't limit their vision for grand games that could have been possible on the PS4 because of having to cater to the xbone.

I still see a little denial and apologising here and there, but I think thanks to the constant barrage of articles stating facts about the power of the consoles a certain group is starting to accept it.

Unfortunately some of them are resorting to the ridiculous argument that the PS4 has no games, when it has more games and higher rated games on average. (Metacritic is still flawed)

[sgtGanGreen]

What a stupid thing to say

[idontcare]

I'm glad i bought a xbox one ... and after watching Tomb Raider being played side by side i really don't know what' s all that fuzz about. Both look great with little differences. Besides that there are more things than hardware specs. Now please bring Titanfall, Halo, Fable, Quantum Break, Sunset Overdrive, Forza Horizon 2, D4 and Gears of War - these are the reasons why i bought and prefer the xbox one.

[AndyLFC5]

I just hope the xbox one doesn't hold back the PS4 with multi plat games. Wouldn't put it past Microsoft to pay the likes of EA and Activision to make sure both versions of their games are closer than they could be.

[idontcare]

Lolol... you make it sound like they are playing in different leagues. Sad fanboy troll.

[cyber_daemonx]

They are lolol.

[KakashiHotake]

It certainly won't be the death of Xbox One. If that's the case then PS3 would've been dead on arrival. However the esram will hold the Xbox One back and does limit it's potential. I'm not entirely sure why Microsoft made their console with such a limited development architecture. I understand they put a lot of focus into media functions but at it's heart it's still a games console.

[PS4isKing_82]

It won't kill it. It won't do as well as the 360 did mostly because of the higher price, and drm fiasco as well as a focus on media other than gaming. America will see it's best sales for the system while everywhere else will mostly be going ps4.

However once a few more games hit for it, I'll be getting an xbox one myself for the next halo game. Just like I had to get a wiiu last year for the new Nintendo games that will be coming out.

But overall the xbox one will be just fine regardless of what ps or Nintendo fanboys want you to believe.

[bornsinner]

unless they create something decent for devs to utilize the esram then yes it will be a 900p-720p console with a gigantic pointless camera.

but the games will keep it alive like titanfall, gears & halo

[Whiskeyjacked87]

I love these articles, all the in denial xbots come alive. I just get such a kick out of them defending an inferior device. Their worst nightmares are coming true and it's becoming increasingly harder for them to sleep at night.

[Milruka]

Consoles are already dead.

They are finally get 1080 30fps while I'm sitting here playing 60fps on 4k.

[quenomamen]

Because paying $400 for just a video card is the same as $400 for an entire console.

[Milruka]

Yea the difference is I'm not poor.

:)

[quenomamen]

People expect better performance from " Next Gen " hardware and the X1 is just not showing it, and it deff aint showing why its worth $100 more at this point. They will find ways of getting more out of it true but that also applies to PS4 games. What like only obe console can improve ? Riiiight.

[TheKayle1]

..oh again...developer need to take confidence with the hardware

""If you're only doing a read you're capped at 109GB/s, if you're only doing a write you're capped at 109GB/s," he says. "To get over that you need to have a mix of the reads and the writes but when you are going to look at the things that are typically in the ESRAM"

"The question is just to what extent channelling resources through the relatively tiny 32MB of the much faster ESRAM is going to cause issues for developers. Microsoft's point is that game-makers have experience of this already owing to the eDRAM set-up on Xbox 360 - and ESRAM is the natural evolution of the same system."

microsoft just hoped in the wrong way ..devs are not experienced.....but is clear that they will get used

bandwith: esram peak 204 gb/s > gddr5 176 gb/s
esram average speed 140/150 gb/s > gddr5 average speed 130/140 gb/s
and yes ..you can read and write simultaneously on esram

"There are four 8MB lanes, but it's not a contiguous 8MB chunk of memory within each of those lanes. Each lane, that 8MB is broken down into eight modules. This should address whether you can really have read and write bandwidth in memory simultaneously," says Baker.

http://www.eurogamer.net/ar...

32 mega little bank of memory...= tiled rendering = problem solved

http://www.youtube.com/watc...

this was running on a xbox 360 with 10 mega of edram
the techdemo was from lionhead...

this type of rendering will come soon this gen...

the only problem of the xONE are those gflops of differences....not the esram...i think that their memory system is just better coz is an HW tiled rendering machine...

[ElementX]

I bought the Xbox One for the exclusives. I play mostly on PC and a little on PS4. It may be less powerful however I have played some really good games that don't look current gen.

[insomniacgamer]

Amen to that logic brother. Wish other people would get on the "gamer" bus and off the bandwagon.

[cyber_daemonx]

The eSRAM is only part of the problem. The biggest problem is the kinect, then the price, then the power difference. Also inferior multiplats and a lack of original exclusives doesn't help (Halo, Gears, Forza, Fable *sigh*). Add to all that the fact it isn't selling very well, even in it's home territory, I'd say actually eSRAM is one of the least of xbones problems.

[gamer2013]

Anyone who says that the X1 isn't doing very well are trolling. Compared to the launch 360 the X1 is doing great. I believe that all the PS4 hype will eventually settle then it will be all about the games and I feel that MS has the serious upper hand here. Sony may have a huge stable of indie titles but people don't drop a few hundred bucks on a brand new console for those.

MS has invested a $1 billion into game development for the X1 and with that created quite a few of new IP's which is refreshing. In case you are unaware; D4, Quantum Break, Project Spark, Sunset Overdrive, Crimson Dragon as well as an unannounced Black Tusk studios IP with more to be announced later. There is also rumors of a Crackdown 3 possibly happening.

MS really has nothing to worry about; especially with Sony's credit recently being dropped to junk status, they're really in no position to be throwing any money around. I believe that Sony will be playing it real safe this gen so don't hope for too much.

[cyber_daemonx]

Yeah its doing well now, barely 3 months after launch, whilst all the fanboys are still buying it. Unfortunately the PS4 is outselling the xbone in the US let alone the rest of the world, and its still gotta launch in Japan yet. Ok there's a couple new ip's from MS, but look what happened last time with the 360, the 1st party support dropped off about half way through its cycle when MS started their obsession with kinect, leaving predominantly 3rd party support only. MS always front loads their consoles at launch, so I wouldn't get too excited.

And as for Sony's junk credit status, the PS division is flourishing at the moment, its the TV and PC side of Sony that is struggling unlike xbox where its the complete opposite, so much so that MS are considering offloading the xbox division as so much dead wood. TBH I'd be much more worried if I was an xbox fan.

Face it the PS4 is killing it. Its a better machine, cheaper, better multiplats, better exclusives, nicer controller and you can guarantee Sony won't drop it at the end of this current cycle, unlike MS will with xbone.

Sorry but Crackdown 3, yeah thats really gonna shift units lol.

[TheRedButterfly]

Hmmm… Was Cell the death of the PS3?

[parentsbasement]

Its already killed it , since this article came out they have only sold 2 , one guy claimed he clicked on the wrong button, and im the dumbass that got the other one...../s

[insomniacgamer]

I see it like this (as a gamer):

1.) Buy a pc upgrade if graphics are a deal breaker for you. Or you want to play a game coming out on it.
2.) Buy the PS4 if you like the games coming out on it.
3.) Buy the XB1 if you like the games coming out on it.
4.) Mix up the above three, if funds permit, and stop this "One system to rule them all" nonsense.

I promise that if you like the game it will be fun no matter what you choose. These articles are inflammatory in nature and the idiotic self proclaimed Google style experts trip me out with their 10 minutes of expert web search knowledge. I know I am going XB1 for Titanfall, PS4 for Uncharted, and PC for a plethora of other awesome titles. Grandstand against any of the consoles and you miss out on having fun, what kind of sense does that make?

[mmj]

No because it's much weaker GPU is the bigger problem, I see we are onto scapegoating the ESRAM again.

[corroios]

People are not really thinking well. The games that are out and are coming are just cross-gen and the xbox one is having problems with the resolution and frames.

Will the tools of the xbox one get better? yes, but the games will get a lot more demanding. Its not just the resolution and frames, its all about the effects, number of players on screen in huge battles online, multiple massive explosion, post processing stuff and all this together is the problem.

I cant understand why did Microsoft not choose a better gpu, the box is huge, so less problem with the heat, they got lots of Money and should think about the future.

I think will see a bigger gap, because while the xbox one programers are working to get better rez and frames, sony is already ahead of that situation and working in getter better AA, less demanding and stuff like that.

The other problem is that 3rd parties dont care about pushing the hardware. It happend with the xbox 360 and ps3, where the games run better on the Microsoft machine, because the sony machine was harder to get from point a to b...

The problem is that the cloud will not make the gap in raw power between the two consoles.

[fullmetal297]

Why are people are making such a big deal with this DDR3 and ESRAM combination? It isn't like this hasn't been done by Microsoft before. The Xbox 360 had the exact configuration with 512MB of DDR3 and 10MB of eDRAM, yet developers still made games for the platform.

Other companies has used embedded RAM including Sony with their PSP and PS2, nad developers still made games for them without any complaints. And please don't tell me eDRAM different from eSRAM because they still have the same function as a frame buffer despite have a different matter of operation.

[X1BestOne]

NO? its about making good games and xbox 1 is going to provide that..

hardware dont matter
Graphics dont matter
Its about good games look at minecraft
its got really bad graphics but its a good game.
people just moaning about hardware are stupid.

[xDHAV0K24x]

No. Like every console, it depends on the games.

[greenlantern2814]

A lot of people on here keep saying " that the devs just need to figure out how to use the xb1 or work a little harder to achieve 1080p/60vs". Well they won't working harder means more time time us money so the multiplatform games will just be better on ps4 since it is easier to do. The same reason multiplatform games ran better and sometime looked better on 360 cause it was easier to do.

[REDAVUTSTUVADER]

another dumb article based on nonsense and inaccurate knowledge and data

[SugarSoSweet]

MICROSOFT shud have gone with more traditional memory (GDDR5) because they were fools who chose DDR3 it meant that this memory type din't have enough bandwidth. So they had to use ESRAM to make up the bandwidth deficit but in turn adding ESRAM maent they had to sacrifice GCN CU'S AND SHADERS