Sony Too™

I'll make this short and sweet (yeah right. I'm always too verbose):

We all have favorites. We're gamers, and we're passionate about our hobby. It's only natural to have a favorite.

And that's fine.

But when your favorite company does something shady, let's acknowledge it. Acknowledging the problem is what allowed the Xbox One to avoid being a completely melted carapace of failure. Acknowledging the problem is what transformed the PS3 from "lol Blu Ray trojan" to an exclusive-rich gaming machine. NOT acknowledging the problem is what led Nintendo to their missteps with the Wii-U (hopefully they can recover). The only way we can urge our favorite companies to improve is to let them know. Yes, yes, it can often get overblown. We're gamers! We're a passionate bunch, and sometimes we shout a bit louder than we should. But that does not mean we should sit down, shut up, and #dealwithit

It's bad enough not to acknowledge the problem, but to intentionally deflect accusations by saying "but but someone else did it too!" is pathetic. It's counterproductive in every way. It borders on shilling, honestly.

Back when Xbox One DRM was rumored, a lot of people sat on their hands and said "it's probably not true". When it became obvious that, indeed, the DRM scheme was true, these same people said "oh...well...I guess I'll live with it, since Sony will do it too."

Hence, Sony Too™.

But Sony didn't do it. Neither did Nintendo. The blame rested only on Microsoft's shoulders, and deflecting the blame did nothing to help the situation.

Whenever we see a negative news story (and I mean a real story, not an opinion piece like '5 reasons Wii-U is doomed') the excuses just come rolling out.

"If Sony had the chance, they'd do this too"

"Microsoft said something insulting? Well...back in 2006 Sony also said some really arrogant stuff"

"You think corporations are your friend? They're not."

"Everyone probably does this."

"No one will care. The internet's reaction doesn't matter" (lol that's why we still have Xbox One DRM amirite?)

"Steam does this anyway, so I don't see the problem."

OH! And there's always my very, very favorite. Someone always chimes in with a news story from years ago where such-and-such company did something bad, completely off-topic.

"Microsoft is a part of PRISM? Well, Sony put rootkits on people's computers a decade ago".

So? Are you trying to say that it's okay, or are you trying to show everyone that all companies do bad things? What is your motivation for bringing this up? It does nothing to help the situation, and it certainly doesn't send the message to the company in question that they should stop their shady practices.

It's as if you're so mad that your favorite company is being criticized that you really need to "balance the scales" and bring up a bad thing from a competitor to your favorite company, as if that will make it all okay. After all, we can't have people thinking YOUR favorite company is the only one doing bad things. No, no, no. You'd better bring up a bad thing the other guy did back in 2007. That'll show 'em.

On and on. What is the value of crying Sony Too™? What does it accomplish? Does it make any of the game companies (including Sony) any better? Isn't this the same mentality that refused to protest the Xbox One's DRM plans?

And this isn't meant to be a dogpile on Microsoft (although they are the main cuplits for "Them Too" excuses). I know Sony got away unscathed, but PS+ being required for PS4 online was swept away with "Them Too" excuses. Very few stopped to question it, and those that did were brushed away with the wave of a hand.

EDIT: And in case people are confused, there is a time and a place to say "Them Too". For instance, if a news story leaked that Nintendo, Sony, and Microsoft were bribing IGN editors for better reviews but the news articles coming out only said "Microsoft bribes IGN!", then...well...duh! Obviously that's a case of "Sony Too" and "Nintendo Too" because they are a part of the story. What needs to stop is when a story comes out about a company and then someone chimes in with a completely unrelated event from a different company as if to say "but they're doing it as well". That doesn't aid discussion in the least.

The point is, let's stop with the Sony Too™ excuses (or "Nintendo Too" or "Microsoft Too" or "Steam Too"). This attitude is damaging to the gaming industry. It allows big companies (and big companies aren't your friends, remember? That's what people keep mentioning) to continue infesting our communities with astroturfers and shills.

Speak up and discuss the problem. Don't simply cry Sony Too™

[DragonKnight]

In before someone tries to say that Sony changed their mind at E3 and took out the DRM due to the backlash that Microsoft received.

I don't know why, but there seems to be this sickening attitude that negative feedback shouldn't be expressed. I suppose the phrase "if you've got nothing nice to say..." applies. But negative feedback is often more helpful than positive feedback and it's certainly viewed more, so it's our responsibility to be able to voice when he have a problem and not accept terrible practices.

[dedicatedtogamers]

But but but you seem to have an "agenda" since you always seem to post negative things about such-and-such company!

^^^ I hear that one all the time (remember? I'm DedicatedToSony). No, I don't have an agenda. I just have the same opinion that I did a week ago, a month ago, etc and such-and-such company hasn't given me any reason to change that opinion.

[DragonKnight]

Preaching to the choir man. You and I get the same treatment and someone even suggested we're the same person due to our comments. But, you have 10 bubbles and I have 6, so obviously we're not the same.

You're right though. I mean, for me, Microsoft has done so little good that you have nothing good to talk about when it comes to them. They are more interested in others doing work for them than they are doing work for themselves.

That's why they buy positive press, that's why they go after 3rd party exclusivity deals more than having a solid first party development scene. Anything good about the Xbox One doesn't come from Microsoft, it comes from 3rd parties.

[GarrusVakarian]

" No, I don't have an agenda. I just have the same opinion that I did a week ago, a month ago, etc and such-and-such company hasn't given me any reason to change that opinion."

Exactly this. My attitude towards MS hasn't changed since 2010 when they ditched me for the casual gamer/family. Because of that, i bought a PS3 in 2011 and wished i bought one sooner.

I also love how short-sighted some X1 fans can be, you would think after the PS3, they would realise that saying "lol PS4 has no games" (despite the fact it actually has more)is incredibly naive, you think Sony have just suddenly lost their game when it comes to exclusives? Ha. They always live in the here and now, no long term vision whatsoever. If was an Xbox only gamer and i trolled the PS3 when it was first released and i then saw how it ended up at the end of the gen...the last thing i would be doing is making that same mistake with the PS4. They get a couple extra exclusives and they act like they have too many games to hold.

[HonestDragon]

I agree with you guys. When it comes to the whole "this company did something bad, too" subject, I just can't fathom how a tactic from years ago could be relevant to today. Every company has skeletons in their closet as well as moments that no one is proud of. In this case, I am sick of hearing "b-b-b-but Sony did this cruel thing to us six years ago" or "Steam was making us do this five years ago". It's like a friend who brings up something stupid you said when you were in middle school and they are holding that against you to support whatever they are saying now even though you are both twenty-four years old in the present. It's a flimsy case with no strength to it.

[DragonKnight]

My favourite is the Sony rootkit excuse. People who use it tend to ignore the fact that it was Sony BGM that did that and not the Playstation division. Using that as a Sony Too™ argument is akin to attacking the Xbox One because Microsoft have a terrible PC OS in Windows 8. The two have nothing to do with each other and the people using that excuse are merely showing that they have no legitimate point to make and are just busting something irrelevant out because the common denominator is the overall company.

[-Foxtrot]

I feel like people never head on problems their favorite company is making but instead decide to shift the blame onto someone else

Like in Nintendo articles about the Wii U (a console)

"Bu Bu But...look at the PSV"

"Well look at the 3DS"

Yeah thats nice but your ignoring the problem by either shifting the blame or covering it up.

[ABizzel1]

No one wants to hear the truth anymore. There's just too many fake people in the world who want to live in their own little make believe happy universe, and when you hit them with facts, logic, and reality to bring them back to the real world. They turn on their Mega Troll Activate Mode, or they disagree with everything you say until they force themselves to believe it's not true.

People are stupid nowadays, and the internet has done nothing, but let people remain and accept stupidity widespread.

Time for another round of natural selection IMO.

[Godmars290]

Thing is, as the actual consoles is coming off, Sony's stance was as much "always online" as MS. That while its not the absolute MS tried to dictate, an internet connection does look like a necessity for the PS4.

[Christopher]

*scratches head in confusion*

[ravinash]

The issue isn't that either company is pushing out these social services, group chat, videos, etc, etc. To use social functions requires to be connected and to be connected means you have to be on line when you use them.

Fact is if I wanted to play my single player game and not use the social features, I can....we all can NOW....even with an xbox.

[s45gr32]

Not just negative feedback but to come out with solution to the problem. Slow but sure petitions, group projects like operation rainfall also work best

[Pogmathoin]

Dedicated, people are not denying MS did wrong, but being the child you are, always wanting to have the last word with your opinion being final. I notice now your comments get hammered now, that you had to do this supposed piece of journalism, no doubt after you we're able to choke back the tears. I am glad PS 4 is awesome, and MS fecked up, they needed a lesson in humility. But who the f$&k do you think you are always trying to people what is right for them? You are what represents the worst about Sony fans. I love my PS4, along with my X1, and some others that I still have. Get out a get some fresh air, get some perspective on life.....

[TwistingWords]

"It's as if you're so mad that your favorite company is being criticized that you really need to "balance the scales" and bring up a bad thing from a competitor to your favorite company, as if that will make it all okay. After all, we can't have people thinking YOUR favorite company is the only one doing bad things. No, no, no. You'd better bring up a bad thing the other guy did back in 2007. That'll show 'em."

Check your own comment history for reference.

[dedicatedtogamers]

It's as though you're trying to prove my blog's point for me.

"G-g-great point, Dedicated! Except that y-y-you're a hypocrite! BUUUURN!"

[dedicatedtogamers]

"You just use this as another attempt to try and besmirch Microsoft..."

Interesting how the blog is aimed at us, gamers, who blindly defend companies, not at Microsoft.

Thanks for yet another comment that proves my blog to be correct. Might as well use your other two bubbles to keep proving me right, too.

[DigitalRaptor]

Excellent blog, dedicated. The same thing happened to me yesterday. In fact, it happens all the time.

Although my argument wasn't about the mistakes of a company so much, it quickly turned into that, as my bias was called into question because of my post history. Rather than confronting the point I was making that concerned the Xbox fanbase (at this moment in time, under these circumstances), it turned into discussion about why i dislike Microsoft, and how I shouldn't be able to talk about hypocrisy. http://n4g.com/news/1440878...

Common sense and honest, logical criticism shouldn't be censored, let alone reason be deflected or blame shifted because people are too sensitive to learn the truth.

[Kayant]

My take on the but Sony Too... other companies is didn't they face the consequences of their actions? Not too informed on this whole situation as I didn't follow gaming that much until mid 2013.

If they faced the consequences of their actions similarly MS should as well. This should not just be tucked away because *Everyone* does it.

Also I still laugh at people who still say Sony where going to do the same always online DRM with the same USED games policy when there is no real evidence that points toward that and the fact right after their conference in February like with MS when they confirmed all the DRM stuff Sony also confirmed no connection was needed to play games day one, no always online, Used games were fine but Shuhei Yoshida worded it a bit weird so it was kinda sketchy but that was more probably due to him not being a native english speaker.

[DragonKnight]

You should have been around for the PS3 launch and then the next 2 years afterwards. Pictures of the PS3 as a George Foreman grill, the constant "it has no games" articles and comments, the whining about the price and how it included stuff no one wanted but then the whining about the removal of OtherOS which less than 1% of the userbase used.

Sony faced some serious heat.

[iceman06]

Funny that you say that because that's when I joined this site. Just in time for the Sony hate train...and it was strong. Most of it had to do with PRICE. The average person was just not able, or willing, to part with that $600. So, the hate ensued. Really, who didn't want the next gen Sony system after the success of the PS2? You can't tell me that, because of some silly (and often misquoted) comments made at E3, all of a sudden Sony is dead to an entire generation of gamers. Mind you, not an ACTION, but just some words.
In the end it was, and still is, rather silly to watch the constant banter and defense of companies that clearly don't have the interests of gamers at heart (whether that be Sony, Nintendo, or MS). Typically, I refrain from commenting in debates (usually arguments) simply because there simply aren't enough people that show the ability to remain level headed and keep the fanboy stuff isolated from the discussion at hand.
I will say that, as a mostly lurker, you and Dedicated seem to keep that to a minimum while making salient points that are hard to truly argue. Props for that.

[GarrusVakarian]

"Pictures of the PS3 as a George Foreman grill, the constant "it has no games" articles and comments, "

I remember those. And look how it ended up....more and better rated exclusives than the 360. And yet they still say "PS4 has no games". They are perpetual idiots that never learn from their mistakes. In the highly likely event that the PS4 ends up with more and better rated exclusives at the end of this gen....i will sit back in my chair and laugh, deeply and heartily while holding my stomach.

[doolin_dalton]

I was around (not here, but around) during PS3's launch.

Many PS3 fans did the same thing that dedicatedtogamers is accusing MS fans of doing now - they pretended nothing was wrong and talked up the PS3's positives while ignoring the negatives.

[dedicatedtogamers]

@ doolin_dalton

But what's the point? I don't disagree with that at all (didn't get my first PS3 until early 2009, fyi) but what's the point? Sony fanboys were acting like fanboys, and now Xbox fans (the same fanbase that mocked Sony fanboys for making those excuses) are making those same excuses.

The point is that bringing up anecdotes from 7 years ago or saying Sony Too just because...you think Sony does it too adds absolutely nothing to the discussion. In fact, it makes it worse, because it continues the cycle of hypocrisy.

[loulou]

Sony faced some serious heat...

Luckily they have guys sites like n4g giving them some back up

[MightyNoX]

The first step on the path to fixing the problem is acknowledging you have one. As long as Microsoft and those who worship them keep deflecting instead of admitting their faults, this trainwreck will continue--

Either that, or they're just being paid to say 'Sony Too'...now how much do you think each mention of Sony Too per post nets? 3$?

[maniacmayhem]

The problem is you and your types of fanboys who favor one system do your best to ONLY acknowledge the faults of other systems you don't like. You take that and perpetuate it so high you make it a bigger deal than it is. Consistently there are those who are first to comment to stir the pot and rally the troops, followed by blogs to keep the flames hot.

Lets not forget how you were outraged when you found out about Xbox One's RAM allocation for games as you accused Xbox One not being a true gaming machine...but quickly backtracked with a full blog defending the same allocation (or lack of explanation) when information surfaced PS4 was the same.

And just recently you and I had a discussion about why the Vita wasn't doing so well (in a Vita only article by the way)and instead of discussing the points you brought in Nintendo's WiiU. Why? You instigated the same "Nintendo Too" deflection that you are now calling to stop in this blog.

http://n4g.com/news/1440157...

How can anyone take what you and others say seriously? How can we follow you in this call to lower our arms when you and the many commenting on this article are the very first ones to fire the same shots you supposedly hate?

You guys go out of control with comments that have no real impact on a gamer. Now granted with the exception of the MS, DRM issue but the same can't be said with the FCC, hUMA and the likes where most of you were out there outraged and appalled for no good reason.

If you really want this Sony Too to stop then how about focus on what each console offers in terms of features and games. Stop feeding into this other ridiculousness that has no real impact on gaming.

[-Foxtrot]

Here we go, someone tries to bring up a point in a well made blog and you want to ground him and others down as fanboys.

Yeah people might be a little pro Sony but it doesn't mean they are fanboys, they just like what Sony have done in the past few years. You praise those who do things right, I'm not saying Sony is perfect, they really aren't but lately the good things outweigh the bad however with someone like Microsoft the scales are so off balanced that you can't do anything but judge, not to mention everytime you think for spilt second they are going to turn it around they dig themselves into a bigger hole....and boy has that hole been digging since the Xbox One reveal, they must be at the Earth's core by now. When Microsoft seems to of done something good it always ends up not being the full picture and how they've sugar coated it to make it better then what it actually is, take all this cloud talk all of a sudden, it was talked up a lot and now we're starting to realise that in fact they might be talking a load of bulls***. Not to mention you have the Youtube thing going on

As for Nintendo...well with all the articles lately you know whats going on, your not stupid. The problem with the Wii U is that people fail to see that just because the 3DS is doing well doesn't mean it's the Wii Us life boat and we should lay off Nintendo because of their successful handheld. Sony has the PS3 selling well AND there new console, so while their handheld might be struggling at least they have two products selling well while Nintendo only has one, the 3DS because their past console, the Wii, is none existent, it's been dead for a few years now. Can you really defend Nintendo when only the 3DS is holding them up

[dedicatedtogamers]

It's funny how you linked that comment, which was aimed at you, specifically, and your tendency to deflect criticism away from Nintendo while aiming that exact criticism at other companies. Inasmuch as I have a reputation for going "out of control with comments that have no real impact on a gamer", you have a reputation for inconspicuously showing up in threads to offer your "balanced" opinion for the topic at hand, just like you're doing now.

I mean, I know you aren't fond of my comments here on N4G, mayhem. You and I have had plenty of run-ins over the months. That's fine. We don't have to agree. But you and your ilk seem to follow "us types of fanboys" around the site while we don't do the same to you. Internet police force, much?

It just seems odd how I made a blog about how people post "but but they do it too" excuses, and then you come in to say "but but you guys do it too" and "but but but you said that RAM allocation thing a year ago" (for which I did another blog and a reversal, you conveniently omit) as if you're making some sort of profound point.

But you're not. You're part of the problem.

[starchild]

Give me a freaking break, dedicatedtoSony. Nobody follows you around. What happens is that you are all over the site spewing the same old irrational, biased, one-sided garbage and people can't help but notice.

You know, maniacmayhem and I probably disagree on a great many things. It seems he is a fairly strong Nintendo supporter, whereas I haven't really been excited about a Nintendo console since the N64. I am more of a PC gamer, while apparently he is more of a console gamer. And there would probably be many more areas where our preferences and opinions would differ.

Nevertheless, you can actually have a civil and rational conversation with somebody like maniacmayhem. Such a thing is impossible with people like you, DragonKnight, -Foxtrot, DigitalRaptor and the rest of the carbon-copy Sony fanboys commenting on this blog, bubbling each other up and patting each other on the back.

I don't see maniacmayhem in PC articles trying to attack or downplay the platform. I don't see him attacking other platforms either. Even in articles about Sony platforms I don't see the kind of blatant hate and vitriol coming from him as I do from those of your ilk.

Yes, I am sure that diehard Sony loyalists like you see his confrontation of your bias and hypocrisy as an affront to Mother Sony herself. But what he is doing is very different than what your type does. He isn't attacking Sony or its gaming platforms, he is criticizing the blatant trolling and laughably distorted thinking that people like you are guilty of.

I think he is sick of the cesspool that the gaming community has become and simply wants to do his part to help clean it up.

[maniacmayhem]

@Foxtrot
Yes, Dedicated is trying to bring up a point. How unfortunate that the point he's bringing up is the exact same thing you and Dedicated constantly do throughout N4G.

You see Foxtrot as I mentioned in my first post and what you seem to be doing is you spend most of your time being negative, blasting MS for any little circumstance, in Titanfall articles claiming it's over hyped or wondering as to why anyone would be excited about the game. It's rare that I see you have any excitement for any game unless it's you praising something from ND as the second coming as one of your comments hilariously suggested.

Yes, the Youtube thing happened. MS through Machinima paid youtubers to talk great about MS without disclosing their profits. Now how does that affect you and your PS4/WiiU/Xbox One gaming? How does this affect your personal decisions or your time on the couch playing your favorite PS3 game? It doesn't, but to see you and others you would think this was salt of the earth.

What's funny is you guys constantly preach to the choir.

Maybe you see so many "Sony Too" because you all spent so much anger towards a specific console and it's features that when Sony rolls out the same features you all become suspiciously quiet, or complacent, with no blogs, just absent completely.

@Dedictaed
You all can sit here and point fingers at others but when the attention is directed back at you it's always the same excuse:
"MS defenders",
"stop attacking me",
"You're following me!"
I love how you can write a whole public blog or make a crappy comment and have this attitude of you shouldn't be questioned or debated about it.

Yes, the link was aimed at me, which is why I brought it up. As you can see you pulled a Nintendo Too, the very same thing you are complaining in your blog about. Isn't that odd you have problems with fanboys bringing up Sony Too but were so quick to use the Nintendo Too knowing I was a Nintendo fanboy.

Why is that Dedicated?

Where have I deflected criticism away from Nintendo? Just some samples...

http://n4g.com/news/1438853...

http://n4g.com/news/1432022...

http://n4g.com/news/1431594...

Again I have to prove you wrong like the last time you accused me of being a MS fanboy who gladly accepted MS's DRM policies. Remember that Dedicated? And I had to prove you wrong with that assumption...and yet you get so bent out of shape when others call you DedicatedtoSony.

I have spoken about and given my opinions about Nintendo so many times. How unfortunate that you never see those but instead notice how I "follow you" or "inconspicuously offering my balanced opinion".

You made a blog about this because you and your circle need to feed off of each others hypocrisies and reassure each other you are fighting the good fight. You and others constantly make blogs and complain about the very same things you all do everyday on this site. And god forbid anyone challenge you or debate your opinionated ideas.

That's the real problem Dedicated, the real problem that lies with you and the ones that follow your same way of thinking, "agree with me or else.".

[dedicatedtogamers]

Nah, it's not "agree with me or else". Septic and I have plenty of disagreements and we get along fine.

For starters, it's how you begin every post of yours directed at me with a comment like "The problem is you and your types of fanboys..."

If you want to discuss, discuss. If you want to namecall, then go ahead.

"I mentioned in my first post and what you seem to be doing is you spend most of your time being negative"

I can't speak for Foxtrot, but I make plenty of comments on other games. I enjoy N4G. I enjoy being a part of the community here. I can't help that Microsoft is constantly in the news.

"Now how does that affect you and your PS4/WiiU/Xbox One gaming?"

How do my comments affect YOU, out of curiosity? You seem deeply offended whenever I talk. This is a gaming community where we comment. And we're allowed to comment on things that might affect the future of gaming, aren't we? Microsoft's decisions affect gaming. Should I shut up because you personally think I talk about Microsoft too much according to your personal standard?

"Maybe you see so many "Sony Too" because you all spent so much anger towards a specific console and it's features that when Sony rolls out the same features you all become suspiciously quiet, or complacent, with no blogs, just absent completely."

If Sony does the same thing and we just turn a blind eye, then why are all the Sony Too responses about fake PSP blogs back in 2006 or rootkit issues from Sony Music Division? Funny how - in my blog - I mention that Sony fans played "Microsoft Too" when PS+ was announced as a req for online play. But no, let's ignore that. Can't let your mental image of me be affected by, you know, reality.

The irony with the Nintendo Too accusation is that I was actually slamming Sony and the Vita in my original comment. Go back and read it. I was praising the 3DS and saying how it actually had system sellers, and you come in and...what do you call it..."make it a bigger deal than it is"

I find it endearing when people call me DedicatedtoSony, simply because it shows me that the person has little/no history of my time on this site. Makes it easier to sift through the new users.

"I have spoken about and given my opinions about Nintendo so many times. How unfortunate that you never see those"

I've made comments on your posts before, and I'm often quite nice about it. To be honest, I usually only see you when you pop up in my Notifications toolbar after you've replied to me. Surely, you can understand why this would give me the impression that you are "following me".

"You made a blog about this because you and your circle need to feed off of each others hypocrisies and reassure each other you are fighting the good fight. You and others constantly make blogs and complain about the very same things you all do everyday on this site. And god forbid anyone challenge you or debate your opinionated ideas."

Project less. Play internet police less. You'll be happier. It's silly to accuse me of "feeding off others hypocrisies" and "fighting the good fight" when you yourself have taken the time to come in here, sling insults, and go on a tirade. You're more than welcome to address the topic at hand. Do you think that people should bring up unrelated anecdotes from several years ago as a way to deflect attention away from the topic at hand? Seems like you're very good at that, crawling through my post history at all.

But I'll ask you again, aside from my "hypocrisy", do you have any opinion on the topic?

[maniacmayhem]

@ Dedicated

There is no irony Dedicated, you accused the Vita of not having or needing a huge system seller game and I told you that wasn't the case and gave you my reasons why. Your last response was basically "What about Nintendo?". It was a Nintendo Too statement through and through.

"How do my comments affect YOU, out of curiosity?"

Your comments do not affect me, as mine does not affect you. So because I disagree with your points or your views I have to be offended?
Some of your views and points I disagree with and I point them out to you. The same way i'm sure you do others. How come every time someone challenges you, questions you or debates, you assume we have a problem with you and want you to shut up or go away. This is exactly your problem, constantly thinking everyone wants to censor you.

Is it possible that maybe sometimes I think your just wrong and I'm pointing it out and telling you why.

"Funny how - in my blog - I mention that Sony fans played "Microsoft Too" when PS+"

I love this line, you all seem to do this when writing your blogs. You put one line of objectivity that you think dismisses your bias or all out bashing of your main topic. It's like the movie Ricky Bobby when he says: "with all due respect." then proceeds to insult the person.

"...and go on a tirade."

Me go on a tirade? And what was your blog going on and on about? Again, on the defensive as no one can object to your personal views or thoughts. If we do so we're going on a tirade, we're being internet police, we want to shut you up, we're following you, slinging insults. You spend so much time trying to shut any and all opinions of anything you put down on this site.

I already said my opinion about your blog. My main point out of all that you have written has been if you want this "Them Too" attitude to stop then how about you stop it first. Kind of hard to preach to the crowd and have them listen while at the same time firing shots.

Edit:
http://n4g.com/news/1441673...

I rest my case...here you go bringing up the past to a user who is clearly trying to troll. What was it you just posted to Doolin up top:

"The point is that bringing up anecdotes from 7 years ago or saying Sony Too just because...you think Sony does it too adds absolutely nothing to the discussion. In fact, it makes it worse, because it continues the cycle of hypocrisy."

So how was your comment adding anything? Lead by example Dedicated.

[dedicatedtogamers]

ManiacMayhem

So you're allowed to "call people out", but I'm not? The "bringing up the past" thing is specific to people trying to use anecdotes from the past to deflect the topic at hand. You're very good at deflection. I think over the months I could use your vitriol as a case-study for all general categories of logical fallacies. Hasty generalizations, ad hominem, and how ironic, tu quoque as well.

My comment was very much related to the topic at hand, I'm happy to report.

You have a very....broken viewpoint of how the world operates. Seriously. You already have an image in your mind as to how you think I think and how you think I behave. Nothing can contradict that. I'm fine with people disagreeing with me. Is it too much to ask to leave the personal insults out of it?

I enjoy this site. I'm sorry that you are so personally offended by my "hypocrisy", but your personal emotions really aren't my problem. I'll continue what I'm doing, and you can go ahead and either contribute to the discussion or you can continue with ad hominem attacks on the messenger instead of the message. You admitted it yourself:

"My main point out of all that you have written has been if you want this "Them Too" attitude to stop then how about you stop it first. Kind of hard to preach to the crowd and have them listen while at the same time firing shots."

So, if I'm hearing you correctly, your main point isn't that I'm wrong or that I'm right. Your main point isn't that anecdotes from the past are legit or bogus. Your main point is that *I* need to stop *my* attitude before I'm allowed to say something.

Ad hominem. Come back when you want to debate.

[doolin_dalton]

@Manic

You are 100% right. Dedicatedtogamers seems to want to continue to do the same things he condemns others for doing by saying:

"You're part of the problem. I just said that it's wrong to look back at something someone said and use it against them".

He clearly pulled a NintendoToo, but he seems to think it's wrong of you to point it out because it means you had to look at his comment history. Pretty convenient. He can be as hypocritical as he wants, then pull the "you looked at my comment history so you're part of the problem" card when he's exposed.

Looking back 5 or 10 years to find an incident that's barely related is wrong. Looking back a few days to find an incident that's EXACTLY the same as what's condemned in an angry blog is perfectly fair and relevant.

[DragonKnight]

maniac, the actual problem are people like you who are constantly trying to tell people what to say. You're always in blogs like this harping on what people say, or the character of the person saying it. You can't accept that people have the right to say whatever they want so you just come out and make sarcastic jabs against people and tell them what they should be talking about.

How about you worry about what you should be talking about and stop trying to tell people what they can and can't say just because your opinion about what they are saying is that it has no impact on gaming.

This is discussion, and discussion doesn't require your policing efforts.

[maniacmayhem]

Lmao,

I love it. You and Dedicated, two peas in a pod. So I shouldn't give my opinion or express my point of view in a blog you both publicly posted?
Is this what you're telling me?

Where's the discussion, there is no discussion here. It's just all of you high fiving each other and agreeing with what Dedicated wrote and b*tching on what the other fanboys do on this site. As soon as I state another opinion all of a sudden I want to shut you all up, I have a problem with you, I want to control what you say, you want me to stay out of your blogs, I'm attacking you, how can any discussion even start?

You are not looking for discussion you all are looking for agreements.

Maybe if you don't want people to comment or have a different view or opinion on your ideas or perceptions, maybe you guys should create a private room and invite only your like minded individuals to come read and share your own thoughts. I'm sure that will create great discussions and debates right?

"You can't accept that people have the right to say whatever they want so you just come out and make sarcastic jabs.."

WOW, this is seriously calling the kettle black. Dragon...THIS IS ALL YOU DO! You constantly abuse people and their opinions on this site. You pick apart every quote of a person's comment and proceed to call them names or make fun of what they said. Eeveryone of your comments is knee deep in sarcasm or insults.

[DragonKnight]

You're not giving your opinion maniac. You're coming here, just like you do to all blogs you don't like, and telling people what they should and shouldn't be saying. That's not an opinion, that's comment policing.

You want this site to be a certain way and so you will harp on specific comments or blogs and tell the people writing them what they should or shouldn't be saying because what they are saying doesn't jive with your sensibilities.

Can you show me anything that suggests I'm looking for agreements? Have you even read anything I've written and take a look at the comments I receive for what I say? Does it look like I get a lot of agrees maniac?

I say what I say because that's what my opinion is, that's what I'm thinking at the time, and no matter how much you wish you could force me to not say certain things, or try to make it so that people can only speak in a way you want them to, that's just not going to happen.

Get over yourself maniac, or at least get out and look what true comment censorship is like. If any of us were guilty of what you're claiming, then why are we commenting here where people can comment back and not commenting somewhere else where we get to control who can and cannot comment the way Anita Sarkeesian does on YouTube, Twitter, and Tumblr hmm?

Oh yeah, we're really trying to prevent people from disagreeing with us by posting our opinions on an open forum that everyone can see and reply to. Yep, that's not at all counterproductive to what you're claiming we're trying to do.

The fact that you seriously believe that, and that you seriously ignore your comment policing, is just so laughably ironic I don't know whether to facepalm or laugh.

[dedicatedtogamers]

@ maniac

"You are not looking for discussion you all are looking for agreements."

But...you're not discussing. At all. 95% of what you've written in this blog is off-topic, ad hominem attacks, related to the people who wrote the posts and not the posts themselves.

You couldn't discuss if your life depended on it. You have no point. You have nothing to say. You have no opinion, it seems.

And then - more logical fallacy - you say "If you didn't want to hear me talk, don't post a public blog". How cute. If you don't want to see our "fanboyism", don't visit N4G. Same "logic", amirite?

Go ahead. Reply. Say it. HUR HUR POT MEET KETTLE RIGHT?

Try to make an actual reply to the topic. Try to form a cohesive thought that goes beyond "you're not allowed to comment on this topic until you clean up your own behavior". I'd be thrilled if you could manage this. Please, contribute to the "discussion" you've worked so hard to derail. Make a single point about the topic without devolving into logical fallicies.

Try.

[maniacmayhem]

@Dragon
"You want this site to be a certain way and so you will harp on specific comments or blogs and tell the people writing them what they should or shouldn't be saying because what they are saying doesn't jive with your sensibilities."

Again, WOW! Seriously, this is all I ever hear from you. You accuse others of wanting this site to fit their agenda and accuse me plus others of trying to stop people from speaking their mind.

But at the same time you and Dedicated want TO STOP PEOPLE ON THIS SITE FROM SAYING "SONY TOO". You want people to stop bringing up Sony in relation to another company's bad press. You want them to stop talking about or discussing Sony's DRM plans only because YOU believe they never planned it. You want PC elitist to stop bringing up PC resolutions or anything PC related when compared to PS3/4. So basically you are stopping people from debating and forming arguments because you want them to stop.

And after all that you still have the nerve to tell me to get over myself??

I gave you all a specific link where Dedicated brought up a "Nintendo Too". The very subject you ALL agree should stop. He did this, TWO DAYS AGO! It's mind baffling, it really is.

@Dedicated
If I'm off topic Dedicated then please mark me Off Topic. Tell the mods/admins I'm not discussing the very issue you are raising and have them hide the comment if you truly think I am so grossly off topic.

Truth is I am on topic, and no matter how many times you and Dragon try and convince yourselves that I am off topic, or I'm attacking you, I'm following you, or I want to censor you, it's just not true. No matter how many personal attacks and tried assassinations it won't change the fact that the very thing you want to stop is the very same thing YOU ARE DOING.

That's the whole point, the point that seems to be flying over your head. My whole opinion on your blog is basically you (And Dragon, plus some others who left comments here) are complete and utter hypocrites as you leave comments or write these blogs specifically targeting other group(s)and you think you can absolve your bias by writing one line of your preferred company could be involved.
Then you turn around and do the same thing you complained about or want to stop.

I pretty much said this in all my replies to you. But it seems to not sink in as you keep harping on about me being off topic, deflecting and all these other accusations but never really seeing my point.

I'll say it again though, you want others to stop the Sony/MS/Nintendo Too comments or bringing up past events when related to current subjects. Then I suggest you stop yourself.

That's pretty much it since this is my last bubble. Look forward to reading more blogs from you and Dragon.

[loulou]

Don't even bother manic. It ain't worth it. You are out numbered and out gunned... This clown even has cgoodno giving him some back up (another blatant fanboy)

It will always be like this on here. Same idiots posting first for a well said and doing their best to chum up a console war.

The mods doing jack, and anyway not swallowing songs sword debubbled. Then like you said the same clowns writing their pathetic f--king blogs keeping the embers burning..

@ dedicated you of all the trolls telling someone that they are part of the problem.. For real??? All the drive by trolling you do and with your alt account Allformats smh

If you, dragon knight, abzdine, heavy, hatsune, the other troll with a Japanese name, enemy, nature of logic, dead rabbits and maria never came back, n4g would be 10 x better instantly.

I have mentioned just ten names, yet you idiots contribute what is arguably the worst to this gutter site.

[Christopher]

The problem is, people are blind. As a mod/admin, I get called a fanboy of all types weekly. It's part of the job. And, when people see my comments, they don't realize that it's focused only on part of the whole and not the entire product/company. No one cares about your actual history, no matter how much they say the token "looking at your comment history, I can tell you're a [insert console] fanboy". No one actually does this otherwise they'd see me and tons of others compliment and complain about pretty much everything under the sun.

From time to time, some things get discussed more. Ryse was a big hopeful for me and I commented on it often because of that. But, it was negative as none of what they were doing with Ryse was at all interesting or an advancement of the action concept. It was fraught with bugs, graphical glitches, and boring/repetive gameplay (don't get me started on "They're not QTEs"... yes they were). To people, this automatically labeled me an MS hater. No one looks at my comments about Forza or similar titles that I only have good things to say. No one sees me talk about how the hypervisor is awesome. They just see when you complain and roll with that.

I have a preference, but I have things I dislike about all products. But that doesn't mean I hate them as a whole.

My problems with the PS4:
- OS developers are lacking the skill of Microsoft's team
- Integration of PS3, PSVita, and PS4 is half-assed (can't see on PS3 what I can on PS4/PSV) and on PS4 it doesn't update automatically.
- Screenshots are not saved at full resolution or 100% quality
- No video editing/better control
- Still have app icons I can't completely delete or hideable section items.
- No customization of look/feel of UI
- PSN still suffers from downtime when many major "storefront" services of much larger design or similar have found ways to do updates without taking down the storefront or online capabilities
- Can't turn off light on DS4 (I'm mostly a nocturnal creature, so this gets really annoying for me)
- I don't like buying third-party exclusive content or timed elements

My problems with the Wii U:
- I don't want to game on a tablet (I already own two of those)
- The "technical" specs are subpar for this generation
- I don't care for Nintendo's 1st party offerings

My problems with the Xbox One:
- I don't want Kinect. I don't want to pay for it. I don't care if it's integrated. I don't want any of it at all nor will I support it.
- I don't like Windows 8 UI
- Problems getting games in native 1080p (shooters and action games specifically)
- RAM/processing designated for a feature I won't use (TV/cable box) can't be put back towards the OS or video games and is lost forever if you don't utilize it
- I don't like buying third-party exclusive content or timed elements

[dedicatedtogamers]

$3 per 'Agree', apparently. Sellout!

#XB1M13

Nah, I'm just messin with ya. That's the frustrating part. It's okay to have a preference. Heck, go ahead and hate something. They're just products, after all. But people get too emotionally wrapped up in the product to listen to any disagreement. I'm fine with people disagreeing with me. It happens all the time. But when people get it in their heads that anyone who doesn't like their favorite console has an "agenda" or is a "confirmed fanboy" it shuts down all legitimate conversation.

[Z501]

"you're not discussing. At all. 95% of what you've written in this blog is off-topic, ad hominem attacks, related to the people who wrote the posts and not the posts themselves"

THIS!

Ironically, maniac came into a "Sony Too" blog just to say dedicatedtogamers does it too. LoL!

[lawgone]

I agree there is nothing wrong with having a preference. Hating a console, that's fanboy territory. Speaking negatively about one console ad nauseam? Also fanboy territory.

[lawgone]

At cgoodno...I agree with you. I think you should make your list of problems your signature or something that can easily be pulled out next time you're called a fanboy ;)

[NYC_Gamer]

The bias bull crap is what ruins the whole gaming culture..We can't sit here and call out one company over issues but give free passes to the next because of blind loyalty/ emotional attachment..The whole gaming industry is rotten and it needs gamers who really care to speak up and address all the faults within the culture/hobby we all claim to enjoy.

[Saigon]

Wow, this is so true. I am glad someone actually stepped upped and stated this fact. Its sad that this is actually carried out at many different levels on various website; some much worst than others. I hate looking at articles that try and make a good point and looking at the responses there is always a 'Company' Too. As soon as Company A does something positive, the main bashers or fanboys are always quick to point out the negative of the past. I have to honestly state that I bash also, but I don't bring up past experiences that have no rime or reason to the related issue.

Example, on another site, I questioned MS (Major Nelson) response to the amount of consoles they sold at the end of November. I believe they were claiming 2 million or more world wide (after Major's statement regarding supply issues) and the numbers did not add up to me. I challenged the direct facts not what occurred in the past.

Some were pissed at me stating that I am still thinking of MS DRM issues and claiming that I didn't understand that the perspective of MS has changed since E3, so their sales should be great. Another stated that Supply and Demand didn't mean anything within those numbers form MS and Sony; all because I stated MS PR was bs but cleverly done. I done the same for Sony and Nintendo.

In this case it was a little different because Sony made their statement on the amount sold at that time, with supply constraints, made believing their numbers a little more reasonable. Major claimed they were sold out at most retailers, and I am sorry the numbers didn't add up, because of the amount of system I saw and claimed by gamers and media across the internet on the shelves of retailers, so I challenged the statement. I hate the 'Company' Too attitude.

On a fun note, as soon as I read this header/title the first thing I thought about was The Clipse song from a few years back called Mr. Me Too:

I know, I know, yep yeah, you too
Okay we get it, yep yeah you too
I know, I know, yep yeah, you too
Okay everybody meet Mr. Me Too

[MrBeatdown]

Spot on.

I actually saw this twice just today over on an Xbox forum.

Some clown attacks "Sony fans" who bitched about Dead Rising's 13GB update. He called them hypocrites. Why? PlayStation Plus games are big too.

Then someone posts about the Machinima thing. And in comes some moron who brings up some paid review thing pulled by Sony Pictures thing from 2002.

[Majin-vegeta]

Never in my life have i seen so many "TOO".In one place make stop ahhhhhhhhhhh :P.

OT:I agree.

[LoveOfTheGame]

Every side of the "console wars" does this tactic everyday. You can't go into a comment section without some one calling out the Xbox PRISM stuff, Wii U Sales, or PS Lies to gamers.

Most of the posts should be marked as off-topic or trolling but usually stay up, unless it's against Sony most of the time. If we want these types of useless arguments to stop we need to look no further than the administration of this site. It's poor beyond belief, most admins have their own agendas, and the only time they enforce the rules(or abuse their power) is when it suits them.

Now before I get taken Off-Topic by an admin, while discussing information relevant to the article, one thing to Dedicated. The Sony Too remark is annoying just as any "___ too" comments, but they do shed light on hypocrisy in certain uses. The only time during this MS/Machinima incident I have seen people use that argument is when the same people who praise Sony as the God of gaming say that this shows MS is "slimy" or "shady" and need to leave the console business. Yet Sony has performed the same "shady" marketing yet they don't say Sony should leave. It's just grade A hypocrisy. Should either company be justified in using these tactics? Hell no. Just treat each company equally and less of these needless arguments would arise.

[dedicatedtogamers]

"The Sony Too remark is annoying just as any "___ too" comments, but they do shed light on hypocrisy in certain uses."

Sure. As I pointed out in the blog, if the story is about Sony and Microsoft but Microsoft is the only one getting called out for it, then yeah, Sony Too is appropriate. If news breaks that Microsoft build their consoles with slave labor and Sony does it too, then, yeah, Sony Too is appropriate.

What is annoying is the need to have "balance" just for the sake of "balance". Sony was raked over the coals for rootkits, for Blu Ray trojan, for PSN being down, etc. So what is the value in bringing them up again in a completely unrelated topic? The only hypocrisy would be if Sony WASN'T called to task for those past events...except they were. You say Sony has performed some "shady" marketing yet no one says they should leave? Did you have INTERNET in 2005-2008? Sony was constantly mocked, called out for crap, there were endless "doooomed" and "the king has fallen" articles (like the famous tomato thrown on the PS3 EGM cover). Once again, it's only hypocrisy if they didn't get called out for it, but they certainly did.

There's no hypocrisy with Sony getting slammed for making such-and-such mistake years ago and then Microsoft getting slammed for making similar such-and-such mistakes now. In fact, it would be hypocrisy NOT to slam Microsoft for it, wouldn't you say?

[LoveOfTheGame]

It would be hypocritical of people only if they defend MS now while slamming Sony then. If they choose to remain quiet, then they have learned to accept that as a negative towards MS. It is a good start to being successful contributor to topics later on.

PS fans should not demonize Xbox just because they had it done to them in the past, that logic is what keeps this cycle of fanboyism going. For some reason people on this site can never see both sides of a situation. If you're a PS fan, understand that what MS was doing marketing wise is done by multiple companies including Sony. If you're a Xbox fan, understand that while multiple companies do this, it is not an ethical tactic.

Finally, we should not have balance for the sake of balance, just balanced playing fields. Neither company is inherently better than the other, only by a persons perception of who is better. If you hate MS, fine. Just don't demonize or harass someone who chooses Xbox over Playstation due to preference. DragonKnight is a good example of this(mostly lol). He dislikes MS very much but usually doesn't go out of his way to call someone a fanboy when they believe Xbox is a better choice.

[pyramidshead]

Sometimes I feel that the Sony Too thing comes from people who were so in bed with the way things were last gen and how it started; by Sony royally Effing up everything a lot like MS did this gen. I'm sure fanboys fought and fought but initially Sony fans got quite a beating for several years. Sony did claw back and I believe a lot began to forgive but some people stayed very high and mighty to one obvious side.

The 360 had a lot going for it and market share was lost so it could be described as the more popular console last gen.

But with XB1's fall from grace and being knocked off the pedestal as the popular console, like a lot thought it would be, I feel a lot of people just have a hard time accepting these failures for how MS took care of gamers last gen, arguably better than the competition, for a very thinly stretched 8 year console cycle. Therefore they have to delve into history and assume that what ever is wrong with MS and the industry surely Sony is equally at fault to some degree because of how they screwed up in the past.

[MidnytRain]

Blogs complaining about how absurd the userbase is will never get old. FYI, it'll probably suck forever. Seeing some familiar front page warriors here.

[coolbeans]

As old as it's getting, I honestly think there can be a chance for better dialogue about the subject; maybe I'm just being too optimistic for that.

"Seeing some familiar front page warriors here."

It's hilarious to stumble into some of these expecting their n4g status message to mention something about bubbles too. XD

[lawgone]

I've said it once and I'll say it again - if you hope to be a non-biased gaming journalist then you are doing a horrible job. You just rambled on and on about something that needs no more coverage. You're beating a dead horse simply for the opportunity to speak ill of Microsoft. Just go ahead and change your name to "DedicatedtoPS". I mean, 90% of the time you make a comment in the forums it's to praise Sony or put down MS. You're about as unbiased as Fox News and MSNBC. Just admit to what you are and I'll have no problem with your writing and I'll wish you success. But stop pretending to be neutral.

And before you say I'm just an Xbox fanboy and that's why I'm defending them, well, I purchased a PS4 last night from Gamestop. If you don't believe me I'll even upload the receipt for you.