John Carmack: It Doesn't Look Like Microsoft and Sony Will Embrace AMD Mantle For PS4 And Xbox One

"At the Nvidia G-Sync launch event, John Carmack spoke about AMD's low level API, Mantle. Unless you've been living under a rock, you'd know that Mantle is an application programming interface that will reduce CPU overhead by calling up to 9 times more draw cells when compared to other APIs like Direct3D and OpenGL. On top of that, Mantle will also allow direct access to the GPU and give developers more control over the hardware."

[Eonjay]

For shame!

Also, today is AMD's APU 13 an Sony is presenting its APU officially at the event at 9:30PST

[TIER1xWOLFPACKx]

What time is that UK time I'm to lazy to figure it out

[Eonjay]

Monday, November 11, 2013 at 4:30:30 PM GMT
So in 30 minutes

[PLASTICA-MAN]

Sorry but where to watch the keynote?

[black0o]

Consoles doesn't need it .. mantle is to gve PCs some of the consoles advantage

[FamilyGuy]

Yeah I'm confused why he thinks consoles would need/use mantle?

[someoneagain]

Xbox One and PS4 both have a low-level API, but they're incompatible with each other. Mantle would mean a single, low-level API across both consoles and PC. It'd make cross-platform development much easier.

It also has the possibility to be a better API. Microsoft made DirectX for its own OS, but OpenGL has its advantages.

[OlgerO]

What are they going to talk about ? all the specs of the PS4 and cpu clock ?

[Eonjay]

Its actually at 8:30PST
11:30EST

Dominic Mallinson, senior vice president, Software, Sony: "Inside PlayStation 4: Building the Best Place to Play"

Edit: Looks like I was wrong... the Playstation event is on Wednesday... sorry about that folks.

[Heavenly King]

Sony is showing it at NOV 13th. Check the schedule:

http://www.techpowerup.com/...

[Azurite]

It's consoles, they already get access directly to the hardware.

[mandf]

Whover disagreed with you has no clue. For PCs the OS is the bottleneck. That's why mantle was made. Consoles are made differently and have more access to the hardware.

[SnakeCQC]

Exactly this ^^^^^

Carmack is an nvidia guy anyway.

[Kleptic]

Articles like this take the context out of what Mantle is to begin with...

NO ONE ever said 'the consoles will use Mantle'...

Mantle is an API to do 'console like programming' on specific PC hardware...currently...that is not how it works...DirectX is more or less the current standard API for PC...and Nvidia/AMD both mimic low level 'tricks' with their driver software...but it does not offer low level access to any hardware...its advantage is that it works across all offered hardware, not that it makes any single one of them sing...

Mantle is entirely for PC development...the tie in with consoles comes from Mantle being able to quickly port back and forth between the two...Console code, in many situations, will be nearly identical to Mantle's instruction sets (even though its 'not' mantle specifically)...significantly cutting down re-writing code between the different platforms...

the catch is...it only works on specific gpu's...its a focused development platform for specific PC parts...and has a lot of common things with what the consoles will use programming wise...MUCH more so than that of DirectX...

[mandf]

@kleptic Thank you for you explaining it the way you did. People are looking at mantle all wrong. bubbles up to you

[wishingW3L]

Sony has "libgcm" but what does MS has? And that is the question... DX is not exactly low level and that's what the Xbox has. MS even forces devs to pass through it every time.

http://stackoverflow.com/qu...

http://www.tomshardware.com...

http://www.bit-tech.net/har...

[Kleptic]

but it doesn't have to be windows' version of DX...unified hardware allows them to make the changes necessary with that specific architecture...

whatever the name of the API used is...is irrelevent...it very much will be a low-level 'to the metal' API...very unlike what DirectX currently is for Windows based gaming...

and thats the point of Mantle...it has nothing to do with what the consoles use...its a console-like API for PC...nothing more...and shares instruction requirements like that of the consoles' APUs use...

[Ju]

Xbox is strictly DirectX (API) - without driver model. It sits direct on top of the HW. With some console specific extensions.

[Ashlen]

I believe that 50% of his statement is correct. Microsoft probably won't use it because they are so focused on DirectX. But I see no reason why Sony wouldn't embrace it, and they haven't in any form hinted that they won't.

[Kleptic]

Again, not trying to harp on this...but AMD has already stated numerous times that both MS and Sony will develop their own API tech for their hardware...AMD is only the supplier...Both Sony and MS have their own programming teams to do whatever they want with that hardware...

because of that...Sony and MS are NOT going to use some 3rd party API for their own devices...that is pretty much a given, which is why this article is kind of misleading in context...

Mantle is PC centric...nothing to do with what API's the two next gen consoles will use...But, as AMD built the APUs for the two consoles, they have a pretty good idea of their coding requirements as well (the gpus of both consoles use Graphics Core Next tech)...Mantle is a low level PC API that has common coding similarities with what the consoles will need...not identical, but MUCH closer in similarity than the consoles and full Windows DirectX...the reason they can achieve this lower level access is because its only designed for a very specific line of graphics processors (gpus based on the same Graphics Core Next tech that the consoles use)...it very focused API for specific PC parts...

it does give strong advantages between mantle for a PC game, and the same development on the two consoles...because of the similarities i mentioned earlier...Its not a direct port, but many aspects of a mantle based PC engine will translate with the console API's more directly than using DirectX would...in which case all kinds of things will need to be re-written...this gives reduced development time/cost on PC porting...the 2nd benefit of Mantle; at least according to AMD's press release about it in late September...

[Ju]

You can't port this "low level" API/app to XBox because it will require back porting to DX. Same for PS4. It it is a lean API, but totally incompatible. You have to support multiple render backends. It is more likely (and feasible) to port PC Dx to Xbox. PS4 will need a rewrite anyway.

Mantel is a strictly performance driven interface. It has nothing to do with making porting easier.

[Kleptic]

^sorry, but what you're saying goes directly against a majority of this article...

Mantle IS strictly for PC...but it is NOT strictly performance oriented...context is key, here...Porting will not be a direct affair, stuff will need to be re-written...however, techniques and strategies for using the console's low level API, and Mantle, will be mostly the same...

So a large chunk of the guess work for console/PC development between three different software stacks is eliminated...multiple renderers are still built, but the similarities are much higher than ever before...Coding something like a texture streaming system using a PS4's API, the xbox one's, and Mantle...will all result in different programming...but by using mantle; the coding process is fundamentally identical to that of the new consoles, saving development time and money...which is currently not the case for PC, as ONLY a high level API is used in the form of directx or OpenGL...

A better analogy would be: You're building 3 engines for 3 different cars...currently, 2 cars would use gasoline...1 uses diesel fuel...the end result is mostly the same (the engine's move the cars around)...but how they went about building the engines, and how the engines operate...are as far apart as could be...

With Mantle...you'd build three gasoline engines...each car still has its own requirements for output, so all 3 engines are 'different'...but, they all use the same fuel and are designed in very similar ways...

Perspective #2 clearly outlines how Mantle integrates with the two new consoles...and this is all just rephrased from AMD to begin with (you can find the original press release outline within the article...take note, also, that AMD never says anything like 'the consoles will use mantle'...which is why the comment from Carmack is misleading...

http://www.anandtech.com/sh...

[Volkama]

I don't think it offers any advantage over their existing APIs. Except possibly easier porting of PC games that use it I suppose.

[TIER1xWOLFPACKx]

Why would they need to use it, console API's have even more access to the hardware than what mantle will with the hardware in pc's

[SaveFerris]

Why wouldn't Sony and MS want to do this if it could lead to better games?

[wishingW3L]

not to better games but to faster development through all the systems.

[SnakeCQC]

console devs already have low level access

[neogeo]

Carmack=troll. What is wrong with his guy? Carmack programs garbage these days. Just look at what he has done in the last 10 years...nothing! Makes the pop up engine wow! Mantel is what will bring AMD back. Valve fully supports it because directX is BS and moving away from MS is key. This will save developers millions. People don't even understand what mantel is. It basically makes PC and console coding identical so sloppy ports will be a thing of the past. Pc ports to or from consoles will be a snap. I swear this guy is a fool. AMD has been working on Mantel for 4 years now with dice and other devs. The programmers at Dice poop all day on carmac and they are very excited for it. Battlefeild4 will run better on a mid end AMD 270x card then a high end Nvinida card do to efficiency.

[Tzuno]

What about some Quake and less about Hardware and software Mr.Carmack.

[Dread]

Of course we at n4g dont mind Carmack not embracing what Ms is doing, that is find, hate it all u want. But we draw the line at the plasytaiton 4 its pefect and anbyone who disagrees is a troll.

[TristanPR77]

From the guy that said the PS4 and xbone are identical.

Ujum

[GraveLord]

Do they even need it? Isn't Mantle basically there to mimic the console development environment and allow for more optimization?

Carmack is either trolling or just misinformed.

[majedx9]

DOOM 4 or STFU.