Microsoft’s Phil Harrison Explains that Xbox One’s Cloud Can Actually Improve Graphics

The cloud feature of Xbox One has been discussed quite actively by developers and fans, and one of the points of contention is if it can actually provide enough computational power to improve a game's graphics. Even the PS4's lead architect Mark Cerny explained that "Trying to boost the quality of the graphics, that won’t work well in the Cloud."

Yet Microsoft seems to disagree with that view, as explained today during his panel at Eurogamer Expo by Corporate Vice President Phil Harrison.

[NYC_Gamer]

Does MS have any GPU farms?if not then their cloud service won't improve anything graphic related.

[Abriael]

Computational power is computational power actually. It's not like CPU computations and GPU computations are completely separate by some firm divide. CPUs and GPUs simply are optimized for their specific purposes.

Not that I blindly believe him, just saying.

[darthv72]

Have a look at this: http://software.intel.com/e...

Or this: http://www.anandtech.com/sh...

The idea of cloud assisted graphics is not that far off.

[minimur12]

So when we don't have an internet connection, the graphics will looks X360? lol

[r1sh12]

@Abrial @Darthv72

Cloud GPU processing already exists in the form of encoding/decoding frames.

AMD can do both and process all GPU computations, its a server rack blade you stick in and good to go.
I use it as part of my job at a major European airport:

http://www.amd.com/uk/produ...

THe problem is bandwidth and whilst it is likely MS can do some processing remotely the issue they have is latency and managing to get it across from a server to the client console.
I know MS have a CDN (Content delivery network) that has insane speeds, but if the users internet bandwidth is low it completely defeats the point.
Not sure if compression will be used, but the tech is already there, the problem is internet speeds.
Which leads me to the next off topic point,
Majornelson would say "Oh you could take your account to your friends hosue, and play your games there - Digitally" BUt the issue I see in this scenario, if said friend has not installed the game, the game has be to be downloaded right.
How long will that take? 16+GB at least a few hours LOOOL.
The big issue for most of the world is internet speeds.

[dumahim]

@r1sh12

I believe MS has said you'll be able to play while the game is downloading in the background, much like the PS4.

[shoddy]

MS can be trusted

[UltimateMaster]

And clearly there won't be significant lag due to the amount of Mbps it would require to make such a thing happen.

Sony can't even release Gaikai in Europe because of low internet speed, let alone having Microsoft telling us it can increase graphics.

It could work on paper, but in reality, not really.

It's like how Sony's abandoning the 3G on their Vitas, it doesn't work as well as wi-fi and cost significantly more for the users and they aren't interested in paying that extra amount.

I could go off into detail how Internet Connection works on SmartPhone with their multiple channels, but it won't really matter since you don't get that much bandwidth usage in the first place and that's a perfect example how it works on paper but not in real life.

You'd need a 50Mbps connection speed, minimum, to play this without significant lag.
So forget your 6Mbps, it just won't work.
And 50Mbps is in hopes your internet speed Doesn't fluctuates and go lower than that.

[Omegasyde]

I work with with Cloud software and hardware like VMware and MS hyperV.

I will tell you write now, they are full of $%#%# as far as graphics are concerned,however both consoles are future proof if streaming is to be considered.

Microsoft will eventually release thier own streaming service much like Sony's with Gaikai. So in 5-6 years from now, you will be streaming your games. Ideally, this means everyone has to have a good connection speed, or > 300ms in latency for it to work "smoothly" especially for multiplayer. Think like Onlive.

Cloud computing can help with metrics and AI and can be used in innovative ways, but to tell you the truth we have been using the power of "teh clowd" for years now.

Example 1:
Insert favorite racing game
You compete against a ghost car of your friend's game. This data was uploaded from your friend's console to a server with how he exactly raced from time to path on track. This server then uploads the data to your console.

Example 2:
Comparing your progress and stats in GTA5 is another example or how the stockmarket changes based on the global community.

In the IT world, "Cloud" is just a fancy term for virtualization. The idea came from some sales person who wanted to describle an off-site server in a more tantaliyzing way for his/her sales pitch.

Similar examples: syngery=teamwork, New and Improved= upgraded, crowdsourcing = hiring consultants.

[LonChaneyTV]

minimur12 - "So when we don't have an internet connection, the graphics will looks X360? lol"

I don't think any xbox 360 game is comparable to ryse or quantum break.

----------

Anyways, just so you know Cloud computing is for future usage. we won't see the best of it until later on. right now it's just used as dedicated severs.

[UnholyLight]

I always said that this was something they have been briefly mentioning about the cloud since the Xbox One's reveal.

I feel like it's something that Microsoft would probably be able to accomplish to some degree down the road seeing as how Microsoft has the resources to make it happen.

In any case this is exciting news because it means that it's something Sony will likely become invested in too!

= Good for all of us gamers!!

[itBourne]

@Omega
Very well said man, was going to say something similar. Seen where a developer pointed towards matchmaking as an example of "cloud" computing lol.
Things are still a long ways off though as far as graphics, because then are devs going to make games scalable like pc games? If you dont have an internet connection you play on "low settings" if you do then "high settings"? Also the U.S. has a ridiculously awful internet base. In places like Korea sure no prob, streaming stuff is easy, but here is a much different story.

[nveenio]

I'll believe Cerny for now.

[dedicatedtogamers]

Where's the proof?

We have an alarming amount of fingers-in-ears-lalala going on in the gaming industry right now. No one wants to admit the obvious truth that Microsoft trying to smoke and mirror gamers, and the only people who stand up are instantly labelled as - obviously! - Sony fanboys.

Microsoft has made numerous lofty claims before (so has Sony, for the record, which is why I'm still leery of EVERY PS4 game Remote Playing on Vita smoothly) and they've lied before.

The proof so far is that virtually every next-gen multiplat game has been running on PC or PS4, not Xbox One. If their Cloud service is so powerful (of course, not available at launch, we must not forget) then by now they certainly have a proof of concept or a "prototype" server to show us these improved graphics, right? Right?

Where's the proof?

[mistertwoturbo]

Microsoft does everything for the interest of the consumers, they listen to feedback from their fans, and above all they never ever lie.

[pixelsword]

If the cloud actually works for Xbone, which game shows it off?

[corvusmd]

@minimur12 Seeing as we haven't seen any XB1 games running with the cloud hooked up....it'd look like we've seen them demo'd...so about the same level as PS4. Cloud computing would only advance it from there. Not being connected wouldn't downgrade the existing hardware to 360/Ps3 days.

[Kayant]

Maybe he's referring to it in an indirect manner as due to the offloading to the cloud more power will be available locally to do other things.... If not I don't totally believe it until it's shown in a game because things like nvidia's grid/amd's radeon sky/onlive/gaikai are all mainly GPU based.

If this is all true then it will must likely be only used in MP only games like titanfall I don't see this working in SP as they don't have mandatory drm anymore and not everyone wants to play a single-player and having to be tethered to the internet a.k.a Sim city

[Gamer666]

You don't need GPU farms... Cloud processing is about distributed, coordinated processing, it does not matter what you are processing.

It is just taking the WELL PROVEN concept of distributed processing and focusing it for real time uses on a console.

[P0werVR]

@Kayant

"If this is all true then it will must likely be only used in MP only..."

No kidding Sherlock!

@NYC_Gamer

GPU farms?!

CPU computational power is just that...CPU, computational, power! It's not complicated

Azure will progress throughout it's existence therefore getting powerful overtime.

[GutZ31]

Is everyone neglecting to talk about latencies on purpose?
Lets say you do offload, say 10% of CPU burden, we will call it non-essential physics, the best internet connection is usually around 55ms. thats 55 milliseconds one way, at ideal internet latencies. At 180 milliseconds, lag/latency becomes noticeable to people with fast reflex's, or professional gamers. Now, the average latency in the USofA is about 155ms for the west coast, and 200ms roughly for the east coast(stats show higher latency at 261ms). Note, these are averages, meaning you could experience much less, or much worse in the form of lag no matter where you are in the US at any given time, and thats before you add communication with offsite servers in the mix. And for the Europeans, your internet is ever more finicky than ours.
Anyway, back to that 10%.
After about 150ms, the data has been sent to the servers for processing. For the hell of it, lets just say its super fast at doing the calculations, so, 20ms? well, it still needs to send the data back to the user, so add another 150ms to that, you get 320ms, a very noticable lag.
I am being a little critical here, but look it up, the math isn't false, it is what we deal with everyday, and sometimes worse.

If the infrastructure isn't there, we are all going to be disappointed in the technology coming from both sony and microsoft with the cloud.

[malokevi]

It's easy to dismiss cloud processing on the basis of latency... until it's your life's work to solve the dilemma. There are brilliant mind working tirelessly on these issues as we speak.

you don't think there's a solution? We'll, then you underestimate the ingenuity of human kind.

I choose to look forward with cautious optimism.

[GutZ31]

@malokevi
There are extremely talented individuals out there working on brilliant ways of getting around bottlenecks, and latencies. The problem lies in corporate interests.
We are force fed data limits by companies like Time Warner, or Cox at fixed rates across all companies. They basically agree to not be competitive with prices. This leads to a saturated market that everyone has the same model, with no real benefits, or reason for the caped data speeds.
The nation, nay, I say the world is capable of gigabit internet connections for all, but the only company even trying to shake things up is google.
Latency is always an issue. Even when you have the best minds working on this, you will always have the problem of upload/download inequality by todays standards.

I'll put it this way;
I don't trust companies to do good by consumers, I trust consumers to make right what companies do wrong.

I expect whining and hateful remarks made at sony and MS for failed promises, but hope to be proven wrong.
I rather expect failure, and get success than expect success, and get failure.

[malokevi]

Thats why I say cautious optimism. I don't expect success, but I refuse to dismiss everything I've heard in favour of a pessimistic standpoint.

"latency" is not the be-all-end-all death of cloud processing. There are other, clever ways that developers are learning to leverage the tech to positive effect. No reason why it can't work for certain applications.

I don't expect real time by the millisecond processing. Cautious optimism implies realism. I have faith in the ingenuity of greater minds than mine, supported by a pocket book that could send men to mars. Assuming you are able to maintain a decent connection, I see no reason to deem this stuff as anything but positive.

[Blaze929]

Microsoft: Something we designed, know about, and worked closely with can do the statement we're saying it can do.

N4G: I'm just a gamer, not employed by anything even closely related to this field. It won't work! Foolish Microsoft

...N4G users definitely know best.

[christian hour]

Right, because people who use N4G are just N4G users and nothing else and couldn't possibly know anything about anything.

There is a wide variety of people on this site with a wide range of expertise in different areas. But one thing we all have in common is we're all using the internet. We all know what latency is. We all know how lag comes about. or at least I hope we all should.

Offloading graphical processes and physics to the cloud works in theory, but internet speeds and bandwidth are where it can and will fall short. Sony have a cloud service too, and the only reason their not tooting about how its going to improve graphics is because they aren't looking like the weaker console to the consumer right now so they don't need to grasp at straws.

If anyone calls me a fanboy for saying that then all you're doing is showing your ignorance, your denial and your severe insecurity that the product you plan on purchasing might not be as good as the product somebody else is planning on purchasing. oh noes! /sarcasm

[BlackTar187]

Don't mind Blaze

[AngelicIceDiamond]

@Blaze Lol that is true.

The funny thing is Sony fans are super defensive and reassuring themselves and other fanboys that MS is lying and then have the nerve to say "Its fake" and "not real."

Then they try and pretend like they know what they're talking about, when they don't. They're scared because what if MS actually achieves this goal. That's the question here.

They say "Well I haven't seen it, therefor its fake and PR crap."

Yeah because MS works on super insecure, super defensive fanboys that damage controls every single major Xbox article all time lol.

It sounds cool but I have to see for myself. You don't see me sweeping it under a rug and calling it fake like everyone doing here.

If something like this sounds cool why not get at least cautiously excited for it?

Oh because Sony's using cloud for something totally different and MS is using cloud to supposedly add extra horse power to game development.

Picture this for 2 seconds fanboys, Sony says. "We're using cloud power to enhance games." See how cool that sounds now? just imagine, its not so bad now is it?

Have fun and stay in damage control fanboys.

[BlackTar187]

Angelic you seem rather defensive.

Just a observation.

"Have fun and stay in damage control fanboys." You talking to yourself in a mirror?

I'm pretty sure Sony people have commented more then once on that even the gaiki thing is up in the air due to bandwidth limitations. You just gonna pretend people haven't said this multiple times?

The facts about Cloud is that we do not as a planet have the infrastructure up to do the things MS is saying are possible. MS does not have a secreat sauce unreleased in tech journls. I mean this is FACT. Now what they are saying in theory will be possible later when we get a stronger build country wide - Worldwide but stop pretending like people are only calling it PR nonsense because of fanboy loyalty. To do so is being nieve.

The real question should be that if MS is far enough along to tout such a feature and we are less then 2 months from release show it do something to prove it. It isn't so hard to do so if you have tangible substance to do so. The wait till the console comes out mentality is just a form of business that has gone on for decades and the success rate is very low.

If MS introduces this feature in 5-6 yrs after release is that a period in which you can say i told you so? No well i hope not.

[buynit]

@christian

So what are you saying that you know it cant and will never be done? Are u that high up in the food chain or have the knowledge to truly know it cant ever be done?

Im not going to act like I know about thia but plenty of ppl are saying it works on paper and thats from the same ppl saying It cant be done, sounds to me like its close to happening so shouldnt we embrace it and wish them the best of luck on getting it done instead of acting like a bunch of little brats all cause sony isnt trying to do it or saying that it can be done..

[AngelicIceDiamond]

@Blacktar "Have fun and stay in damage control fanboys." You talking to yourself in a mirror?

Lol What Please explain this, if you can that is?

listen, what if Sony was doing the exact same thing as MS, and MS wasn't opting to such a thing what would you say? Honest question.

Would your tone change. Would you hype it up like most fanboys would on there said console? Which is a natural reaction.

"I'm pretty sure Sony people have commented more then once on that even the gaiki thing is up in the air due to bandwidth limitations. You just gonna pretend people haven't said this multiple times?"

Obviously that's why I said its wait and see and I'm CAUTIOUSLY optimistic.

Your comparing Gaikai to something different here but I do believe Sony and MS will have the same problems with bandwidth. But MS has servers in just about every city across america.

"but stop pretending like people are only calling it PR nonsense because of fanboy loyalty. To do so is being nieve."

Well who else is complaining about this? Calling it fake and not real? MS fans, regular users, Sony fans or somewhere in between? Who is it?

"The real question should be that if MS is far enough along to tout such a feature and we are less then 2 months from release show it do something to prove it."

MS hasn't even off the the Dashboard that runs 4 apps at a time. People are still looking forward to that. Like I said they'll show it off when they're ready to. BTW if MS does show off the cloud. What will you be looking for? And how will you compare it and what will you compare it to? If MS shows an example or tech footage that won't be enough for you and "others" because you wanna see real stuff that you can't even begin compare it to anything.

[BlackTar187]

Angelic,

First off stop pretending like you know me or how i operate in life. I work for a VAR (Value added Reseller)in the bay area. We sell HW and SW and Engineering support. As a base requirement for this field since we are a small business you have to understand what Virtualization, Cloud Computing and Networking are at the base level. I'm not some person who knows everything about it but im also not some person who knows nothing in order for small businesses like ourselves to succeeded we provide VALUE on all levels and knowledge at least in base form is required. That said i don't expect you to believe me nor do i care.

"listen, what if Sony was doing the exact same thing as MS, and MS wasn't opting to such a thing what would you say? Honest question. "

Honest Answer I wouldn't be pumping up a feature i know is not infrastructuraly available to over 90-95% of the US population. And 95%-97% of the developed world. So honest answer is a wait and see approach. Which is only partially what you are seeing. You're banking on this idea to bring something at a base customer level when we have nothing on this actually being fee sable at this current time with ISP restrictions and lag delays. So no I would not be using this as a reason to Purchase and am not with the Xone I will buy it for games like i have with every system that isn't named WiiU(I will get one) to date for the last 20+ yrs.

"Would your tone change. Would you hype it up like most fanboys would on there said console? Which is a natural reaction. "
Why would i hype something up that technically sin't realistic yet in the current set up across america as a whole? This is the same question worded differently as above please see above.

"Obviously that's why I said its wait and see and I'm CAUTIOUSLY optimistic" Okay you are being very casual with your definition of Wait and see and ho wit applies to you in your use.

"Well who else is complaining about this? Calling it fake and not real? MS fans, regular users, Sony fans or somewhere in between? Who is it? " It's all of the above. The xbox only fans are not all in agreement in using this as a reason to hype a system some of them me included are not so deluded to think MS has a secret sauce. Which btw in this day and age is just almost impossible to have. SOny fans sure yea okay them and so do people who have no interest in video games or the market in general. The difference is only 1 group of people are choosing to ignore it and our somehow trying to convince themselves of a secret sauce.

Last Question:
Ms hasn't shown its Dashboard? The relevancy here is very low considering Dashboards don't sell systems. Games do and they showed those. Cloud Computing at the level MS is saying would too the problem is MS most likely isn't at that level yet so their sellign you an idea that is still a work in progress. Thats a problem. Games are also works in progress but they are built on a architecture that is set in stone. Cloud computing has no such advantage since the majority of people (HUGE) do not have the proper ground work laid in their area to use such features.

[Omegasyde]

Hey Blaze, I actually do work with virtualization and I can tell you most of what Phil said is funky BS. Read above.

Stop drinking the MS koolaid.

[badkolo]

its funny isnt.

[rainslacker]

@Angelic

OK, lets put fanboyism aside for a moment. Lets put console preference aside for the moment.

Lets say, some random engineer from a reputable company known to make strides in the computer engineering field, or their PR lackey, came out and said they could offer this big improvement in game performance.

What would be your first response?

Mine, being that I have used the net since 28.8K modems would be, "what about latency".

What would be your second response should they offer more detail, without any quantifiable proof?

Mine would be, "OK, well the principle is sound, distributive computing has been around for a couple decades now, but how about all the things that hinder actual implementation....lets say...latency and the extreme amount of resources required to run such an application on a large scale."

What would be your third response should they just keep repeating it offering examples of things that are already done which don't actually involve improving the game in the manner being spoken of, such as matchmaking or dedicated servers.

Mine would be..."do you really think I'm a idiot?"

See, a lot of us have common sense. I'm personally a computer programmer, and have a decent understanding of network infrastructures, and more so cloud computing. For others on here, there have been numerous articles which discredit everything that MS has proposed as being well into the future. Even NVidia which showed a real world prototype of the exact application MS is trying to say they can deliver said that it's well into the future, and prone to issues such as latency and cost, and their system is specifically designed to deliver such content.

Either way, it doesn't take a degree in computer engineering, or being completely up to date with every advance in the last couple years to be able to use a modicum of critical thinking skills.

Why do we have to be fan boys when we use our common sense, and take the "Put up or shut up" attitude? Why are all of us dismissed because there are those that act they way you describe?

The answer to that is, fanboyism. It's easier to dismiss an argument than address it, and there is no easier way to discredit another person on the internet than pulling out the bias card. It lacks imagination, and it's getting really old.

I believe that if you can't offer a counter-argument that discredits what the "Fan boys" keep saying, then it is entirely possible that they may be right. They could still be wrong, but it's not like I see droves of MS supporters coming in and offering real evidence that what MS proposes is possible right now, or even in the immediate future. Even MS can't seem to provide that in even a prototype form. I would think that if that evidence existed, we would have seen it offered up at some point, by at least one MS fan.

[corvusmd]

Christian, you're a retard. Sorry but flat out you are...true, Sony has "cloud" but "cloud" is just a general term used for functions done outside your system on a server. The Sony version of Cloud is roughly equivalent of what X360 calls cloud. The reason Sony isn't talking about this, is cause Sony doesn't have this. You clearly need to learn more before you pipe in about this topic.

[xtremeimport]

The cloud is the most interesting thing about xb1 for me.

Interested to see how they utilize it. Curious, could Sony not add a similar type of feature in the future to the PS4? Or is it something that the system itself isn't built to use?

[xtremeimport]

classic. Ask a question and get dislikes...what? lol

[BoriboyShoGUN]

Sony has already stated they could do the same thing, but they dont see it being very beneficial. I prefer the power to be in the hardware myself. With all the lag we had to deal with this pass gen now u want to get your graphical power from a server as well????How are games going to look offline?? Just too many questions on this whole cloud service!

[Omegasyde]

Question: Could Sony not add a similar type of feature in the future to the PS4?

Answer: Most definately yes. Gaikai is streaming data in realtime over the internet(the "cloud") to an endpoint.

In the article, Phil mentions how data could be uploaded and downloaded from end users to "dynamically" change the game.

Cloud gaming has already been happening for a while. A really good example would be a game like MAG where 1 of the three factions win and it effect other matches going on.

Techincally, dedicated servers are also using "teh pow3r of the clowd". Another great example is Battlefield. The game "hub" is on a host with decent processing power and resources. Each player is basically sending controller inputs which includes thier actions. THe hub interpets these actions, and reflects the changes to all the other gamers.

[xtremeimport]

So when people say that Titan fall isn't coming to PS4 because it doesn't utilize the cloud...thats basically hogwash?

Or a legitimate cause for concern?

[BoriboyShoGUN]

Any game that saids "they need the cloud" i would say is hogwash!I tell you one thing if it doesnt work as advertised day one Xbox guys are going to flip out! Especially if the games are looking better on the PS4.

[xtremeimport]

@boriboyshogun

You actually think they would admit to that?!
Not a chance...lol

[zippycup]

its not that its not feasible its just that if company's start using this to make graphics better they will get lazy and start doing evrything on the cloud but tell me this what happens when the servers go down or my internet goes down will i still be able to play or will game look like crap ??

[Magicite]

I think this video explains it all:
http://www.youtube.com/watc...

[Clunkyd]

Dont you need like a fast and stable internet speed connection in order for this to even have a chance of working?

I highly doubt anyone has that.
I get 15Mbps on a good day so im sure this wont work for me.

[AlphaJunk]

I think that is the most "tech-ignorant" comment I've seen. wow

[Beastforlifenoob]

You can use any type of memory (RAM, VRAM) even storage, so if they had a bunch of massive hard-drives they could use it as RAM or VRAM since they are all just differnent types of memory, albiet one is short term and the other is long term, but theoretically all they would need are servers with large hardrives and plenty of RAM and they could use this for whatever purpose they wish.

I'm still going with PS4 but I fear the next generation may be the most money grabbing greedy generation of gaming yet to come.

[Beastforlifenoob]

Haven't YOU kids ever heard of Pager files, they are basically files allocated on your hardrive that are activated once you run out of RAM and use a portion of the hardrive as RAM.

[SegaSaturn669]

What I really want Phil Harrison to explain is:

Where his hair went!

[TheGamingArt]

This can't work. The bandwidth needed for fast calculation, this won't work. The ONLY way this can work is just streaming the damn game which ISN'T what they're advertising. That's an Onlive/Gaikai feature (not something new, not tossing some workloads to a cloud server). Microsoft is spewing bs.

[iamnsuperman]

The fact they have yet to show a difference should speak volumes. If they wanted to make this point they should show a tech demo (a tactic used since the dawn of consoles to show a feature). A game running without the cloud and A game running with the cloud.

Talk is talk and like you said everyone is picking up on the bandwidth issue with such a move. Yet Microsoft have chosen to ignore this with their explanation. It comes off like they think we are idiots

[v6volume]

A tech demo running on an actual Xbox One

[caseh]

There's nothing ruling out that cloud based solutions could facilitate background activities in some games like weather or environment conditions.

Every little mundane task that is taken from the console frees it up to improve on other aspects.

Just something to think about ya know.

[warczar]

Sounds like all the stuff Forza is missing. No weather or night driving. Wouldn't Forza be the perfect game to show off the power of the cloud? Instead we have to trust the word of a microsoft yes man.

[Bolts]

The reason is simple. It's a scam. If cloud rendering have any real tangible benefits in terms of performance and image quality then the tablets will be doing it.

[Izzy408]

You must know everything then. Are you an egineer working at MS? Are you an expert in cloud computing? Because people have NEVER in history figured out how to solve or improve something right? Just because Sony hasn't figured out a way to do it, and PS fanboys want the cloud to fail, doesn't mean MS hasn't already solved the problem.

[LogicStomper]

Scam - A dishonest scheme; a fraud.

So how exactly is this a scam? Are we paying Microsoft money specifically for this cloud feature? No. When we pay for Xbox Live Gold, we want the online gaming services. We're not subscribing just to use the cloud. So you just failed at a simple concept, it's not a scam.

[TheGamingArt]

@Izzy408

As a software engineer, all because something is advertised doesn't mean it's plausible. Yes, innovation breaks new ground every day. But on a technical scale, this LITERALLY isn't feasible. The bandwidth between the graphics card and CPU is very very very very very very fast. In order to do cloud computation, you would have to predict EVERYTHING that needs to be rendered and stream it. You can't just toss data for rendering purposes back and forth. That's not how this work. And predicting that type of data ahead of time, simply not logical to even try since everything is meant to be real time. This is literally BS and MS's way of calming everyone down over the numerous hiccups they've shown the public.

[Mike134nl]

Streaming full games cost more bandwidth compared to simply using the cloud for calculations and sending the 'answers' of those calculations to said device. This however does mean that fast calculations will not be offloaded to the cloud but only slower calculations such as AI.

Streaming services such as gaikai require more bandwidth than what Microsoft is doing at the moment.

[DragonKnight]

Not only this is pure PR garbage that isn't based in reality, but even Microsoft knows that something like that isn't happening any time soon. Yusuf Mehdi said as much himself.

"The challenges there are latency in particular and then some of the bandwidth. So you can do game trials and game demos, but to do full games, where you are not at a disadvantage to your friend who is playing locally, and that’s a big barrier if you’re a gamer, that’s still going to take a bit of time technically. I say I’m long-term bullish, but short term, I think it needs more work."

http://www.dualshockers.com...

Phil Harrison needs to just shut up. Cloud computing is this gen's 4D, 120 FPS, blast processing, toy story graphics PR that is never going to happen. Count on it.

[caseh]

Blast Processing for the win!

[solidjun5]

While I was reading the last phrase, I was hoping you ended it with "deal with it." lol.

[BallsEye]

FFS man... watch the damn nvidia presentation..
IT WORKS
http://www.youtube.com/watc...

Geez you n4g techs are getting annoying. Watch the vid and then make another comment that it is impossible.

[DragonKnight]

So it's your contention that a video that seeks to make the claim that cloud enhanced lighting exists (meanwhile no information is given about the conditions of the testing, such as network connection speed etc...) is the same as the cloud making one Xbox One as powerful as 3 Xbox Ones?

[BG11579]

In case you didn't saw Kayants reponse :
"Nvidia Cloudlight is also a tech demo, used GPU's for the rendering and was done in July 2013 in a controlled environment.

So when exactly will MS's work? 2 years? 4 years?? Also it doesn't go in line with what Yusuf Mehdi has said before as DragonKnight pointed out earlier ---> http://n4g.com/news/1362334... "

[Funantic1]

@BallsEye. That's a great video. I had to save it to prove a point in future debates. It clearly shows that cloud computation can free up resources on the hardware. Mark Cerney should even watch this video. He obviously was trying to downplay cloud enhanced graphics and has never seen 300,000 servers at work. PS fanboys will be in denial still.

[BallsEye]

@DragonKnight

Ah the denial...Did you even watch the video?? It shows real world conditions and up to 500ms latency. Thats answer to your network conenction. Since I travel around the world a lot I had plenty of different connections. from 1 mbps to 100 mbps. On slowest connection possible in asia (shitties providers ever) I had maximum of 340ms to other side of the world. This video does not seek to make a claim, this video is a proof made by Nvidia one of 2 biggest gpu tech(and more) companies out there. For sure they know what they are doing, and got more credibility than a random dude on n4g, such as you. Cheers!

[DragonKnight]

@BallsEye: I did watch the video. The answer to your comment was given to you by BG11579. What I want to know is why you avoided my question.

Is it your contention that that video correlates to one Xbox One being as powerful as 3 or more Xbox Ones?

[Edward75]

@ballseye.
Bub up.
I never commented to much about the cloud processing because I was unsure about it technically being viable. That video should be proof to anyone who thinks that cloud processing can't help in the future.

Maybe there is something to this "cloud" stuff.

People really need to watch this video.

[rainslacker]

Perhaps you should read the tech papers on that video before you start putting it out there as proof.

http://graphics.cs.williams...

Biggest thing to point out.

"While design of rendering pipelines for PCs and consoles is reasonably well understood, design of Cloud pipelines is in its infancy.[In relation to asynchronous graphics processing]"

Note the word infancy. That means barely off the ground. MS is touting this as something for the here and now, or the very near future. Go through and look at the hardware required to run that for just 50 different clients, and note the drastic drop off of quality as more users are being processed.

Most people aren't saying it isn't possible, they're just saying it isn't going to be what MS says it will be any time soon.

What NVidia achieved in this demonstration is impressive. You would think that MS, being the apparent forerunner in delivering this technology into the home, could provide a suitable demonstration of their own.

Point of fact...
NVidia hasn't spent months saying how they're going to revolutionize cloud assisted graphics processing, they did the work, and put out a technical demo of it. They showed(or at least pointed out) it's limitations. They didn't use it as a selling point, because it's nowhere close to being consumer ready.

If MS wants people to believe them, if MS wants people to take them seriously on this, then they should take an example from NVidia on this. Surely by now they have similar tech demos and white papers available internally.

What they're doing is trying to get people to believe it's possible. It's PR hype, and I say show me proof and make me a believer.

NVidia in it's own reports says that there is still much work to do to make what they're showing a viable, working, consumer level solution. Now, I don't know about you, but I would take NVidia's claims about graphics processing in the future over MS any day.

[imt558]

I bet that Phil has no idea what is the purpose of cloud. Such a bullshit from Phil's mouth. God damn!

[Beastforlifenoob]

GUYS,
GDDR5 isnt "BETTER" than DDR3, GDDR5 has been around since 2008 and is based on DDR3 RAM but simply has more graphical capabilites. Its better for graphics but not for raw computation power especially considering GDDR6 and DDr4 are coming to PC next year.

Xbox one sucks but dont try and confuse matters with this majical "GDDR5 goodness". Also cloud does not need to be running massive quad titan SLI PCs all they need is a TONN of pagerfiles and ram. Not saying the xbox one is better, there business practices are questionable, but you shouldnt jump the gun, I know im going with a PS4/PC combo next year, PS4 for exclusives and PC for epic graphics.

[creatchee]

I'm sure that it *CAN*, but real world, consistent performance on a massive scale (taking into account multiple users with varying connection qualities) remains to be seen.

Still, it would be awesome if this works.

[ravinash]

It worked well for sim city.

[DragonKnight]

That wasn't graphics enhancement, that was feature enhancement. The cloud computations for Sim City were also bull because it was proven that you can play the game entirely offline without noticing any difference in your game.

[creatchee]

@DragonKnight

Exactly. SimCity's connectivity had nothing to do with cloud benefits and everything to do with DRM.

[ravinash]

"below you can see a picture of one of the massive server farms that will offer their CPU power to the Xbox One’s cloud".

...Or it could be a stock photo, which is more likely.

[DragonKnight]

Agreed. Plus, the server farms aren't JUST going to be used for Xbox One. Microsoft's Azure service will be for everything they have Windows 8 on as well such as phones, tablets, and PCs. Microsoft never mentions this when they are talking about the "Powah of da Cloud" with the Xbox One, but they didn't invest in that many servers just for the Xbox One.

[bigboirock]

im pretty sher they said they had over 300,000 servers for xbox one many times

[christian hour]

Bigboirock, you need to read up on what a virtual server is and start realizing that Microsoft love being vague to make something seem different/better than what it actually is, which is exactly what they're doing with all this cloud nonsense too.

[rainslacker]

Given the state of what major investors seem to think of the Xbox line, I doubt any of it was specifically put up for Xbox use. Of course, none of it is specifically for Xbox use, and obviously there is a limit on the number of resources available to that division of MS on their servers....not unlike every single other client on their servers has a limit on how much they are allowed to process.

It is nice allocating resources dynamically though. Keeps resources from going to waste. Azure itself is a pretty impressive cloud system.

[weirdo]

i smell sh1te

[devwan]

Microsoft can't even make Kinect work reliably and without lag and they want us to believe xbox one graphics can be boosted via the cloud? smh

[MethCupcakes]

Oh boy, here we go again. Seriously MS get off the stuff.

[The Captain]

Coming from a guy who stated the 2005 KZ demo was in real time..... I would take what he says with a grain of salt.

[DragonKnight]

Not to defend him, but if you're talking about KZ2, the final product looked BETTER than the demo. So, there's that.

[ape007]

lol

[SignifiedSix91]

Youre high if you think the final product looked better than the tech demo. Not even close!

[nix]

^^^

i think the 2007 E3 video of KZ2 wowed everyone. every press who made issues out of the 2005 video hid their faces under the carpet. that moment when they touch down and it smoothly moves to FPS view was brilliant.

here's how they made it.

http://www.youtube.com/watc...

[The Captain]

No, you are incorrect....

[DestinyHeroDoomlord]

Back too the garden you graphic hoë's!

[schubacca]

He is not disagreeing with Cerny's assessment. CPU resources earmarked for AI could be offloaded to the Cloud. This would free up the CPU for more graphic rendering tasks.

Of course, you would have to be online for this to happen.

[THC CELL]

What means to get the best out of Xbox will always have to be connected ffs people are too thick to realize Xbox one is underpowered and then u have to get a much better connection as well as pay for Xbox live to enjoy the console at full power. Stick with ps4 at least developers will benefit less hassle and gamers can enjoy a dedicAted machine not a half baked rush money Grabbing xbone. For the record. I no gaikai will do something similar but Sony Are not forcing it on us, at below I mean cloud gaming. We will se. Games streamed to ps4 using gaikaI. By forcing oh buy this game at full price and oh to get the best out of it pay for broadband upgrade to live and boom full benefit. People without connections are going to be paying full price for half baked games.

[MethCupcakes]

Okay, I wish I revoke my agree. I agreed with you until you edited, changed your vision and started flinging FUD for agrees.

[rainslacker]

Big publishers will be doing all that themselves with or without MS help. It's not hard to see the obvious signs that publishers are trying to force connectivity to offer "improved" features.

EA has even said it won't release games without a connected component. Expect over the next few years for games to become less and less when offline, and more and more features hidden away behind online functionality in the guise of improvements.

If you thought this gen of putting MT on things that used to be unlockables in a game, wait until everything is now behind covert DRM.

[Raider69]

Bunch of liars.

[BG11579]

The quality of the graphical improvement of xbone's games thanks to the Cloud will be the same as the quality of Microsoft conference's live-streaming in which it was re-announced...

[gaelic_laoch]

I honestly cannot get my head around how the Cloud can drastically improve graphics? Maybe AI but will the xbone end up just like Onlive by ending up just a game streaming device?

[Shakengandulf]

Yeah.. I don't fully understand it either. How do you send data over the network to improve visuals in the fraction of a second when it is needed?

[schubacca]

Read the article. AI and like data will be sent to the cloud, making CPU room for graphics....

[bigboirock]

these kids dont read theres many other comments just like this one

[Idba]

Does that mean that people who play offline will have a worse experience than those who play online?

If MS said this in the start i think more people whouldn't be so aggressive towar the 24 -hours check in.

[stuna1]

You 're comment is more true than you realise! I think people need to pay close attention to Phil's claim. This is another approach to the always online scenario!

Like it was stated above, does this mean that those who are not connected to an always online signal mean that they get a less graphical experience!? If what Phil is saying is true, they would. Microsoft is once again trying to sell the notion that always online is mandatory! It's just a lot more subtle.

I don't know if what they say is true... One way or the other! All anyone can go by is what they see, and in my opinion they have shown nothing to support their claims! Sony have shown their Giakia service to work, their cross play to work, and their Vita TV to work, why is Microsoft being so elusive and secretive as to whether their service works!? Especially considering the position they have placed themselves in.

I really believe this is just a prelude to Microsoft reverting back to past practices, and considering people have heard it from the horses mouth where Microsoft has went on record to state that their original vision is still viable and they are committed to it's implementation is just one of many signs that DRM as well as other restrictions are just on hold.

[DragonKnight]

This is just further indication that always online is coming back, like you said, to the Xbox One as soon as MS can weasel it back in. Trust me, it'll be in a new EULA in the future and Phil Harrison is just the first to try and convince people that online is needed and cloud computing is why.

Praying on people's tendencies to want to have the better experience than others they know is sleazy but "smart" business. MS is going to let the blind Xbox fanboys who believe in this garbage to influence the people who may not know so much about it until BAM, always online supported by the ignorant.

How is Microsoft good for gamers at all?

[pyramidshead]

lol wow. I guess he had nothing else to talk about.

[Golden_Mud]

Your right Microsoft but holding out the GPU in the cloud needs some more time , meaning wait 20 years and you'll see people praising your technology (or just say "Sony did it first")

[sandman224]

So that's where the graphics come from......It's really in the clouds. Why would they put a GPU/CPU in the consoles when it's all in the cloud. Nice try Microsoft.

[gaelic_laoch]

Exactly, all we will need then is smart tv's with access to the cloud and we could all play graphically cutting edge games!

Until then I would want all I need in the box I pay 400+ for!

[christocolus]

man ms is really spending big on their online infastructure....phil also states you can record video commentary along with the game clips...nice

www.vg247.com/2013/09/26/xbox -one-dvr-features-let-you-recor d-video-commentary-to-share-wit h-game-clips/

[DragonKnight]

I see you're used to posting links on Youtube.

[warczar]

I think they have spent a lot more on PR.

[Sethry101]

I don't know enough about this to argue it, while I am extremely sceptical about cloud computing.

Either way I would rather have superior hardware then have to really on having a stable internet connect 24/7 to get the best experience.

[THC CELL]

I say again ms has lost trust.Ms are at a point of begging to buy Xbox one now cause they no they a're going to lose next gen

[jhoward585]

I don't doubt MS claims about the power of the cloud , but why haven't we seen a demo?

again, all talk but no action.

[bjmartynhak]

Yep, show me a live demo connecting and disconnecting from the cloud and I will bite my tongue

[PSVita]

Notice he says the cloud "can" and not the cloud "will".

OT: I like how Yoshida answers his twitter questions with yes and no. You can't really dance around that.

[chrissx]

Can't these m$ guys just shut up?

[LogicStomper]

They could, but how do you sell a product without even telling people what it is?

[True_Samurai]

They're probably testing out projects with the cloud behind closed doors...

[THC CELL]

I think a better idea would of been separating all mp or online games from the disk and streaming full online battles wit. Cloud gaming, can u imagine halo with 1000s of players, stealth updates and New stuff added without downloads.

[OrangePowerz]

The cloud again. It can be used for certain things, but not for things that are immediate. As example it could do AI for NPCs that run around somewhere in an open world game that the player doesn't interact with at that moment, but not AI as example for enemies in an FPS because they need to react immediately and not with extra delay. The same goes for physics, you can't do a racing game and have the crash physics done by cloud because the delay would be too big.

So the cloud you help out with mundane calculations for things that don't have to react fast and take that away from the console itself. On the other hand those things don't take up to much ressources in the first place so it wouldn't free up a lot ressources.

[SilentGuard]

If MS is going to rely on the cloud for improved graphics, than the XBOne is going to be by default an always online/online required console. So much for them removing their mandatory online check-ins...you'll just have to be required to be online to play games that require "the power of the cloud"

[LetoAtreides82]

The Cloud isn't going to improve graphics at all unless the Cloud includes GPUs. CPUs are highly inefficient at graphics rendering, that's why GPUs (graphics processing unit) were created to handle the graphics.

Even uber CPUs are horrible at graphics rendering, for example a top of the line cpu today would probably get around 5fps on the cpu demos from 3DMark06 (yes, a tech demo from 2006).

[SignifiedSix91]

If i can play metro 2033 on my laptop with only an HD 4000 gpu on low and medium with a max res of 1366x768, im sure it can run that 2006 tech demo at a much faster frame rate than youre saying.

[BadlyPackedKeebab]

Doing graphics in the cloud is not as crazy as people seem to think.

We developed an inhouse tech demo earlier this year where we used ray tracing to light the world completely server side and then pushed that info back down to the client (in this case it was dev PCs on our own internal network with a simulated 5 Mbs connection).

The idea you see is with per-pixel lighting / rendering there is very little post work to do with a change of perception. As such we can render the world as a 3d pixel matrix, push that down to the client and just have the local machine compute and relight the pixels that change as a result of the player such as casting a shadow.

The tech is still early but for online only games that are not too action heavy such as RPGs we could do this now. More bandwidth would be needed to pull it off with something like BF4 where there is a lot going off in the scene and hence lots of things would need relighting locally. Even if we did that relighting server side for a game like that bandwidth would be the issue.

[Phoenix76]

I saw a demo from nividia a few months ago which showed lighting effects powered by cloud based tech which was impressive in itself. However, the demo was incredibly slow running, less then 15fps and the cloud based server was based in the room next door on a LAN config.
Hardly something for XB1 fans to get excited about because you'll get even less than what was shown due to users own BB speeds and the amount of users attempting to use same features at same time.
Cloud based enchantments would be realised until the Gen after this one.

[jessupj]

I wonder if the usual culprits will come in to defend this. I'm sure we'll see xboxfun in here soon making the usual excuses.

Anyone with even a basic understanding of how an online connection works will know this is absolutely not feasible right now.

It doesn't matter how fast the connecting is there will always be latency, and a lot of it depending on where you live.

When you press a button on your controller, it needs to respond almost instantaneously for the game to be playable. If a 0.5 - 1 second delay is added to the equation, the game becomes unplayable. That is fact. There is absolutely and unequivocally no way around this with current technology.

This is simply more PR bull by MS and it's insulting they think we're this stupid to believe them. Hopefully other people are more savvy to it as well and can look at the facts for themselves.

It might work if the future, but right now it is just lies.

[Fergusonxplainsall]

Xbox is like Neo in The Matrix.

It can fly!
It has cool glasses!
Cool hair!
Trinity!
It wears shoes!
Ugly guy believes in it! (Bill Gates!)
It can fly!

Seriously, what else you need?

More BS..

[jessupj]

And another importanth thing that gets over looked so much.

A lot of MS defenders believe that console multiplats will run that same evn though the PS4 has a rumored 50% more power. (I believe multiplats will run a lot better on the PS4, but that's a discussion for another day)

So if these people think so strongly that 3rd party devs won't push the PS4, which will be easy to take advantage because of it's easy architecture, do you think these same people will take advantage of the cloud and implement complicated code for both online and offline players?

I think not.

So even if teh cloudz does work, I strongly believe 3rd party devs are not going to bother with it because it will be too costly to make it viable.

[Hercules189]

Did you see MGS V on both machines....they both look identical, and kojima of all people would want to push the ps4 to the limits, so that right there tells you both machines are just about the same.

[mhunterjr]

The cloud will do little to directly affect graphics, however the indirect benefits of offloading certain tasks are well documented. It's fact that many frame rate issues are due to CPU issues, not GPU.

[greengentleman_5]

Hey hey hey Phil shhhhhh come over here... I got you man. Enough with this already... That's ok... You should know that not everyone has internet connection right? right? Give us console that works right out of the box. No BS. Ok?

[Hercules189]

There is only a very very small minority of gamers that dont have internet connection.

[greengentleman_5]

Are you serious? Very small? Have you checked some 3rd world countries?

Philippines has 1MBps of ave internet speed. Not everyone has internet connection and with what Phil is talking about I think it will require a higher bandwidth.

[JamieL]

@ greengentleman_5
How many of those Filipinos are running out to get the latest gaming console? I mean I see what you're saying, but in the places like that it's not like a major disappointment to them. I think they'd be more worried about clean water and food homie. Please don't act like you care about the poor little no internet kids in the world any other time then to bash MS. Weak ass argument.

[Fergusonxplainsall]

Proof is in the pudding and all MS show is a tall alien, talking about cloud power while Major Nelson is still missing on his thunderbird.

Not quite next jenny to me.

Well.. The alien is but everything else is meh to me..(imo)

[Brix90]

True or not thats basically saying that your graphical boost is dependent on internet connection. So I can only assume that this would be more for first party games since there more dependent on the cloud. After reading this article cant help but feel like the cloud is this gens "Cell" with this graphical power but was only utilized by first party developer.

[Rai]

the same tone they've been saying since they announced the cloud..

[frozen-assets]

The "Power of the Cloud" augmenting graphics arguement died when MS did a 180 on the always online. It would be far too complicated to provide a graphical boost for consoles that are online. Far too much effort for too little reward. Where the cloud may help is multi-player games, they could offload some of that stuff as it's kinda hard to play an online game offline. Then again, this isn't revolutionary stuff. Sony could easily do the same.

And remember, Cloud is just a marketing term. In the past you as a company would go to IBM or HP or Dell and buy 100 servers for your company. Now they don't want to sell you servers, they want to sell you raw computational power. Cloud computing is akin to leasing a car rather than owning it.

[BadlyPackedKeebab]

Yes and no. Its more akin to having a season pass to just use any car you like from any location. i.e. you are not limited to the power or scale of the servers you purchased you can just increase or decrease power / capacity as and when (in fact totally automatically).

A point that is in line with yours though is that as far as the gamer is concerned the cloud is BS. You do not care how something online scales etc all you care about is if it works or not. And in that sense using the word Cloud is spin. What it does do however is open up the opportunity to devs so use as much power as their wallets can pay for without having to buy anything upfront.

[obelix01]

Sony fanboys act as if it's the ps4 vs Atari 2600 & not the X1. Please ..
It's extremely stupid to underestimate Microsoft.

[abusador]

Underestimate? Or,more like basing ppls crticism off of constant lies, BS, smoke, mirrors ala kinect, lack of exclusive ips, even being on stage with a control in your pocket clicking away trying to make it seem as of kinect and ui were seamless. You'd be a fool to believe their claims.

[sAVAge_bEaST]

It's called a track record, and M$'s is filled with lies, 180's, and non-nonsensical Techno.babel.- such as the cloud will make the system 9x more powerful.

[abusador]

When will you ppl ever learn? Same pr talk was done with kinect, followed,by Milo videos and everyone was disappointed. You guys follow any authority figure paid by Microsoft even after constant shafting and disappointment. When will you realize Microsoft are the spin masters and illusionists? Too much theory talk, not enough substance.

[JamieL]

Yep, same with "toy Story grapgics", and 1080p at 120fps.

[SatanSki]

"Even the PS4's lead architect Mark Cerny explained"
lol, the most trusworthy person to believe speaking about ms.

Offcourse it could improve graphics by offloading some non realtime calculations to the cloud but if it will is a different thing.

[tudors]

I knew it!

[tudors]

Not everyone has a connection but for those that have BONUS!

[curtis92]

Note this isn't knocking the games on XB1, just this cloud BS. This is simply an argument MS came up with to combat the fact that PS4 kills it in hardware. It's just PR fluff for the investors & fanboys who buy into anything they say without blinking an eye. There are FAR too many variables and road blocks in place to actually implement any noticeable graphical improvements via the cloud. Best case scenario, they actually somehow do implement it and it's still not enough to get games on par with PS4 version running natively on it's own hardware.

[Stuntz]

I just love how you guys are so blinded that anything that Microsoft says you automatically think is wrong. It makes me laugh how some of you know so much about specs, hardware, software but you are sitting on forums posting. Face the damn facts we as consumers do not even know 1% of what this hardware means or what the software they have in store for the X1 can do. The cloud definitely can be a huge game changer its just a matter of dealing with all you trolls until the console is actually released.

[jessupj]

You say we don't know even 1% of what the hardware means and that immediately after say it's a game changer.

Hmm, I think there's a word for that, hmmm, what was it again? are yes, hypocrite.

And we've heard from many an expert how bogus MS claims are. So no, it's not going to be a game changer at all. You're going to be very disappointed.

[Hercules189]

And there are many experts that say there is some truth in what MS claims say. Our best bets are to wait a cpl yrs for both consoles to max out and then compare.

[Stuntz]

Did i say that it is a game changer? Read my post again, i specifically said it COULD be a game changer and to wait for the consoles to launch to actually see. Nowhere in my post i say anything being better than the other. So no i am not concluding to any hypocritical behavior at all. Thanks for trying though

[TheDudeLasse]

So the graphical improvements only apply to those who have the device online? Game developers will undoubtedly jump at the chance to make alternative iterations of their code that support cloud processing. This could have worked if Msoft did not pull a 180 on always online functionality.

[sAVAge_bEaST]

Not this non-sense again,. nothing left for M$, they have come full circle.

Always Online Ver.-Backdoor, incoming.

[GinkgoID]

rotfl

[quenomamen]

Wooohooo ! Guess this means the'll be able to squeeze 31 FPS out of some of these games ! Happy, happy joy joy !

[D-riders]

Misleading title he doesnt say that you can increase graphics through the cloud says that you can use to clouds to off load information so you can use more power for things like graphics and frame rates. xbots are so blind
in other words the graphics in the machine will get maxed out fact and present a lower quality than our competitors but we have a trick that could help us catch up

[Marceles]

Slightly on-topic as far as PR goes, but I was at N4G when Phil Harrison had to promote stuff like Super Rub-A-Dub....good times.

[AceBlazer13]

How did we come back to this again?

[srd4484]

If Sony had this Cloud feature, it would be the Holy Grail.

[abusador]

Sony does have this cloud feature, where have you been+? They just don't need to boast lies :)

[kingdip90]

You can't play xbox one games as advertised without the internet and without paying through a paywall. CONFIRMED

[Joe913]

@redwin I understand Sony articles are the same way with Xbox fanboys lol. But like I said in my comment before they need developers to speak for them if the lead architect of the Xbox one did all the PR stuff like Mark Cerny did for Sony and was able to answer all questions clearly the MS probably wouldn't have had to do the 180 on the always online because they could have talked about the benefits of always online from a tech stand point and why it is good for games instead you have a dumb ass exec that only thing he can think of when asked about always online is deal with it or stick with xbox360 a developer would not have been that dumb.

[GraveLord]

Bullshit.

[Jamaicangmr]

He really didnt.

[Stevino123]

DA POWAH OF DE CLOWDDDD XBOTS UNITE!

[ziggurcat]

except, it can't, phil...

[Goku781]

Prove it by showing MS. Patching it from day one is not confidince inspiring.

[Ulf]

Cloud computing actually can improve graphics -- merely by freeing the CPU to do other tasks than, for example, multiplayer server computations, AI computations (the output can come from a datastream, and latency/lag isn't really an issue, since AI pathing decisions don't need to happen within a frame, typically), etc.

With more CPU muscle, the CPU can take some fairly big tasks away from the GPU, like mesh skinning, physics, etc. -- and the GPU then has more free time to do more graphics work.

Ironically this is one of the big reasons the PS3's Cell was such a great chip -- it was powerful enough that it could offload work, even anti-aliasing, from the GPU, giving the PS3 the edge in the graphics department when you took the time to harness the SPUs (i.e. exclusives).

People love to spout how a big GPU can do everything for the CPU... when in fact GPUs are crappy at a lot of jobs, and the few jobs they can do well.. well why burn GPU muscle when you have CPU or Cloud muscle to use on that task? Why not, instead, use all of the GPU for its best purpose?

[JohnS1313]

No it can't. The cloud isn't fast at all so whatever it helps on will end up choked by slow connections. That kind of processing it will handle just isn't anything that would slow a console down to begin with. They'd still have to deal with it communicating back and forth. It just can't improve graphics.

[JuniorCE]

What is sad about the CLOUD is that Micro$oft have said that the X1 was going to be 10 times more powerful making all the fanboys kids crazy... Fail

[Regis]

I don't remember even saying that then again I joined almost a month ago oh wait! Mr. X said that.

[SpideySpeakz]

Just another pathetic attempt at getting the Xbone back in the controversial light again, to get people to start talking. Man, they're desperate.

[DoubleM70]

Yes that's what he is talking about . Certain process (AI) can be off loaded to the cloud. Which will free more resources for GPU and CPU. I think everybody beef is how does that help a single player or offline game. Only time will tell.

[swishersweets20031]

snake oil salesmen=microsoft

[Kidmyst]

This Cloud computing is more of a way MSFT has the XBONE need to connect to the Internet to scan your hardware for piracy. I can see down the road more games requiring cloud access by devs.

[ALLWRONG]

For those still in denial about cloud computing http://en.wikipedia.org/wik...

[JohnS1313]

If it's on Wikipadia it must be true. Not!!!

[LogicStomper]

Ignorant John is ignorant. You clearly haven't reached half-way through high-school.

Firstly, it's Wikipedia. Get it right.

Secondly, you're just another sheep if you think any Wikipedia references should instantly be dismissed. You see those references down the bottom of that page? You'll find out how silly you look once you learn what those references mean in school.

[Regis]

@LogicStomper

But i can edit a page, for example I replace all the words Allah with God its not hard and so therefore schools do not count it as a viable source.

[SaturdayNightBeaver]

how about games? can it make gameplay better?

[cyhm3112]

the gpu is still 50% or so weaker than PS4. And Sony has cloud facilities too, maybe even better.

[DoubleM70]

Uhhmmm No. Azure is the third largest Cloud in the world next to Amazon and Google. In 2014 Micorsoft will be the worlds largest Server farm.

[Yo Mama]

This is hilarious. Microsoft knows they are the inferior machine in terms of hardware and there's nothing they can do to change that public perception so they start campaigning that the "magic in the teh cloudz" makes up the difference. They know that some people won't know any better and every little bit of ignorance is positive for them.

[GABRIEL1030]

The power of the smoke !

[esemce]

The power of the smoke......and mirrors, this could work but probably won't.
It just sounds like PR to me. The best gamers could hope for from MS would be dedicated servers but even that sounds to good to be true as we know servers are expensive to run and these large corps love profit and greed.

[Unlimax]

Cloud = Online

So i have to be Always-On with this trick after all
in order to play games in the name of "improving graphics"
nice spin on that M$

I'm surprised that no one notice that !

[Izzy408]

Some of the biggest games coming out next year are online only games: the division, the crew, titanfall, etc. So even though not every game in the future will use the cloud because of off-line purposes, you can sure bet there will also be a lot of online only games that will use it.

Cloud processing probably won't be used by developers in the early years, but it can certainly be used 4-5 years from now, maybe even in less time.

[jmc8888]

For maybe a 1-2-5 percent benefit.

Instead of using that time and money to make the game better in other ways because Microsoft went cheap on the guts of the Xbox One.

Oh and it will still have problems....brand new ones you've never gotten pissed off before at....yet.

So really they just tied the reliability of their console's gaming experience to cloud latency and other hiccups.

[Shinox]

OMG you are right

[Azfargh]

I wonder how a mandatory hardware AND cloud processing game would work IF the internet connection fails once and a while.

For me, this won´t work well yet... besides, there will be other internet users at the same place: unstable connectivity speed.

[The_Sneauxman]

"teh powa uv da cloudz will conker PS4'z hardware!"- Microsoft.

I'm just waiting to hear M$ say that. I swear that's the next step.

[Izzy408]

Just because Sony doesn't think the cloud could work for better game processing, doesn't mean MS hasn't figured out a way to make it work. Technology is being enhanced and developed everyday.

Also, keep in mind, MS has one of the 3 biggest cloud services in the world next to google and amazon. And just because developers might not use it today, doesn't mean they won't begin using it 4-5 years from now, especially for online-only games.

[JohnS1313]

Don't lie Phil. The cloud can't improve graphics. Broadband speeds are way too slow for the cloud to help graphics. Nothing but marketing hype.

[boneso82]

So if u lose or don't have Internet connection will your games look worse or run worse??? That's what he is saying, connected consoles will have better graphics, physics and ai! Why would developers risk basing their games physics or graphics on something not every console owner has access to? Answer... They won't!

[Tigan]

Cut the BS phill. We all know this isn't possible because sony is claiming its not. If this was coming from the sony camp there would be no doubt about it. Sony knows more about the xbox architect and cloud capabilities than MS themselves.

[PsychoSupaman]

Lol,, classic!

[robotgargoyle]

Even if cloud computing does exist, the infrastructure isn't there for a large contingency of customers.

I'd hate to be a retailer and have to explain this stuff to consumers. "You need an online connection to update your system on day one, your games will be gimped if you do not have internet as it is heavily utilized to give you the experience necessary to play your games as intended."

If there are requirements//restrictions, people will veer to the competition.

[pop-voxuli]

To bad that M$ doesn't realize that us tech-heads know that the cloud simply DOES NOT WORK THAT WAY!!!

[CEOSteveBallmer]

So what happens if i get disconnected?? will the graphics on my game gets worse? What if my internet is just 5mbps, will the latency not kick in?? what about those who always play offline? will they have different experience than those who will play online?? MS and Phil Harrison. guys just stop.

[PsychoSupaman]

Why do these guys troll so much? If you're not getting an Xbox why even comment? I find it amazing how these "gamers" think they're smarter then some of the best programming minds in the world. If they were, they would be doing something creative like designing a system that'll crush both platforms and make themselves millions in the process wouldn't you think?

[jmc8888]

I think it's amazing you haven't noticed that position and title doesn't denote being right. In fact the higher position you are the more likelihood you have been kept from the truth and insulated from it. Or are there as a result of being ignorant of the truth...See Obama...See Bush...see any of the candidates.

Take it from me. I saw the pitfalls of repealing Glass-Steagall in 1995. It wasn't repealed until 1999. Setting in motion the 2008 collapse. So how come me, as a high schooler in 1995 saw the depression we are currently in, and the following didn't....

Bill Clinton didn't.
Ben Bernanke didn't.
Alan Greenspan didn't.
Larry Summers didn't.
Robert Rubin didn't.
Sandy Weill didn't.
Local and national journalists didn't.
...just about anyone that made your money 'work for you' or anybody that sold you a house...so on and so forth....didn't.

Those guys were all out there making millions and billions. How come they had all that money and didn't know squat?

Guess I'm dumber then them. Afterall they were just a couple of fed presidents and the president of the United States. Not to mention Sandy Weill who made 100 million off the merger that created Citigroup...who by the way NOW after the fact wants Glass-Steagall reinstated. Talk about a Damascus road conversion.

Guess I should be a mutli-billioniare because I saw the depression coming. Because I knew what derivatives were and their flaw.

Your sophistry of why us lowly internet people can't possibly know better is hilarious.

Especially after all the 180's which proved the lowly internet people were in fact smarter than Microsoft's people.

I mean if you're going to type that sort of drivel you might want to at least wait until some time has passed since Microsoft was shown up by every rationale minded internet person...and they started it months before Microsoft's reveal.

The simple truth is that the people that get rich, usually don't do it out of their own hard work. They do it because they figured out a profitable scam. It's the wall street way.

For you to equate making $$$ to being right is completely hilarious. $$$ is not the arbiter of who is right.

Amazing you can't see the obvious. It's like you think everyone is currently engaged in what they are best at. Like the average Joe has access to the same things that Microsoft has. Or Goldman Sachs. Or JP Morgan. Or Bank of America. Or Wells Fargo. Yeah the average Joe can't possibly have a real comment because they aren't working for that company or being a competitor. Your circular logic is broken.

Oh and here's a heads up. You know the economy. The depression is getting worse and 2008 was a girl scout picnic compared to what's coming...and no....the republicans AND democrats have it 100 percent wrong. Guess I don't know what I'm talking about. Even though I have been talking about since 1995. Oh and Dodd-Frank...just made it possible for your bank deposits to be stolen and bailed-in to pay the holders of worthless derivatives.

But hey, congress passed it, so how could those making the laws be wrong? Right?

Power, title, and money mean nothing. If anything the more you have of either means you have a higher odds of being a moron. So you kind of got it backwards.

[PsychoSupaman]

Obviously you have too much time on your hands bro.. Its a video game system. A VIDEO GAME SYSTEM.. I said nothing about power or title. My comment states that they have some of the smartest programmers in the world and yes, most (not all) of these ppl know nothing. Apparently you've been holding on to this comment for quite some time looking for something to attach it to. Really dude, you may need a bit of professional help. Your friends and family will support you I'm sure. Your comment proves nothing and this attempt to prove yourself informed was massively off topic and an epic fail.

[The_Sneauxman]

@Psychosupaman His reason for explaining all of that wasn't a fail, learn to comprehend.
He said all that to show you that just because the head of a company or business or politics "sells" you information, it's mainly PR BS just to appear like they have it all figured out and sooth their investors.

This is the real world, you're just a blind sheep if you can't see what is being relayed to you

[CEOSteveBallmer]

I really can't wait how embarrassed they will be saying that. Tech people and devs already said it won't!! best thing it can do is "free" some processing work on the xbones CPU so that it could effciently help the GPU produce better results. its not "offloading polygons and textures" and sending it to your console crap

[tigertron]

Those mythical clouds! So by Microsoft's logic we won't ever need to buy another Xbox because the clouds will just make the graphics better? so why can't we use these magical clouds for the 360?

[01animeking]

so will some games be cloud relient? even after they get rid of DRM they still getting you online

[Mister_G]

Careful if you've got a download limit though.

[Welcome2Die]

THA POWAH OF DA CLOUD!!

Yeah Im not convinced....

[jmc8888]

Offload AI? That won't help multiplayer matches... you know where everyone playing is human.

It also creates new problems. Imagine playing a single player game and it goes apecrap because the AI computations are having problems syncing up with your console. Also forget about playing these games when not online or when you've reach your data caps. What about upon release? Will we have to wait until the servers cool down in order to play a single player game?

Would these 'cloud' games necessitate being online in order to even use? Or will they also include an option where it doesn't use the cloud and then lowers some in game settings? Can they quantify what exactly that change is? Can they elaborate on what happens 3-5-10 years from now?

Microsoft's Xbox division has been making bad decision after bad decision.

There's nothing wrong with attempting to make something better. Nothing wrong with that.

But someone tell me why they couldn't of put in a better GPU, like say the PS4 did, and would rather buy all those servers to gain what, a couple percentage points more power directed to other aspects of the game?

Remember people, you need to have the dev actually want to take the time to code for it, and they have to do it right.

Many games won't use this. Some games that do use it, won't do it right. All that do use it will be creating new problems that will frustrate gamers at an unknown interval.

So Microsoft is expecting people to jump through the ESRAM hoop and the cloud hoop to compensate for the cheaper tech they put in so they could flog Kinect2?

PS4's power is there at your finger tips.

Xbox One's power is not right there at your finger tips and it is up to you to figure out the ESRAM and cloud offloading.....and it still will only recoup a small fraction of Sony's power lead. Actually the memory bandwidth isn't calculated in that gap either. So its really 40-50% + whatever is lost due to bad ESRAM coding.

...and only IF the developer is willing and competent enough to take advantage of them. If not, the 40-50 percent power lead will be much, much more. If they aren't very good we could see games struggle because they only have 100 gb/s bandwidth instead of ~170.

Think of it this way. 1.8 TFlops...right there at your finger tips.

Or 1.3 TFlops...only there if you can use ESRAM at it's fullest. Maybe going to 1.35 TFlops if you can use the cloud.

So a 1.3 TFlop console that has 2/3rds of it's bandwidth potentially gimped will perform more like something 1/2 as powerful as it otherwise could, maybe even less.

[Shakengandulf]

Great post, these are my thoughts exactly.

[jmc8888]

How much will the average game lose because developers were unwilling or too incompetent to fully utilize the ESRAM? Because that 1.3 TFlop is only there if they jump through all the hoops fully and without error.

That's the crux. By introducing such a setup they are guaranteed to have some very poor ports. Only possible because they decided to set it up that way. Whereas the PS4 doesn't have this limitation. It's memory is there without needing special tricks.

That's another way to look at it. We all know it takes years to fully explore the efficiencies of consoles. The problem with Xbox One vs PS4, is that for Xbox One, memory bandwidth is one of those things people have to figure out, and even five years from now, it'll be worse than what PS4's is for launch games. So of all the things needing to be figured out, you can add memory bandwidth to Xbox One's list.

So in a few years, maybe 10 percent of Xbox Games will be able to match the bandwidth available to developers of games on PS4 have had since launch games.

The cloud has very limited purposes, introduces new problems, and has to be expensive. Wouldn't it of been better to put better tech actually in the consoles? Where that tech can be used in every game.

Microsoft thought Kinect+Cloud+ESRAM could make up for poorer tech. Instead it just ensured poorer ports, new problems, and a more expensive system.

Their solutions create new problems, except their solutions aren't solutions since they don't solve the original problems. So the original problems remain, plus new ones.

[Erdrick]

i think of game streaming graphics quality as like watching a youtube video on "auto" or something - the resolution/ graphics fluctuate with bandwidth. so if you've got a great internet connection the streamed graphics can be as excellent as watching a high res cgi film, poor internet connection or get some lag and then your game looks all blurry and stuff... etc

[N4GJD]

This is nothing more then BS marketing. To start, bandwidth and latency both prevent this from happening. That's a well known fact. Also, it would be the consumer paying the extra cost. And there is the problem of those playing on the console without an internet connection.

[Sy_Wolf]

Yeah, it doesn't actually work like that. Sounds good if you don't know anything about technology though.

[NightStalker33]

Computing, or streaming?
I mean, if they're talking more players so that the server can handle it without crashing,then yes, I suppose it's possible. But graphics themselves? I doubt it.
Of course, this is fairly new tech, so i could be completely wrong, but knowing the average connection speed in the world, I don't think games will utilize cloud to make visual improvements.

[grimmweisse]

Show us, don't tell us! Seeing is believng...apparently.

[kingduqc]

Conclusion:

"out box is lame we need to offload some stuff cause it's chocking on the task at hand."

Ima stick to pc.

[LiQuiZoN]

As a professional software engineer with almost 10years under my belt I can tell you the entire thing is being spun as a marketing line, however, I can think of ways where this could be accomplished but it is not something only Microsoft can do. Also, there is a catch as this kind of processing wouldn't make sense for many types of games.

I can tell you open world games would benefit from what I'm thinking about. Still is it worth it? My assumption would be "marginally". The cost of entry is far higher than your average gpu upgrade which usually doubles the speed of its predecessor. If I was Microsoft, I'd yield a marginally cloud graphic increase with an xbox live "ultimate" package and push the cost onto the consumer where as the consumer would see more value in simply waiting for the next spec'd hardware.

Remember Microsoft as a whole has a history of offering less and charging more. This is true in all their business practices. Consumers be wary. Support companies that yield REAL tangible value!

[TomahawkX]

Cloud could be great for AI because some algorithms can take a long ass time especially with large data structures. These processes could be accomplished on the cloud's superior hardware and sent back to the player way faster than it would take the console's cpu to calculate.

As games become more complex with larger worlds and thousands of dynamic objects to keep track of, the cloud will become a necessity.

[robleroy]

After knowing their console was weaker than the other one..
question:
What would MS do?

a) say : yeah we got the weaker console which is still more expensive.
b) say what they just said

[badkolo]

what would we do without the n4g developers, they get so technical yet im sure they dont have a clue as to what is actually going on, gotta love it

[badkolo]

but the cloud isnt real

but here its being used, wrong or right??
http://www.youtube.com/watc...

[memots]

LOL !

[robleroy]

For anyone who at least has an IQ about a little over 80...:

question 1:

Lets say everyone has a 1000 terrabits internet connection with 0.0000000000000000000 ms latency
What would a company need to do extra cloud power calculations for the first 4 million sold consoles sold in 2013??? and later on for the 70 million?

a) a 300.000 server cloud farm,upgraded to 6 million over 7 years.

b) none

c) a not dedicated 300.000 server farm with a driver update each year to make the farm faster.

d) At first a very very broad internet feed for that cloud farm (which is supposedly centralized somewhere).
about an internet feed of (70. million * 10 Mb/s )
about 700 Terabit/s should cover it all for the next 7 years.

e) Stupid fanboys

[andrewsqual]

And yet even if it was true these games would require it to be online always, something they have said you will not need.
Go back to 2005, they released a console that didn't require a hard drive and it was only in September 2013 that it became a completely normal thing for a massive mainstream game to say "Fuck this old policy that was a bad idea to begin with" and make a true epic open world game at the gripe of very few idiots. So again, developers are never going to do this because they are restricting so many people with the console then (except in this case always online is a terrible idea, simply make the console more powerful to begin with if you wanted it to be powerful)

[SynestheticRoar]

That double agent is lying.

[Adolph Fitler]

If he didn't work for MS, I would say that maybe he has a shred of cred......The guy is a BS PR man....meaning he is so fulla sh1t that it's beyond measure. And he is not even convincing in his bullsh1t, whereas Kaz & co. are far more convincing....I didn't like this guy when at Sony, as he just seemed like a suit & tie wearing pompass ass.....nothing has changed & he still doesn't know WTF he is talkingt about.

All I know is, I can't wait to purchase my PS4 on Nov.29 (Aus) & sit it next to my Wii-U, PS3 & 360.....and I doubt I will EVER support a MS console again, (unless I have no choice)......as they have changed console gaming from just a greedy business model, into an incredibly greedy, customer robbing element.......I mean, if MS ruled the roost, we would be bent over a barrel so hard, that even the most staunch console gamer would switch to pc.... They would r@pe our a$$es.....prison style....

So thanks MS, for making online console charges mandatory, thanks for trying to rob us of ownership (Thank God Sony f%cked your plans there), thanks for being totally dishonest, backpeddling, untrustworthy scum element in what was a great business model & arrangement for the gamer, before you selfish, overly greedy A-holes crashed the party. Wake up consumers, wake up & punish the sh!t out of ANY company that tries to take our consumer rights away, you punished Sony for absolutlely ridiculous reasons with PS3, so swallow your unfounded, misguided patriotism for a supposed American company, that pays foreigners in China, Turkey & anywhere else they can rob blind, to manufacturer there products....just ring the Xbox hotline & listen to what your speaking, as I ring Sony & talk to one of my fellow countrymen, whereas I ring MS & I am speaking to an Indian trying to be an American. So, pull your heads outta your a$$es & support a company that ain't most likely to r@pe you over a barrel at the 1st opportunity they get.
PS4 for the win.
Sony should retaliate to Phil Harrisons BS, with a the simple words, "We don't have our heads in TEH CLOUDS like some, two words NAUGHTY DOG will improve PS4's graphics".

[MicDude]

There is still too much unknown for me to believe this as it is; if you are going to try and sell this to people MS, you need to have tech demos and address the potential issues with bandwidth and latency. Nobody is just going to take your word for it; people, for the most, are not stupid. If you make a claim then back it up with some proof.

[BOLO]

"Power of the cloud" struck by internet outage = FAIL.

[Zalamander]

I highly doubt that with the current bandwith of majority of internet connections nowaday; the cloud will be able to improve graphics noticeably. Not everyone has fiber optic (or cable) connections. Microsoft is BSing peeps with this type of claim