What would You Do for Your LIttle Girl? Father FIgures in Bioshock Infinite and The Last of Us

Aaron Ploof from Spydistrict compares and contrasts the father/daughter relationships in Bioshock Infinite and The Last of Us.

[SeanScythe]

Keep her alive no matter what it takes.

What I got from Joel was that he cared for Ellie just like he would his own little girl. In the end she knew it was a lie that their was no cure and others like her. To me it seemed that she wanted Joel to tell her it was ok to believe the lie. She knew it was selfish and wanted assurance that what happened was ok. I would have done the same, humanity is lost and what little remains is living by a thread. I say in that world you protect your family and self over others that wouldn't risk their lives for you.

[Salooh]

This subject is not that easy you know. It depends on what you mean and what situation you are in. But whatever it is , In my situation in a normal life i won't go and do bad things to protect someone . bad + good =/= good , It only lead to chaos . Being an example to unjust is better then do a bad thing to someone. That's how my religion want me to do and it's reasonable.

Example : I don't steal even if my daughter is hungry. I rather ask people to give me since that makes me a poor man. And to stop poor we have to fight who only think about himself . Earth is enough for all of us , it's certain people who create poor by stealing. Remove them and teach humans to care about each other with the fear of GOD or by going to hell . That's what religion for , teach us how to live with each other. If my daughter steal i would cut her hand , that's a good threat to not do it. Stealing is not that innocent and can't be prevented with talk.

So that's just one situation.

[SeanScythe]

Yes cutting your daughters hand is a sign of good parenting..../s

Again I said in their world where it's survival of the fittest. Normal world where you have laws and people that live by them is different. Asking a poor man for food for your family isn't going to work if he's doing the same thing to you.

The world they live in is full of murders that will eat, kill, rape, or sell you. Infected that want to kill you, and nature has taken the world back.

Now when I said I would protect my daughter I would harm anyone that didn't attack us first or steal from those that where in the same situation as us.

[Salooh]

SeanScythe

I understand what you saying but the rule still applied in that situation which seems that we agree on ^^.

My religion believe that there will be a time where some kind of people/monsters ( GOD knows what they are but we know their names and what they will do ) . They will come and destroy whatever they see in this earth and even drink all the water they see. But even then , this rule is still applied on anyone who steal to survive , doing that will make them the same monsters that destroy earth . Either unite or be destroyed . That's the rule when that happen .

As you see , Right or wrong never change , it's in humans nature. What happen to you is in the hand of nature or luck or whatever and in my case is by GOD. But you choose the path you want and you are responsible of what you are doing.

[AKS]

@SeanScythe

"What I got from Joel was that he cared for Ellie just like he would his own little girl."

I think ND clearly emphasized that when...

[minor SPOILERS]
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.
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...he began calling Ellie "baby girl," which is a term we had heard him say before, but he wasn't previously referring to Ellie.

[/minor SPOILERS]

[AaronBaron]

Joel didn't ethically ponder his situation, so honestly neither can we. But by observing his decision we do know he made his call through possesiveness. He never cared about mankind's future and his lie to Ellie was only to avoid hurt for him. Letting Ellie give up her life for mankind, even if it meant her death, would have been more loving.

[OmniSlashPT]

Joel lived 20 years in 'that' world. He knows nothing works anymore. Even if they discovered a cure (which would be very difficult since they've been trying for decades now), they would never be able to get it to everyone. There are no cities, the quarantines zones are disapearing, its everyone for themselves. Besides, Joel still has that gruge from when her daughter was killed. It was for humanity because they were eliminating any human with signs of infection is sight, but it had no moral at all. Neither did Joel last decision. That just shows how that world is twisted and humanity is lost, and with it our morals and the difference between good and bad have vanished. It's survival at all cost, and if that means killing in order to survive, then so be it.

[AaronBaron]

Ellie's never been one to believe lies, and she wants to contribute to saving mankind. Who is Joel to rob that from her?

[SeanScythe]

She is still a child and easily influenced by people she may trust. The fact that she will give up her life so quickly is like a terrorist telling their kids to strap a bomb to themselves.

She should be able to make the choice herself but not when she hasn't had a chance to live. 14 years old and that was the first time she was outside the gates, she had a lot to live for and see.

She wanted to live when she went through the fight when the bandits kidnapped her. She didn't want to die, she was afraid of being left alone.

[AaronBaron]

Morality can't be lost if it's written into the fabric of the universe. There is no ceasing of good/bad, because man made institutions do not determine these qualities. All of the characters in the game may have been motivated by selfish desires. Joel definitely is.

But I think he knew that it's what "Ellie would have wanted" and I think it's the game's opinion by the end that his choice is not to be praised. Understood and sympathized with? Yes. But I think that the game's opinion shows the frality and self-deceptive nature of mankind. Moral rationality in Naughty Dog's universe is nihilistic and chaotic.

The Fireflies are a symbol for hope, but we'll never be able to even see if that hope may have been able to come into fruition. Is it false hope? It's hard to say.

[SeanScythe]

He's selfish because he didn't want her to waste her life on a worthless cause. There is no way to mass produce a vaccine for everyone, it would only create false hope which is what the fireflys really are. Then once the government found out they would have taken it from them and use it for control on the people. Joel knew this is how the world would be and knew it was pointless to let a child bare the weight of the world on herself. Ellie didn't owe the world anything because they wouldn't have done it for her.

[AaronBaron]

As much as you may want to believe that was Joel's reasoning, it wasn't. All he wanted was his "baby girl" back in his arms.

[SeanScythe]

Maybe that's what you got from it, sure he saw his daughter in her. But he also didn't want to loose someone he cared about, like his own daughter. That's what's nice about the ending ND left that up to the player to decide what Joel's reasons were. I felt differently about it then you did.

[ONESHOTV2]

i can see none of u played bioshock infinite or u did play it but never understand what was going on any way here come the dislikes
lol

[AaronBaron]

You seriously thought this was his thought process? Joel's actions were driven purely by the need for his daughter figure. He didn't have the time to rationalize the ethical ramifications of his decisions in his head. He wouldn't have done so even if he had the time. He's not that kind of guy.

All we need to know I'd that, in the end, even Joel felt guilty for Deceiving Ellie. Even he knew, deep down, that what he was doing was wrong.