Forbes writes:
While the Xbox One and PS4 took a lion’s share of the limelight at E3, there was more to the event than the console launches and their Day One games lineups. While catching up with NVIDIA about SHIELD at E3 I also heard about some of their plans for PC gaming. Arch-rivals AMD also have plenty to say on that subject, and an AMD spokesperson took a few moments to fill me in on their perspective too.
Nvidia DLSS 3.7 is the latest update to the long-running AI upscaling technology, and it further shows native performance doesn't matter.
I think hardware development is at a point where they need to figure out how to draw less power, These beefy high end cards eat wattage, and I'm curious if using DLSS & AI in general will lower the power draw. It would seem like the days of just adding more VRAM & horsepower is over. Law of diminishing returns. Pretty soon DLSS/FSR will be incorporated into everything, and eventually the tech will be good enough to hardly notice a difference if at all. AI is the future and it would be foolish to turn around and not incorporate it at all. Reliance on AI is only going to pick up more & more.
DLSS certainly lowers power consumption. Also, the numbers such as the 4090 at 450W does not tell you everything, most of the time the GPU stays between 200-350W in gameplay, which is not too different from the highest end GPU of 10 years ago. Plus, today you can undervolt + OC GPUs by a good margin to keep stock performance while utilizing 80% of the power limit.
You can make the 4090 extremely power efficient and keep 90% of its performance at 320W.
However, in today's world the chip manufacturing is limited by physics and we will have power increases in the next 5-10 years at the very least to keep the technology moving forward at a pace that satisfies both businesses and consumers.
Maybe in 10 years we have new tech coming to the markets which we are yet to invent or perhaps we can solve existing technologies problems with manufacturing or cost of production.
On the other hand, if we were to solve the energy problem on earth by utilizing fusion and solar etc. it would not matter how much these chips require. That being said, in the next 30-40 years that is a pipedream.
I don't think fusion is the way forward. It will mosy likely be too late when it's finally ready, meaning it will probably never be ready. Something else might arrive before though and then it becomes viable.
We need to stop the smear campaign on nuclear energy.
We could power everything forever if we wanted too.
PS4 Pro had dedicated hardware in it for supporting checkerboard rendering that was used significantly in PS4 first party titles, so you don't need to look to PC or even modern PC gaming. The first RTX cards released nearly 6 years ago, so how many nails does this coffin need?
I'm not sure what the point you're trying to make is, but PS4 Pro was before DLSS and FSR, and it still provides one of the highest performance uplifts while maintaining good image quality.
DLSS is it's own thing but checkerboarding om PS5 still is a rival to the likes of FSR2.
Um. That is my point. That there have been so many nails in this "native performance" coffin and they've been getting hammered in for years, even on PS4 Pro before DLSS was even a thing.
Don't know what's OP's point is either but ... checkerboard rendering was good enough for its time but in terms of image quality its wayy behind what's DLSS 3 or FSR 3 is currently offering.
The main point of the article and what OP missed here is that DLSS 3.7 is soo good that its nearly undisguisable from native rendering and basically throws the "its still blurry and inferior to native rendering" debacle, (that's been going around in PC community since 2019), right out of the window.
RaidenBlack
DLSS is as i said a different thing from FSR and checkerboard.
But you're talking about FSR 3 which probably is better than checkerboard, but FSR 3 has only started to get games this year, so checkerboard which was the first hardware upscaling solution was and is still one of the best upscaling solutions.
Give credit where credit is due, PlayStation was first and they got it right from the get go, and PSSR will almost certainly be better than it will be given credit for, heck digital foundry is already spreading misinformation about the Pro.
Tacoboto
Yes... Its amazing how many talekd about KZ2 deferred rendering, pointing out the explosions were lower res than the frame itself..
And of course, Then the idea of checkerboard rendering, not being native....
For sure, maybe this tech makes it minimal while pixel counting, but alas, seems performance and close enough , and not native now matters.....
I want to see it run native without DLSS.. why not?
Almost deaf person:
- lightweight portable 5$, speakers of 0,5cm diameter are the final nail in coffin of Hi-Fi audio!
Some people in 2010:
- smartphones are the final nain in the console gaming's coffin!
This is just the same.
AI upscalling is complete dogshit in terms of motion quality. The fact that someone is not aware of it (look at the deaf guy example) doesn't mean the flaws are not there. They are. And all it takes to see them, is to use a display that handles motion well, so either gets true 500fps at 500Hz LCD TN or OLED (or faster tech) or uses low persistence mode (check blurbusters.com if you don't know what it means) also known as Black Frame Insertion or backlight strobing.
Also, image ruined by any type of TAA is just as "native image" as chineese 0,5$ screwdriver is "high quality, heavy duty, for professional use". It's nowhere near it. But if you're an ignorant "journalist", you will publish crap like this article, just to flow with the current.
There's no coffin to native res quality and there never will be. Eventually, we'll have enough performance in rasterization to drive 500fps, which will be a game changer for motion quality while also adding other benefit - lower latency.
And at 500fps, the amount of time required for upscalling makes it completely useless.
This crap is only usable for cinematic stuff, like cutscenes and such. Not for gaming. Beware of ignorants on the internet. The TAA is not "native" and the shitty look of the modern games when you disable any TAA, is not "native" either as it's ruined by the developer's design choice - you can cheat by rendering every 4th pixel when you plan to put a smeary TAA pass on it later on. When you disable it, you will see a ruined image, horrible pixellation and other visual "glitches" but it is NOT what native would've looked like if you'd like to honestly compare the two.
Stay informed.
Main point of the article is how far DLSS has come with v3.7 since 2018. If this is what we're getting already, then imagine what we'll get within next ~3 years. Yes parity will obviously be there compared to the then native rendering tech but it'll slowly narrow down to the point it'll be indistinguishable.
Something similar is like the genAI Sora ... AI generative videos were turd back when they were introduced (the infamous Will Smith eating video) ... but now look at Sora, generating videos that just looks like real life.
How much VRAM is standard today? My laptop has a 1080p QLED display but only an Intel Iris Xe with 128MB of VRAM. I currently do all my gaming on it but certain titles do suffer because of it. I plan on getting a Steam Deck OLED soon to play the newer and more demanding titles.
Maybe better to get a budget gaming laptop and link a dualsense to it
= Portable console with far better graphics than a steam deck! + bigger screen and able to use it for work / etc
Aleksha writes: "Nvidia has established itself as a dominant force in the world of AI, but I can't shake the worry of what this means for the RTX 50 series."
Echo sentiment here - I think the way GPUs are going, gaming could be secondary to deep learning. Wonder if the 40 series was the last true generation of GPUs?
No.. Jensen believes GPUs should stay expensive. Those wanting a top end GPU will have to splash out for it, or play at just 1080p and 60fps or something if you can only afford a low end option.
On the other hand if you don't care about RT or AI performance then there's always AMD that are doing ok at the mid range.
***or play at just 1080p and 60fps or something***
My over 2-year-old laptop GPU still runs fine. I think this is more a reason why GPUs are going to other things in priority, because the market reach for new users is shrinking as more PC gamers focus less on replacing older and still working parts that run RT/AI fine enough as it is. Not to say there aren't people who still do it, but I think the market is shrinking for having the latest and greatest like it has been the past two decades. Problem is we aren't growing things at a rate as we were, we're reaching the the flattening of that exponential curve in regards to advancement. We need another major technological advancement to restart that curve.
You also need to consider that NVIDIA are heavily invested in cloud gaming. So they are likely going to make moves to push you into yet another life subscription service.
NVIDIA will never change their price point until AMD or intel makes a GPU that is comparable and cheaper than them .
it happend before in the days of gtx280 which they changed the price from 650$ to 450$ in a matter of 2 weeks because of rx4870 which is being sold at 380$.
Last September, we unleashed AMD FidelityFX™ Super Resolution 3 (FSR 3)1 on the gaming world, delivering massive FPS improvements in supported games.
So to put 2 and 2 together... FSR 3.1 is releasing later this year and the launch game to support it is Rachet and Clank: Rift Apart. In Sony's DevNet documentation it shows Rachet and Clank: Rift Apart as the example for PSSR. PS5 Pro also launches later this year... but there is something else coming too: AMD RDNA 4 Cards (The very same technology thats in the Pro). So, PSSR is either FSR 3.1 or its a direct collaboration with AMD for that builds on FSR 3.1. Somehow they are related. I think PSSR is FSR 3.1 with the bonus of AI... now lets see if RDNA 4 cards also include an AI block.
More details:
FSR 3.1 fixes Frame Generation
If you have a 30 series RTX card you can now use DLSS3 with FSR Frame Generation (No 40 Series required!)
Its Available on all Cards (we assume it will come to console)
Fixes Temporal stability
I've been using a mod that allows dlss frame gen on my 3080 it works on all rtx series. It'll be good not to rely on mods for the future.
I think that the leaks about the 5 Pro would debunk the notion that the two (FSR 3.1 and PSSR) are the same technology. PSSR is a Sony technology.
I wonder how much they fixed the ghosting in dark areas as Nvidia are leaving them in the dust with image quality. Still good that they are improving in big leaps, I'll have to see when the RTX5000 series is released who I go with... at the moment the RTX5000's are sounding like monsters.
Did you see the dell leaks were they are trying to cool cards using over 1k watts of power.
We are going to need 220 lines for next gen pcs lol
As much as I hate supporting Nvidia, AMD just doesn't even try to compete. Their whole business model is to beat Nvidia purely on price. But I'd rather pay for better performance and better features. AMD also doesn't even try to innovate. They just follow Nvidia's lead and make their own version of whatever Nvidia is doing. But they're always 1 or 2 generations behind when it comes to those software/driver innovations, so Nvidia is always miles ahead in quality and performance.
I do a lot of work on photoshop so an Intel Nvidia set up has been the got to because of performance edge, more expensive but far more stable too. Intel also have the edge over AMD processors with better load distribution on the cores, less spikes and jitters. When you're working large format you don't want lag or spikes when you're editing or drawing.
I do think AMD has improved massively though and whist I don't think they threaten Nvidia on the tech side they do make very well priced cards and processors for the power. I'm probably going with a 5080 or 5090 but AMD will get a little side look from me, which is a first in a long time... but like you said they are a generation or two behind at the moment.
While I can't argue for amd gpu, they aren't bad but they aren't great either. The cpu for amd have great. I would argue the 7800x3d as one of the best cpu for gaming right now. Idk about editing so I take ur word for that but gaming amd cpu is a great option these days.
@Goosejuice
I have a 7800X3D. It certainly is great for gaming. Though for video editing, rendering, etc, I think Intel have the advantage from what I remember. I just mean from a GPU standpoint I can't support them.
Nvidia.....you just keep coming for more......
I understand they missed out on a great next-gen opportunity and may of been able to get rid of their competitors if they had taken it but they all wanted money.Then they hack at MS, Sony and Nvidia and keep talking ish
Nvidia really need to stop this because IMO, the X1 and PS4 isn't a downgrade, infact it is an upgrade Nvidia but your SHEILD is a current gen or downdgrade thing.
Nvidia, you missed out on a million dollar buisness and you can't keep hacking at these companies, YOU were the one who made the bad choice, not THEM
4k gaming... Yeah that is further off from mainstream than 1080p was when PS3/360 launched. Gonna be a few years until prices will be reasonable. It would be nuts to try and make console games supporting that resolution right now. 1080p with good AA and refined post processing effects is a fine place to be for the next 5 years or so.
Yeah we all know PC hardware is already ahead and will only get better. But my GPUs each cost as much as a PS4. Let alone the rest of the system. PS4 (and to a lesser extent XB1) give a damned good value to power on hardware. I'm mostly just glad new consoles will step up the baseline for developers so they'll move past designing around PS3/360's limitations.
We probably wouldn't see 4k gaming until the 10th gen, 3k-equivalent would be the next logical step after 1080p.
The PS4 is only $399....
You here that fanboys. Xbox-one and PS4 are a downgrade. Neither is as powerful as some of you guys think. I luagh at all of you who think just because the ps4 has GDDR5 that makes it some sort of powerhouse. It doesn't. My PC GPU alone cost more than PS4 and xbox-one together.The consoles are a significant upgrade from last gen but they have nothing on what can be done on a good gaming PC.