Moderation confusion

If you take a look at the guidelines of this site and then take a look at news stories and comments here, I bet you'll be confused as to how the moderation is on this site. According to the guidelines, blog posts will not be posted as news, flamebait is not allowed, trolling is not allowed, etc...

But what is seen everyday? Every single type of infraction gets passed until someone with the power to change it is bored and decides to enforce the rules.

Now, I was recently "restricted" from posting comments for indirectly implying someone I was replying to was dumb after they directly stated that I was. You can take a look at the story and my comments here...

http://n4g.com/news/804825/...

I was replying to dantesparda which is the post right above mine.

Now, I was restricted from commenting because of that post and lost a bubble and there's nothing I can do to change that, but the point here is that the moderation is completely random and seems to rarely be about the guidelines and more about what a mod or admin is doing at the time.

How many of you can say that you've seen, time after time, a person has received many debubble votes after trolling and yet nothing happened. The troll continues to troll without consequence. How many times have the worst infractions been committed unchallenged? And then there's the flamebait news articles and the incessant repetition as was seen during the Anon/Lulzsec/PSN hack moments.

It's as though the mods spend all their time in the Forums and forget the main aspect of this site until it dawns on them to check it out, and then random debubbling and comment hiding/restrictions ensue.

Now I'm sure I'm going to get the standard apologist "if you don't like it leave" comments here, but I really don't care. I'm here because I want to be, and when you say nothing about inaccuracies and inequities and a generally poor standard of moderation then nothing is going to change. It's kind of like a cop who has a traffic ticket quota to fill. If he doesn't fill it before the end of the month, you can bet your behind that your chances of getting a ticket for going 1 mile over the speed limit are drastically increased.

[kane_1371]

yeah, I agree with you.
It seems like if there is only one mod on the main page.
Things advance slowly when it comes to modding

[evrfighter]

Ya I can attest to the atrocious job the mods are doing. I usually get suspended when I make a counter argument against a ps3 fanboy and he's proven wrong.

I know offhand Cgoodnoo or whatever his name is has been on the lookout for me as we butted heads many times since before he became a mod. Often times I'm marked as trolling when a ps3 fanboy is corrected.

I only need one bubble to say what I want to say so my bubble count is irrelevant. will probably be banned or suspended for this post also but it needs to be said.

[Christopher]

So, let's see *looks at vote and report history*

In the last month, no moderator has "moderated" one of your posts. It's all been done by the community. The last time a moderator moderated one of your posts was 56d ago. Most of the time, the community does moderate itself fairly quickly and appropriately.

Based on your restrictions, I have never placed one upon you.

You will not be banned for believing and commenting on a conspiracy theory.

Yes, we can see all of this info, so when someone starts claiming unjust actions... we just look at their profile and review what actually happened.

If you would like more information on your restrictions or moderation against you, you can always PM me.

[DragonKnight]

I have to call issue with you there cgoodno. Mere observation has shown a massive disparity between the community moderating itself and the mods doing it. The debubble to increase bubble ratio alone shows that the community has little to do with that aspect of "self-moderation."

And example is that there is only one comment in this whole blog marked with a "Well Said" and it's from a mod from another site who is, understandably, taking the side of site moderators. Now, I'm not criticizing him for that, nor attacking him for it, but in a blog that criticizes this sites moderation; and with comments that seem to support that underlying theme, would you honestly say that the community is responsible for that "Well Said" and bubble up vote?

Now, I can't attest to those who merely come, read, and then agree/disagree or bubble up/down without commenting, but it does raise an eyebrow I would think.

And this blog is just one example of the hundreds of others.

[Christopher]

***I have to call issue with you there cgoodno. Mere observation has shown a massive disparity between the community moderating itself and the mods doing it.***

You see, that's the problem, you are utilizing mere observation whereas we see what really happens. There is no scientific evidence to what you see, just your perception.

As I commented on below, the problem is that the mass majority of bubble votes are all negative, not positive.

[DragonKnight]

Observation is a form of science is it not? Granted, you have methods to see things we don't, but it doesn't exactly negate the fact that something is up with bubble votes and stuff and how it seemingly has little to do with the actual community. I can say for a fact that I've been around long enough to notice that, back during the Gamer and Open zone days, it was easier for someone to gain bubbles than now, now the situation seems to have flipped and it's easier to lose them and have your posts marked as trolling.

There seem to be waves of it too. You'll find an article with A LOT of "spam" or "immature" or "trolling" posts hiding comments. And others where it's massive flamebait and violations and absolutely NO posts are hidden are marked for the trolling or insult posts that they are.

[Christopher]

***Observation is a form of science is it not?***

Observation is a key element of scientific evaluation in a controlled test environment. Outside of a controlled test environment, which this is not, it is not scientific but perception based.

***it was easier for someone to gain bubbles than now***

And one of the largest complaints back then? Why do people who shouldn't be able to comment as often able to comment so much?

***You'll find an article with A LOT of "spam" or "immature" or "trolling" posts hiding comments. And others where it's massive flamebait and violations and absolutely NO posts are hidden are marked for the trolling or insult posts that they are.***

Have you reported them? Have others reported them? As moderators, we are unable to read every single comment on this site and we do rely on the community to help us find many of the posts here. Typically, a submission goes unmoderated because it falls under the radar, not because we don't want to or chose to ignore it.

[Emilio_Estevez]

I really didn't see why either one of those comments were labeled as personal attack. And your comment was spot on btw.

Un-ban Rage, Tman and Tensteps!

[LtSkittles]

Rage is unbanned.

[Christopher]

***I really didn't see why either one of those comments were labeled as personal attack.***

Calling another person dumb or an idiot is a personal attack. When seen, it will be moderated as such.

A personal attack is an abusive remark made against the individual rather than the argument. We don't mind people getting into somewhat heated debates, but keep your comments targeted at the argument and not the individual.

[Rage_S90]

Rage is not un-banned.

If you want moderation i suggest you visit the forums it's at an all time high there.

I also think some site's should be black listed if you've been on pending you'll see the amount of crap msxboxworld come up with is unreal.

-Heil das fuhrer

[Christopher]

Rage is not banned.

The forums get away with murder compared to the front pages. Especially compared to most gaming forums out there.

[DragonKnight]

Well, according to the mod who responded to my message (which took an entire day before I received) about the restriction, it doesn't matter that I never directly insulted dantesparda. Quote "I think we both know who that was meant for" is the response that I got along with an explanation on immaturity etc..

It's funny because far worse is allowed to pass, and all of us could list very direct, very derogatory insults made even to ourselves that sees absolutely no consequence. Bubble loss and gain is completely random and has nothing to do with the community, as is any form of "discipline."

[Nate-Dog]

I've said it before myself and I'll say it again since this is more of a relevant area, I think those "trolls" that have been sitting on one bubble for a long time and still continue to get bubbled down should be temporarily suspended from posting anything (or being able to add or take away bubbles or being able to agree or disagree with posts, etc.) because otherwise while they only have one bubble and can't reply to anyone replying to them, they still manage to troll their way around the site and irritate everyone. It's pointless really that people can troll and flame and whatnot constantly and be bubbled down for it, but once it comes down to the final bubble nothing else can be done it seems.

In regards to things like Twitter, Facebook, Youtube posts, flamebait articles and things like personal blogs being approved I think the main FAQ/ News Posting Guidelines regarding article posts needs to be updated so people know it (most of the regulars here obviously already know it and infringe not because they genuinely don't know, but because actually they know and they know they will get away with it if they have an interesting enough (i.e. sensationalist) title or if they're the first to link even though it is against the rules. (And I say this because sometimes I report articles myself and go to say "Twitter posts/Personal Blogs not valid sources" and am replied to with "where does it say that?" which is annoying enough since it isn't there.)

Perhaps could do with some more mods around the news section though admittedly.

[Emilio_Estevez]

People do get permabanned from posting. Not really sure what it takes or how often though.

[Columbo]

Most of those things are already in the guidelines:
http://n4g.com/site/newsgui...

"When posting videos avoid linking directly to videos on YouTube or a similar service. You should only post videos if the content of the video is professionally made and of interest to the community. User made videos can only be posted if other big websites or blogs have posted them; making them news worthy. When posting videos, they should be embedded on the N4G submission when embed codes are provided. Videos from YouTube, IGN, GameTrailers, and Gamespot almost always provide embed codes to users."

"The opinion piece should be well written and be of interest to the community. Personal blogs do not qualify as a legit source for opinion pieces unless the author is an industry professional."

"Internet forums and message boards do not normally qualify as a reliable source. However, linking to screenshots, scans, images, and videos posted on forums is ok. You can also link to forum posts if the post is made by an industry professional. Twitter posts are also an acceptable source of news, but only if they are made by an industry professional." (Facebook would also fall under this - example: http://n4g.com/news/716396/... )

[Nate-Dog]

Ah my mistake again then (I'm starting to look really stupid now lol). -_-
I knew the bit about Youtube was there but I thought in general all Twitter posts weren't allowed? Guess I just need to look better. Apologies.

[Nate-Dog]

Oh really, my mistake then and thanks for letting me know, I just assumed nothing happened since I tend to see the same trolls around here constantly haunting certain types of articles and rarely disappearing.

Edit: I meant to reply this to DrStabwounds, not as a separate post, my browser is really acting up today.

[MidnytRain]

Best not to criticize the MODS, Dragon. Don't you know what happended to T-man? I've already said too much! They're watching... Listening...

http://paulboylan.files.wor...

[DragonKnight]

Lol. And honestly, if the mods or admin did anything to my account for criticizing them, then my point would be proven and they'd publicly show that the rules don't really matter, and that all that really matters is the mood and opinion of the mods and admin.

[RockmanII7]

The mods on this site are a joke, they permaban the heart of the forums yet they keep all the fanboy filth on the front page. You know the real reason why they don't ban the fanboys on here? Money, all the fanboys that get in rage wars with each other makes traffic and N4G benefits from it. I mean if a HHG article is full of lies and speculation but it gets up to 1000 degrees N4G still makes money from it so in their minds all they're getting by deleting it is less money.

[theonlylolking]

I think they need to change the bubble system to what this guy has http://n4g.com/user/blogpos...

[MidnytRain]

Complaints about the bubble system are old, and things haven't gotten better. Maybe we should accept that the people who run this website don't care.

When we say, "This needs to change,"

they say, "No system is perfect," and cast us off.

They always say that.

[BakedGoods]

Unfortunately there are two main problems with the administration:

1) They view most of N4G as trouble making fanboys (as evident by many of their quotes)

and

2) They don't have the administrative/moderator talent to actually solve these problems

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, many sites have handled moderation better. I don't know of any other gaming community who's system is built around punishing different opinions and often grief'ing other users.

Although N4G has been around for almost 10 years, the staff have simply failed to solve these problems. Meanwhile other gaming communities catapult ahead in terms of industry recognition and commentary. It speaks more to the lack of creativity the staff have towards community management--they simply don't know how to solve this, and partially believe the community 'deserves' it (with is obviously a cop-out).

There's always hope things will change, I do believe some of the staff members want to help.

[BakedGoods]

After re-reading my comment I realize I might not have been clear:

The 'moderation', that is staff-level decision making is adequate from my point of view. My concern is with the bubble system, or community 'self' moderation--that is a flawed system and needs to change.

Case in point: Peaceful_Jelly's comment below mine. Labelled as 'Spam' by the community? I don't remember the exact comment (I believe it was an anecdote), but it wasn't spam.

[consolez_FTW]

Man...just now on a COD article I confronted a troll who was pissing off PC and PS3 gamers. So I confront him ( he already has 10 disagrees for trolling) so when I bring it up in my reply, I get marked for trolling! My comment is hidden now and his isn't. Oh well...N4G! you come for the news...but stay for the drama!

[Dart89]

Lol so true i saw you're comment.

@Below well i did call him a 12 year old so idk >_<.

[consolez_FTW]

Hey dude, I noticed your comment is hidden for Immature? The MODS on this site have a weird pattern. Most times they aren't here, Then from out of nowhere they show up, hide comments, then go back into a deep slumber till next time they awake.

[RyuCloudStrife]

Just go to every Call of Duty article and you'll see the lack of moderators doing their job.

[starcb26]

I remember I posted a comment, and in a few I was bubbled down for immature. There was a comment below mine that said basically the same thing, and nothing happened to him.

http://n4g.com/news/743678/...

[allyc4t]

N4G is a COMMUNITY driven site. If mods interacted with every little thing what good would that do?

Ignore the trolls, report and rate the stories/websites that you consider flamebait/terribly written/repetitive and move on.

There is no sense whining(don't take 'whining' the wrong way, I completely understand your frustration), because we've all been here long enough to realize that nothing is going to happen in terms of moderation. That's just how this site is built.

[Speed-Racer]

As a mod over at TechSpy, there are problems both on the system and user end. There are some obvious flaws with the system and the rules, but those fall well into the minority versus the number of problems on the user level. It is frustrating sometimes when very experienced members consistently choose to ignore posting guidelines. Banning really isn't the best solution though because you can't throw out ban hammers left, right and center to keep order, rather I use it in only extreme circumstances.

Clearly some users labor points to the grave, which is also annoying because they sometimes choose to make up their own rules around the present rules, which I find quite odd.

It was an interesting job at first but sometimes users do behave like trolls, and then discredit the names of the mods.

Anyway, it's definitely a community driven site but there has to be rules in place to keep some order or else the front page may end up filled with spam of anime chics and 5th grade pieces.

[maniacmayhem]

I have a problem with the bubble system also.

Okay you lose a bubble for god knows what reason. But how do you gain them back? It's imposible to get anything you lost back on this site. But so easy to lose.

[Christopher]

This has been discussed in other blogs and on the forums, but you get them back by having your posts bubble voted up instead of down.

Just like being bubble voted down, you won't gain a bubble just from a single post. It takes a few.

The reason why people lose so many bubbles is because people focus on voting people down than they ever do on voting people up. I would love to see a community effort to get people to actually vote people up for good comments just as they seem so addicted to bubble voting people down for poor comments.

[maniacmayhem]

If thats the case then maybe the vote thing should disappear. In reality there will be more haters and non-positive comments on forums. It's the nature of the internet.

Maybe everyone should have 5 bubbles, thats it. No going down no going up. If you have to reply more than 5 then it needs to be a private convo.

I never understood the disagree vote anyways it makes no sense that people can click that dont give a reason why and it affects your bubble count. That means if you have someone who just hates you and has time on their hands they can follow you and disagree with everything you say.

And how did you get so many bubbles?

[Christopher]

If we capped it at 5, it would definitely limit some but would also give more of a voice to many others that the community has already voted as not deserving of such an ability. It might look good at first to give everyone 5 comments per post, but for many that is giving them 5x as a chance to troll and insult others, the reason they have lost their bubbles in the first place.

That's just my opinion and not the opinion of the site administrators/owners.
===

I have 10 because I'm a moderator.

But, before becoming a moderator, I had 9 bubbles. How did I get those? Through constructive and quality posts rather than the typical comments many make around here.

[Tuxedo_Mask]

@cgoodno

I think you've hit the nail on the head as to why most people never gain any bubbles. People are quick to bubble users down, but not to bubble people up. It's human nature I suppose to focus more on the bad than the good, and I know I'm just as guilty as anyone else in that aspect.

If users want more bubbles they should start bubbling up other users who you think make good comments. By focusing more on the positive comments here and rewarding them with bubbles we'll see more high quality discussions rather than the usual flame bait and trolling, which should be ignored anyway rather than responded to thus making it worse.

[consolez_FTW]

Yeah man, I fairly new to N4G and I have no Idea how to get bubbles. I guessed people have to agree with you alot? IDK. Anyway I see some N4G regulars that had like 5 bubs and nowadays they have 2 or 3...weird.

[Odion]

MAN why does no one ever complain about me these things? I get plenty of angry PM's but NOOO no one ever says my name when their talking about mods.

Really hurts my feelings.

Plus whoever said other sites have catapulted ahead of us or something, we're like way bigger then most game sites, and I never met anyone at E3 last year who didn't know who we were!

[Christopher]

Who are you, again?

[Speed-Racer]

and who are you?

[Abriael]

In years here, while i always tried to provide quality content to the site, I had a couple bad runins with moderation. Last of which, a news piece about Kazunori Yamauchi winning his class at the nurburgring 24h, that a moderator just arbitrarily decided it wasn't gaming related and completely canceled when it was 340 degrees and getting on the top roll.

Because you know, a prominent racing game developer showing that he's good at what his games are based on is SO much less gaming related that geohot going to the bathroom or some lulzsec goon posting on twitter right?

It's always bad when an overzaelous moderator just happens to pass by and crap on an article that's fruit of a lot of work (in that case 24 hours of coverage of the race and a lot of research), and when contacted showers you with condescending prattle and doesn't budge of an inch.

My biggest gripe, though, is the content filter on opinion pieces (which, I hear, moderators aren't even able to control). It's simply just too random.

Too many times you see disgraceful trollposts and flamebait right on top of the front page just because it happens to come from sites that have somehow managed to become "trusted" (or however it works, and never lose their status no matter what crap they post), gathering 1000s of degrees out of further flames and controversy, while so many actually nicely written, relevant and interesting pieces struggle to get to 100 degrees because they're slapped behind the content filter.

In my opinion the content filter should be either removed or closely watched so that crap that slips past it could get manually filtered, and good articles could get greenlighted. As it is now, it's simply an invitation for certain sites to post flamebait, and discourages others to post their pierces at all. No matter how good they are.