Kinect downgraded? On the contrary, says Rare

Microsoft’s innovative controllerless peripheral, Kinect, has not been downgraded during its evolution from concept to final product, says an exec at UK studio Rare.

In fact, Nick Burton believes Kinect has closely followed a survival-of-the-fittest principal; dropping less desired features and improving its more important ones.

“Kinect’s tech has certainly not downgraded over time,” the Rare technology producer told Develop. “I would say the tech has been upgraded, in fact.”

[Convas]

LOL, I'll trust what Rare says when they get back to making good games.

[OSU_Gamer]

Unfortunately you won't trust anything Rare says if its positive and about Kinect at the same time, no matter how good their games are.

[Shadow Flare]

Well if kinect has been upgraded then why don't the games show it?

Basic, basic kinetc games, an e3 full of pre-recorded footage and a string of videos demonstrating the technical bugs of kinetc don't scream "upgrade" to me

[rroded]

kinect a ok...

again this is news why? Rare's not put out a decent game since they fell into ms's pocket imo. n anyone expecting them to say anything other than glory be to their masters is just wishing for the Rare of old.

we all know dumbing down the cams and taking out the chip was a downgrade this is just pr bs.

[Convas]

You're right. I'm still a doubter. I NEED MORE EVIDENCE BEFORE I put my trust in Kinect.

And to anybody unclear as to my previous comment, I mean, when Rare gets back to making games for the 360, Viva Pinata 3, a real Perfect Dark 2, etc etc. "Gets back to" being the operative phrase, implying that they've made good games before. :)

[Elven6]

If you missed out on games like Conker: Live and Reloaded, Kameo, Viva Pinata, Banjo-Kazooie: Nuts& Bolts, Jetpac Refulled, etc than I feel kind of bad for you since those were great games, fun too.

Jetpac Refulled is still the best game on XBLA for it's price IMO. $5 and you get a completely redone game visually in HD, redone audio in 5.1 from one of the best composers the industry has to offer, the original game included in its entirety, added multiplayer modes that are actually good, and a whole ton of extras for Rare fans.

[Strikepackage Bravo]

VERY good point, bubbles for you bro. Most of these people around here know little to nothing about the 360, let alone what good games are available on it. The only thing most N4G kids know is they are supposed to hate MS and 360 for some strange reason.

[BlackTar187]

the pot calling the kettle black. whats sad to me is you seriously probably cant even see how contradicting you are.

All those games are good and rare is awesome but lol at bravo if you really believe your some pillar of fairness then i LOL in your face.

[Jdoki]

Agree Jetpac and Conker are good. But what do they have in common? Remakes from the better days of Rare.

Kameo was a great launch title, but had flaws (and was conceived two generations before it saw light of day).

Nuts and Bolts felt like a new IP with potential that had Banjo/Kazooie slapped on top to sell a few more copies. (In a similar way to Nintendo forcing Rare to stick Starfox in their original Dinosaur adventure on GameCube).

Rare have lost their touch. The days of amazing original IP like Jet Force Gemini and Blast Corps have gone. The days of producing platformers that rivalled Nintendo's best are gone.

If this was the golden era Rare I would believe them when they said Kinect was something special, because the quality of their games would make the hardware something worth owning.

All I keep hearing is that 'Kinect is awesome' from the MS camp - but I can't play 'Kinect' I can only play games using Kinect. And so far the games look less than appealing (except for a couple of the recent announcements at TGS)

[beardpapa]

wasn't a big fan of kameo but viva pinata and vp tip are excellent games.

@Jdoki: I'd hold out on my opinion of those recent announcements until I see real gameplay. I mean, look at Front Mission Evolved. I got it and it's pure crap. I can't get myself to want to complete mission 2 because it's simply not fun at all. It's like they tried the "let's give it a 3rd person shooter element because shooters sell well" mentality to it. Gonna have to trade that in for another game while it still has value. I know it was handled by a western developer but quite a bunch of J-dev games this gen are crap anyways. Just HOW many J-dev games that came out this gen can we all on this site safely say was actually enjoyable and worthy to tell friends to buy?

[FriedGoat]

Jetpac Refulled is a boring game that held my attention for no longer than 5 minutes.

[Knushwood Butt]

Kameo sucked

[maxcer]

sadly i don't think rare makes games anymore, just lame avitar junk only MS cares about

[Christopher]

Not to be rude, but they have got to be kidding us. They've downgraded the hardware in order to get it to a more reasonable $150 price tag and have made up for it with software emulation. Now, it's capable of performing the same actions if you program it to do so, but it's done at a much slower rate and takes more from the 360's processing power than if they had left the skeletal tracking and processing and depth sensing elements on the hardware.

I think what they mean to say is that none of the features have been removed and they've enhanced those features over time. This is true. But, the technology has been downgraded in order to meet cost limits.

[gamingdroid]

and why is it bad to downgrade technology to have a reasonable cost for adoption by consumers?

If anything, time and time again, consumers have shown that not the best technology wins, but the one providing a good function to price ratio.

In fact, I would argue that if MS had introduced pricier technology and failed it would actually hurt the industry. Why? Simply because it would appear consumer demand for this type of product isn't there, when in fact it might be.

As it is, people are already complaining Kinect Sensor itself is already expensive.

[Shadow Flare]

"and why is it bad to downgrade technology to have a reasonable cost for adoption by consumers?

If anything, time and time again, consumers have shown that not the best technology wins, but the one providing a good function to price ratio."

What you may not realise is that you're sub-consciously talking about the ps3 and 360.

Why is it bad to downgrade a product? Just so it can sell more? Sorry that's Microsoft thinking. I want the best product possible, not a mediocre one. I'll take the Sony thinking anyway and everyday. Release the best product you can at the time for consumers to have the best product and experience possible. The product will cost less as time goes on anyway. That's why I own a ps3 that has bluray and games that utilise it brilliantly like GT5, and you own an unreliable dvd player with games that have to be chopped and sliced and struggle to fit onto the disc space they're given. And that's only one issue with the 360.

Microsoft: "Oh, let's make the 360 cheaper by making an arcade model that has no hard drive"

Customer: "brilliant. A cheap 360. I bought this to play forza 3. What's this? I can't access the whole game i bought if I don't have a hard drive?"

Microsoft: "yeah, sorry about that. Didn't mean to rip you off. Well...So you're gonna need to buy an over-priced proprietary hard drive to access the whole of that game you bought for full price. Thanks"

Sorry, I like sonys approach better. The words "planning ahead" spring to mind

[Christopher]

***and why is it bad to downgrade technology to have a reasonable cost for adoption by consumers? ***

The inability to reduce lag in processing gestures is due to being emulated by software rather than maintained and processed on a chip built into the hardware.

The inability to track intricate gestures is due to having low-end camera peripherals.

When you sell games to the core audience, the things they look for are control, accuracy, and response. If these don't measure up to their current controller options, it's just not going to work. On all three of these, Kinect fails because it falls behind standard controller options.

In the end, the result is a slightly improved PS3Eye camera with software to back it up. Sony could have wasted their time developing software to navigate the XMB with your hand and voice commands, but they didn't see it being an improvement that would sell the product. Unfortunately, they don't market things like Microsoft. Even worse is that in this day and age we have people who support products so blindly that even if they don't care about it, they'll enjoy it for some ridiculous reason.

We know the PS3Eye can do body tracking because we've seen it in the Move demos where you can hold two wands and control a robot's arms/hands and the body frame will match up and move with your head/body.

I know the PS3 Eye can do gesture based navigation because that's how you navigate in PS3 Eye games.

The hardware backpedaling by Microsoft hasn't done anything new because of cost. In the end, they've got a glorified PS3 Eye with a depth sensor added onto it, something they still haven't utilized properly. This is also why the mass majority of third-party games are only tracking your current body frame and not doing anything with it. Dance games only check to see if your frame is in a similar location to the one on screen, but they don't respond or adapt to these changes because it takes too much processing. Same thing with exercise games, which by the way mostly are coming to the PS3 with PS3Eye support as well, because that's all you need.

If Microsoft had stuck with the better hardware and worked to get the prices down, it might have been something worthwhile. Instead, it's an overpriced controller with some better graphic software that in the end doesn't do enough different than what's already out there and has so many limitations when it comes to what one can do overall.

[gamingdroid]

All I have to say is, I want the best technology for a price I can afford. I don't give a damn that the latest super computer can process super mega flops if I can't get it on my desk for $500 and that it meets my needs.

@Shadow Flare
If you have issues with only getting half the game, perhaps you should read the fine print that clearly states the requirements!

@cgoodno
It might not be something that you are interested in, or care about as is, but it seems many other seems to favor it.

I would say the pricing strategy of the Xbox 360 is a smashing success. Consumers have spoken that price matters!

[Christopher]

***It might not be something that you are interested in, or care about as is, but it seems many other seems to favor it. ***

You see, I wouldn't say 'favor'. I can agree that people might be interested in it, but I doubt those people will favor it over their standard games.

But, more importantly, this topic isn't about what people like or don't like, it's about the technology and what was removed from it.

[gamingdroid]

"But, more importantly, this topic isn't about what people like or don't like, it's about the technology and what was removed from it."

That is why above you just made huge rant about how great the PS Move is and how you love Sony's direction with the PS3?

"In the end, the result is a slightly improved PS3Eye camera with software to back it up. Sony could have wasted their time developing software to navigate the XMB with your hand and voice commands, but they didn't see it being an improvement that would sell the product. Unfortunately, they don't market things like Microsoft. Even worse is that in this day and age we have people who support products so blindly that even if they don't care about it, they'll enjoy it for some ridiculous reason."

Sounds more like you have issue with people prefer another product than PS Move.

"You see, I wouldn't say 'favor'. I can agree that people might be interested in it, but I doubt those people will favor it over their standard games."

There are people that don't want to play games with their controller or never cared for it, but now enjoy the Wii. At this moment in time, this is targeting those consumers.

[Christopher]

***That is why above you just made huge rant about how great the PS Move is and how you love Sony's direction with the PS3? ***

I didn't say squat about the Move. I used the PS3 Eye as a clear example of the exact same technology that's used with Kinect. I also have experience with both to make such a comparison, though Kinect only for about 20 minutes of hands-on time.

***There are people that don't want to play games with their controller or never cared for it, but now enjoy the Wii. At this moment in time, this is targeting those consumers. ***

Based on software sales, the majority of them don't enjoy more than Wii Fit and Wii Sports on the Wii, actually. Furthermore, how are you going to sell something to those consumers who A) Already own a Wii B) Will need to spend $200 more than what they paid for their Wii and C) Will need to spend $10-20 more than what they pay for Wii games on the new system?

[gamingdroid]

"I didn't say squat about the Move. I used the PS3 Eye as a clear example of the exact same technology that's used with Kinect. I also have experience with both to make such a comparison, though Kinect only for about 20 minutes of hands-on time. "

Well, I apologize, I meant to say PS Eye. I guess I lop PS Move and PS Eye togheter since they are they are a dependent on each other.

It surprises me that you talk about technology, yet you have no issue claiming Kinect technology is "exact" same technology as PS Eye. Clearly they are different. PS Eye doesn't have a depth sensor and can't generate depth information. It can emulate it to some degree.

The only skeleton tracking I have seen with PS Eye is upper body with both your arms.

Saying PS Eye is the same as Kinect technology is the same as saying a cube is identical to a square or 2D is the same as 3D. Clearly a cube can appear as a square, but is not!

"Furthermore, how are you going to sell something to those consumers who A) Already own a Wii B) Will need to spend $200 more than what they paid for their Wii and C) Will need to spend $10-20 more than what they pay for Wii games on the new system?"

Yet, the pre-orders seems pretty brisk. Amazon.com is charting Kinect well in advance of actual release and Game (UK) is reporting that they are likely to sell out of Kinects this holiday.

[Christopher]

Again, reading comprehension.

I didn't say they were the exact same, I said that the same technology used with Kinect is also used with PS3 Eye. In fact, I said:

"In the end, they've got a glorified PS3 Eye with a depth sensor added onto it, something they still haven't utilized properly."

And I'm 100% correct. Look at Kung-Fu Live, which is doing 100% body tracking just like the Kinect. The only reason you haven't seen 100% body tracking on the PS3 Eye is because they haven't developed the software out because it's not something they want in the long run. But, the developers of Kung Fu Live went ahead and did it.

Also, those people who have Kinect on pre-order are not the primary audience for the Wii. Those are core gamers, not casuals.

Stop trying to tear apart my arguments as if I'm a fanboy or something and really read and understand what I'm saying. I don't hate Microsoft, but I do hate the end result of Kinect because it fails to deliver in so many ways and yet they continue to claim it does without showing us any proof for a year and a half.

[gamingdroid]

I'm not sure if you caught this, "Saying PS Eye is the same as Kinect technology", but I clearly said "Kinect technology". Perhaps I'm not the one with reading comprehension issue.

"In the end, they've got a glorified PS3 Eye with a depth sensor added onto it, something they still haven't utilized properly."

This alone tells me you don't seem to understand that the jewel of Kinect is the software combined with everything they include in it as package: voice recognition, depth sensing camera, and full body skeleton tracking. A 2D tracking solution is generally very easy, try it in 3D and the problem just exponentially increased.

With that said, I'm pretty damn sure Sony want Kinect emulation on the PS Eye. Heck, I have seen the upper body skeleton tracking they are playing around with.

"Also, those people who have Kinect on pre-order are not the primary audience for the Wii. Those are core gamers, not casuals."

So you are saying casuals do like Kinect? I can't tell who is ordering it, but it is being pre-ordered and there is demand. I walked into a Kinect showing at one of the MS Store and there was a line and people seemed very excited when they play the games. You look at the videos and the same result.

Now I can understand you had other expectations, but to bring in Kung Fu Live (which looks like a terrible hobbled game play) and then seemingly assume that Sony didn't want Kinect like technology in PS Eye makes you seem like a fanboy.

However, to get back to topic since I don't have any more bubbles, I would like to get one answer:

"But, more importantly, this topic isn't about what people like or don't like, it's about the technology and what was removed from it. "

What is wrong with scaling down cost of technology so that the product is affordable by the masses and to gain enough adoption to ensure successful 3rd party software support?

I would argue the opposite, to me processing the tracking on the Xbox 360 internal CPU ensures that you will get much more processing power available to reduce lag. This is the optimal solution, because you can throw more horsepower at the problem if needed or scale back on demand! Reduce cost, increase flexibility.

I would love to have a mo-cap setup in my house, but I ain't paying even close to $500 for it. It is always price to value ratio and I believe Kinect is already lopsided on the price side.

If you are willing to wait for Sony to get some Kinect like features, I'm sure you can wait to see what MS does with product that hasn't been released yet. Especially if it takes a regular developer 18-24 months to make a game they know the game mechanic and input scheme for, I don't expect real progress in revolutionary full body tracking games to happen in 12-16 months.

Furthermore, what was removed from Kinect? The possibilities are still there. If you are talking about the chip... then that has little impact on consumer experience. If you are talking about software capabilities, then I didn't expect all of that to be there in the first place on launch, but it certainly isn't impossible to implement yourself.

[erathaol]

Rare - "Kinect is the definitive motion control experience!"

:)

[PimpHandHappy]

i say Rare has been down graded

on topic
what else are they going to say
"yea kinect has had power taken from it and has been down graded to make the $150 price point we at Rare(MScorp)thinks it needs"

[maxcer]

i can see their reasoning with the hardware, i mean you don't sell full 360/ps3 development kits to consumers in the first place and that seems to be what the "natal processor" was. just like Move, i bet there is a dev kit that has a bit more memory or power to get the code running smoothly.

[crillinFLIP337]

@PimpHandHappy

Completely agree with your off topic comment.

@Maxcer

More processing power is never a bad thing. 360 has great graphical processing (hence it upscales any game to full 1080 regardless of its actual native resolution) but the actual processor is not as strong. Since the Kinect camera relies entirely on the system to process the images it's going to limit the amount of processing power devoted to the gameplay.

[Hands Up For Games]

Wait. A. Minute!!!

People told me on N4G that Kinect was/is crap and nothing more than a supped up webcam?

Who to believe, developers who are using the hardware or N4G posters? Its a hard one :)!

[eggbert]

First party dev's will NEVER say anything bad about their parent company.

And N4G posters aren't exactly accurate.

[jambabie69]

tell that too.

morganfail
action bastard
timat

and all the other droids that ruined this site.

im a proud owner of ps3 and xbox 360, not some wanna be dev like morganfail......"i seen gears behind the scenes on ps3"

laughable at best.

game on

[Hands Up For Games]

I suppose I was just being a bit cheeky, I know that Rare being 1st Party will defend Kinect to the hilt but I find it funny to see the different opinions of people who have never sat down with the Tech but already know it will FAIL.

Some people hate Kinect with a passion and others are looking forward to it, as im picking up Move this weekend (payday) im looking forward to trying out this motion control malarkey, I will also add that Ill be picking up Kinect at launch as well.

Go ahead haters. Hate me :)!!!

[Mr_Bun]

Hypocrite : a person who acts in contradiction to his or her stated beliefs or feelings.

Just thought you'd like to know what it is that people are calling you

[Biggest]

But whatever you do. . . DO NOT BELIEVE YOUR OWN EYES! All of the videos that show real life gameplay, real life game-controlling-actor-play, and real life demos in Macy's are completely false and not to be trusted. Trust what Rare says because they made avatars taller.

[n4gno]

Jambabie fanboytroll, writing names of "normal" people supposed to be ruining n4g), when they are only stating facts most of the time (easy to check), and forgetting all his liars friends in denial, omega, shadyisn, edhe, niceguy360, hallmart, and others bots, who more then ruining n4g, are ruining the gaming experience of people believing their lies, and buying inferior product and games.

[jambabie69]

lmao hes another "developer"

[k-Lan]

lmao! Raztad invented the Playstation! YOU DIDN'T KNOW??? Morganfell & Greywuss helped him out. The best part of all is they're pros when it comes to the Xbox brand!

@ AssassinHD

My suggestion is to believe anybody that is pro Sony. They know everything that goes on in the gaming business. Did you take a part in helping Raztad & crew develop the Playstation brand?

[AssassinHD]

In other words, should you believe people who do not have all the facts, or people who have an incentive to not be forthcoming with all the facts?

[Why o why]

what, removing the internal chip actually improves tech now.

Let the games do the talking because from what we've all seen there have been numerous step downs/coming soons. Natal had the chip, Kinect doesnt. Ultimately it wont matter if the software is good but c'mon fellas, be honest. How can one dev say this and all of the 'who should i believe' comments start pouring out like that somehow eradicates what we've seen. Ef the blind haters and the blind followers ok but at least be honest with yourselves....damn

[maxcer]

im just going to repost what i said above cause im "lazy"

i can see their reasoning with the hardware, i mean you don't sell full 360/ps3 development kits to consumers in the first place and that seems to be what the "natal processor" was. just like Move, i bet there is a dev kit that has a bit more memory or power to get the code running smoothly.

[Hades1337]

I think Kinect is a very interesting piece of hardware, but I will wait until it's cheaper and there are a wider range of games available for it.

[Drycell04]

I want Jet Force Gemini 2

[gamer8179]

I agree. I am interest in using Kinect as a new way to navigate the dashboard and play around with the voice commands. But I will diffently wait for it to be cheaper, or if they release some games that are interesting to me.

[KillerPwned]

I remember seeing something like MS had to downgrade kinect because if they gave it the camera and whatever else it was gonna get before it was official it would of cost a lot more for the consumer.

[BBAM]

it has...
the capture resolution was reduced so that the cost could be reduced.
Edit: they also removed the internal chip that was going to process the bone structure of people that Kinect picks up, that is instead now going to chug up the Xbox's CPU

[IRetrouk]

if something is taken out that is a downgrade as far as im concerned, not saying its gonna fail or anything but rare are hardly gonna say, yeah kinect was downgraded but we are stuck working with it, are they?
dosnt matter it will sell regardless, but to be honest i think they should have stuck with the natal plan of action it looked better and had more features, now we have kinect with less features and broken promises.

@ dissagres, explaine why you dissagre with me and we can have a disscussion of the pros and cons, thats what this site is for isnt it?.

[rroded]

"@ dissagres, explaine why you dissagre with me and we can have a disscussion of the pros and cons, thats what this site is for isnt it?."

a bub and an agree for the lolz truly epic sarcasm XD

[IRetrouk]

all im getting at though is that kinect has obviously been downgraded, stuff has been taken out so that equals a downgrade, if a four wheel car has a wheel taken away its been downgraded to a 3 wheel car and who wants one of those?

[niceguywii60]

You're a troll and you do not know what you're talking about that is why you're getting disagrees. You cherry pick rumors and myths to make a point out of spite.

[IRetrouk]

so stuff hasnt been taken from kinect? and all those early vids of natal wernt lies? so four players can play at once and you can scan things into games?, i think not, and as for me being a troll, lols, 74000 gamerscore says im not, im not cherry picking anything out of spite, everything i have said about kinect is true is it not?, i wasnt complaining about the dissagrees, i was asking for peoples opinions on why they dissagreed so that we could have a disscusion about it, wheather you can admit it or not kinect got a downgrade and that my friend is fact. and as for not knowing what im talking about, why dont you go watch the old natal trailers, then watch the new ones, even you will be able to see the broken promises.

edit. Had a look at some of your posts, call that kettle black much?

[00000000000000000001]

MS had a choice of using an on board CPU or the 360 cpu, they decided to use the 360's. Doing so uses some of the 360 power and does exactly the same things as the on board CPU would have done!

[stuna1]

But with the removal of the chip from kinects, it has added another chore to the 360s processor that it wouldn't have normally had, in turn taking up resources that could have been needed in games. I for one am interesting in the tech that is kinects, but not the way that microsoft is trying to utilize it.

[divideby0]

Didnt they remove the processor from the camera and presently using software and 360 processor ? To me thats a downgrade, software/emulation is not as good as native hardware... If you are gonna DA, please say why or just be a troll

[xg-ei8ht]

Rare, leave M$ and make diddy kong racing for PS3.

It'll be a winner.

M$ is evil.

[Jamaicangmr]

Shut up and earn your damn pay. Allow marketing or another development team who has proven them self on the Xbox360 to do Kinect marketing.

[Dusdg]

The 360 getting all the information straight from the camera is not software emulation. It's not like the 360 is running a program to run another program so that it can transcode the information like they do with xbox games. They are just processing all the information on the 360 instead of having it worked out on natal and then sent to the 360. If you think about it that should help cut out lag. All the raw data is being sent to the 360 and processed on the fly and put into the game.

[Trroy]

So... affordibility is an upgrade then?

[tacosRcool]

Microsoft just said that it won't include its own processor and has to rely on the one in the 360. Rare, you all fail.