Why Gamers Are Ruining The Industry

Have you noticed a decline in the quality of content recently released? Are you left wondering where all the good games have gone every time you step into the electronics section of your local store? Do you wonder WHY it seems like we’ve been getting the same mindless, gun-fight, breast filled game, time after time?

Hint: It’s Your Fault.

[Godmars290]

How isn't it the devs fault for wanting a standardized engine to make games? To get them out quickly?

Gamers wouldn't be pixel counters if devs lived up to half the claims they made.

[Omega Zues]

I don't mind developers taking time to create a great quality game, but the problem is when they make such large claims and when you finally get the game is far from what they promised it to be.

[jeseth]

It has just about all been done. And the best stories and franchises are well established and do what they do very well (Mario, Zelda, Metal Gear, Halo, God of War, Gran Turismo, GTA, etc. etc.).

Too many games mimick what other great franchises have already established which leaves you with a "I've seen this before" feeling with many new games. Its really hard to have a fresh new experience now a days.

I also feel that gamers complain too much. If a sequel is coming out it "has to" improve upon its predecessor with new features and modes etc. Often times this can ruin a franchise. Modern Warfare was perfect just the way it was. When Modern Warfare 2 dropped and to this day people are irked by the horrible new perk system and overdose of kill streaks that make the game get out of hand. COD : MW2 spiraled out of control but only because they way gamers demand, demand, demand new stuff. Same goes for the Resistance franchise which started just this gen. Resistance 1 was an amazing story, setting, and experience. Resistance 2 went way off course to the point you forgot you were supposed to be fighting during 1940's and 50's America.

I think it has a lot to do with it just being hard to come up with fresh new ideas for games and some of it does have to do with us, the "gamers". I think the word "gamer" has lost its meaning this gen of consoles.

[Quagmire]

erm...

There would be NO industry if it werent for the gamers, thus meaning gamers wouldnt exist if there werent an industry, meaning the industry cant say gamers are ruining the industry, because there would be no gamers, therfeor, no industry to say gamers are ruining the industry, because....

damn, i think i just Inceptioned myself

[Solid_Snakeps3]

lol that's a rather odd title ''Why gamers are ruining the industry'' Shouldn't it be ''Why hackers/pirates are ruining the industry''?

[Nate-Dog]

Oh sorry didn't realise it's my fault the gaming industry is getting worse (?) because I'm spending money that I barely have on games and products for gaming. I'll stop right now.

/s

[frjoethesecond]

Just thought the same thing when I read the title. Good luck selling games to non gamers *looks at wii*.

[goalweiser]

Apparently non-gamers buy more games than you do. Have you seen wii software sales? Epic to say the least.

[Darkfiber]

Agreed. Gamers are idiots for the most part. They want to play the same thing over and over again. Hell, look at Uncharted 2. A huge number of gamers are saying that it's the best game ever made, blah blah blah. And why? Cause it's a shooter? Cause it's 8 hours long? Cause there's long cutscenes? Cause it's a completely linear straight line game with no branching paths that doesn't let you make a single choice other than "which of these two weapons do you want to use"?

I mean, whatever, the game wasn't bad, but it was exactly the same as every other game out there. Does the fact that it had slightly more polish than some other games mean it's the best game in the world? Hardly. And don't even get me started on Halo 12 and Call of Duty 456.

It is getting worse. The only reason people are spending more money on games is because there is so much of the same shit being released over and over, and most of them you can beat in one sitting. Most gamers get bored of them after one play, and look for the next "new" and "better" thing.

I think a lot of it has to do with an emphasis on story. Lots of games are putting a great deal into their story, and a lot of people like that (me included), but the problem with that is, they usually just end up throwing some generic gameplay in the game as filler to tell the story, as something to set it apart from just watching a movie (Uncharted 2). But this means that after you finish playing the game, you don't really feel a "need" to play it again. The gameplay isn't typically good enough to drag you back into it, because it's just generic third person shooter fare you can find in any weekly release. Yes, it's partly the developers' fault because they are making them, but they are making the games that people WANT. So ultimately, the ones voting with their wallets are the ones they are going to cater to, not the ones on N4G posting bitchy comments about how bad it sucks :P

I remember the good old days of PC gaming when games were focused on gameplay and replayability, so you could play a game for a year or two at a time before you got bored of it. Now games are lucky to last you a day or two.

[blodulv]

Making "choices" in games is completely overrated.

Give me a well told story over having to choose which road to take and mediocre decision making any day.

[punisher99]

@Darkfiber: Uncharted 2 is not a shooter. ITs an action/adventure game. There is a difference. And its more than 8 hours long if you are not a complete expert at the game.

[wollie]

UC2 is the best game ever made. played it three times in a row just because it was awesome. and the MP is great.

[troll]

Well, trying to imitate the narrative structure from the movies is pretty much disregarding the strength of the media form. Railwaying the player through the story and trying to get make some lasting appeal through a separate multiplayer mode is more patching together a faulty system than using the strength of the gaming media. A separate multiplayer mode is not faulty in itself but if there's no driving force as to return to the singleplayer part then gameplay mechanics are probably lacking to begin with.

While this article was somewhat poorly worded and didn't really pinpoint (any of the significant) reasons as to why the status quo grows stronger, I think we need to acknowledge that we as gamers are part of the media and therefore also a part of the problem. You can point the finger and pass the blame to your heart's content but even if the blame would lie solely on one party, the burden is still shared by all of us.

We need some place to communicate with the publishers and developers that's is not done by the wallet or pissing and moaning on random forums. Could it just be kept civilized, I think there could be a lot of creative feedback from the community and, likewise, from the developers and publishers.

Though, this will just be wistful thinking on my part. I'm posting this on a random site that holds no common ground with developers to begin with. But I take comfort in that I like to reread my pretentious postings and feel like Mr Know-It-All. I might as well just talk directly to the wall, but my walls are thin and I don't want to bother my neighbors with my rantings.

EDIT: This is in no way about Uncharted, I haven't played it myself so I reserve my judgement. This is just a musing in general.

[wollie]

I actually prefer linear stories in games. I think they are stronger and help you connect to the characters better. But its a good thing we have linear and open games so that we can both be happy!

[dillydadally]

I'm so sick of hearing reviewers mark down games because they're linear. Linear is a design option, not a negative (in FF13's case though, it hindered the fun and just didn't work in my opinion). The games I've liked most over the years are linear in nature - linear is great because it allows a story to be told and characters to be developed.

The real problem is a linear game lives and dies by the quality of its characters and story, and everyone's either too stupid or too cheap to actually hire a good writer for their games. I mean, when was the last time you played a JRPG and thought, "Wow, what an interesting and unique and gripping story. I sure got into these characters!". That is so rare now and definitely isn't in JRPG's I've tried lately. Not sure why I keep mentioning JRPG's - they certainly aren't the only game this applies to. Uncharted 2 wouldn't have been near as good a game if it wasn't linear in nature. Starcraft 2 has a great linear story but still allows choices to be made with specific missions.

[Immortal321]

do you mean a one way path to take to progress through the level?

[troll]

I guess I was a little fuzzy. Some of my favorite games are indeed linear, I just don't think we should downplay the user interaction and exploration. A lot of mediocre games could probably have been great if they didn't try to limit themselves to other medias narrative standards. Problem is that games haven't really found a working middle course yet.

I'm all for variety, that's why I'm concerned because for the moment a significant part of all released titles are cast in the same form.

[wollie]

I get what your saying. I to have really loved some open world games. You really should check out UC2, the presentation, voice acting and animation is just so good that every game you play after it will seem like blocky ps1 era games. That might be an exaggeration but the game is really really slick. not innovative, but the certainly the most polished game I have very played.

[troll]

Oh, I will. I just need to get myself a tv again. Sadly my consoles are just collecting dust at the moment. But when it's all hooked up I will definitely check out UC... Well right after I've played through Yakuza 3 again. ^^

[Solid_Snakeps3]

troll has 5 bubbles and i have 2??
say
whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

[troll]

I'm not really sure you are replying to me since your post doesn't really touch the subject I'm talking about. But let me just reiterate in case you didn't bother reading my following posts.

- I never said linear was a faulty system to begin with. I'm merely pointing to that using a linear gameplay and then trying to extend the lifetime of the game solely by multiplayer, is not an optimal way of using the game medias strength. Having said that, there's definitely games that pull this off excellently, still more games that does it horribly.

I will however agree with you that not many studios are willing to invest in good actors and authors when they persist on telling a story to begin with.

And regarding linear games - I've enjoyed far more than I care to list.

[jdktech2010]

I got a new idea for an article....

Why articles, about how gamers are ruining the industry, are ruining the industry

[FuturePerfect]

:D

[JohnApocalypse]

Blah, blah, blah, Its all shooters now, blah, blah, blah

This is just from some douche-bag trying thinking he's better then everyone else

[Gamer Muzz]

Pure ignorance. the industry over the last 2 generations has reached out to new demographics and broadened the types of games we see. it's not all core and kids any more. the casual gamer base has increased, but that's not a bad thing. it feeds more money into the industry and that's good for everyone.

the DEVELOPERS and PUBLISHERS are to blame. they make games for casual gamers with wreckless abandon so they can increase profits. THEY hold the gamers hand and walk them through games (ala Fable 2 and Prince of Persia) so they dont get frustrated and stop buying them. they make 20 versions of the same games and flood the market with "New titles" that could just as easily be DLC (Guitar hero games for example)
And it's all so profitable that they keep doing it with no regard to the Hardcore gamers that supported them before it was cool to have a game console in their room.

Maybe they should consider that before they start developing hundreds of motion controlled shovel ware for PS360 like they did on the Wii. (The Wii is a great little console burdened by shovel ware that these same devs/publishers threw out there for a quick buck)

nd it's our fault? LOL Please.

[CimmerianDrake]

Both the devs, and the gamers that buy the same garbage, are at fault. I mean, look at it from the devs point of view for starters....

MW2 is pure trash. Look at how many people berate the game. But, it sold A LOT of copies and made Activision A LOT of money. So, if you were them, would you deviate from something proven to make you money? I don't think so. In that instance, the gamers are at fault for spending millions on a bad game.

But then the devs are at fault for MAKING a bad game hoping it will cash in on name recognition. E.g. FFXIII which was a horrible, half-assed game with so little in content and too much in flash.

The fickle tastes of the vocal western gaming media, the people who buy tripe like MW2, and the laziness of devs who are looking for a quick buck are all to blame.

I miss the days of the SNES, which is still the best damn console ever made with the best damn games ever made. Earthbound, Donkey Kong Country, and Secret of Evermore for the mother f*cking win.

[pippoppow]

Mostly the younger generation that mostly just wants to shoot stuff up. This is why there are too many FPS and shooters in general. There are also less genres than before. Where are the Space combat games like Wing Commander and FMV games like Gabriel Knight 2. Yes we have seen more blending of existing genres which is nice but the return of old genres would be nice.

It would be nice to have new old style graphic adventure games like Full throttle or Snatcher come out at least as downloadable games and side scrolling action adventure games like Out of This World as well.

I do like and appreciate what Quantic Dream have done. To me they have evolved Graphic adventure gaming into something fresh. Now, hopefully more Devs come out with similar yet at the same time vastly different gaming experiences and style. HR type games set in wacky worlds, Sci/fi, horror and whatever other settings could be great.

Maybe someone will take space combat style games and evolve them as well. The same could be done for FMV games. With a good scrip, decent interface, low budget decent actors and engaging game-play could work.

We need more Quantic Dream, Thatgamecompany, Media Molecule, etc but what we really need are gamers that are willing to support other types of games besides shooters.

[HeartDisease]

how can it be said that the game industry is being ruined? its growing at an exponential rate every year. its going to surpass every other form of entertainment media soon if it has not already. its just that the industry isnt that small little world where devs compete for your money with innovation. now that its mainstream its been changed to meet the new demand the masses ask for. the masses want another COD game or lfd3 they will get it. masses reject any game thats not 1080p 16XAA, they will get all games focusing on pixels over story. you can certainly blame the masses for changing the industry , its just you that views it as ruined. i think its ruined tooo but you could probably find hundreds of salivating kids that think this is the best year ever with a new cod, gow3, halo reach, or (insert yawnfest game name here).

there are still plenty of developers making good games. perhaps you pass them up cause they are not 1080p, 16XAA?

[corneliuscrust]

Is that it has become BIG business.

With that comes unrelenting greed. Which is why we are in the state we're in.

[kragg]

Can't we all just get along?

[Aevan]

My opinion differs from yours, now we must fight to the death!

[Unicron]

People vote with their dollars. That's all I'm going to say.

[gano]

yup
and my dollars vote no on M$.
And fps every yr,dlc, half par/complete games and dvd.

[Aevan]

The point of the article, as I had discussed with one of our other bloggers in the wee hours of the morning, is that Developers are making games that will make them money. What is making them money is what Gamers want, and what they see gamers want is what gamer behavior tells them.

Games are too hard, so here is walk through mode with Luigi. Here is a special weapon that you get for doing this certain thing that completely obliterates an entire room in one shot. [Cerberus Network Exclusive Content etc]

Games need to be prettier. Alright, we'll focus the majority of our team on graphics and sacrifice time and effort that could have been put into other things like game play and story.

Games need to be more sexualized. Forget about character background or really fleshing them out as a person, as long as the flesh is nice to look at. If we put more breasts into this game, people won't care that we forgot what we were doing as far as plot.

Now, does that make it the gamer's fault...since they are the ones buying all this tripe and drivel, and giving the developers money to continue to make the same game over and over with 2,3 and 4 tacked onto the end?

or is it the Developer's fault for going where the money is and not putting effort into trying anything new for fear of complete failure?

There's your discussion. The article may be an insult to the readers, but it's only going to insult those that are guilty of one, if not all of the three things I mentioned. and if it does?

Have I ever been one to sugar coat my opinion on anything?

[Knuxxx]

Think about it, Devs keep marketing to the casual market, butt hat's just it, they're casual. They haven't bought a game since the last wii sports.

Gamers are the ones tuning into E3s podcasts, looking into the newest games and devs and engines trying to decide what'll be the newest household name type game to come out. Sadly the price for games has increased in an otherwise decreasing economy; we can't afford to experiment on games because we can't fund it. So we do our research extensively on games we become interested in or we stick with what we know. And since CoD/Halo/Killzone are some of the few titles that made it over this gen, they sell more. The rest you can figure out

True enough, especially on here you see pixel counting, polygon comparing extremists who use comparison shots as a reason to say "game X is better than game Y (on _ console)" but every group of people has their extremists. Only thing is when you talk about games like that, that's like someone talking bad about your favorite shirt or something, it's only natural you'd take offense and retaliate

[tiamat5]

I don't know why people keep bring Sony into this. Sony has tried time and time again to innovate with their games but always get ridicled, attacked and put down for it. Heavy Rain was an attempt to try to create an adult themed narrative game. Even if some people didn't think it worked as well as it should, this kind of thinking should be encouraged so the next game could be better. Instead you shoot down any attempt at innovation and run out and buy the same Geow, the same COD, the same Halo, the same LFD everytime because they give you three new maps, four new weapons and 2 extra character while you ignore the shoddy story, the short campaign , the numerous glitches and so on. And then have the nerve to come here, while playing this junk, to tell us our game of the year with 150 awards is overated because Halo didn't win them? That HR has plot holes while Geow and Halo so called 'stories' would get a D- at best in an English class. Please

[Horny Melon]

This article completely misses valid points.

Games suck because we have three publicly traded companies dominating the field. When you have shareholders involved the new goal of the company becomes "Sell the cheapest piece of shit for the most amount of money."

Gamers willingly defend actions that make gaming less of a value: Paying for internet access twice , buying DLC that is already on the disc, etc

When gamers stay with the familiar past the point of reason: Buying Halo 90,000,000 and not mirrors edge, buying final fantasy 400,000,000,000
and not demon souls......

[CharlesDCI]

Gamers in a way are ruining the industry. Not all of us off course, just the ones who whine about the games themselves, and want them changed to a point where they wont be challenging anymore.

Piracy could greatly effect gaming even more if we don't watch it.

Gaming is all about choice. While some of the "look at me I'm dissing COD so that makes me militant" crowd doesn't seem to understand is that you don't have to play those kind of shooters. There are way to many games out there to choose from, and all it takes is having an open mind.

You want to "save" gaming? Stop playing the same games, try something new. Actually buy them, and stop whining if they are to hard, or not tailored just for you.

[antihiroprotagonist]

This article is fucking terrible and you don't know what you're talking about. I've been in this industry, professionally for over 5 years. Please stop writing about things that make you look like a dipshit.

"Do you think there is a difference between the 360 and the PS3 regarding how various games look? When a game is to be released, do you scour the internet looking for screen cap comparisons so you can decide which version is worth buying?
You’re all idiots."

No, you're an idiot. Considering the treatment a few games are getting when they ported to specific consoles; it's completely understandable that people would do this. The failure is not the consumers, it is the big heartless companies that buy out the little guys and shit out sequels and bump up the price, cutting out used game sales and fucking everyone over with pre-order exclusives and money grubbing dlc. Fuck you for writing this article and giving more ammunition to those that are fostering the creative death of a once creative industry. Also, in regard to piracy affecting things so much. A lot of of this is blown out of proportion by industry heads that think the number of pirated games=sales lost. This is complete bullshit; many of the pirates wouldn't have bought those games anyway. If you take that number and add it to the total of actual sales, you'd realize the would never have gotten that many sales anyway. Now, I do agree that whining about difficulty and multiplayer should stfu up go away. I also agree, that this does affect SOME games in the future, but these aren't the biggest determining factors. Now please, shut up.

[Alos88]

Gamers are ruining gaming, moviegoers are ruining movies and trees are ruining carbon dioxide.

[djfullshred]

I don't know about ruining the industry, but this is a good article with some very good points about some lameness in the video game scene these days.

But while the big budget games cater to the lowest common denominator, there are always nice alternatves from the smaller game studios.

[BlueEye]

This guys is talking about the majority of gamers, but there are still loads of gamers who arent PS3, 360 or even Wii-Fanboys (and arent just "casual gamers" that have all the consoles and always inspects which console has the best graphic in a certain game, talks shit and complains about every little thing, and there are two groups of gamers who are the boob obsessed ones, perverts (who have had a girlfriend and arent virgins) and virgins, most of them are young teenagers so dont start talking about how much a loser some guy on a forum is for liking games with boobs in them.

[goalweiser]

I agree with the concept of the article...just not necessarily all the reasoning.

1) Gamers are sheep. Microsoft raises Xbox Live prices. The majority bends over and pays. Sony tells you can only have 5 PS3s attached to your PSN ID. We don't unite and force them to change the policy.

2) Gamers in general don't support new IPs especially now. ModNation Racers is 10X the racer Mario Kart was but gets perhaps 1/50 of the respect. LittleBigPlanet, Alan Wake, Heavy Rain, MOVE, and Kinect are all innovative...but the majority of gamers want to fight against the grain because it's considered cool to be a "rebel."

3) Fanboyism is a result of ignorance. These people lack the pedigree to realize that systems nor games should be exclusive in their collection. While one person may favor one, they should also realize the faults as well. Ignorance of competition and biases towards certain genres result in a very myopic selection of game types.

THAT SAID...the Devs/Publishers are just as much to blame.

1) TOO MANY GAMES! Why the hell is there 7 games coming out each month in the Fall and Winter that they know I want to buy? Why don't they work together to space heavy hitting titles and big franchises apart so gamers can afford them when they release.

They cry about piracy but what the Hell do they expect? The US is predominantly Middle class and I don't know of many people who can afford more than 2 games a month. That's why I Gamefly!

2) Pricing....$60 for a game. Seriously? You put in a new storyline with the same graphics and a few enhancements? Halo...EA Sports...practically every game and then they expect us to pay full price for an adventure we've already had.

And they know the games are too expensive. Now they're including free "Online
Passes" with newly released games. WHATEVER...free my foot.

3) Greedy. This is a combination of the two above. They don't want to work together with competitor's and they don't want to adjust their pricing. Nobody wants to take the chance to be original except for a few famous creators because it would cost too much money.

At the end of the day, it doesn't matter. Gamers don't have the backbone to stand up to the companies because they can't live without their Halo and devs/publishers don't really give a crap about us. They are exceptions on both sides...unfortunately, the majority of the voices make the most noise.

"The masses are a**es."

[Redempteur]

mod nation racer is a new IP and mario kart is a solid franchise that keep delivering .. whatever who you think is better they don't have the same scope and the same appeal ..they are in entire différent ligues.
When MNr will optimise ( even more) their loading and will reach a state where you can talk about it to non gamers and they know what you're talking about ..comparisons will make sense .

Also LBP , Heavy rain reached succès ...LBP sold very well and is getting a HUGE sequel , and HR is reaching 2 millions ..

I agree on POINT 3.

as for the rest of your rant , i won't comment.. but yeah too many high profiles games and you're sure to have some good games left behind ... march 2010 was awefull on that aspect and this winter will not be any better

[palaeomerus]

And here we have yet another confused little idiot claiming that unpopular games should be popular just because he or she likes them and then loaudly bitching about the ignirance of other people for disagreeing. It's narcisssitic self righteous crap.

Dear doofus, your "good" games are not necessarily good to everybody else. You're "bad" games are not bad to everybody else either. Nobody elected you to save the gaming industry by telling people what they SHOULD like. Noone sees your preferences as being critical to the survival of the gaming industry. So why the hell do you?

This article is completely ridiculous and fatuous.

If games were the way you claim they should be then probably ever FEWER of them would sell.

[LowDef]

I would like to pretend that I'm all high and mighty, and deny all fault, but I completely understand where this is coming from. But like other commenters have already said, the article comes off as an over-reaction.

I definitely agree with your statements about difficulty and competition in games. While there are certainly exceptions, it seems as though more recent titles are far easier than past games, and as a result gamers seem to complain a lot when things don't go their way. But this seems like less of a problem caused by gamers (I'll go back to complaining gamers later on), and more of an attempt by developers to include a more expansive audience. There are far more people playing games nowadays than there were in the past. The elitist mentality doesn't really have the same place in the industry that it used to. And even if it does, it's certainly not within the majority. If you want to make an incredibly difficult game that does justice to these classic titles, one has to anticipate lackluster sales as a result. When publishers are already spending millions on a game, they can't afford to dick around just because the '"mature crowd" will complain. Honestly, all devs need to do is create more options for gamers; more difficulty and gameplay modes are certainly a start. By spending just a little more time on the product, they can create a more whole experience for anyone who wants to jump into it. And that would fit in easily with the goals of the publishers/marketers/big evil corporations/whatever.

To mix both the anonymity of online interaction with the competition found in gaming, and to then expect that some individuals not act like complete assholes, is unreasonable at best. Look at the comments on this page, even. Almost everybody has to argue about something (myself included). That's just how it works. But there are gamers taking notice, and a quick search will reveal dozens of organizations and groups dedicated to creating more relaxed and enjoyable game experiences for anyone who wants to do away with the swearing matches in games. We're hardly an unfeeling and sheepish mass who all think the same.

[LowDef]

Personally, the whole console-wars and graphic comparison deal is getting irritating. But I can see where it has merit. If a gamer wants to compare screen captures to see if one game is more sparkly than another, have at it. Games of old look like grainy pixels because they only had grainy pixels to work with; it wasn't a design decision. If the creators of those games had access to the technology we do now, those games would look a lot different. If you have these immensely powerful 3D-generating engines at your fingertips, why not use them? You're paying for a whole package, and graphics are a big part of that. If a game doesn't look the way they want, a gamer probably won't buy it.

I do completely agree with the comments on sexuality. I absolutely hate the stigma attached to male gamers, but it's something I have to deal with. I've seen countless numbers of studies and statistics that run in every direction; "the average gamer is a middle-aged male", "the average gamer is a working-age female", "the average gamer is a teenage male", it really never ends. Whatever the real stats may be, the point that matters is how everyone else sees us as a whole, and the industry appears to be tailored for a male audience. Would Lara Croft have been as successful an icon had she not been designed to look the way she does? Most likely not. The same goes for the Dead or Alive series, or any other franchise featuring voluptuous females (Ivy, I'm looking at you). It's a shame, really, but that means the responsibility falls on us to properly represent ourselves. If there's a game that seems to rely solely on the female lead's assets in order to gain sales, just don't buy it. It's really that easy. I bought DOA4, because I like the combat style, but I am well aware of the type of imagery that game relies on. And if the developers continue to focus on T&A like they did with the Xtreme spinoff, I certainly won't be buying the next iteration. That's a personal choice, and I'm sure there are plenty of gamers who would make similar decisions with other titles for the same reason. But again, to expect that type of decision from the whole is unreasonable.

While the arguments make sense, I don't think our current situation is as bad as the article suggests. Though a majority might fall into the traps you mentioned, there are still quite a few decision-makers still paying attention, and we're going to be just fine. And just look at the film and music industries if you need further proof. We have a lot further to fall before we need to start looking for signs of apocalypse.