Igarashi: DS the only platform in which it's acceptable to publish 2-D games

Koji Igarashi, who has been the producer of many Castlevania titles, has commented on the state of 2-D games and how he perceives it as only being acceptable on the DS.

[Valay]

2-D games have definitely been accepted on the DS (Might and Magic: Clash of Heroes is my latest favorite 2-D game on the system, by the way). But I wish companies would take more risks with 2-D. Muramasa: The Demon Blade proved that such a style can work on consoles.

[Skip_Bayless]

2D games are welcome anywhere, but I don't want major developers working on 2D games because there would be lesser 3D epic games. There is room for 2D games to give me a break from being tired of playing all these 3D games, so 95% of games should still stick to 3D.

[rockleex]

Lots of 2D games there.

[Bereaver]

I still love 2-D games as long as they are well... interesting....

If EarthBound for snes or Megaman X or.... anything around those lines came out just now for the first time ever. I would be all over that.

[toaster]

It's not on DS.

[Hisiru]

No, it's not 2D. SF4 is a 3D fighting game with sidescroller view.

[dirthurts]

Works really well with 2D. Wario Shake it was very good, and looked pretty good too.
I don't feel it really has enough oomph to push 3D that is up to todays standards. A few titles look nice, but it's not the norm.

[gumgum99]

The DS is one of the few that 2D games flourish, but its not the only one. The Wii can also produce some amazing retail 2D games.

[Timesplitter14]

Sorry but PixelJunk games are amazing and I love tham on my PS3

[Rybnik]

Braid
Trine
geometry wars
superstardust
the list goes on. I think its obviously accepted and successful on all the major consoles. Just most of these games are downloads :) ?? Did he just forget about Xbox Live Arcade, Playstation Store, and the Virtual Console. ??

[SilentNegotiator]

*Puts PSP (which is playing Castlevania:SotN) and PS3 (PixelJunk Shooter) on pause.

Pray tell.....why is that?

[PS360WII]

becuase in the abundance of 2D games the majority of them do well on the DS. You will still see the random 2D game on the other consoles but the DS seems to be the platform where it can support many 2D titles in droves and they all sell well at full price and not the downloadable price range of 5-10 dollars.

That's all he's saying. What he's not saying, however, is that you shouldn't be allowed to make 2D games on other platforms. You can and people do so no worries

[RockmanII7]

And I don't think he means XBLA/PSN games, more like retail games.

[lightningsax]

Oh, Igarashi. Pixeljunk titles, Shadow Complex, and NSMB Wii say hello! The PSP is made for great 2D games too (Hammerin' Hero comes to mind), and the more 3d-controlling games on there hurt my hands on that stupid analog nub. Also, what is it with older creators and their fear of serious downloadable games?

A great Castlevania game needs only the support of XBLA, PSN, and/or a Wii disc to be accepted by the globe as an immense and enjoyable 2D game. The limits on size there are much better than the limits of size, graphics, and sound on a DS card.

Great Castlevania games haven't been accepted on those systems because they haven't been made yet.

[Digitaldude]

Pixeljunk anyone?

[pixelsword]

Not to mention other games like the recently released Mega Man, Flow, anything Pixel Junk.

I admire your desire to want to push the software, Igarashi; but I would also say that if well done, and really pushing the GPU and abilities of each console, I think it can be acceptable in your eyes.

[raztad]

I need to try PixelJunk Shooter

[Alex_Mexico]

Megaman 9 (on PS360), Shadow Complex, Bionic Commando, Rocket Knight Adventures, Contra/Castlevania Rebirth tell me otherwise.

I dont know what they are waiting for. Shadow Complex showed there IS a market for these kinds of games as downlodable games. MAKE A 2.5D Castlevania game in HD NOW. Its easy money damn it!

DO IT!

[RememberThe357]

Street Fighter 4 is 3D but is a side-scroller fighter. Shadow Complex is 3D but is a side-scroller shooter.

[SpoonyRedMage]

@above: You've all proven his point pretty much by listing a bunch of downloadable games that are sold for much less.

2D games have been relegated to downloads as if they're naturally inferior and not worth as much.

Plus look at Blazblue, complete flop. One of the best fighting games out there.

[Baka-akaB]

Flop ? WTH ? it exceeded expectations and sold out quite early and often . it's a niche game that outperformed .

Sf4 selling 2 millions was one thing and oddity , it was the official return of the most known fighting game .
Usually the rest of the time the franchises to do millions consistantly are only Tekken and Soul calibur ., and the rest struggling far far below , be they 2d or 3d .

Blazblue is released at a time where even though fighting games came back full force , it's still a widely marginal genre that only attract a few fanatics like myself .

The rest of the world wouldnt care , or would make the mistake of buying sf4/tekken/sc4/XXX game once everywhile , complain that it's too hard and time consuming , would resell it quickly and just go buy some UFC/wrestling game .

[SpoonyRedMage]

Hey, it only sold 400K which is apparently a flop, especially considering the cost of HD development and that according to Capcom 2D is more expensive than 3D.

It means it was outsold by flops such as Star Ocean IV and The Last Remnant, which are niche as well, with an incompatible userbase.

It'll be interesting to see how well the DSiware Blazblue game will do, although it is a 3D title. They likely won't release numbers though, they never do with downloadables.

[Baka-akaB]

Uh ? Now i have to wonder if you're just kidding , it's not always transparent online

Star ocean was never a niche game . I dont remember how well SO1 peformed , but it was pretty good back then , and Star ocean 2 and 3 were only behind the obvious main Final fantasy games and Dragon Quest . It used to sell millions .
S04 only failed to meet those usual expectations on 360 .

And Last remnant was never as a niche neither , it was a big push for a new big franchise , a big push also toward a western audience .. but again on the wrong platform for japan , and with a western audience that didnt care much anyway .

As for blazblue its cost wasnt that big . For starters the backgrounds and many effects are 3d . And the animations arent as detailled , they skips a lots of frames for speed impressions . Regardless of BB's awesome quality , it's animation is hardly near the like of SF3 or later sf2 hd and kofXII .

BB's sprites arent even that detailled either ... half of it's defects and flaws are masked by the hd resolution , and the speed of the game ... but if you take the numerous full sized sprites , either fixed or animated , it's easy to notice .

Those factors helped considerably the developpement . What capcom mentions as incredibly costly are projects such as sf2 HD remix and king of fighters XII . Both entirely drawn and fully animated .

[SpoonyRedMage]

I was being half-facetious about it flopping, it didn't flop if they made money(which they likely did) but it didn't light up the charts either.

SO4 wasn't the best example but the JRPG is in decline with no console JRPG selling a million yet this generation(two days and that changes). SO4 did particularily bad as well(worse than TLR even). But even compare Blazblue to Madworld, Madworld has sold 350K now and is regarded as a flop.

But you outlined something when you said that SO4 was on the wrong platform, is that not what Igarashi is kind of saying? that Blazblue may have been on the wrong platform, the PSP version is a port but I think if was pushed as a PSP game it would have done better, even with the severely declined and underperforming PSP market.

[Redempteur]

"But you outlined something when you said that SO4 was on the wrong platform, is that not what Igarashi is kind of saying?"

i think that "Baka-akaB " is saying that SO4 was on the wrong platform because it was a game not made for the target audience of the platform ..

I believe SO4 would have done better if they didn't try to publish a JRpg ( done with all Jrpg clichés you can find ) on a market that doesn't care about it . And then it flopped.

As for Igarashi, i just think this a rant against the 3D market that prevent Full 2d games to exist (as retail games).As a gamer what should matter is the core of the game not the fact that it's 2d or 3d .. But on that point i'm in the minority ...EVERYONE WANT 3D!

Also the Jrpgs are NOT in décline Few competitors came to challenges the masses in this generation and so far when they did it was a relative success (if not a complete succès ).
So far , tales of vesperia is a success , FF is looking good , no suikoden YET , star ocean flopped because of bad decisions ,no atelier games published yet in US , no breath fo fire , no valkyrie profile (YET) ,dragon quest sales are strong so are monster hunter's ..and the list goes on ..

THE jrpg genre isn't in decline ..they haven't started to come

[Baka-akaB]

@spoonyredmage

I can only completely disagree with everything you just said for various reasons :

1. fighting games never do better on portable than their home consoles counterpart... never . The idea that is should have been instead on psp is ludicrous at best . The market for fighting game is at home or arcades , with only a portion having fun on handheld with it .
I do that it will get a psp version , and that it's already even remote playable on psp ... what i disagree with is that idea that it should have been psp instead for a bigger success .

2. I feel that you are just being a bit coy here .
So4 is on the wrong platform because well it is the wrong platform for a jrpg market in japan .. as demonstrated by history , sales and popular opinion .

The decline excuse doesnt work . I insist on the fact that SO has always been one of the top 5 jrpg sellers whenever released . Had So4 been released on the machine people assumed as the de facto "jrpg land" right from each console's launch it would have performed better .

Had so4 been released on ps2 or ps3 it would have easily done a million around it's launch . Hell one look at sales of the remakes on psp confirms that it was a matter of most jrpg fans , hardcore or not , not having the console s04 was released on .

3. Imo you got some pretty wrong and spiffy comparisons since the start of the conversation . You seems to decide that games that arent niches are , and that when they are niche games , then it's all the same ..

Why should Blazblue care if Madworld sold more , less or not ? The only concerns it would have would be in comparison to this year's offering of fighting games ... and direct concurrent such as sf4 and kof xii . And the results are so far great .

Stick with genres and their history . Fighting games have been DEAD in the general public's eyes for years . Unlike action adventure games . Madworld failed to the hype set by other people ... but it was likely to outsell any small fighting game .

"easy and more accessible" games such as tekken and soul calibur have been the few ones setting charts on fire with a blockbuster realisation , ad campaign , and budget .

But core fighting games 2d and 3d alike such as some of the street fighter spin offs , snk spin offs , snk's main games , ARC Systemworks and their Guilty gear etc .. struggled a lot , and mostly sold to only a small and consistently shrinking fanbase ...

It went so deep down and low that any anime casual fighting games , regardless of their qualities , such as naruto , dbz , sain seiya bleach etc would usually outsell most of those fighting game .

At least until this year with sf2 hd emix , SF4 , Blazblue , mvc 2, tekken , and a bit before sc4 ...

So yeah sorry but Blazblue actually highlighting the charts for some time even if short , selling to that amount and actually expending their fanbase is a big big success .

So what if some actually very hyped action adventure games sells as much ? It seems only the current natural order of thing , with fighting game hardly the priority and driving force of the current industry .

Hell why am i even arguing and what am i even arguing about here ?
Yakuza 3 , an easily bigger title in popularity , and wich a quite huge budget , sold around 500-600k (albeit only on one platform) .

Blazblue cost easily way less than any big title , and sold big titles numbers , and you're telling me it's supposed to be a flop or a big whoop of meh and nothing ? that's actually setting charts on fire and a lot of money in the bank .

[PS360WII]

not to really butt in yet when SO4 Internation Edition lauches we will see if the decline is real or if it was just the wrong platform. Most likely it'll sell well but only time will tell

[Baka-akaB]

Nah i'm not convinced we would be able to see it there . The game is expected but is no longer "fresh" imo , and some people might still got a grudge about it being multi .

It will sell well i bet , but lost some of the impact and luster it might have had then . I dont care much mind you , day one purchase for me .

Anyway i agree with redempteur ... people have been quick to call a big jrpg decline , when for so long nothing major was released .

Then some big stuff like Lost odyssey , Tales of vesperia , Star Ocean 4 , and arguably Last remnant got released but already nerfed in japan by the platform of choice .

However when a big gun get indeed released on a platform full of jrpg fans like Dragon Quest IX it easily shines and eat up charts .

games from Atlus and NIS are consistently on the rise and selling better each game , like shin megami tensei and persona ...
And let's not forget Demon soul's immense success even in the west

Hell one could argue that the two tales on wii are getting nerfed by the choice of platform (AGAIN i'm talking sales figures , not their quality) but they are still doing ok .

Seriously with :

-the big titles at the right place selling great
-small "indie and niche" games selling well
-a huge market thriving on handheld for the lazy devs , even smaller devs , and some nice gift from levle 5 , square , capcom (monstur hunter anyone ?)etc ...
- and the next final fantasy already a sure thing ...

PLUS most of the major rpg series not even being released yet ...

HOW the Fooshizzle do some guys manage to see a decline ??
There might be indeed when all things will be said and done ... but stop acting like Michael Patcher and analyzing data you dont have yet

[SpoonyRedMage]

1. I don't think because it's a fighter it would have done better on the PSP, I think because it's a 2D game it would have done better. It's nothing to do with being a fighting game.

2. JRPG market has declined, not one JRPG has sold a million on consoles, not on the PS3 either and Dragon Quest is the only franchise I'm aware of that has done better this gen than last. It's probably not in the top five by the way, Pokémon, FF, Dragon Quest, Kingdom Hearts and Golden Sun make the top five for average sales(I think, they all sell more than Star Ocean).

3. Madworld's not an action/adventure game, it's a brawler, a very niche brawler. Brawlers have been in worse shape than fighting games considering there's not multimillion selling brawler's out now. Plus you consider that Madworld was hyped but that Blazblue wasn't and also disregard Blazblue's stellar reviews.

And fine don't argue that it wasn't a flop but don't pretend that it's a majorly successful game either, 400K is small numbers.

@^: You're assuming that the PS3 is a repeat of the PS2 and you mentioned Tales of the Wii being held back by the platform but if we use the logic that the preceding console's sales idnicate the sales on the platform now then the Wii should do the best because Symphonia on the Gamecube is the only one to sell over one million.

[PS360WII]

Well now the best selling Tales of game was on the GC so the platform was right it's just that there have been 10 Tales of games and some very close to each other relase date wise.

As far as not many jrpg being released I can only help but laugh because I'm a big handheld gamer and I can hardly keep up with all the jrpgs being released!

wait a tick! developing a game on a handheld is not lazy developing -.- (though if I read too heavily into that statement I do apologize)

[Baka-akaB]

1. But it got everything to do with it ...
Just show us fighting games , 2d if you want , selling better on psp or ds then ...

2. See above . See if sites like n4g , kotaku , vg24 etc etc were as prominent as now , you'd probably seeing back then , before final fantasy X gont released and ended an awful lack of jrpg on ps2 , articles of dooms with content about declines bla bla bla .

Not enough big jrpgs ? Less sales .. let's talk when all the big ones are there .

3 . About pokemon and golden sun , this indeed my bad , but i was mentioning home consoles . but fine let's include them . Doesnt change the fact that Star ocean 2 it's basically more than a million on ps1 ... it was the 12th or 13rd best selling game of it's year , and easily above jrpgs not final fantasy and dragon quest .
Star ocean 3 ? come on same scenario ... with more than 700k copies in the west alone .

3. brawler is often included in the broad category ... but fine let's go with your semantic .
Madworld was the title that was supposed to shoulder the 3rd party wave of mature and hardcore titles . obivously it was unfair to pile that on him , but it still did .

That it would beat given , it's genre and hype , a game from a semi- comatose genre , and rom a smaller dev (and let's not pretend not , even Arc system's publisher smells small , niche and indie) would be not failure from said fighting game , nor a surprise .

4 . And well sorry but 400k are only considered disappointing when it's from a big huge title .

Blazblue is a new ip , in a niche , from a small even if loved dev , with a small publisher , and with the direct concurrence at the time , of The big bad wolf of the fighting game SF4 , and an even more direct one from a 2d competitor KofXII (wich now flopped but that's another matter) .

400k , and a spot back then in the top 10 of both consoles in japan , and many list list amazon ?
That's a big splash and indeed marking the charts . But feel free to disagree

[Baka-akaB]

@PS360WII

Nono i lump lazy devs in the list , cause there are a few .. but the following ones are only good stuff .
Ds/psp's offering in jrpg have been stellar so far ...
And hardly in any declines ...

So again not enough yet home consoles major players ? One that made it and sold big (dq9) ? and a thriving handheld market ?
I await proofs of such big decline ... and we wont have them until we see how did most franchises truly performed , when looking back at this gen .

[PS360WII]

Ah cool. Well alright then :)

Yeah home consoles haven't been getting much rpg love (though I would argue 360 has been doing fine with that but I don't really want to get into that so much lol) as it does take a long time to develop them along with the HD nature of them as well.

[SpoonyRedMage]

1. Well the only fighting games on the PSP and DS are either Anime, which you disregard(but Bleach and Jump Ultimate All-stars outsold Blazblue on the DS) or the major players(Soul Calibur and Tekken on the PSP) and then there's Guilty Gear, which did sell worse than Blazblue so I'll admit, for Arc System Works Blazblue has been a success.

2. Star Ocean was indeed a legitimate flop for other reasons but part of my point was that it still did better and RPGs are as polarised as Fighting games with Pokémon being more than twice as big as FF, FF being nearly as twice as Dragon Quest, DQ being twice the size of Kingdom Hearts and Golden Sun being nearly half of KH.

3. Again part of my point is that Madworld is considered a failure and is still niche when compared to BB and Platinum are very small, with Bayonetta being their really first success, even when you consider their games as Clover like Okami, God Hand and Viewtiful Joe.

4. 400K may have been considered a success for Arc System Works but in the grand scheme of things it still sold quite low and most importantly is not indictive of 2D gaming being successful on the systems.

Also about the decline, Final Fantasy has been declining since the release of VII which each game selling less and less, there are reports of SE only 1.3 mil copies in the first week meaning it will be the least selling since VII.

[Baka-akaB]

@SpoonyRedMage

1. We were dicussing it because you said it would sell better on portables .. my point remains that it's highly unlikely , even impossible looking back at the history of fighting games 2d or not . And the fact it's a fighting plays more than it's 2d or 3d origine in such case .

I also did mention earlier the case of anime games now often selling higher , those games would sell higher as pachinko as well and proportionally to their amount of anime heroes inside... but fine

In the end psp/gba versions of 2d street fighters dont outsell home consoles versions . Nor does tekken 5 psp outsells both ps2 and ps3 versions , same goes with tekken 6 , and soul calibur .

2 Difference is rpg got a still huge foothole , decline or not (wich you have yet to begin to proves ).
Fighting games are only getting back , and far from all of them with the full backing of a huge entity like namco or capcom .

4. 400k is a lot regadless of Aksys/Arc system ... it's even a bigger victory when you factor them and their conditions in ..

The japanese market is full of games whose lifesales dont even approach 50-100k , and yet below that bar , given their budget , the size of their company , they are deemed successfull .

hell atlus and Nis make a living of porting such games , and when the smaller ones do those expected 50k , it's a success already ...

Sega released a game with an advertising and developpement budget that would support 10-20 others games , and at more than 500k is bringing a lots of return investment money and is a success ..

The only way 400k would be considered small numbers for any game , would according to those criteria , on their own or combined :

- the cost exceed largely the sales
- the publisher expect far more
- some fans expected more
- It is the sequel of a game that used to sale much more .

And guess what blazblue fits none of those criteria . New ip , small/medium budget , sales expectations exploded , presence in media create top 10 weekly charts for both consoles , fans happy ... Why the hell isnt this a big success again ?

It's no wonder then , than a sequel is already quickly almost there , and a psp version as well .

PS :

Again about the decline ... the ps2 had very little rpgs worth mentioning before final fantasy X opened the flood . Like now some of those early rpgs were excellent but didnt have huge sales or as good as hoped .

If n4g was there , we'd have seen endless and pointless "Are jrpgs dead ??" articles the same way we do now .
And yet the ps2 was a 3rd (or whatever number) golden era of jrpg , alongside the dreamcast ... and a few gc gems (and of course portables)

[Redempteur]

i feel like some points have changed over the course of this discution ..but ..oh well

Blazblue wasn't a flop ...it did well IMO .
Not only the franchise is well ( with a second opus coming ) but arc system works was satisfied with the sales so far ...and that's considering 400k was Us alone i think ... even if Japan is inclued we're still missing pal territories .BB wasn't armed to fight the likes of STREET , KOF , TEKKEN and the list goes on ..seeing that it's a new franchise with a system somewhat new in the west .( it wasn't new for me since i played arcana hearts 1 & 2 and Eternal fighter zero but that's another story .)

"JRPG market has declined, not one JRPG has sold a million on consoles, not on the PS3 either"
i disagree again . let's look at tales of vesperia ...LATE RELEASE on PAL territories AGAIN .. How could rpg do well if you don't give them a push ? So far Tales of is the only Big rpgs from an Old franchise ...THE REST ? ( eternal sonata , lost odissey , last remnant, valkyria chronicles and the list goes on ...AGAIN ) are new franchises ... And LO managed some great sales Thanks to a BIG marketing campaign ...

I feel like you're just declaring that everything has stopped or is in slow motion when THE BIG Names aren't there ... ( i won't list them again ) And so far Everything is showing that they don't have any problem When they arrive ...( dragon quest , monster hunter , pokemon all of them are doing good ) EVEN the useless pokemon games are selling ... i just don't see How the rpg genre is declining when all the factors , all the trials, all the releases are still incoming ...you're selling the fur when you have yet to kill the bear .

Worse some of these rpg did well on their console seeing that they were new and the budget they used to make them ...Sega for instance is quite happy with Valkyria for example ( with both anime and a sequel coming ) and that game sold 500k+ and that is more that enough for a tactical rpg ..and a new franchise ( only final fantasy tactics does better ).

i just don't understand why some people think that Jrpgs are dead when the West market is overflowing with Wrpgs and the Jrpgs are only starting to make their way here ...

"Final Fantasy has been declining since the release of VII which each game selling less and less, there are reports of SE only 1.3 mil copies in the first week meaning it will be the least selling since VII."
Again i disagree .
For instance , "Fastest-Selling Console RPG in a Single Day" is (Final Fantasy X). And despites fluctuation in sales they ALL ( the main FF ) sell well ...

FF7 is the start of teh decline , yet FF10 is the fastest rpg sold ?
Something isn't right there ...and it's not my sources .( i quote the guiness book )

[PS360WII]

It would be nice if FF didn't have to always be the RPG to get the ball rolling though. How long into this gen have we gone now without it and yet rpgs still come out? Nice ones in fact :) ah well. oh and the word flop can be used for any game depending who you ask ;) I think Spoony just used it as so many other members use that word with ease on million seller games haha

[SpoonyRedMage]

I believe it could have done better if it was a purely PSP game, it's just the way I see it, but not because of genre because I do think in general that fighting games do better on consoles but a 2D game would do better on the PSP.

Fine then it wasn't a flop, whatever. But then how many games labelled flops are? Was Okami a flop? It's getting a sequel and got a port and presumably made them money and came from a dev team which only sold small numbers. Just one small thing though, the 400K for BB was worldwide, not just Japan.;)

Now about FF declining.FFVII sold 9.72 mil, VIII sold 7.86 mil, IX sol 5.3 mil, X rebounded and sold 7.95, X-2 sold 5.21 mil, XII sold 5.68 mil. Fastest selling=!best selling. The general trend shows a decrease and even the spin offs are selling less and less.

And for FFXIII well FFVII through XII have all sold 1.8 million in the first week, with XII being the lowest, XIII is having 1.3 million copies shipped to retailers for the first week meaning that sales will be 500K for first week. FF is very front loaded but as I said, fastest selling=!best selling.

As for Tales, all the modern iterations have undersold compared to the past ones and whilst White Knight Chronicles may be a new IP it's still sold less than Dark Cloud, which was also a new IP. Pokémon Diamond and Pearl sold less than Ruby and Sapphire, although the Gold and Silver remakes are subverting that trend. DQIX is the major outlier though and the DQ franchise had shown hints of decline(which may have took hold if IX hadn't subverted it) as although DQVIII was on a bigger userbase, at a better time, and released in an extra region it sold less than DQVII.

EDIT: 'I think Spoony just used it as so many other members use that word with ease on million seller games haha'

Yer.... that actually was part of it...

@V: Tales games are underselling compared to Symphonia which sold a million on a userbase of 24 million, where all three consoles this gen have a bigger userbase?

WKC has sold how much in Japan, VGChartz has it at 370K which I think is too low, I heard it was 500K. JRPGs usually get 50% or more of their sales from Japan. Dark Cloud sold over 1.2 million which means WKC is unlikely to match it.

[Redempteur]

"As for Tales, all the modern iterations have undersold compared to the past ones and whilst White Knight Chronicles may be a new IP it's still sold less than Dark Cloud, which was also a new IP."

i disagree again ..

First my point was too prove that FF games are still well ..and again the same thing you did with ff can be done with other franchises like resident evil or gran turismo That means ..nothing ..yet they aren't in a bad shape in any way ... FF games are still coming and still played . I mean people are coming to play it ..and the games sells well. Hardly a decline in the rpg genre .

For tales games ..undersold to WHAT ? Tales of games are doing very well ( especially in japan ).
BTW okami was flop because the studio couldn't make another game ( it closed ) Had it been a succes things would have been different.
okamiden is just an attempt to revive the franchise .

A game that flopped isn't necessary a Bad game ... because a game can be plagued by bad marketing decisions or a bad conjoncture .

Please about WKC , wait for the us release before comparing things .

Finally just because that word is badly used doesn't mean that everyone should step back and let others use them the wrong way ... If nobody says anything then the spiral of stupity just turn faster .

GAME A sell 5 mil
GAME B sell 4 mil
GAME C sell 3 mil

GAMES are still a succes in sales but that game genre is in decline ... Of course BUT it's still a success !!Where is the problem if the GAME is still sucessfull ? Selling ?Studio still alive ?

[Baka-akaB]

But again , and we are entiring a loop here ... those 2d games dont do better on psp in the case of fighting games . Street alpha 1 .. 2 .. 3 didnt do better at all , nor did darkstalkers or guilty gears ...

Dark cloud's number includes worlwide . And it was well a major technical breakthrough and probably the first big jrpg title before ffx indeed .

But White knight aint even released in the west yet , and you are already stomping on some "dead body" . Did you not notice that it easily and already outsold their previous big rpg Rogue galaxy in japan and Dark cloud 2 before that ? or that while not reaching Dark cloud 1 yet (or ever who knows ..) it's launch was still better ?

So basically there is a constant spiral downward , aka decline , yet oddly multiple brights spots keeps popping in , be it for old ips , and new ones ? If that's not "patcherism" , i dont know what it is ..

Okami ?i see it often called so .. but then is it because it's such a great game people assumes it should have done better ? Or did it undrperform accorded the publisher's expectation ? or both ?

Okami grossed 8 millions in USA alone and was then the 100th best seller of the year is all i know . And the wii version still in the end managed 280k ...
The way capcom handled it and clover studios , it seems as if they wanted more .
One would have to ask capcom execs the true "why" and how much those games costed .

My opinion is that Clover did fine enough , but not enough according to capcom for a team composed of star developpers and technicians .

EDIt :
Not when a huge part of Dark cloud when actually in the west . And yeah indeed WK has gone easily over 500k ... and while doing so outdid japanese releases of most , if not all Level's 5 creator owned rpg ... so it's far too weird , convenient and early to decide rather randomly , that it will not do the same in the west .

The more i look at it , the more cracks in see in your "rpg is Ze doom spiral " theory . Way to many up and downs in sales in many oldfranchise to declare so . And new ips definitely nips it in the bud in many cases

PS :

Seems bubbles are used , lets talk once more about the tales cases .
I dont get how you surmised that tales of games are doing less well ..

Tales of destiny 1 worldwide 830 k
Tales of phantasia remake on ps1 ? 540k japan
Tales of eternia (fake2) on ps1 766k in japan
Tales of rebirth +600k in japan
Tales of Destiny 2 on ps2 sold +800,000 copies in Japan
tales of symphonia gc more than a million worldwide
Tales of the Abyss ps2 ? 570k in japan , no idea about us numbers .. despite some pretty meh press overall .

I'm not going to list them all anyway (i just remember most people everywhere disliking Tales of Legendia , the black sheep here) ... but all around it's a consistent and solid seller . Add in the spin off and i've yet to see the fall of the tales franchise ...bare choices like vesperia on 360 instead of the other again more logical platforms

[PS360WII]

I think we've reached the sales decline vs game decline debate ;) ah nothing like talking about 2D games on the DS lol

[Redempteur]

Just make a 2D HD game ( like blazblue )

60fps ,1080p and nobody will complain

[PS360WII]

You guys are missing the point when you mention 5-10 dollar downloadable games. DS is still the only platform where it's acceptable to release a full priced 2D game. From a publisher standpoint (where the article is calling for) you want to release a game full price.

Other than the DS 2D games are nothing more than small titles that should only cost the price of an old NES game because they are 2D and therefor inferior. Now some of you don't think 2D games are bad but you still rather them be as a cheap downloadable than at the store for retail price.

[Baka-akaB]

Obviously that's how most people would think , and it's partially accurate .

However 2d games done right on any platform , AKA not a snes/nes/ps1 level 2d , are pretty awesome and easily prettier than their often badly textured or blocky 3d counterparts .

Obviously having proper 2d would cost , mostly time . And it's too late , aside from a few niches games and genre (like precisely muramasa and blazblue) , 2d games are tainted with the "2d in 2010 = disgaea graphics " stigma .

[PS360WII]

Yeah it's a shame. For me 8-bit will never die! I'm so happy about Mega Man 9 and now Mega Man 10 :) We need more of those if you ask me. It's not easy making a good old fashion game I'm sure what with all the tech devs have to work with.

Indeed it's great to see well made 2D games on any platform but you're right a lot just look at it like it's lazy programming... Which is odd because even with the old sprits in Disgaea the game is still awesome.

Which is where the DS comes in as it's more acceptable to have "poor" graphics on it. I quote because 2D isn't poor graphics it's just a different design choice.

[Redempteur]

exactly ..
i agree .. Most beautifull 2D games back then still look great

that's the charm of 2D

[Sangria]

I wouldn't mind a 2D game on Xbox 360 or PS3, when we see the awesome work of Vanillaware on Odin Sphere or Muramasa, or Arcs System with Guilty Gear and BlazBlue, we know 2D games on HD consoles can be truly epic.

[Tony P]

Even if it were true I don't see the problem tbh. DS has award-winning 2D games and most are much better than its 3D games.

This is all probably leading into some "DS is inferior" or "holding back" argument, but it's anything but imo. DS's 2D hits help keep 2D a fresh and viable format for gaming and frankly, it should. Great games don't 100% need to be in 3D.

Of course, that by no means changes my opinion on the matter of games "going DS". Which is to say, it shouldn't have to happen as often as it does.