Volition: We struggled with PS3 Red Faction

OXM UK reports that Volition Inc needed to draft in help from Sony to get Red Faction: Guerilla up to speed with the Xbox 360 version.

Associate Producer Sean Kennedy tells OXM UK that the problem was that the PlayStation3 has less memory to work with than the Xbox 360, which is why the extra help from Sony was needed.

[Hellsvacancy]

Im not a game programmer or anythin like that but wot i dont get is how come the Ps3 has such great lookin titles like Uncharted ,Mgs4, killzone 2 etc so y cant other devs be able to to the same?

Are they lazy

Can sumbody please explain

[BIoodmask]

I'm sure that a neutral third party would say things in an interview just to make you angry. One would think they know a little bit more about programming for all the different consoles than you and most of the people on this website.

Most threads that I read the comments on usually have at least one person calling developers lazy. It is almost expected now. Just because you think certain games look appealing has nothing to do with a consoles capabilities. That is solely your opinion.

[thor]

It's not that the devs are "lazy" per-se - they've just designed their engine with a lot of memory useage. Memory is one of the key things that can speed up performance of a PC, everyone knows this. Yet the PS3 is lacking in memory compared to the 360 (I think the OS takes up more & one of the GPU/CPU doesn't have access to all the memory).

The GPU in the PS3 is comparable in speed to the 360's GPU.
The Cell in the PS3 beats out the 360's CPU by a long way, but it doesn't handle multitasking well - you need to handle the sending of code fragments and shuffling different processes around YOURSELF instead of the processor just interlacing the threads.
The blu-ray drive in the PS3 is slightly slower than the top speed of a DVD-9 but it doesn't make much difference.

The memory in the PS3 is inadequate and THIS is the reason devs have problems. This is the main reason for problems with PS3 versions of games, especially open world games like Fallout 3 and now this. It's difficult to reduce memory consumption and then you end up needing to compress your data and decompress it on-the-fly using the SPUs - but then you need something to organise the processes that run on the SPUs and it will take a LOT of work.

The reason that a lot of games have a mandatory install on PS3 is to speed up the loading/streaming of data - it's not that the blu-ray drive is slow it's that more data needs to be streamed in more rapidly because there's not enough space in the memory.

[thereapersson]

The PS3 uses XDR ram, while the 360 uses a more standard RAM type that we are used to seeing in everyday PC's (GDDR3).

(taken from Wikipedia)

XDR DRAM or extreme data rate dynamic random access memory is a high-performance RAM interface and successor to the Rambus RDRAM it is based on, competing with the rival DDR2 SDRAM and GDDR4 technology. XDR was designed to be effective in small, high-bandwidth consumer systems, high-performance memory applications, and high-end GPUs. It eliminates the unusually high latency problems that plagued early forms of RDRAM. Also, the XDR DRAM have heavy emphasis on per pin bandwidth, which can benefit further cost control on PCB production. This is because fewer lanes are needed for the same amount of bandwidth. Rambus owns the rights to the technology. XDR is used by Sony in the PlayStation 3 console.[1]

----

If developers would start optimizing games for the high-performance architecture of the PS3 (i.e. making games lead platform on the PS3), we would see less of these problems. Hell, EA of all companies have done it (Dead Space, Mirror's Edge), so what is the problem here?

[Robearboy]

I dont think the devs are lazy, they are simply finding the architecture of the cell difficult to understand, a bit like someone who has worked with ferarri's for 30 years and are then given a Porche to fix up, they will be teething troubles

[thor]

@thereapersson

The XDR should have a higher speed than the DDR in the 360. I read somewhere that the PS3's OS takes a load more RAM than the 360's OS. Furthermore, the 360 has 512MB of shared RAM that can be accessed by both the CPU and GPU whereas the Cell can only access 256MB of XDR - and about 64MB of that is taken up by the OS. You can see where the problems arise.

[Software_Lover]

Everyone of those games you mentioned are exclusive and the dev time, especially KZ2, even MGS4, was a long process. Im sure they had more resources on hand than a 3rd party dev. But now that they have their problem fixed, Im sure when they make another game for the ps3 it wont be that much of a problem if any.

[jtucker78]

RE: 1.2

How come you don't have more bubbles thor?
Intelligently and articulately written with no biased opinions.

Bubs up.

[Foolsjoker]

The PS3 while yes uses different ram, it is actually the problem of multi-threading. The XBOX has 1 lump sum of memory to use, the PS3 has multiple smaller bits. So if you create your game just throwing everything into RAM your going to have issues with conversion, as you are not allocating memory you are just dumping. So converting it to a PS3 is a pain as you need to get multiple threads to be organized to amount to the total of the XBOX. While this seems like it is weaker, it is actually smarter as the strain of slowdowns and ability to handle more processes unobstructed becomes of great value.

Basically, the Dev's just didn't plan out their coding or they were lazy and didn't bother to read the "how to code for PS3 book"...hahaha

[Agent VX]

OMG!!! Here we go again... The PS3 is not the hardware super weight that Sony touted about. It is a fixed piece of hardware that will never get stronger, it horsepower is locked. The only thing they can improve on is how it is programmed.

First of all, the Bluray and Cell are expensive pieces of hardware solely due to the fact that they aren't mainstream mass produced items and not from them being some super duper electronic device. So in order for Sony able to keep the PS3 in the realm of mainstream consumer price index, they had to cut certain items or go with less expensive pieces of hardware. This was done by given the PS3 a older less performing video card and a less effective memory architecture. The decision to go with a cheaper less effective videocard and memory architecture is the sole reason why the PS3 struggles with games the 360 handles with ease in some cases.

Don't let fanboys fool you, most developers that aren't in bed with Sony, all say the same thing, the PS3 has significant performance issue with video rendering and memory related issues, never mind the slow read speeds of Bluray which is why you have so many GB's installs on the PS3.

Sony has had a strong history on overstating the performance of their gaming consoles and failing to deliver. The PS3 has kept this tradition strong, and developers are all saying the same thing. Also, any game that is out on the PS3 can easily be ran by the 360, so don't let the fanboys fools you with their usual Uncharted, MGS 4 and Rachet and Clank lies, these titles can be easily ran by the 360 and arne't graphically masterpieces like they say.

To clarify, the PS3 and 360 when you take in account all their strengths and weaknesses perform very similar. It really comes down to what games you like more. An up to date PC always smokes consoles!!!

[spandexxking]

Volition manged fine on the Ps3 version of Saints Row 2.
EDIT: so volition didnt make saints row 2 for ps3 my bad/sarcasm

[hay]

It's understandable that when lead platform is PC/Xbox360 devs will have difficulties programming for PS3 cause of architectural differences.

[thereapersson]

Wasn't the PS2 a hard system to develop for back in the day? Back when there was no XBOX, and it was just the PS2, I remember how good the first Red Faction was. Volition didn't seem to have any trouble developing for a "new and complicated" system like the Emotion Engine was.

My how times have changed!

[tordavis]

"Im not a game programmer or anythin..."

Stopped reading right there!

[PS3CELLGRILL]

I didn't want to get in this flame bait but all the games like MGS4,KZ2,UC,and GT5 were all funded by sony so those game gonna look better than most,developing and getting good results from PS3 want hurt big company's like EA but smaller company's it will,the PS3 was sony way to stay ahead of the 3rd party games like nintendo and it back fire on them because they're games will never sell like nintendo,so quit blaming the dev unless u are funding the cost to develop for this difficult machine. love PS3 forever best console ever hope that get me some bubbles hey im with the majority

[Darkseider]

The answer to this? LAZY DEVS.

@Thor

If they designed their engine to use a lot of memory, time for a redesign. Write elegant code that uses a small footprint instead of hacked crap that kinda works but is bloated to no end. There is no excuse for that other than laziness plain and simple.

@Agent VX

The hardware in the PS3 is indeed superior from a processor and memory standpoint. The problem is devs code for the greatest common denominator on a console, XBox 360, which is essentially a x86 pinned PC under the hood. They use sloppy coding just as they would on a standard x86 game PC to get the job done. Unfortunately that is not the CORRECT way to code anything.

@Nicolator

Sitting on a couch, eh? Here is one of the examples I use on my resume.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wik...

I know code. I also know when devs are lazy and let me assure you. This is a prime example of LAZY devs.

This is just a prime example of developers not willing to RTFM. It is a shame when they go out and say they are pushing limits of the PS3/XBox 360 when there are examples of much better games on both. They created the engine and the game for a PC w/ gobs of memory. In doing so coded it like absolute crap and then tried shoving their 5 lbs. of sh*t into a 3 pound bag. It just doesn't work like that hence, LAZY DEVS.

[gameraxis]

just cause U can't do it doesn't mean it can't be done...
well i know, the ps3 sucks... whatever I'm not here to fan flames, but clearly it got fixed when the sony guy came in... and sometimes when a developer says "were pushing these systems to the max" its just the max that they know how to push it, and not an accurate measurement of the system...

granted, its harder, we all get it, but don't hint that its impossible

PLAY GAMES, DON'T FLAME

[prowiew]

to hellsvacancy:

Thats because all those games you mention probably got help from sony.
Theyre first party.

[SuperM]

Have you ever played GT5 prolouge? ever seen it in action? No? thought so... The only game i have on pc that is comparable to GT5 in graphics is Crysis. Nothing on the 360 can compete with it, period.

Oh and you are absolutely right about one point. The ps3 is a fixed piece of hardware that is not going to improve. Only developers can improve. The same can ofcourse be said about the 360. The only difference is that on the 360 developers are saying they are starting to push the hardware to the limit. On the ps3 developers are saying they are still only using a small part of the potential. Example being Naughty dog who said they only use about a third of the ps3's power in Uncharted which is one of the best looking console games on the market. Im not going to argue about uncharted looking better then all 360 games because i know how fanboys will respond to that, but atleast i can say there is nothing on 360 that is graphically superior to uncharted. Again if thats only a third of what the ps3 can do its no question whos going to have the best looking games in the future.

[mandrake]

First, let's clear up some of the FUD here before it spreads and gains a life of its own.

A basic fact that any seasoned PC Gamer will tell you is that the speed of the RAM is not as important as the total amount of RAM. Check out the test results here:

http://www.extremetech.com/...

For those of you who are too lazy to read, the bottom line is: it is better to have more RAM than faster RAM (if you can't have both). This axiom should be true up to 4 gigabytes.

Second, a more personal note. I read a lot of you kids calling devs "lazy" or "ignorant" and I used to get a huge kick out of emailing quotes from here to the code gnomes downstairs at work. It was funny at first but it's really old now. So take my word for it: you jokers have ABSOLUTELY NO CLUE about what you are talking about. The sad thing is, since this whole console war began, you have had more than enough time to educate yourselves so that you could discuss programming issues more intelligently, but you obviously didn't seize the opportunity. We are already tired of laughing at you, yet you are still as dumb as the day this whole thing started. If anybody has shown themselves to be lazy or ignorant, it's you people. Our devs are some of the most hardworking people I've ever met, and today, Friday, I have the unenviable task of telling a good number of them, one by one, that they are being let go. I'm sick to my stomach to have to do this then come here and read your brainfarts, but unfortunately, that too is part of my job.

Since I'm here already, let's try to clear awat some more crap. The lower memory cap on the PS3 is not the insurmountable bottleneck that some 360 fanboys would have you believe, but the workaround is an absolute b!tch to implement if you are starting from code that was originally written for the 360. And, of course, it is easier to "optimize" (whatever that means) on a system with more RAM than one with less, irrespective of how supposedly freakin fast the cpu is. Which brings up a second point. I can't speak for the other houses, but this whole business about "it's easier to lead on the PS3 then port to the 360 than the other way around" is pure, absolute bunk. "Porting" (if you even understand what that word means) is equally difficult in either direction. Work on the 360 version does tend to get done much more quickly, but I swear, it's not because it is esier to "port" to. Whether we do the 360 version first or last, it always goes gold in less time and with less kicking and screaming than the PS3 version. Make of that what you will.

So there. Have a nice day. Because I sure as hell won't.

[Man_of_the_year]

Well not every developer can take 5+ years to develope a game - and GT5 is only only on 1 console as well so all efforts can be focused on the one console....

your argument is reaching

[SuperM]

Did uncharted take 5 years to develop? nope, neither did GT5 prologue. The only reason GT5 takes long time to develop is all the content that is put into the game. And also that polyphony digital has been involved with other things outside the game while developing. For example designing the user interface of the dashboard on the Nissan GTR.

I think Insomniac is the definitive proof that developing on ps3 doesnt have to be time consuming. 1 game each year for the ps3 + a smaller psn ratchet game. There will always be some games that take longer to make, nomather what system. Need i mention Alan Wake, or perhaps even Too Human?

[solidt12]

Neither the PS3 or 360's ram technology is inferior, just different. The 360's ram design is based on technology that is widely known and the PS3's technology is based on newer architecture. They both work just fine they are just alot different from each other so devs need to know two different architectures well to make one good game now and that is what they are complaining about. If I was a developer I would be excited to learn something new but idunno so people just look at it as a job and a pay check.

[Pain]

didn't they get the memo?

[vidoardes]

Wow Mandrake, I have to congratulate you. You really know how to sound like you know what your talking about, when you quite clearly dont have a single first f***ing clue.

Designing a multi-platform title to work on one system then trying to force that to work on another system is lazy, it is sloppy, but it is cheap (and produces crappy results unless it is poured over for a long time, liek Bioshock or Oblivion). You have to develop the code with all systems in mind or you will always produce crap, because you wanna rush out a port (which is what happens 99% of the time in the games industry).

What does always prove true is that games that start on the PS3 and get ported out produce much better quality than the other way around. Games that are developed concurrently (i.e Burout Paradise) are equally as great on both systems.

The RAM in PS3 is niether inferior nor supirior, just differant, and it would help if 12 year old boys liek yourself would stop pretending like they know differant and telling everyone so

[The Lazy One]

I like how you called him out, then completely agreed with him.

He never said it was worse, he said it was harder to work with. He actually made a point of saying it wasn't worse.

[power of Green]

The devs that are making or made those games you mentioned are talented, what you said doesn't mean those devs could not make a better product on the 360(if there were 360 versions of those titles).

I bet the 360 version will be better despite what they say.(PS3 is inferior)

[Ju]

@LostProphet. Give the man a rest. If what he says is true, he'll have a nightmare day today. And believe me, I know. Been there, done that.

But let me tell you, who are you guys to call these guys out being lazy. WTF.

While I personally think there's more potential in the PS3, I would agree its also more challenging.

The CELL is a monster. Using a massive parallel system is a challenge to debug. If you know what a race condition is then you can up this a bit more if you run multiple independent HW units which are completely autonomous. It is already tricky to do this on a coherent system with multiple cores where you can at least have dev tools to simply set a break points and a debugger allows you to simply stop all threads and cores, but going the extra mile, and doing this with a couple of SPUs is just one level beyond. I couldn't do it, but I also don't have the right tools. I could only use a best guess approach, which is simply not good enough if you want to push the envelope.

Most people will get a brain freeze when there are more then 3 threads running and something goes wrong. Its not their fault, this technology is simply extreme challenging. No degree in the world will help you there. I remember the days I had trouble to memorize a 6502, something which would read like a table of contents compared to a 1000 pages book the current tech is. People didn't turn out to be super humans just because the book got bigger. Its unlike more challenging.

So, please, don't call them lazy. There are different ways to approach the problems, exclusives are one way, but if you support more then one platform, there must be a common denominator in your design. Not an easy task.

[c-redz]

cry me a river!!!! other people work just as hard and have to fire people as well. Welcome to the Sh**y economy! But make the game good and your job gets better and brighter simple, so if they port crap well they get crap!!!!! Simple each system can make a great game, so do it work and shut up. the proof is in the pudding!!!!!

[power of Green]

GT5-P(PS3)
http://www.1up.com/media/03...
vs
Ferrari project(360)
http://www.autogaming.net/c...

GT5-P(PS3)
http://www.1up.com/media/03...
vs
Ferrari Project(360)
http://www.autogaming.net/c...

"Hi all, I went to Blimey yesterday and met Ian , nice guy and free drinks! Ian made me sign an NDA so I can’t go into any details… but I tried the Ferrari game, all i can say is Holy moly, the gfx are better than Gran turismo, the lighting was spot on, the real time reflections on the car were amazing, the general effects are just a new level"
http://www.autogaming.net/x...

The 360 hardare is pulling off much more effects and physics all at once.

[Ju]

@PoG, did you just want to underline the lower polycount in Ferrari Project or what's your intention here ? (take very close look at all the round edges, pleeeassse).

[vdesai]

They are not lazy they just are unfamiliar with the base (architecture is not the correct word for this article) of the PS3. The way to work with smaller amounts of high speed ram is to send your data to the processor clear the cache and send new data and this can be done in an instant of time which is not noticeable. This is why the XDR ram was used it makes multi-threading much simpler because its basically a number crunching monster, first the ram is loaded with "stuff" then the "stuff" is sent through the system bus to the processor or the GPU but since the ram for the GPU is completely dedicated there is not need to worry about that so we worry about splitting the data up now into separate threads, this par of the system should always be in the ram, you can't just talk about hardware because you need to talk about software correctly I think they kept objects that are redundant in the ram while the game was on, this is good programing the conventional way but not the way if you want to conserve memory. Devs also have a hard time grasping multi-threading because it takes allot of work to manage each thread, I believe the amount of work increases exponentially per cor o/ cpu. That is why the Xbox is a much more conventional machine because it only has 3 cores and the PS3 has 7 dedicated to gaming. This is why it is much smarter to get a 3.0GHz processor right now over a 1.5GHz dual core.

[cherrypie]

"The GPU in the PS3 is comparable in speed to the 360's GPU"

It is well accepted that the Xbox 360 GPU is superior to the PS3s.

And, the Cell is only superior if a dev takes *a lot* of time and effort to write code to take advantage of it.

That *time and effort* costs money.

[vdesai]

How so could you tell me why its thought to be superior.

[SkyGamer]

You have remember that the rsx in the ps3 is essentially a stripped down 7800 sli with 256mb of memory. The graphics uses the old architecture where as the Xenos uses UNIFIED SHADERS and has 10MB embedded eDRAM. Plus the cell cpu is a REALLY fast SINGLE CORE processor but lacks the three INDIVIDUAL cores plus DUAL THREAD that the X360 has.

X360 is more like a PC so when a dev devs a game for pc, X360, there are similar and easier to code for. Now you throw in the ps3 which uses a different method of programming and they almost have to reinvent the wheel to get the game on the ps3. So in a devs mind, you have two similar markets with higher userbase, all of your games will be based around that and sloppy seconds for whatever else. Like last gen when ps2 dominated, the devs put that first and all else had sloppy seconds. That is why it was hard to distinguish any differences from multi-plat games and sometimes the ps2 looking better.

Now you have games that were meant for ps3 only and not even pc, the devs can focus all their manpower in learning that curve and hence you have games like MGS4, (even if it did take an ungodly amount of time, resources and money to make that game).

[vdesai]

No the cell is not a really fast single core, it has more then twice as many cores as the 360 your off your rocker.

[Lord Xire]

The Cell only has one General Purpose Core while the 360 has 3.

That's what I think he was trying to point out.

There also Multi Threaded.

Those SPE's in the Cell are so hyped and overestimated.

[Software_Lover]

at 1.19 SuperM

I absolutely hate it with a passion when devs state that they aren't using the full POWER of a system. And that comment you made just made me angry. Not with you of course.

1/3 the power of the ps3? If they know they are only using 1/3 the power then they know how much the full potential is. People eat this crap up. Same with the 360. We aren't touching the full capabilities. Who gives a crap. Just make a good game and no one will care if the console is MAXED OUT or not.

And do any of you actually know what maxed out mean? Graphics? Coding? Processor scheduling? No you nor do I know. That's just a bunch of BS devs use to make the hardware manufacturers (Microsoft/Sony) look good. And to appease the fanboys.

[Be Reasonable]

Jesus guys, for the last time, Dead Space wasn't lead on PS3. It never was. It was ported over to the PS3 a little more than 6 months ago, and they made sure that it was up to par with the 360 version which was lead.

http://www.videogamer.com/n...

To people wondering why Volition needed help with the memory usage is because there's A LOT going on the on the screen and in the machine. There's explosions, enemies, gunfire, and everything is destructible and it uses a real time structural calculation system. It's hard on the CPU and memory.

[thewhoopimen]

Nice try POG with your ferrari project. Except when you look at pics like this: http://www.autogaming.net/c...
And see angles on the wheels b/c of low polycount you pretty much throw much of your credibility (along with the blogger's) into the dumbass bin.

Oh ya... the carbon fibre on the ferrari project is laughably unrealistic looking.

This is realistic: http://www.wonderwallweb.co...

Look at this carbon fiber ferrari: http://ferrarituning.files....
The trim on the bottom.

[Omegasyde]

Volition says that the PS3 can push better graphics earlier this year:

Proof:
http://www.digitalbattle.co...

Also we go through this same stupid argument every MONTH. PS3 and 360 have the same amount of memory. The 360 ram isn't split, the PS3 is. Both systems can utilize all available RAM for processing graphics minus the OS usage (Xbox Bar and XMB). The only plus to the PS3 is that the Cell can render graphics. Look at Example:

http://www.gametrailers.com...

Also these guys are rookies, and haven't had a great game since the original red faction. Let alone Saints Row 1 and 2 weren't pushing graphics or anything gameplay wise either. Thier publisher is THQ which is one of the worse. They love shovel ware too.

Hezeus H. Christy. See you guys at the end of November when the same topic pops back up for the 3523532532 time. Maybe N4g can mix it up with which console has the better HDD, controller, contrast option, audio channels, etc......

[cherrypie]

1.41 - @POG
Nice try POG with your ferrari project. Except when you look at pics like this: http://www.autogaming.net/c...

It looks *fantastic*, where I'll invite you to notice the carbon fiber is not being front-lit; the rear of that car is in low-light.

"And see angles on the wheels b/c of low polycount you pretty much throw much of your credibility (along with the blogger's) into the dumbass bin."

Are you blind? Are you really trying to suggest that their is "low poly count" on the wheels of that pic?

Then, as evidence of GT5's superior poly-count, you show this:

"This is realistic: http://www.wonderwallweb.co...

Can you *see*? Look at that (front-left tyre (nearest)) mechanic's flame-suit, around his shoulders, then, look at the helmet on the farthest (front-right tyre) mechanic! What were you saying about "low polycount"?

Further, that particular GT5 shot is in the menu-system; often the autos are pre-rendered in such locations. The *mechanics* look ridiculously bad. Are you *blind*?

Also, I'll have you note that the carbon-fiber in *that* shot is being lit from the front, directly.

"Look at this carbon fiber ferrari: http://ferrarituning.files....
The trim on the bottom."

That is a *photo* of a Ferarri with CF trim; from neither game - what is your PONIT?

Wow, has your zealotry-sickness made you blind?

[jaysquared]

No matter how you Sony fans look at it the PS3 this gen was like the Xbox last gen. Even though the Xbox was more powerfull than the PS2 third party devs didn't take full advantage of it. What was the point when they knew the PS2 was their moneymaker. Same thing this gen but this time opposite. The PS3 is more powerful and has better potential than the 360 but the fact the 360 has a larger install base mostly made up of GAMERS then whats the point of taking full advantage of the PS3s powers when they know they are going to sell twice as many games on the 360. Face the facts Sony fans! Whats even more sad is the games that was suppose to show the power of the PS3, which are the first party games & exclusives, are not leaps and bounds over 360 games. Sad truth if you bought into the hype by Sony!

[karlostomy]

That's not quite correct.

Undoubtedly the xbox1 was more powerful than the ps2.

But what you neglect to mention is the fact that ALL the multiplats were better on the xbox1 than the ps2.

There was no excuses, no blaming developers, no waiting and waiting.
There was just better results on the xbox.

That is why the xbox is said to be more powerful than the ps2.

Contrast this to the current gen.
The ps3 can't match the 360, yet everyone refuses to believe Sony's superiority hype.

It just don't add up.

[INehalemEXI]

Just to clarify the misconceptions I read up there.

360/Xenon has 3 multi thread cores/PPE's= 6 hardware threads

PS3/Cell BE has 1 multi thread core/PPE + 7 available SPE's= 9 hardware threads

___

RSX clocks @ 550 MHZ

Xenos clocks @ 500 MHZ

the Xenos has the onboard edram dedicated to AA

____

PS3 RAM is in 2 chunks of 256 MB one of these is XDR clocked @ 3.2 ghz it is the fastest memory in a console the cell only has access to 1 chunk RSX has access to both which is 2x 256=512.

360 has unified 512 MB RAM. The issue of split RAM vs Unified has pros and cons.

Ultimately PS3 Mobo has the largest/fastest bandwidth. The system has a significant advantage in terms of Floating point calculations per second as well.

DVD x12 speed is faster then 2x blu ray half of the time it reads at the same speed then it reads faster as it goes to the mid-outer parts of the disc. Blu ray reads at the same speed anywhere on the disc, however blu ray has 5 times the capacity.

I would not call the devs lazy they are just not fully educated on PS3 programming yet. Time = Money and every game has a budget so if it takes them extra time to code for PS3 thats going to cause issues.

The PS3 is a beast if the programming is taking advantage of its resources. If its programmed for like its a traditional chipset then it may end up looking inferior. As quite a few multi-plats have shown.

Trust me I own both machines and there is no 360 game that rivals PS3's exclusives. 360 has hit a graphical plateau ....wheather this is due to its guts or a lack of unique engines driving its games im unsure. UE3 is overused especially on 360 thats one thing Im sure on.

[thewhoopimen]

Yes cherrypie, Why don't we take another look at that exact same wheels. Please look at the wheel on the right and don't tell me you can't see polygonal angles. Now lets take a look at GT5 Prologue wheels.
http://img510.imageshack.us...

Do tell me how much angle you see in that pic. And then tell me the difference in detail between just tires.

Now tell me again who is delusional.

And if you guys still think the Ferrari's carbon fibre looks realistic, I invite you to think again.

[hfaze]

You're talking about two RADICALLY different architectures. The 360 is more like a PC in how you develop for it, and the PS3 is more like a vector processing supercomputer.

Both architectures have their pluses and minuses. Although the 360 CURRENTLY has the ease-of-programming factor going for it, the PS3 architecture has more staying power with its higher-end CPU and RAM.

As the PS3 SDK evolves, it will become far more easy to develop for (just take a look at the PS2 and how developers were saying it was difficult to code for at first... Now pretty much any studio can crank out PS2 games in no-time flat).

Although Volition is currently complaining about the PS3's memory allocation, it just means that they are not used to architecture yet. Even though they ran into some issues and had to hire some Sony developers to get it done, they achieved what they were after.

Not to mention, look at the source... Official XBox Magazine (UK), 'nuff said. ;-)

[Hellsvacancy]

360 lovers will love this article

[theKiller]

they will do.

but i say its good that they r suffering because nothing comes easy, if they didnt suffer then the game will suck or that they have a genius team like insomniac

[Sir_Ken_Kutaragi]

Members that have given this story their approval.
green (2) - 27m ago
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:-/

More like -
Volition: We struggled with the xBox 360's Red Faction, because it uses Last-Gen Technology. We wanted to do so much more. So we had to make it look average on both Consoles because of the xBox 360!!! ;-D
(That should wind-up the xBot RATS on this!!!) ;)

[sunnygrg]

I thought pp and mart would be there to approve this article too.

On topic, what kind of game is Red faction? Sorry for the ignorance but I am too busy with LBP right now to care about the world.

[ultimolu]

They sure do.

Once again they get teh superioooorz copy!11111

Developers need to make the PS3 the leader development so there's no problem between both platforms! If developers like Insomniac and Guerrilla could make games THIS amazingly well, then obviously they're doing something right!

That way we can play games, be happy, and not have a pissing contest over graphics. It has nothing to do with the damn console war.

Even better, they can ask Sony developers for help understanding the development!

Good grief, if they're gonna f*ck up on this game, they might as well make it a 360 exclusive and not give PS3 owners a sh*tty ass port.

[Yoma]

Wait.. I can't belive this.. Guerilla? Look at kZ2 and they have problem with the ps3 version now? :o

[Sir_Ken_Kutaragi]

'Red Faction: Guerrilla Games are 100% better than our games'!!! ;-D

'Red Faction 1 + 2' are FPS. Think this one isn't tho.
'Red Faction 2' was good tho. You could rename the Multi-player Bots in that game...Hmm...i got a few xBots names on this i could change the game Bots names to!!! Killing Spree!!! ;-D

[SSCOOLCHEA]

for one think the devs are idiots to be saying this . For one it makes them look like they have no clue to make games . If the ps3 first party games are solid why are they so stupid . hey dumbazz call naughty and insomniac they should give you some tips .

ps.... thats why i dont buy multiplat games . it has to be exclusive to the ps3 or a first party game for me to pick it up . anything multi gets dumb down .

[ravinshield]

this aint nothing new, we already know the ps3 is heavy garbage

[Kain81]

^^

[yoghurt]

poor developers, less memory - that's such an old excuse, they both have the same its just laid out differently, and ps3 has all the spu processes to handle some of the work. Just need to get to grips with it don't they

[xwabbit]

If people would actually read the specs on the 3 consoles you would know ps3 is the one with most ram LOL but people are so retarded and developers dont even know the systems they are working on rofl ? wow developers are amazing sometimes.

[Bzone24]

What I find funny is that people like you seem to think they know so much more than the developers that actually make games for these consoles. rofl Wow, fanboys are amazing sometimes.

[xwabbit]

ps3 ram
256MB XDR Main RAM @3.2GHz -CPU
256MB GDDR3 VRAM @700MHz-GPU

xbox360
512 MB GDDR3 RAM @ 700 MHz DDR (SHARED)
Unified architecture

What do you notice?
ps3 256 mb ram CPU ram operates at 3.2 GHz.
360's 512mb shared ram operates at 700 MHz.

-This is an example of how ps3 creates more with little. Clearly the ps3's 256mb CPU Ram operates way faster than the xbox360
.Even if 360's Ram in unified.

Ps3 CPU ram beats xbox360's CPU ram. The better ram, the faster, and better performance. Ps3 will be faster, and have better performance than the 360.

xbox360 shares its ram.
This slows down 360's CPU. Like intergrated G-cards do with Computers. Intergrated G-cards share the computers ram, i know i have one.

[cherrypie]

@INANE:

For those who *dont* know, this will help you understand how 512MB != 512MB:

http://ozymandias.com/archi...

The answer? When all 512MB isnt available to the game because yMB is being comsumed by the OS *AND IS NOT AVAILABLE FOR THE GAME*.

That yMB on the PS3 is MUCH greater than on the Xbox 360. So, while both have "512MB", the Xbox 360 has more available to the game programmer.

"a total of 96MB is reserved for the system on PS3....9MB is required for friends lists (and 60MB for in-game commerce!). If those numbers are correct, a PS3 title using friends lists functionality has 512-96-9 = 407MB available, 73MB less than an Xbox 360 title using the same features."

Get it?

[Zeevious]

There are few things I find more annoying than someone wasting EVERYONES time with old...outdated...un-researched 'Fact-like' information.

Thanks so much for those PRE-RELEASE 2006 OS v0.87 specs...They're so 'Fact-ish' I'm certain any CURRENT developer would be substantially awed at the minimal & 360-PS3 comparable amount of memory the CURRENT OS uses...the 2.5x one used today.

What exactly is with you Cult of the Console members intentionally overlooking current facts while distorting and using long-outdated, 360 or PS3 'facts' ?

Have you heard about this little thing called 'kom-pi-tish-uhn' and how this brand-new 2008 innovation is good for EVERY GAMER?

WHAT THIS MEANS...
If you DIDN'T know your April 2006 PRE-RELEASE 1.0 Firmware memory requirements have nothing to do with current OS memory your ignorance invalidates you as a credible source.

If you DID know your April 2006 'Facts' have NOTHING to do with current OS memory your intentions invalidate you as a credible source.

Either way, thanks for this Console Cult Edition of:

"I Can't Believe It's Not Facts" *

* Made with real facts . . . Just a touch.

.

Get it?

[yoghurt]

and "pushing the ps3 and 360 to the limits" no, its more like "pushing our development skills to the limits". We all know that the ps3 (and 360?) are no where near their limits

[Darkseider]

Holy crap! Someone else see's the light! You sir get a bubble for stating the truth. Yes it has indeed pushed their developement skills to the limit. Unfortunately that limit as exhibited by this article is short is a very low bar and they need help in the "how to" dept.

[Man_of_the_year]

But we haven't seen the game yet...so how do you know that they're not pushing the systems to their limits...you 2 guys are just speculating that they are not pushing the systems to their limits...

[Ren]

Like ejacu......i mean speculating.

[Hellsvacancy]

Where in my comment did i type the word "Lie" now i rememeber y i put u on my ignore list

[Jamegohanssj5]

James: I struggled to buy this game. Then I just stopped and didn't buy it at all.

TGSI

[xaviertooth]

so when sony helped them, they added more memory on the console? or they don't have the skills to do it?

@Hellsvacancy: sure they do, because they love incompetent developers.

[Capt CHAOS]

But they do this for a living, If they can spend 100 man days on a game on the 360 and sell 1 million copies, why spend 140 man days on a PS3 title to sell 500k copies?

[na2ru1]

lol.

[Rob0g0rilla]

Yeah right. The graphics are terrible. I was in the 360 beta and they weren't impressive at all for a game that pushes the system to the limit. I'll be surprised if this game gets above an 80%. The jet pack was cool and so was the hammer, but this game's online and graphics are total crap that's doing a terrible job pushing the system to it's limit.
I might buy it when it's 10 bucks at gamestop for the single player if it's any good.

[smothtiger]

I think it has to do with so much of the environment were destructible. Almost everything were calculating in real time how to be blown to bits.

[MiloGarret]

Say what!?! I thought the Beta was awesome, me and my girlfriend who also played, together with some buddies of mine can't wait for this game to come out.

[Hellsvacancy]

"So when sony helped them, they added more memory on the console? or they don't have the skills to do it"

Lol Fantastic - bubbles

Same to u Killer

[InMyOpinion]

If someone gave Volition 50 million dollars and 3 more years of development time they might get it on par with the 360 version.

[Hellsvacancy]

I undersatnd things a little (and i mean little) bit better now

Thanks for sharing

[thor]

You're welcome.

It's just that there's so much criticism flying about surrounding the PS3's blu-ray drive and graphics card that people don't realise the main reasons for the problems are the lack of memory and the fact that the cell is NOT a 6-core processor - it's a 1-core processor with some SPEs that effectively need programming as you go.

[thereapersson]

But just for everyone else:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wik...

Note that the relationship between cores and threads is a common source of confusion. The PPE core is dual threaded and manifests in software as two independent threads of execution while each active SPE manifests as a single thread. In the PlayStation 3 configuration as described by Sony, the Cell processor provides nine independent threads of execution.

[BURLY]

The 360’s operating system only uses 3% CPU time on Core1 and Core2, whereas nothing is reserved on Core0. The 360 has 3 "true" cores as defined by most sources - in that each core has it's own accessible memory cache in which to draw from. Each of these cores is called a dual-core CPU in that each core has 2 processors that (unlike most "dual-core" CPU's found in PC's at that time) can calculate threads of instructions simultaneously.

The Cell CPU in the PS3 is considered by most to be a single core CPU with 8 processors because it shares all of its memory across the board. At E3 in 2005, Sony officially unveiled the PS3 and claimed that their Cell processor would be capable of 200 GFLOPS. The "Cell" processor was co-developed with IBM and the following link is IBM's own unbiased test results (also known as IBM’s "white paper's"):

http://www-128.ibm.com/deve...

...Based on IBM's own white papers; it is easy to verify that the Cell processor does indeed have a theoretical peak of 201 GFLOP’s (Figure 5) – running 8 SPE’s at 25.12 GFLOP’s apiece (Table 2). However when physically tested: only 155.5 GFLOP’s were actually achieved (Table 4) with a total efficiency rate of 75.9% (Table 4).

Of course this didn't stop Sony from sticking to the theoretical figure, when comparing the Cell to the 360's proven and actual CPU benchmarks ...but that's only half the story...

...Since the PS3 will only use 7 SPE’s due to manufacturing yield issues, the theoretical peak for the PS3’s processor will be 176 GFLOP’s, at 25.12 GFLOP’s apiece and assuming the same 75.9% efficiency, we could easily interpolate the PS3’s Cell to be capable of 133.6 GFLOP’s.

Let's keep going, shall we?

...The PS3 constantly reserves 1 SPE for running its operating system. Removing this SPE from the equation, we could easily interpolate that the PS3’s Cell is only capable of 114.4 GFLOP’s for in-game purposes!

Adjusting the 360's proven 115.2 GFLOP's to account for the minuscule amount that is used by the operating system still wouldn't diminish the fact that Sony severely overstated the relative power of the Cell processor in an attempt to get their legion of loyal fans to "Buy-in" to the notion that it would be worth the wait while they could ready their Bluray Trojan horse.

Furthermore, a GFLOP's comparison is also playing into Sony's court because although it is a measure that still holds well for comparing pre-fixed computations involving physics, etc, ...it is really as useful as the “bit” (there’s a throw back for ya) when it comes to the important tasks now performed by the CPU in next-gen games. Thus, in the general purpose departments the Cell will not fare as well as the CPU in the 360 because there is simply more memory for each “true” core to act as an independent and flexible mediator. Hence we have seen comments like Ubisoft’s (i.e. Assassin’s Creed and Splinter Cell teams, etc.) that the 360’s CPU is superior in the A.I. department ...etc, etc.

Any ways I have been somewhat itching to go into an INSANE amount of detail but that would just make me INSANE and is also the reason why I very rarely comment, ...I could see that you were trying though (like I am) and sometimes that’s what it takes to get me to come out. PS: We are all learning here so always best not to take things to personally - I find. Peace out y’all.

[Common Sense]

90 nm process[2], 65 nm process upgrade in 2007[3] (codenamed "Falcon"), possible 45 nm process dated around 2008.[4]
165 million transistors
Three symmetrical cores, each two way SMT-capable and clocked at 3.2 GHz[2]
SIMD: VMX128 with 2× (128×128 bit) register files for each core.[2]
1 MiB L2 cache[2] (lockable by the GPU) running at half-speed (1.6 GHz) with a 256-bit bus
51.2 gigabytes per second of L2 memory bandwidth (256 bit × 1600 MHz)
21.6 GB/s Front-Side Bus[2]
Dot product performance: 9.6 billion per second
115.2 GFLOPS THEORETICAL peak performance
Restricted to In-order code execution[2]
ROM storing Microsoft's Secure Bootloader
Big endian architecture.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wik...

Theoretical output for the PS3 is 201 GFLOPs
Theoretical output for the Xenon is 115.6GFLOPS

Neither is going to reach theoretical performance.

So don't give me that bull crap. Even Microsoft won't say the Xenon is more powerful because they know it's not. IBM designed both and the Cell is IBM's baby. That's why they use it for their most powerful supercomputer, Roadrunner.

[BURLY]

Actually, you are incorrect in saying that: “Microsoft won't say the Xenon is more powerful because they know it's not” because in 2005 (shortly after Sony’s E3 press conference and the announcement of their over-bloated specs on the Cell processor) they issued the following press release:

http://xbox360.ign.com/arti...

In this press release Microsoft essentially illustrates the fact that game development is 80% integer calculations and only 20% GFLOP, or floating point calculations and as such they PURPOSELY decided to go with a CPU that was 3x more powerful than the Cell with respect to integer calculations and accordingly examined why GFLOP’s is an extremely poor measure of next-gen CPU performance.

Furthermore, when we are talking about “theoretical peak performance” numbers between the Cell and the Xenon CPU’s one must take into account that the Xenon’s “theoretical peak performance” numbers were based on actual testing of far more proven technology and as such is semantically more akin to the actual test efficiency numbers of the Cell processor in IBM’s white pages:

http://www-128.ibm.com/deve...

Thus, the “theoretical peak performance” of the Cell as marketed to you by Sony is far more semantically akin to PIE IN THE SKY because unlike the Xenon “peak theoretical performance” numbers they were based on UNTESTED efficiency rates and basic design notes. Thus, although your very general analysis that all CPU’s will function within its “peak performance” parameters is correct, one of your figures is essentially an apple and the other one is an orange! This is why I specifically noted that the 360’s GFLOP performance was “proven” because relatively speaking it represented numbers more in-line with the adjusted efficiency numbers in IBM’s white pages than it does to the PIE IN THE SKY that the hardcore and indoctrinated Sony fanboys always seems to be orbiting.

Furthermore, Microsoft has also defended this reality in multiple interviews and the key thing here to understand why Microsoft wasn’t as pronounced in proclaiming the virtues of the Xenon CPU was because they had the First Mover Advantage and as such they didn’t have to use (what is referred to in marketing) as “Buy-in Theory” in order to convince people to hold off and wait to buy a more expensive piece of hardware further down the line – like Sony did. I’d go into more detail here about the Cell and why developers are not lazy but rather as to why the Cell processor was an awful choice for a CPU in a gaming console. I mean it is a floating point, streaming media monster and that is good for what? ...Playing Bluray movies?

...Unfortunately though I have got to go to work now but I’ll check in later. Until then don’t believe everything you hear in wiki-land because it will never give you the whole story – just the sound bites!

[Darkseider]

No matter how much you would like to propose that the processor in the XBox is superior you my friend are wrong. The Cell Broadband Engine from a performance standpoint is hands down more powerful than any processor currently available on the market today, PERIOD. Whether it is the XBox 360, AMD's or Intel's biggest or baddest. Hence the reason it is being used to do research grade simulations at MIT "Project Gravity Well" which is 16x PS3s networked as a cluster and doing blackhole simulations.

As a matter of fact the architecture of the Cell/PS3 is so impressive MIT actually has a course on programming it and utilizing the Cell. So please I beg of you try not to compare any other processor out there to the Cell, PowerXCell 8i or the upcoming Cell 2. It is the most exciting advancement in processor technology since the DEC Alpha from the early 90s.

[Lord Xire]

Darkseider....

Too bad we only care about games.

As Burly was pointing out..that for Video Games...the Cell is not the best processor and the Xenos is stronger.

many people including my professor have said that the Ps3 specs only look good on paper.

[cherrypie]

"it's a 1-core processor with some SPEs that effectively need programming as you go."

...not to mention that up to 2.5 of the SPEs are unavailable to the game; reserved by the OS...

oh, nevermind. yes, the PS3 is a supercomptuer from the future... just like sony PR says...

[cherrypie]

"the Cell and why developers are not lazy but rather as to why the Cell processor was an awful choice for a CPU in a gaming console"

Perhaps you'd like to comment on Sony's reason for splitting the memory?

I have read, and would accept as reality, that splitting the memory was for security during BluRay movie play-back.

During bluray playback, the CPU is unable to access the GPU memory, preventing piracy.

So, the PS3's design decisions were driven by Sony's MPAA priorities.

For those who dont remember;

"If the RIAA doesn't zap Napster, Sony certainly will.

"The [music] industry will take whatever steps it needs to protect itself and protect its revenue streams," Heckler said. "It will not lose that revenue stream, no matter what."

Fair enough, you might think. That is after all the reason behind the RIAA's legal action against Napster, though it's nice to have an industry executive admit that the case is about control of "revenue streams". Sony Pictures Entertainment operates alongside Sony Music Entertainment, an RIAA member.

"Sony is going to take aggressive steps to stop this. We will develop technology that transcends the individual user. We will firewall Napster at source - we will block it at your cable company, we will block it at your phone company, we will block it at your [ISP]. We will firewall it at your PC.

"These strategies," Heckler told conference attendees, "are being aggressively pursued because there is simply too much at stake."

Particularly for Sony, which is aggressive basing its digital content strategy around the ability to sell music and movies into the home via broadband Net connections and (ideally) PlayStation 2 consoles."

http://www.theregister.co.u...

[TheColbertinator]

Thank God Volition remembered this game.With Saints Row 2 out of the way,I might enjoy this

[SL1M DADDY]

Is this game suposed to be awesome? Sure the first two were good but they were nothing to write home about. This has been a rental on my list since it was announced but surely not worth the price of 60 bucks.

[felidae]

what's up with the devs these days?

Red Faction should perform good on all systems!

damn!

[Fishy Fingers]

Well as long as Sony stepped up and provided some assistance there shouldn't be an issue, which I'm sure they did as they're often happy to lend a helping hand to a developer.

Just send over a guy from Guerrilla Games technical team. Try telling him split memory is a problem.

[byeGollum]

they did - & sony came to the rescue - moving along

[h41544]

why the article is in xbox site not a ps3 site (its a ps3 problem )?

[thereapersson]

Because the game is multiplatform

[h41544]

just to make xbox fans happy

[pornflakes]

of course for ps3 owners this devs are lazy, like 90% of the other ones.

LBP 160k in first week USA... haha

Good that dead Space didnt beat it.

This game wont save you guys.

[dale1]

whats with the 160k for lbp in the first week all about, didn,t know npd reported to you first

[pornflakes]

fool man, even if NPD will report 50% more than vgchartz it still would be ONLY CRAPY 220k!

Hell man, GoW2 will sell 1 Million on first day.

LBP is a fail for all Sony Fans. Now we wait for the next excuses of the Sony midgets. Cant wait for Japan sales like 20k for only 1 week, LOL.

Sony already lost this console war. No UBBER graphics.. i mean KX2 with 4 years in dev.. hum.. this game should be 2 times better than COD4 not only a little bit better. Its not the power sony promised us!

[harpua]

lol, do you really think people expect an objective comment from you at this point? your opinion of been diluted to nothing.

[dale1]

vg chartz ha ha ha ha ha ha ha rofl vg chartz

[pixelsword]

The PS3's strength isn't in it's memory like most computers, but it's parallel processing: if properly used, you can make a very high-resolution game with huge levels: the best examples would be GT5, Lair, Heavenly Sword, Uncharted, and if you got the chance to play the Betas, Killzone 2 and Resistance 2.

I don't see how a company like Violation "can't get it" while a previously perceived "two-pump chump" of a company like Ninja Theory made one of the most technically impressive games for the PS3 in 2007.

Well, maybe I can see how: for the most part, you can throw away a lot of programming staples and the PS3 is basically a free-for-all; the ones who "get it" first will make the better games. Length in the industry is irrelevant.

If you want an easy in to the games industry, a small, but efficient PS3 game would be your best bet.

[Bathyj]

Keep in mind this is only their first gen game. Devs like Ubi and EA had problems at the start.

I said over a year ago, you can either get help now and reap the benifits later, or pretend the problem will go away and do nothing, and then you will forever be playing catch up to the devs that did there homework at the start like Insominac.

Think of it like driving. You can break early into a corner, take it smoothly and then be the first to get back up to top speed, or you can break late, take the corner out of control and you will leave the corner slowly and be last up to top speed.

These devs arent lazy, there just trying to do the work now, that they should have done in the start. Iyts not like Sony hasn't extended their help to everyone.

[Lucreto]

Is it just me or is it just PC developers that are having trouble with the PS3. It you are a console developer they have little trouble with the PS3. Look at Uncharted, Killzone 2 and Resistance 2.

PC development is easier as you can throw Ram at it and spread it around. The 360 is the same. But the PS3 is more of a obsessive compulsive. Everything needs its own place filed correctly and more efficiently.

edit: If you are disagreeing with me where is the counter argument?

[Dante43]

Lol now we know that , that magazine is Xbox fanboys, LOL

[Michael Jackson]

Fixed. :)

[dolomite]

meh

[Mr_Luke]

Really hope that next Playstation will get a lot of memory, so programmers stop using that as an excuse.
Tbh i'm playing so many wonderful titles (beta and not) that i'm wondering to myself: how those ppl made so great thing with "so little" memory?
Then i found the answer: they managed to program on a PS3, others can't. Good Sony helped them, but i fear this version of RF will be inferior again... hope not

[BrianC6234]

The PS2 was limited on memory too but everyone learned how to work with it. The PS3 has as much memory as the 360 it's just used differently. You don't develop games the same way for both consoles. That's the secret. It's a well known fact now that if you make the game for the PS3 it's very easy to port to the 360 but not the other way around. I don't think Sony can put enough memory in their consoles to make some people happy though. Consoles are always limited on RAM. The only reason you don't hear this problem with the 360 is it's like PC games right now but the 360 has its own problems.

[Raoh]

simple. devs have a working code. they dont want to recode.

its not the lack of memory. its the devs unwillingness to reroute memory usage.

technically running each process through separate spu's gives higher performance. but that may require, recoding/learning curve/reaching out to other developers/time/a bigger first time budget/extension of deadline on first trial run.

it can be done and has been done.

its the same as the way kojima explained how to reduce load times. the blu ray is large. use it. copy data all over the blu ray when space is available. this cuts down on seek/read time.

[xfrgtr]

There has been a lot of talk about the Playstation 3’s Random Access Memory (RAM) vs Xbox 360’s RAM, saying that the 360 has more RAM to work with etc.
Just so you know that the PS3 has 512MB of RAM (256 for video and 256 for system). The Cell chip has 256MB of completely sharable RAM, the GPU has 256MB of dedicated RAM. Now the key here is what type of RAM it is.

The Playstation 3 has 256mb of GDDR3 at 700mhz and 256Mb of XDR at 3.2ghz. So what exactly is XDR ram? Here are some of the highlights:

* XDR makes PS3 super effiecient
* XDR aids in faster cache mapping, both direct and indirect
* XDR ram works by a pointer to pointer technology and needs very small buswidth for execution
* XDR is not just faster than GDDR3 but it is much more efficient
* XDR RAM works by breaking down data into several packets which prevents data loss and exceptions

"The Rambus XDR™ memory architecture is a total memory system solution that achieves an order of magnitude higher performance than today’s standard memories while utilizing the fewest ICs. Perfect for compute and consumer electronics applications"

The PS3 has two times as much cache at 2x the speed, making it way faster for direct/indirect mapping. Not only that but it has 512k of L1 cache + 1.7m of L2 cache for the 7 spes. The PS3’s GPU, RSX was made to work with the Cell processor, it is not some GPU they took and slotted in. It is made to be compatible with the Cell.

More RAM does not mean a faster system it means more data can be stored in a fast access area. Games don’t always need 512mb of RAM.

The RSX can freely use as much of the 512MB total RAM that the PS3 has because the Cell doesn’t need much RAM because its fast enough. And the fact that the PS3 has XDR means that it has faster access to data files.

A lot of people are saying that the RSX only has 256mb of RAM, whereas the 360’s GPU has 512MB of RAM. To make it sound a bit simpler, here’s the real deal. The PS3 has it’s RAM in two separate parts, 256MB for the RSX and 256MB that can be used be either the Cell or RSX.

[SaberEdge]

Yes, Cell has 256MB of XDR, but what you aren't telling people is that there is a speed penalty (i.e. latency) if RSX tries to access that. The unified memory architecture of the 360 is superior because both the CPU or GPU has full access to the memory without any speed penalties. Not to mention that the 360 functionally has more memory to work with since the operating system has a much smaller memory footprint.

[lowcarb]

This is interesting stuff to read this morning and a message that somebody really made some bad decisions with there console design early on. The real question is or at least for me is that I wonder just how much better KZ2, uncharted, and Mgs4 would have looked if they were made for 360 and given a ton of development time? We will never know of course which is ashame but they would more then likely of looked much better on 360 since it's not as limited as the PS3. Alan Wake might just be the game to show off what 360 can do given time and resources.

[DA_SHREDDER]

The real question is, Why did Too Human and every other game on the 360 that took 4 or more years to make not look as good as any of the games mentioned above? Also,, why are the best looking games on the 360 all multi platform?

[Funky Town_TX]

every system has it's pros and cons. I come down to this. I dev A makes great games then it does not matter what system it's on. Most of the great GFX producers made great GFX on xbox and PS2 and this gen will be no dif. Both consoles will have ups and downs from dif dev/pub.

[zonetrooper5]

Find it funny that people are calling devs lazy, its thier first game for the 360 and PS3. All the first party games that people have mentioned will have alot of money thrown at them and they will be given quite a long time to develop. On the other hand, a third party company does not have that much time say 4 years or so and that much money to develop for alot of platforms.

If you want to see the power of either the 360 or PS3 then look at the first party developers who will have the money and time to make a great looking game but not always will a good looking game have great gameplay.

[Pixel_Addict]

I mean this article is on an official Xbox mouthpiece. BOTH the PS3 and 360 have 512 MB of ram. The only difference between the two is that the PS3 divides up the memory between the GPU/CPU. Even so, the divided memory issue has been address, because you can bridge the extra memory if needed, something that those Sony engineers know and seemingly Volition is too incapable to research.

[Jeremy Gerard]

you really think you know better than developers who have millions on the line? Do you really think they just happened to not research before they committed money and time and even spent more money to hire Sony help?

Seriously just stop, the memory PS3 has cannot be used for the same things that 360 has, everyone knows PS3 has less of the useful memory. Stop listening to Sony and listen to the multiple development houses that say the PS3 sucks for running game code!

[Jeremy Gerard]

system should not be so hard to code for, PS3 is NOT more powerful, and anyone who believes it is, well your just gullible. You bought all the crap Sony marketing sold you.

PS3 has less memory folks and were it not for 360 forcing devs to a higher standard we would all be stuck with what PS3 is capable of instead of what 360 is capable of. Everyone tries to brings games on PS3 up to the level at which they run on 360, if it were no 360 we would be stuck with what they can do on PS3 with less effort, time and money; and that is a far less impressive game experience. PS3 FTL, you fail Sony.

[crillyconlig]

..does the ps3 have the best looking exclusives then if its a failer?

[na2ru1]

a 360 site.

[Strikepackage Bravo]

it came from the developer

[Viatrophy]

I don't understand how people on N4G (and this thread specifically) can go on about how lazy the developers are etc.
Why the hell did you think they went to Sony in the first place if they didn't want it on the PS3? They could of just left it, scrapped the idea of it coming out on the PS3 and only made it for the other platforms.
If ANYTHING you should be thanking Volition, for going through with the extra effort for calling in the help and getting it working on the PS3.

Most people here who call the developers 'lazy' wouldn't even know how to start with making a game, or even know what code would be used etc. without having to use wikipedia and other websites.
Grow the hell up..

[Strikepackage Bravo]

that if you want to make a PS3 game you have to spend extra money to hire help form Sony, this cannot be good for the future of the platform, more time money and effort = less developer support.

[PirateThom]

It's either that or risk no one buying the product once you are finished because it's gimped to all hell.

PS3 owners have, at best, been picky when it comes to multiplatform games due to promises of them "being the same" and PS3 version having issues. Fallout 3 was a prime example, bar the issue with the notifications freezing the game for a few moments, that game runs fine, but people are refusing to buy it because they heard it was gimped. Just like they refused to buy The Orange Box, even after it was patched and it mostly runs fine now.

PS3 accounts for too large a portion of multiplatform sales now to be ignored and it's in their best interests to get help from people at Sony to make sure their game is running properly.

[Majors]

At least they had the sense to ask for help from Sony and get what they are trying to achieve, unlike other companies who have no time to reprogram code and just publish it as it comes - hence inferior ports.
If all companies just took a few weeks of Sony's help and guidance, they would all have better results all round which would lead to more sales and most importantly a better understanding of the architecture their programming for. After all PS3 is NOT like a PC so stop porting from one.

[PirateThom]

Basically there was two options here:

Work alone and end up with a gimped PS3 version harking back to 2007
or
Ask Sony for help from their dedicated team who are there for the reason of helping to recode 360 lead games for PS3.

They picked the second option. PS3, for the last time, is not based on PC arcitecture/tools like the 360. The way it's built is that, with effort, you can surpass the 360's top level, but it needs so much work, some devs don't see it as a worthwhile investment right now.

[Strikepackage Bravo]

says alot about their commitment to the PS3 fans, they were will to spend extra cash just so you guys get a copy of the game that is on par with the 360 version.

What thanks do they get, you guys calling them lazy?

Wow, anything but blame Sony right?

[divideby0]

so a developer needs help coding on new hardware...whatz the big frigging deal ? next game they will put out, they will not have to ask for help and the game will just be better

[kazan]

as a gamer i need a game that whenever i put my hands on it i'll be having fun, single-plays or online-palys . A game for me is something that i enjoy spending time with.. just deliver a good game othere than that i dont really care.

[Ren]

somebody disagreed with you...

[BrianC6234]

Memo to Volition: Don't port games to the PS3. I don't hear anyone else claiming that the PS3 is a problem anymore. You just have to be smart and create your game for the PS3 and port to the 360. Everyone has known this for a long time. Get with the program already.

[ionisdialos]

i was going to buy this
but after the mess that was SR2

volition and thq can suck my c*ck
sorry excuses

[kenshin329]

at least they were able to make a quality port

[Needles]

here we go again, fanboyz trying to squeeze the event away to their positive side...guess wat, its a fact that ps3 lacks ram, u cant argue this point, and, i hope u guyz understand about the developers kit progress and the conflict with the ps3, otherwise, plz dont try arguing if u dont know wat a developers kit is...
and believe me, its not the systems power u will experience while playing, its the way the game got developed, for e.g. RFOM 1 is on the ps3 "the strongest console ever made" and the game has one of the worst graphics compared to other next gen games....get a grip noobz, dont start talking about things ur not sure about...sadly, thats wat most of u r doing these dayz.

[Needles]

...why would a developer not consider creating the game for the ps3 and then port to the 360 if they find a fair advantage? why? r u much more clever then the developer? oo plz go develop games u may do better than those guyz...ya, sure, u just think towards ur side, "make it for the console that i love" guess wat again...ITS CREATED ON THE 360 AND PORTED TO THE PS3! TADAAAA!...get used to it, otherwise, u can consider buying a 360 if u dont like it. if not, u may consider quiting gaming.

[makingdamage]

And what about the problem of fitting the game on a dvd without gimping it like several other multiplat games couldn´t deal with?

[DA_SHREDDER]

If Red Faction 3 is such a marvelous and magnificent game, then why does it all fit on one dvd9? I just think that Volition lacks the expertise to make a good enough game for the ps3 version. Cmon, even John Carmack says the ps3 is harder to work with, but it produces the best results in the end. Even Gabe Nubell or whatever his name is from Valve said that Multi thread code is the future for games,, yet he hates the ps3 as well.

[IWentBrokeForGaming]

This franchise should've been built up from the ground up for the PS3 as the franchise started on PS2!

[darthv72]

When a game is made with the 360 as the lead it will create problems porting the code to the PS3 due to the way the memory and cpu/gpu structure is laid out. That is not to say that devs can't make it work it is just meaning that devs have to rewrite their code to take into account the design of the PS3.

There is no doubt that the power and performance both systems can produce is equal. The problem isnt about being lazy either. The problem is the time invested in one manner of developing needs to be started over from scratch to achieve the same level on the other platform. That is time (and $$) most 3rd party devs do not have.

The best strategy to achieve the same result for a multiplatform game is to make the PS3 the lead. The way the 360 can port from the PS3 is far more efficient than the other way around. Think of it like the 360 can do what the PS3 does with a minimal amount of changes but the PS3 can't do what the 360 does without allot of changes.

Games development for both platforms can benefit more equally if the PS3 is lead due to the ease of porting code to the 360. Those that think a single game made on the PS3 CANT POSSIBLY be made on the 360 due to hardware restrictions (ie: memory, capacity) are wrong. The only way a game can not be made from PS3/360 and vice versa is due to the publishing rights and contracts put in place to secure them.

I have yet to see a game made on either platform that could not be made for the other. I have played games like Uncharted and Metal Gear Solid 4 and LBP. All of those games could be made for the 360. Thing is, they wont because of publishing rights. I have played Gears of war and Halo 3 and Banjo Kazooie and can say those games could be made for the PS3. Thing is, they wont because of publishing rights.

Point is, anything is possible provided that the publishers and developers do not let hardware restrictions of one platform deny them the ability to make their game on another. Unless their is a contract prohibiting so.

[xg-ei8ht]

Consider buying a 360.

Considering...........

Decision..............

RROD.

No thanks.

The ps3 has less ram then the 360 because of the os, plain and simple.

Da daaaa

This is from the burnout paradise devs:

With the latest SDK Sony freed up some memory. We've upgraded to this SDK and made use of the extra memory to scale the 720p game to 960x1080 as part of the very final post-process render stage in the game; this 960x1080 video mode uses the PS3 hardware scaler to upscale the image horizontally to output at 1920x1080.

"This scaling process in Burnout costs a very small amount of frame time (under 0.4% of a 60hz frame, which we can afford without dropping frames) since we're going to a larger number of pixels, but it enables those with 1080i TVs that don't support 720p to play in HD.

360 memory usage is around 35mb.

PS3 memory usage is around 52mb. That's the last one i heard about 1.60fw.

PS3 memory usege at launch was 96mb.

The only trouble being, that all ps3 owners would need to update to the newest firmware, and those without net con would not be able to do so, unless they buy certain games that contain the firmware. I think uncharted was one of them.

But i like what the burnout devs did, allowed older tv's to play in 1080i or you can play 1080p. with no fps loss.

With microsoft's new stuff coming out, i'm in no doubt their os footprint will increase.

[Radiodread]

the ps3 version will suck as always. Hell even if the ps3 is the lead platform it'll suck look at dead space, mirror's edge.

[WINZLOW]

might pick this up

[joevfx]

they are just sweat shops that just pound out the quickest cheapest game they can make. god bless companies like Insomniac and naughty dog to show crap developers how to make a real game.

[Silverwolf]

I'm beginning to believe that Infinity ward were the only one's smart enough to split there team in two. The end result was a great looking, smooth playing experience. And they both were released at the same time to boot! This coming from a company that doesn't have the man power that EA or Ubi have.

[biggsftw]

InfinityWard did one hell of a job on CoD4 and perhaps breaking off into two teams is what every company should start to consider from this day forward. The reason being is Sony already stated they would be putting Cell into the next playstation and I am sure Microsoft will continue to follow suit with its platform (minus the RRoD) keeping the same easy to program for architecture. If this is the case then the sooner both companies do this the better it is for everyone. I use to be a 360 owner (died four times, so I bought a PS3, not a single problem) but it seems as though the PS3 is getting the crappy end of the deal on a lot of these games. I know graphics aren't everything but it would sure be nice to have the same as the competition. If companies do not start making PS3 titles that are on par or better than the 360, I am afraid I might jump ship when the 720 (or whatever its called) comes around. I loved my 360, all four of em, and if that RRoD crap would have never happened, It is very well possible Sony might of been down and out of this race. But who cares about the what ifs. Personally it has gotten to the point where I dont even feel there should be a 360 and a PS3 on the market. The only differences are minor. Both should join forces and launch the ultimate gaming console period. I mean cmon, both have the same games, both rip off each others ideas, its like the same system, just different looks, different controllers, different online service but both do almost the same thing. (just so happens 360 does that part better) so whats the point. Exclusives are dying out more and more and now that final fantasy jumped ship, its like whats left? KZ2? sure its a good looking game and I am sure it will be a hit, but c'mon. GT5? Wow, Prologue was boring as hell just like all the gt games, but that is my opinion. Metal Gear Solid 4? played it, beat it, it collects dust. If the two would join forces, join pocketbooks, and make it easy for developers to create games (lazy or not) than we as the consumer would benefit greatly. Yes, I realize this will never happen but I can dream can't I?

[cyclindk]

Just see the new Killzone 2 trailer, not the Hellghan trailer, but the one of off-screen camera footage which looks spectacular. Volumetric smoke all the way baby!

[JasonPC360PS3Wii]

I don't know how many devs have to say the PS3 is gimped with RAM for it to sink in. I'm sure SDF is already trying to type up spin blogs to approve here on N4G. Now the droids will just hate Volition, even when they jumed on the Saints Rows train to boycott GTA and it's 360 love. For a final time (yeah right) the PS3 has inferior RAM, GPU and dev tools makin the`PS3 inferior to the 360.

Below is a vid that best describes what a droid is going through right now.

[GiantEnemyCrab]

LOL! That is excatly what I picture in my head when I read the fishhead comments.

Interesting quote:

"I mean, to be honest, we are pushing the Xbox 360 and PlayStation3 to the limits," he says."

So they have to push the all powerful PS3 to it's limits in order for it to do the same things the 360 version is doing?

"One little change and you're out of memory. When it comes to PlayStation3, there's less memory to work with."

Hrm..

[smurfie4]

Can you please explain to me why Uncharted, MGS4 and KZ2 look so much better if the ps3 is inferior to the 360? I don't think you can. I'll tell you what you will do. You will always resort to a 3rd party title as a basis of comparison to show which console is more powerful. I still don't see any 360 games surpassing Gears. For all this talk of how the 360 is superior i'm not seeing enough proof. Continue to boast about 3rd party titles while Sony's 1st party outshines them all.

[NickIni]

lmfao.

If the PS3 has inferior hardware, why are games like LBP, Killzone 2 and MAG only possible on the PS3? Surely, if it's hardware is so bad, these games wouldn't be on the PS3, and would be on the 360, or at least a multiplatform.

Another fail by a fanboy who's only friend is his console.

[karlostomy]

MGS4 is possible on 360
Uncharted is possible on 360
KZ2 is possible on the 360
MAG? what's MAG? Anyway... it's possible on the 360
LBP is possible on 360
(heck, it's possible on the wii)

I am hoping that one day the developers decide to release these games on the 360.

Anything that is possible is also possible on the 360
oh wait. they're not only possible, but would prolly look better too.

[Needles]

...one more thing, good luck with killzone 2, u REALY need it...cause it might bring back the memories of "HAZE"...and i woudnt doubt that. Flop.Flop.Flop.Flop.Flop.Flop. Flop.Flop.Flop.Flop.Flop.Flop.F lop.Flop.
Flop.Flop.Flop.Flop.Flop.Flop .Flop.Flop.Flop.Flop.Flop.Flop. Flop.Flop.
Flop.Flop.Flop.Flop.Flop.Flop .Flop.Flop.Flop.Flop.Flop.Flop. Flop.Flop.
Flop.Flop.Flop.Flop.Flop.Flop .Flop.Flop.Flop.Flop.Flop.Flop. Flop.Flop.
Flop.Flop.Flop.Flop.Flop.Flop .Flop.Flop.Flop.Flop.Flop.Flop. Flop.Flop.
Flop.Flop.Flop.Flop.Flop.Flop .Flop.Flop.Flop.Flop.Flop.Flop. Flop.Flop.
Flop.Flop.Flop.Flop.Flop.Flop .Flop.Flop.Flop.Flop.Flop.Flop. Flop.Flop.
Flop.Flop.Flop.Flop.Flop.Flop .Flop.Flop.Flop.Flop.Flop.Flop. Flop.Flop.
Flop.Flop.Flop.Flop.Flop.Flop .Flop.Flop.Flop.Flop.Flop.Flop. Flop.Flop.

[crillyconlig]

in the open zone please

[Needles]

i forgot another game that should be mentioned with haze as well, although i consider all the ps3 games as bad as haze (OPINION), only for FOLKLORE, which most of u guyz dont know about and its ur best game, anywayz, that game is....HEAVENLY SWORD, or wait, it should be renamed to, "FLOP"! or, "guide cannon balls somehow" actualy, "guid everything" :D, an AMAZING WAY OF USING UR SIX AXIX!!!!

[cherrypie]

You sony zealots can slice it any way you can; but this is a serious problem for Sony.

The PS3 is *not* the dominant platform, *AND* the games sales are weak as PS3 sales are actually split between "game guyers" and "bluray buyers".

For Developers, they need *game sales* -- and they arent going to continue to BURN money (time and effort == money) for PS3 games that dont sell. That is not going to happen.

3rd party support is already drying up for the PS3. You'd be foolish to think that Star Ocean 4, Final Fantasy and other once-PS titles are coming to Xbox 360 because MS did something; its because those Devs./Pubs. know that they can SELL GAMES on Xbox 360.

And, when you have to "struggle" to get games to run on the PS3 -- why are they going to bother?

I'll admit, I dont really have any love for Sony (because of their proprietary formats and their refusal to do anything about my 2 broken PS2s) -- but, anyone who looks at Sony's current situation, and cant see absolute failure is fooling themselves.

Volition (and others) are not going to just sink $20M into PS3 games only to see them loose it all because one buys the game. Why not spend $17M -- and get a better end-product -- for an Xbox 360 title that will actully sell?

[crillyconlig]

currently making more money from ps3 than xbox

[c-redz]

what a noob! um lets see sell more being on both or sell more being on 1 system! do the math, you make yourself look foolish kid!!!

[Firstkn1ghT]

http://www.n4g.com/NewsCom-...

Actually EA makes a lot more money on the 360. Stop spreading lies.

[crillyconlig]

my mistake, but ubisoft is making more from ps3, and EA is starting to make ps3 lead platform, easy to port plus its is selling games alot more these days

[NickIni]

"I mean, to be honest, we are pushing the Xbox 360 and PlayStation3 to the limits,"

No. If games like LBP, which is more complicated than this game, can be made, than seriously, I think there just pushing themselves to their limits as developers.

[Jackthepwnsaur]

This is what happens when your game is not PS3 lead platform. Developers have stated many times that to make a multiplatform console game, start at the PS3 then Port to the 360. It makes things easier and better and both versions are %99.9 equal. Hopefully these Devs start realizing this by the end of this year, or else they are going to get hammered by the consumers.

[Frizzo]

yet again, if they had focused on PS3 with its cell power instead of limiting it to RAM because of the xbox it would have been better...

these devs need to realize that more can be done with PS3, utilize that, then make the 360 version with a different team

[snoopgg]

Hell, they struggled with the ps2 version of Red Faction also. They definately aren't in the same leage with Ggames. Killzone 2 will shine above this pile of crap!!! They should have stopped last generation, cause that game was pretty weak.

[Firstkn1ghT]

This is old news. Everybody knows that the ps3 is a mess to develop for and has less memory than the 360. Rockstar had the same problem with GTA4 hence the delay. Many developers just cancel their projects on the ps3. It's no wonder why recent multi platform games like Fallout 3, Pure, and Dead Space look better on the 360. Stop trying to spin it sony fans, the ps3 just isn't as powerful as the 360.

I know sony fans are going to throw Uncharted in this argument. Well tell me, if Uncharted's graphics are so good than why didn't it win any awards for best graphics of 2007??? You know what game did? COD4! And COD4 is better on the 360. :)

[DJ]

512>512? Really?! LOL PS3 has double the memory bandwidth to boot. I don't know why Volition had so many issues when everyone else is making the PS3 sing.

[Needles]

http://www.n4g.com/NewsCom-... i shall paste it AGAIN1!!!!ONE!! http://www.n4g.com/NewsCom-... LOOK CLEARLY BEFORE U START SPREADING BULL CRAP!!

[Sarah Palin]

PS3 Fanboys.....you're attempts to clean up this situation are more pathetic than Bush trying to fix the Katrina Situation.

[Sarah Palin]

Um. Those games are only possible on the PS3, b/c 360 owners dont want to play a 60 hour movie with 2 hours of gameplay(MGS4).

[PS3rd the Turd]

lol PS3rd FTW

[4_real]

So I guess it's people like you that are responsible for all the "STUPID" people on this site! plz.. stop posting, and just.. go away.

[4_real]

"24 - THE DEVS HAVE SPOKEN
PS3 Fanboys.....you're attempts to clean up this situation are more pathetic than Bush trying to fix the Katrina Situation"

It's called.. "DAMAGE CONTROL" and yea.. they..(PS3 fanboys) are sucking bad at it. lol

[Kyur4ThePain]

Drake, R&C, WH, MGS, WipeOut and soon R2 and KZ2 all wave hi and give you a big, fat brown eye.

I find it entertaining to see how people judge console hardware by what it doesn't do instead of what it does.
I suppose it's ok for me to say the 360 is incapable of running R2, MGS, KZ2 etc. until I see it.
Damn.

The games mentioned above show what the hardware CAN do. This article shows what VOLITION can't do.

If I can take a car around a track in 2:00 but you can't, does that say something about the car's capabilities or about your driving skills?

[SaberEdge]

What it shows is that with great development talent and large first-party game budgets you can create games for the PS3 that are equal to some of the better 360 games.

We know that the PS3 is pretty close to the performance of the 360. That's not the issue. The issue is that it takes a significant amount of time and money to achieve that equal performance. And only the biggest budget first-party exclusives will be able to do that with any consistency.

[DJ]

The game doesn't even look impressive. Guess they didn't plan out the engine properly, 'cause both systems have the same amount of memory. It's just faster (but in smaller bites) on PS3.

[cloud9wpi07]

It is all about parallel processing. All this article says is that the some developers just are inferior and can only code on inferior systems. I really do not think this artricle gives any sort of ample evidence to saying the Ps3 is inferior. In addition this article does not fill the reader.

[Socomer 1979]

when Sony gives us a exclusive open world game.
hello infamous.

[Stryfeno2]

No comment :)

[karlostomy]

Why don't we ever hear developers complaining about the 360?

It seems the only console that we are always making excuses for is the ps3!

[SaberEdge]

karlostomy said:
"That's not quite correct.

Undoubtedly the xbox1 was more powerful than the ps2.

But what you neglect to mention is the fact that ALL the multiplats were better on the xbox1 than the ps2.

There was no excuses, no blaming developers, no waiting and waiting.
There was just better results on the xbox.

That is why the xbox is said to be more powerful than the ps2.

Contrast this to the current gen.
The ps3 can't match the 360, yet everyone refuses to believe Sony's superiority hype.

It just don't add up."

This is the truth. Sony always over-hype and under-deliver. The original Xbox was released over a year after the PS2 and it outperformed the PS2 right out of the gate. There was no need for excuses--the proof was there for everybody to see.

People often say that the reason PS3 versions of multi-platform games are generally inferior is because games are being ported from the 360. However, while porting does pose a few of its own challenges, there is absolutely no reason, if the graphical processing muscle is there, that developers shouldn't be able to consistently get equal performance on the PS3. After all, even though the PS2 was lead platform for the majority of games last generation, games still looked and performed better on the Xbox.

Another hole in this argument is the fact that even when a game leads on the PS3, in many cases it still ends up looking and/or performing better on the Xbox 360. For example, consider a game like Dark Sector which was reported to have been developed on PS3 as lead platform and yet for anyone who has compared both versions the PS3 version is clearly inferior to the 360 version. Not by a huge margin, but it's there. It runs at a lower resolution and the frame-rate isn't as consistent. An even more pertinent example would be the recent Mirror's Edge demo: many people who have played both versions have reported that the PS3 version is somewhat inferior to the 360 version. It's clear that even when the PS3 is the lead platform many games still end up performing better on the 360.

The fact is, the PS3 suffers from major bottle-necks in the areas of memory and the ability of the PPU to dole out tasks to the SPUs. These things will not ever magically go away. They will always pose a challenge to developers for as long as games are being made for the PS3.

[guiltyspark]

bump