X1 ESRAM & 720p Why It's Causing A Resolution Bottleneck

" The ESRAM of the Xbox One is perhaps the single largest issue developers are facing right now when porting games over to the machine. Leaks and rumors say it’s not only responsible for the lower native resolution of Xbox One Games, but also causing games to be harder to develop on the system. Let’s investigate the cause and clear up any confusion over the X1′s ESRAM."

[decrypt]

Well there is a reason Nvidia and AMD use GDDR5 for graphics. Memory bandwidth limitations can become a huge bottleneck. Luckily even todays mid range GPUs provide in excess of 250GB/s, high end GPUs provide north of 325GB/s. Cant wait till Maxwell when these figures will probably double.

No wonder PC pushes 4k gaming while other platforms are pushing 720p and literally struggling by the time they get close to 1080p.

[worldwidegaming]

people do not want to hear the truth. They wish to be mislead by catchy made up words and cool gimmicks.
Even when the ship is sinking they still think things are OK right down to the part where they are drowning.
In denial.

[amnalehu]

THE CLOUD will fix it....right..

[SmokexFFx]

@amnalehu

Yea, what ever happened to that powerful cloud Microsoft kept mentioning. Powerful enough to do significant amounts of processing and take the stress off the Xbox One didn't they say?

Oh but maybe 'developers haven't mastered it yet', just like developers haven't mastered the incredible complexity of ESRAM. /s.

[Prime157]

Ok, shrink it back in scale to 2006 when the 360 came out. Do you think you think no one was saying this?

Look, I agree with you fully: Console gaming is the budget gaming. However, there is still something to learn from it.

[vallencer]

Or, and heres a thought, maybe a majority of people just don't care as much as you or anyone else about how "powerful" a console is. That's the truth.

I'm buying both, not on day one mind you but eventually. I'm getting the x1 first and it's because of the games. I love killer instinct and im intrigued by Ryse. Also dead rising 3 sold me. I had planned on buying a ps4 at lunch but the only game i was interested in was infamous and that got pushed back.

Also as far as the rest of their games go more than half of those indie games i can just buy on steam so why spend the extra 400 when i have a pc.

But in all honesty both WILL be great systems regardless of what everyone wants to say on the internet. The amount of hate and doom everyone had for the ps3 ended up being false. Sometimes things just take awhile and microsoft knows that.

[mewhy32]

More and more problems for the bone.

[Consoldtobots]

for those that are technically challenged the long and short of it is this:

MS REALLY!!!!!!!! screwed up by going with GDDR3 as the article goes on to explain that as the BPP count rises this obsolete technology is up 90% slower than GDDR5 which you see on high end GPUs.
Sony knows what they are doing and MS does not, it's that simple.

[mikeslemonade]

Yep Sony has been around the block several times at making systems.

And please stop saying 4K TV or resolution. It's 2160P which is negligible. 1080p is enough for now. 720p isn't good enough.

[thorstein]

You're right. What I found most intriguing from the article is the phrase "...single largest issue developers are facing right now when porting games over to the machine"

PORTING games over to the machine. Is PC the lead? Is PS4 the lead development console? Is this what was referred to last gen as "gimping" a game to make it even for both consoles?

And if it is such a huge problem, then why is MS releasing the console now? Delay and do it right.

[thehitman]

Mid range GPUs dont have that much bandwidth I dont know where your getting those crazy numbers from. Anything higher than 160ish is high end. Everything 250+ is like super high end not even for real gaming purposes but for commercial/business purposes. Those Gpus are like 300-1k dollars.

Anyways this guy talks for a very long time if you dont want to listen to the entire vid like I did. I can sum it up. Basically ESram is not large enough they went with lowest cost over better performance. DDR3 sucks for everything gaming like most PC gamers know already... and if xb1 devs try to close the gap between the systems using the best tools it still wont be enough because of other bottlenecks. Ps4 is stronger than xb1 but we all knew that coming in he just explains why.

[nypifisel]

Here's a good chart showing the BPP for the most common rendering technique in modern engines (deferred rendering) without anti-aliasing.

A 1080p framebuffer using forward rendering and no AA at 32 bits per pixel would be ~24mb big, using deferred rendering which is far more likely would put it at the total of 2073600 pixels so at differing BPP(Bytes per pixel) we would get:

16 BPP: 31.64mb
20 BPP: 39.55mb
24 BPP: 47.46mb
28 BPP: 55.37mb
32 BPP: 63.28mb

As a reference BF3 (1080p on PC) is 20BPP and KZ:SF is 24BPP both without AA. I can't imagine Next Gen going any lower than 16BPP.

As you can see, even without any AA a FB using deferred rendering is almost always going to be bigger than 32mb (the maximum size for the eSRAM in Xbox One). It's the reason why the eSRAM is too small to be used as a FB for 1080p and why 720p will be norm on Xbox One if they want to keep up with graphical detail.

[deecee33]

Hey nypifisel:

I agree the ESRAM seems to be a huge hurdle at this point. I also think we might see that increasing graphics workloads could stretch the X1's fillrate to the limit earlier than the PS4 given that the gpu is less powerful than the PS4's. That's just a guess, but it seems likely.

Question for you since you seem to know a bit more about this: what types of visible issues could we see if indeed they decide to deferred render at 1080p using 16bpp? It seems like this might be noticeable?

[nypifisel]

@deecee33

Well unless rendering techniques changes in the near future (it wont) we will see a big downgrade in visuals on Xbox One version of games to hit 1080p. Let me try put it in easier terms;

Hmm.

you got one 16 cl glass which you first have to fill half way up with resolution (1080p) which gives you 8 cl left to fill with graphical detail (colours essentially). On the PS4 which have no restrictions what so ever in that department you could just take a twice as big of a glass, 32 cl, resolution at 1080p still takes up 8 cl but you have 24 cl left for graphical detail.

16 BPP and 1080p on the Xbox One means there aren't enough space for graphical fidelity.

Some of the most visible effects will be lack of AA solution. But it will also be such essentials as lack of dynamic lighting, reflections or even big textures. We can actually already see some of this in Forza. It's 1080p but it lacks a lot of the things you would've taken for granted by now; dynamic lighting, day night cycle (which is a result of the above), and the aliasing is pretty terrible too - I think we will see a bigger disparity going forward though cause the Xbox One won't be able to keep up in these departments.

[deecee33]

Thx nypifisel- I get you. The more details I read the more it seems like the XB1 was designed to be a fast 720p machine, which is fine, but you gotta wonder who thought of non-optional Kinect. Might not matter in ten years, because MS shareholders may nix the xbox if it's not profitable enough.

[nypifisel]

Hehe I'm sorry if it was a bit messy, It always makes sense in my head but trying to show this to other is a bit of a struggle. And yes your conclusion is very likely and fair!

[Bigpappy]

I don't believe ESRAM has anything to do with it. If it is under performing, it will more likely be the way the recourses are split among the 2 OS and Kinect. X1 is doing a lot more than the PS4 with its resources.

Most developers are very familiar with ESRAM. It requires the same techniques as those used on the 360.

[MCTJim]

Agreed :)

[thehitman]

esram has a lot to do with it. It really just isnt good enough point and simple. Developers maybe familiar with it, but that was when they were developing games with a lot lower textures and resolution. When you are trying to reach much higher power the esram falls short and developers have to find new tricks to use it in the best way with the other resources they have. Thats why every game that will launch will be not as good as the ps4 version because the ps4 architecture is not only easy, but very efficient in all aspects to meet todays demands for gaming.

MS having 3 OS on their system communicating with each other is a totally entire different discussion in itself that wont affect gaming but the applications part of the system which they seem to not be having a problem with. If there was apps crashing and game crashing when using the apps side by side then you would have a point.

[Cernunnos]

The frame buffer simply isn't large enough to handle 1080p.

[Bigpappy]

So how are they doing it with forza (1080p 60fps)? Ryse is 900p. Could they not have reduced the polly count to make the files smaller?

What ever happened to developer being lazy and focusing on the lowest common denominator? How come they are not gimping PS4 games like I was constantly told was the case with PS3? Just goes to show how much of what is said on the internet is only to suit a purpose, or just plain old lies.

[thehitman]

@Big just because the game is in 1080p @ 60fps doesnt really mean much if the quality of the textures themselves dont require much. Your forgetting forza is a racing game. It doesnt take much power to make plastic/metal look real like it does to make a human face and hundreds of animations/effects. Then you could dig deeper about the environments around not being dynamic etc just ultimately not requiring much power. Racing games are a terrible benchmark of what hardware can do.

Regarding Ryse it should be at 1080p not 900p. The fact its not even 1080p @ 30fps in itself is alarming. Also the gimping of ps3 games was not really because of huge power differences but because the 360 was still using dvd9 which means games were built to be a lot smaller. If you look at xb1 and ps4 look how huge the files are for the games. That is how it shouldve been this current gen for all games. Ps3 exclusives took advantage of the extra disc space but when it came to mulitplats majority didnt.

[Christopher]

***Most developers are very familiar with ESRAM. It requires the same techniques as those used on the 360.***

This is actually very true.

[MysticStrummer]

I don't know about other devs, but Rockstar admitted outright that things were cut from GTA4 because of 360.

[Bigpappy]

@MysticStrummer: if things were removed from the game because of 360, would it not likely be because of DVD rather than, power. Think for a second before spewing what ever fit your argument. Also provide a link, cause I have never heard of this and you guy done let stuff like that pass.

[LordMaim]

No reason they both can't be true.

[deecee33]

The ESRAM is one of a couple bottlenecks. As the article explained, the ESRAM has to be intelligently used to be useful at 1080p. There's also the issue of fillrate- you need enough raw tflop performance and a fast enough usable pool of memory to feed the gpu (and feed it fast enough) to push 60 frames at 1080p. Sony's machine seems capable with the stronger gpu- it is looking like the ESRAM may only be a secondary concern when the dust settles and developers re-learn to use it. At the end of the day they may need a faster gpu to keep up with increasing workloads at high res. Sony's best move wasn't just the GDDR5- it was a GPU with the fillrate to make true HD at stable fps a realistic goal for the devs.

[Volkama]

The 32mb ESRAM is apaprently too small for a 1080p render.

The 360 had 10mb EDRAM, that was surely too small for a 720p render.

The 360 had 720p games.

Maybe it's a little premature to shout "GAME OVER" at Redmond?

[nypifisel]

Maybe none of you understand how displaying pixels on a screen works. See the chart I posted above for FB sizes using deferred rendering. If the Xbox One wants to push 1080p it have to sacrifice in other areas, it's as simple as that. Whether the 360 with 10mb eDRAM could do 720p or not is really irrelevant.

[schubacca]

I will not be thinking about ESRAM when I am playing Forza 5, TitanFall, and Halo 5.

I have absolutely nothing bad to say about the PS4, which is the more powerful system with the best 1st party support.

However, I will still be also enjoying the X1.

[Mister_Dawg]

PC pushing 4k?

Have you the cost of the hardware you would need to only just get acceptable frame rates?
To get it to the realm of decent gaming, you have to go with multiple gpu's. Have a look in this months custom pc magazine. Holy crap, there's no way I'm dropping £600+ to get just over 35fps minimum at 4k in crysis 3.

No thanks.
PC isn't ready just yet for mass 4k.

[kane_1371]

Yeah, the top rigs that run 4k on crysis 3 cost actually around 6k.
They run dual Nvidia Titans, that alone is 2k+, then you have the rams, ssd, and CPU and suddenly you are bankrupt.

But hey, you can at least play crysis 3 on 4k full settings and show them console peasants who's the boss!

I hate PC elitist -___-

[Cernunnos]

1440p on the other hand is still twice the resolution that 1080p is. It looks gorgeous, and you can build a PC for less than 1000$ that can max bf4 with 1440p.

[lilbroRx]

I ran Crysis at max setting at a little over 2k on Nvidia 550 Ti. It ran smoothly.

Its really not as taxing as people think on PC.

[FTLightspeed]

@Cernunnos Presuming the same 16x9 aspect ratio as current HD, 1440p would have a resolution of 2560x1440, an over 50% improvement in resolution over 1080p. not double.

[decrypt]

@Mister_Dawg

Titans are not needed.

You could go for 3x GTX 780s or 3x R9 290's and achieve simular results for a much lower cost.

In any case PC graphics power doubles in 12-18months time. Meaning 4k should be much more affordable in 12 months from now.

[cooperdnizzle]

@LilbroRX. You are straight up lying. I have a 680, I7, 16GB of ram, and can not run the game at max settings higher then 1080p. No need to lie.

[Bathyj]

Its a very interesting read. MS have played it cheap with RAM for the sake of putting a camera in the box. Then they want us to believe having a really good band aid is better than not having a bleeding gaping wound in the first place.

On top of all that Kinect reserves 10% of the GPU and who knows how much of the RAM. MS has hamstrung itself out of the gate. If this were a racehorse it would be used to hold a chair together next month.

[OrangePowerz]

The 360 solution worked fine for the 360 with a maximum of 512MB RAM (not even deducting yet the OS memory).

When you bump up the RAM to 5GB for gaming and change to high res textures and so on from last gen the 32MB ESRAM don`t cut it anymore. With games taking up to 50GB there is a huge amount of data moving around constantly.

4k is nice and all but it takes a lot of performance and it`s not cheap with the TVs and Monitors and will take a couple of years until those are affordable. The performance need will further increase once games actually use 4k assets.

[kipsta]

Maxwell is going to be sweet! Q1/Q2 2014 apparently, very interested in a 880.

Looks like the ESRAM will be the "CELL" of this gen, being a pain is the a** for devs to work with.

[insomnium2]

Yeah well like we all know by now CELL actually worked. With the ESRAM being only 32MB I cannot see in what practical way the devs are able to use it. I just don't see it happening. It's like bringing a bus to are race where the opposition has a normal car. Sure you have lots more room for people but you are just too slow to be competitive. In this case it's the exact opposite. Lots of speed but no room whatsoever. You get the idea I'm sure.

[Automatic79]

By this time next year all games on Xbox one will be 1080p native. We already have a few examples for Xbox one so its a matter of time.

[LordMaim]

By this time next year, all games on Xbox will come with a party hat and a flamingo casserole. We already have a few examples of statements that have no basis, so it's just a matter of time before someone makes another one.

[AnthonyJrWTF]

I agree:

http://www.eurogamer.net/ar...

[lilbroRx]

You do know that there are many high end GPU's from Nvida and AMD that use DDR3 and work just as well right?

People have been gaming in 1080p and beyond for over a decade on RAM much smaller and slower than what the next gen consoles have in them.

Though why am I saying this here. No one cares about facts and reality on this site. All they care about is spec boasting, and ever since Sony announced that they are using all GDDR5, people have been treating it like god ram when its not.

Last gen it was the all about "THE CELL". Now its all about GDDR5.

The Wii U has enough 1080p games to make it clear that 32 MB of edram is more than sufficient for 1080p gaming.

Xone games not being 1080p likely has more to with the development decisions vs overall GPU processing power than RAM performance.

[dredgewalker]

There aren't any high end gpu's today that use ddr3, only the low end ones use it for cost reduction.

[SkullBlade169]

Never mind, replied to wrong person.

[DarkLordMalik]

The article lists PS4 GPU TFLOPS as 18.4TFLOPS. It is a simple mistake here. It is actually 1.84 TFLOPS.

[Deividas]

Not sure why you have disagrees for pointing out a mistake.

[Sci0n]

some can't handle the truth

[Double_O_Revan]

Could you imagine if it was 18.4? o.O

[reynod]

Not a problem get 3x R9 290's in Crossfire and you are close to 17 TFLOPS of power :P Probably hit 18 TFLOPS with a bit of overclocking probably eclipse it lol.

Will cost about 1500usd though Not bad to have power that may be available on the next consoles when they launch in 7-8 years time.

[Cernunnos]

a pair of R9 290's are not even close to 17 TFLOPS.. It would be closer to 6 TFLOPS.

[Volkama]

A single R9 290X is something like 5.1 tflops stock. The regular R9 290 is expected this week, priced at approximately 1 PS4 and pushing 4.6 tflops.

They're still quite expensive, but the expensive PC of today is the mid-range PC of next year.

The moral of the story is console gamers should just talk about games :)

[saikorican]

Just because someone can't afford $1500+ of tech doesn't mean they shouldn't be concerned about visuals. A little tired of PC users coming in and commenting about on every console article abut how PC is so far ahead if you have the cash for it. There's other forums for that you know.

[creatchee]

This is a well-written, unbiased article that actually explains a lot of things instead of simply saying A is better than B. Even though X1 will have developers working harder, I'm sure that they will be able to get a lot out of the console once they've learned the tricks of it.

[iceman06]

I've heard the same thing stated from our resident "tech experts" on N4G. But, it's great to see this coming from an unbiased source.

[Edsword]

I agree, the XB1 will likely have some very pretty and excellent games. However, I don't think its just a matter of working harder, XB1 games will likely always lag behind the PS4 in terms of graphics. MS best path forward is to focus on gameplay mechanics and new IPs to convince people graphics is not everything. However, the PS4 is pretty formidable and will likely have new IPs and great games as well. MS can still win this generation and certainly they have some capable development studios to do so. I just hope they don't try to buy this gen by purchasing a bunch of 3rd party exclusives, that is not fair to gamers of either console or PC.

[Kushan]

There's nothing unbiased about this source, he's actually completely mistaken about the ESRAM as well. He's trying to state that the ESRAM is the bottleneck of the system when the reality is that it's the DDR3 that's holding everything back. The ESRAM actually helps reduce that bottleneck.

It's still not an excuse for cheaping out on the system Memory.

[dansdooz]

Designed for 10 years? This shit will be redundant in 6 months, sony pushing 4k tvs hard now, if they cant find a workaround for the resolution this thing is dead in the water, according to the article it seems we can expect most titles from xb1 to be sub 1080 :-(

[reynod]

Well even the PS4 wont be pushing 4k games. Will need a PC to run games in 4k on Sony 4k tvs.

Hence when thinking of 4k TVs both the consoles will be redundant in that context.

[dansdooz]

My point being 4k is becoming more affordable and will keep coming down in price, for people to say 720 is acceptable for a state of the art gaming console in 2014 is laughable, i dont expect the consoles to be able to handle 4k but 1080 at least...
I remember when ryse had the resolution debate i had taken for granted that everything would run native in 1080p this gen and was quite shocked.
Just wish we could get some answers from microsoft some people feeling quite cheated out of their money at the mo but you hang on hoping for some good news that may never come...

[Gridloc]

4k tv's upscale 1080p signals,but I'm not sure what an Xbox game running 720p native upscaled to 1080p then upscaled again by the 4k tv would look like. It will be interesting to see the results in less than 3 weeks.

[Phoenix76]

This heap of s*** was redundant 'before' it even hit the market!!!

[isa_scout]

Great read...Only one problem, I now feel much dumber after having read it. Now I must come to terms with the fact that when it comes to technology I am on the same basic knowledge level as a small child.
Don't get me wrong I loved reading(ok attempting to read)it, but if you actually understood it props to you because you're much smarter than I.

[lsujester]

And props to you for admitting that. Most people would have made some half-assed comment to justify their console of choice.

[iceman06]

I agree totally!!! I enjoyed the read and the knowledge therein. However, as you stated, I feel as inadequate as I suspected that I was...technologically speaking.

[Juiceid]

Yeah, I was like whaaaaaa, and like huuuuh. Whoa, one word I understand! Then kept reading and back to whaaaaa again...now I have a headache. I think the xbox will be nifty all around, but it's Sony's game this time around.

[Mikelarry]

lol at some of the comments you guys are too much.

OT: very informative and interesting video thanks to the person who submitted this. its all good when people say "oh the ps4 is 50 percent more powerful than the xbox one" i wanted to know why and this video answered most of my questions.

[Clarence]

M$ " We've got custome chips here, and that my friend is what is going to set us apart from the PS4." Custome chips my a$$.

On another note. Thank you Mark Cerny.

[lsujester]

No, no, no, remember they have double super secret GPUs with the main one. In fact, they are so secret, no developer has found them yet.

[sigfredod]

lol

[GentlemenRUs]

Its even more secret that its not even found in the console!

[Angels3785]

Even microsoft themselves have yet to discover them....they just appear within a small wormhole in every xbox one...

[tagan8tr]

So secret even Microsoft does'nt know whats in it lol

[NeoTribe]

I think they accidently installed there super sauce in the ps4s.

[Persistantthug]

Actually.......

It's 3 GPUs.

[Sci0n]

its hidden in the clouds

[vigilante_man]

Once President Obama leaves office may I suggest you Americans appoint Mark Cerny!!

In England we already call him Sir Mark Cerny...

[MitchellK]

Mmm custom chips. What flavor are they. Can I eat them while playing my ps4?

[SpideySpeakz]

Redgamingtech is the most reliable information source out there, but very underrated. When I read they're information, it feels like I'm reading from actual developers, not amateurs/sensationalist like RTUSA.

[Edsword]

Even if developers can get more out of XB1 memory using the ESRAM, the PS4 GPU has still got quite a bit more going for it. I realize this could mean the gap is bridged a little for multi-plats, but the disparity between exclusives is likely to continue to grow as the ease of development will simply mean faster optimization of PS4 hardware. While XB1 developers are wrestling to get to 1080p, PS4 developers will be looking how they can increase the world size or push better effects. All you have to do to see that is look at Killzone Shadow Fall and see how Guerilla is spending its time with lighting and volumetric 'moving' fog. While I believe both systems will have great games, I seriously doubt the XB1 will ever catch up to the PS4 this generation.

[MasterCornholio]

Overtime games will get better on the Xbox One as the developers get used to the esram but the gap will widen when they start to use compute. Very interesting video to tell you the truth.

Like he said when Microsoft starts to accelerate Sony will just use some good old fashion NOS and beat them.

Nexus 7 2013

[stuna1]

So what's being discussed in this video is, that the Xbox1 will always be at an disadvantage when it comes to the PS4! The Esram is possibly the biggest thorn in the side of the system, and developers and when developers finally do get a handle on the functions of the Esram, potentially lessening the gap, the gap will widen once again once the GPU compute comes into play considering the PS4 has twice the compute unit available with 72 standard as opposed to 36 in the Xbox1. Shader unit, Rops will play a role also. It's only logical to believe that developer will not be able to mask the differences between the consoles as time passes.

From what is apparent from the onset is...... Sony has built the superior console, it will likely hold that superiority the entire generation! Nothing the naysayers, Non believers, even Microsoft are going to change that. Why people are not able to see that Hardware is not Microsofts strong points is never a argument that should be up for discussion.

[iceman06]

Honestly, I haven't seen a tech expert yet that even hinted at Xbox 1 being better. They all say that it "has it's benefits" or " might be able to compete with PS4 once developers come to grips with it..." In the end, the specs spoke loud and clear from the get go. That's not to say that MS won't pump out some great looking, great playing games. On the contrary, it's really saying that PS4 is just more powerful and easier to develop for...so there won't be any excuses for lackluster titles (in comparison to Xbox 1).

[stuna1]

I agreed with you, but my statement is more so angled at the one's who seem to think that Microsoft can somehow squeeze blood from a rock! Sony has a system that focused on gaming first and foremost, then media secondary. Yet we have those on this very site arguing semantics, trying to fit a block through a hole, that's entirely too small. My favorite argument is, how theoretically on paper it's shown that the PS4 is the more powerful of the two, but in real life, they are somehow on par with one another! I'm of the mind that in real life the Xbox1 would still be weaker, because theoretically speaking it would also take the exact same hit that the PS4 has taken converting everything to real world performance! Theoretically speaking that is of course.

Anyway just because Microsoft has chosen to mislead its fanbase, is no reason for some of the more adamant followers to not question the true motives behind Microsoft obvious deceit! The truth or mumblings of the truth are out there, and when thing after thing keeps popping up, it's time to start asking questions.

[Godhimself_In_3d]

I Agree 100%. I believe what happened was 1) MS was expecting a 4gb ram ps4 and that didn't happened. 2) Thinking developers were gonna go for parity. 3)Underestimated Sony because they said the Ps3 was more powerful and the 360 was running better on multiplats. I'll be playing killzone in 1080p and ryse in 900p do you think care no. I loved cod and it was running under 720p not lost in fun for me. I think its just the n4g double standard xbox fanboys diss ps fans if a game runs and looks better on there system even if it was just by a frame or better aa lol and blind ps fan would defend it to the death lmao. Now that has gone on the whole generation.simply put xbox fans its your turn plain in simple the esram is the new cell processor.

[Badassbab]

Why people are not able to see that Hardware is not Microsofts strong points is never a argument that should be up for discussion.

Xbox was very reliable and more powerful than PS2

Xbox 360 had reliability issues in the first few years but as far as the tech it was a great piece of kit no doubt about it. It won most head to heads and was much easier to develop for than the PS3 at least for a good few years.

Xbox One for all intents and purposes looks from a strictly gaming hardware point of view very much inferior than the PS4 and I doubt the Xbone will be able to turn the tide with regards to best looking games like the PS3 did against the 360. But we will see.

[Godhimself_In_3d]

True but i think its the xbox fanboys that have a problem with this. Ps3 was powerful but simple bottle necks held it back. Its easy to mask it in a exclusive game because you build it to its strengths and the same will happen with xbox. The Ps3 specs are better on paper but a simple oversight came back to haunt them the entire generation fact. I will have fun with systems but face it yes the tools will get better for xbox but to most blind fanboys they think ps4 will stay the same. Fact is ps4 has another gear with gpgpu and it will widen the gap.If your a real xbox fan support your system of choice i here you guys all day xbox live is better,kinect is better better exclusives graphics don't matter so why cry about it. I preferred Ps3 to xbox but i was not blind that games ran better on 360.Graphics matter your hurt behind 720p vs 1080p Im hurt i spent 3781.00 for 4k and Im getting none of that. i bought a new tv for both next gen consoles to play together and left my pc with specs for 2008 Im sick

[iceman06]

Agreed. That's why I said that I hadn't seen a single tech expert say that. Not that I don't value the "opinions" stated on this site. But, when even keeled and unbiased tech people say that there is an inherent edge, I tend to believe them. The theoretical arguments mean nothing but the final thing to hang hopes on. I really don't want to pile on, but I really don't get the blind loyalty to anything or anybody. I am of the "real life", get the facts, make a decision and don't care what people think mind state. All of the denial in the world can't change facts. Statistics may lie, but numbers never do.

[Plagasx]

I'm done with this resolution crap.

[LordMaim]

Good! Congratulations, and hope you enjoy your PS4!

[BOLO]

It's alright...Resolution is done with you too.

[MasterCornholio]

Good to hear why Microsoft used that awkward memory configuration.

Nexus 7 2013

[bleedsoe9mm]

its a big assumption that the ESRAM bottleneck is the issue holding the xb1 from 1080p . it could just be the late final dev kits getting out and a extremely shortened dev time ,or something else , we have no idea , we won't know if there is an issue until we see the next batch of games .

[MCTJim]

I cannot figure out why "sources" say its so hard to develop for. The ESRAM is the evolution of what was used in the 360 and it was easy to program for. I too agree that it would be final kits/drivers and software threw the devs for a loop. I do agree the PS4 may have an edge when it comes to development but not as much as certain people make it seem.

[Cernunnos]

Because it is too little of it for todays games. You simply cannot fit a huge resolution like 1080p inside a 32mb frame buffer, let alone things like anti aliasing or other gpu-compute effects.

Last gen 32mb was a big enough frame buffer, today it isn't. Last gen also required a lot more work when porting games to begin with, due to the 3 very different architechtures.

This gen, devs will expect the consoles to run the PC versions, with some minor tweaks, since they are all essentially using a standard x86 architechture. Devs will then not be bothered to work around the 32mb limit, instead of just simply downgrading the resolution.

[iceman06]

The way that it was explained on another website, in terms of ESRAM, made it pretty simple. Think of the ESRAM as a highway. A highway can have 1 lane or several lanes. On Xbox, a simple 2 lane highway was sufficient enough to move the traffic (data) and was efficient at doing so. However, on Xbox One it's like trying to move New York or LA traffic using the same 2 lane highway. It will move, but will not be very efficient. Hence, the bottleneck. It simply needs more of that ESRAM to push the newer, larger textures through the frame buffer. Tiled resources and better tools should help this issue. But, when devs move more to gpu compute tasks it could further put a strain on the ESRAM.

[vigilante_man]

Oh now. Not more denial. Come on guys, seriously?

We only heard about 30% differences. Now it seems up to 50% in some games. PS4 IS the most powerful games console in the world right now.

That does not mean the XB1 is not a massive step up from the 360. That does not mean owners will not have many great years of next gen magic. It only means PS4 has the raw GPU and unified Ram power advantage.

Look forward to your great XB1 games to come, the amazing TV and social features, and the awesome tech that gets developed for the very expensive and incredibly powerful Kinnect 2.

Just stop being in denial.

[bleedsoe9mm]

come now , if you want to believe rumors as fact go ahead . i'm not ruling it out as a possibility just that you can't confirm it as the cause . and even the most staunch xbot fan can't claim that the ps4 must be easy to develop for and may have a slight power advantage , whether that coverts into a big difference down the road , is opinion not fact . and for the record i would put myself in the sony camp , although i have and will own both systems .

[vigilante_man]

Did you actually read the article? Have you not read the many articles on the internet claiming developers find the PS4 much easier and faster to create games with? Have you not heard that XB1 multi-platform games will be less resolution than PS4 games?

The body of proof, my friend, is overwhelming. The proof of the pudding is in the eating. The proof of the console power is in the resolution and fps (plus textures and effects).

Lets all agree and move on with enjoying next gen greatness on XB1 and PS4. To keep denying makes those in denial seem rather daft and foolish - neither of which I assume can be said of your good self.

[bleedsoe9mm]

@vigilante_man if you believed early rumor of last generation you could have come to the conclusion the ps3 was less powerful than the 360 , although it turned out to be development issue with the cell and unreal engine . just as there is not enough evidence today only hints than can make people draw the wrong conclusion . we'll have a much better picture when these console are out and tested and the next batch of games arrive

[stuna1]

@bleedsoe9mm

But many of the things mentioned of Microsoft are no longer rumors! They are proven facts, with more facts coming out daily. We know that there is a disparity concerning multiplatform titles, proven! There are difference in resolution, proven! Difference in Hardware, proven! Difference in support, proven! Difference in pre-orders, proven! What more needs to be proven!?

[Badassbab]

It's not just ESRAM though. The GPU in the Xbone is much weaker. That's got to count for a lot more than the RAM set up. ESRAM issue is frame buffer (lower resolution or inferior renders to fit inside 32MB) but what happens in the future when games get more complicated and taxing on the hardware? It won't be just the resolution that takes a hit but the rendering targets as well in order to keep the frame rate smooth.

[sigfredod]

I think MS made a mistake, when they learn that the PS4 will have 8gb of ram instead of 4gb and also GDDR5, they knew that were on trouble, since they already had their console designed by that moment had to find a workaround, and the esram solution came up, but i imagine that by budget reasons the amount of esram was too low to compensate, they should swallow their pride and drop the forced kinect and put more esram, its what i think

[Godhimself_In_3d]

That's the same thing rich of review tech usa said sega did it with the sega Saturn. Once the seen the specs of ps1 they just put another processor in it and look what happened

[Drewidian]

One of the mistakes MS made was designing a system in comparison to another console. What they should have done is designed a system that could do all of the things they envisioned and make sure it ran at 1080P games with the potential to run at 4k for the future. I get it that they were trying to keep costs down, but apparently they are making a small profit on each system. Sony in contrast is loosing somewhere around $60/PS4. Sony's decision to do this is in part what is winning this round. If MS had just sucked up the cost of the DDR5 RAM and kept the system at $499, I think they would have met all of these requirements.

The biggest problem I think is the Business men's decision to keep the entire system profitable at launch, thus leading to the compromises in the hardware. I get there are probably other reasons to price the Xbox One where they did related to wholesale and unannounced partnerships, but I still think that the business decisions influenced the engineering a bit too much.

[stuna1]

Exactly! Microsofts console should have been a natural evolution of what they, and their fanbase thought should have been the next step up. This is why it's so important to listen to the feedback presented to you, it helps you determine what the general consensus is, as well as what developers want. This is also why Microsoft was met with such strong opposition following their reveal, because they simply did not listen to the warning signs.

[Hakoom]

putting all the #s aside
lets wait and see what ps4 and x1 has to offer in 2~3 years
numbers and stats dont mean anything now

[rmw2hot]

dead rising 3 is also a 720p game and I'm positive there's a lot more xbone games next year that's gonna b 720p

[Mithan]

These problems will be worked out with time and it wont really matter, but ultimately it still means the PS4 is more powerful.

However, the PS3 was more powerful than the X360 and look where that went? Nowhere for the most part.

[HappyWithOneBubble]

"However, the PS3 was more powerful than the X360 and look where that went? Nowhere for the most part."

Look at PS3 exclusives compared to 360. More power does matter. 360 got by with timed exclusive multiplats and DLC. MS scared to compete against Sony real exclusives.

[Themba76]

thats because of two factors #1 reason is it was cheaper than ps3 #2 reason cross game chat sony made a huge mistake underplaying it most of my friends on xboxlive said they wouldn't touch a ps3 until they got crossgame chat. sony's system is indeed more powerful but those two factors really hurt them. oh and there is a 3rd reason too xbox 360 was easier to program for as well so those are the reasons.

[Nathaniel_Drake]

Isn't funny though that the powerful system actually for the first time beat an underpowered system, (talking about two consoles fighting for the same demographic not the Wii), well it seems games were the reason and really Sony is the only one that could have pulled that off

[DevilishSix]

Nowhere for the most part, how you figure? The PS3 has had more exclusives and sold more than the 360 this gen. 360 is in last place in worldwide sales. Seems other than selling more units in US, the 360 has gone no where, especially in Europe and Japan.

[HappyWithOneBubble]

Now that 360 is last in sales, MS don't brag about sales anymore lol.

[Mithan]

It made no difference in the end. If you don't see that, you are blind. The systems are virtually identical sales wise, only stupid fan boys will bicker about the differences.

Both systems were a success. Done.

No, that doesn't mean this will happen again this generation, but it wont matter in a few weeks times.

[imt558]

Yes, PS3 is really powerful than X360 and only PS3 exclusives show what PS3 can do. But there is diffence. Difference in FLOPS PS3 vs. X360 is about 60 GFLOPS in PS3 favor ( forget about 2 TF Sony PR bullshit at 2006. ). Difference between PS4 and XO is about 550 - 600 GFLOPS in PS4 favor. And that is not a small gap.

[Hicken]

So your rebuttal when people respond to your comments with facts is, "You're wrong because I say you are. The little difference that DOES exist between PS3 and 360 won't change. The only thing that counts is what I say."

Textbook.

[SynestheticRoar]

So what X1 went the wrong way with ESRAM. Microsoft still have the best fan boys on the planet. Period.

[vigilante_man]

Whatever side you are routing for, that was funny!!

[Sci0n]

bubble for being clever

[DevilishSix]

I understand what MS planned here. They wanted a media device that also played games. They needed DDR3 because its better with operating systems (less lag) and the X1 has 3 operating systems in it. MS figured if they could sell this to gamers to start with then it would be smooth sailing as more and more casuals hoped on board and wanted the other features. What they didn't plan was Sony's launch this year.

Also, MS didn't plan on was how social media spreads like a wild fire now. When they launched 360 there was no facebook, twitter, etc. and the marketing falsehoods were exposed quickly and their jig was up.

MS also figured worse case scenario, it wouldn't matter because last gen Wii was least powerful and sold most, but problem was the Wii offered a new way of playing games with the Wiimote. The kinect has already run its course last gen and nothing released in the last 3 years showed we need it for gaming.

[HappyWithOneBubble]

http://cdn.meme.li/i/ftdtn....

[imt558]

God damn! Very good article.

[MultiConsoleGamer]

Nope.

[Juangie3]

You so smart!! Lol

[Daves]

.

[Daves]

.

[Daves]

Memory aside, maybe the GPU isn't up to it.

Either way, whatever the problem it's just not as good as PS4... it's that simple.

EDIT: the site froze on me. Didn't mean to post multiple times.

[Nekroo91]

i wasnt expecting to see any difference for at least 3 years...

Im happy for sony

[Majin-vegeta]

Microsoft made a media machine that played games.On the other hand Sony made a gaming machine with media as an afterthought.

Sony>M$

[windblowsagain]

The ESRAM was a mistake in the first place.

But no matter how much they optimize.

The GPU in the xboxone does not have enough power.

It's a FACT

Xbox one's GPU is more like a 7770+/ It is NOT a 7790.

[Guwapo77]

This author thinks Sony changed ram from 4 gigs to 8 gigs at the last moment. That just doesn't add up at all...why? The OS uses 3.5 gigs of ram! So the PS4 would have the same amount of ram for games as the PS3? ...Doesn't add up bruh.

[vigilante_man]

Originally Sony were using 1GB for the OS and 3GB for games. Even Sony admit they were told that to go with 4GB RAM would be suicide.

Most people thought Sony were going with 4GB until the Feb reveal. I remember watching it and the look on Mark Cerny's face when he announced 8GB GDDR5 RAM hints that they were so happy that they had surprised everyone.

This was the one thing MS had an advantage over Sony. In one foul swoop that was eliminated. Call it luck, call it genius - it has now proven to be a masterstroke.

[Unknown]

I agree with you.

[larrysdirtydrawss]

its been strongly hinted by devs/insiders at beyond3d/gaf that its a 6/2 split. 6 for games,2 for o.s (ps4)

[bligmerk]

Yeah, the initial 1GB for the OS was probably meaning how big it was. Then Sony said 3GB for the OS, which was the space allocation for it. That didn't mean the OS was taking all 3GB, it was just a wall for developers to have 5GB for games but Sony was saying the OS runs very efficiently under 2GB, so they would be opening up 6GB for game devs.

[Guwapo77]

I'm hearing recent reports that there is 1 gig of "flex" ram. So if a game needs more ram it can tap into 3.5 reserved for the OS.

I do expect Sony to reduce the OS footprint like they did with the PS3. I do expect in time that up to 5.5 gigs will be dedicated to games.

[Unknown]

I think there is alot more than meets the eye here. From the high number of unknowns on how the XO's custom hardware is setup to the fact that MS was late to ship developers final dev kits and the list goes on. As smart as this guy is he still doesn't really know all the inner workings of the system.

John Carmack was wise enough to say that he believed the two to be comparable but hadn't run any test so he wasn't sure. I can respect that instead of people trying to speculate based off of here say and a spec sheet.

I'm not denying the fact that all signs point towards the PS4 being superior. But given the fact that Forza runs at 1080p proves the fact that the system can do 1080p with no problem.

[larrysdirtydrawss]

its a simple racer,sports/racers should have liitle trouble

[Unknown]

It's not a simple racer. Thats a lame excuse to discredit the game. Keep it real. Forza is a beast. I haven't heard not ONE journalist or anyone in the industry try and discredit the game. Take your fan googles off for once. Maybe then you can truly start to enjoy gaming instead of being a bickering fanboy.

[ShwankyShpanky]

"But given the fact that Forza runs at 1080p proves the fact that the system can do 1080p"

Fixed.

It can't do it "no problem." Sacrifices must be made to achieve that native resolution. If it were "no problem," you'd have Xbone CoD at 1080p native.

[speed389]

the reason why m$ is in the spot they are is because of greed and wanting a profit right away... thats it... how about make something with new technology instead of passing over old technology because it was on the clearance rack... its like M$ shoped at the dollar tree and PS shopped at Whole foods for there parts lol

[Orionsangel]

Xbox One will fail next gen. PS4 will rule the next gen!

[Bio_Mod]

Very good video, explained a lot

[headblackman]

I would like to reserve my full assessment of this situation till after the Xbox one has been released. but in all fairness, the games were never designed to run from the disc in the first place. I highly doubt that the esram is the the real issue here. I honestly feel that they just don't wanna mention DRM anymore. but I'm confident that they will pull it together in an amazing fashion as usual. my money stays on the Xbox one. see you on Xbox live on Nov. 22nd

[Rhythmattic]

Ok.. optical disk is slower than off HDD, Off HDD is slower than DDR3 Ram, Off DDR3 Ram Is slower than the eDRAM, All is faster than the cloud.....

Just think about it.

[headblackman]

none of that is faster than a cloud that's being pushed by unpresidented computers and server clusters. the Xbox one was designed to play solely from the network and not from the disk. the dist was simply meant to offload a small portion of the to the cloud and play from there and never from the physical disc which meant that the Xbox one would never really have to use its own hardware power to play the games. and with the the capabilities of the cloud, PC like visuals are possible because of the hardware it would've been pushing the games (the cloud and not the Xbox one). so all of this is still possible with the hardware of the Xbox one, it just has to be implemented a different way from what it was originally planned. its a setback, yes. hut it doesn't stop the inevitable. this will only add to the brilliant plan that Microsoft has thought up. from the disc the games will be 720p to 900p and every now and then you might see a full 1080p game running from the disc. but from the cloud as originally planned all games will run at their highest fidelity. so the plan really hasn't changed much. its just been improved. so in actuality, the disc is still just a key because the game still has to upload to the cloud to install and from there is where the real magic will happen. but the addition is that games can now be played from the disc without the cloud and the use of internet. but the sacrifice for now is HD resolution. but in a few months that will all change and the Xbox one will be doing most if not all games in 1080p native. so don't worry, it will all make sense soon enough.

[Rhythmattic]

Keep drinking that Foolaid.

[4lc4pon3]

I am a PC gamer with a very high end gaming PC and a playstation fanboy but I am being honest here. I am not bashing any console as I do wish Microsoft the best of luck & I hope it does sell well.

But I do have to say that M$ shot themselves in the foot with this ESRAM crap. They should of just did what sony did and left out Kinect and used those EXTRA funds for a bit better hardware.

If people did not remember awhile back the Xbox

"Engineers stated that Microsoft did NOT focus on great graphics for the Xbox one They focused on the Entertainment side"

[blahblah123]

If it hasn't been obvious by the last two years, MS found out that Blu-Ray sold PS3s and Kinect sold 360s just like bowling sold Wiis. They figured, "Hey lets sell them movies and more Kinect, let's throw in a DirecTV remote for "Free" and call it a day.

After milking Gears of Duty for the past half decade, I'm thinking with the Titanfall exception, the MS brand managers see "hardcore" gaming as niche and not worth the investment. If you notice, the only two series they back to the hills are Halo and Forza. Sony was a joke in 2007 but now they have a list of reliable studios and IP to mine for years.

A big problem with their strategy lies in the fact, very few people actually enjoy cable company services, streaming video is destroying online stores, Wii sold like gangbusters but nobody buys the sequel. So for all those people who already bought a 360 Kinect last year, it's a hard sell to have them shell out more for a box that is nearly three times the price and does almost nothing better than Dance Central from last year.

What I find funniest of all, is MS bought the Kinect tech and then Apple went and just bought up the team who came up with it. These guys in Redmond can't see any further than last Tuesday. The eSRAM isn't even the start of Microsoft's problems.

[TristanPR77]

I knew the xbone is the inferior console but after reading that article I understand it is even more inferior than I thought. The consoles haven't launched yet and we are seeing the different in powerful between the 2.

[CC-Tron]

FUD.

[assdan]

It's because it can't supply enough bandwidth to do MSAA at higher than 720p well, so everything needs to be a downgraded resolution. Even crytek says it's hard to use. And I'd take their word for it, considering them and dice are the best programmers in the business.

[DoubleM70]

They didn't say it was hard to use. They said they had to use it to speed up RYSE.

"We put our most accessed render targets like the G-Buffer targets into ESRAM. Writing to ESRAM yields a considerable speed-up. While 32MB may not be enough to use something like MSAA to the fullest, with a smart memory management strategy it is possible to deal with that."

http://www.dualshockers.com...

[assdan]

"While 32mb may not be enough to use msaa to its fullest, with a smart memory management strategy it is possibly to deal with." That sounds like it took a lot of hat tricks to make it usable, aka hard to use.

[bligmerk]

More and more hardware details coming out just before launch and more and more rumors being confirmed.

Been telling gamers a long time the XBone system architecture is a bog standard PC, even uses a South Bridge. This is where MS made their huge mistake with XBone, thinking what the gaming market wanted was a low-end, entry level gaming PC that had multimedia capability. The system architecture uses fragmented memory with slower RAM. Its got 3 operating systems. The AMD conference is probably going to show the PSU APU not only has a full generation better GPU but a faster CPU. The PS4 system architecture is not a bog standard PC architecture. It has continguous memory that is faster. It has one OS, a game OS that has become a powerful multimedia OS, and its pretty tightly written for networking. Could go on and on, this is where the fork in the road begins, to the left, the XBone going down, down, down, and to the right, the PS4 going up, up, up.

[kakashi81]

I heard that MS could have put 16MBs more, but can't find the link.

[DoubleM70]

ESRAM + BALANCE= PROFIT.

Microsoft is going to make a profit right off the bat with the hardware. The devs will eventually come to grips with the ESRAM within 1year. Sony is taking a $60 hit for that raw power guys. Dont' forget to buy tons of software and accesories for Sony.

[cyhm3112]

well, it could only happen if people are as stupid as you and buy the xbone

[DoubleM70]

So personal attack and calling people stupid. Just because I rather game on both platforms than to just buy one. Your an ass and would rather have one stagnant platform.

[BOLO]

XBOT + DENIAL = PATHETIC

Microsoft can only make a profit if one buys the Xbone. I'm guessing you forgot about that fancy CCTV tracking device called Kinect. That is sure to take from profit margins.

[DoubleM70]

Right and the millions of people that will buy The Xbox 1 is in denial. Yeah right You fanboys are pathetic. Everybody have their personal opinion and have the right to buy what they want.

[mochachino]

At this point it doesn't even matter for me, every single person I know is getting a PS4, even I wanted xbone more I'd be stuck playing online with strangers. There is no other choice but the PS4 now.

MS messed up and I don't feel bad for them, I had a 360 this gen and all MS showed me is that they may be the cheapest most nickel and diming big corp in existence. I had 5 360s each replacement worse than the last, they spent more in shipping me useless refirbs than the manufacturing cost of giving me brand new console.

Also, How does one justify putting Youtube, Netflix and their OWN internet browser behind a pay wall. They've lost so much goodwill for cheap immediate gains and now it's biting them in the ass.

[Themba76]

lucky you wish i had friends like yours most of mine are getting xbone. but hey i don't give a crap if all of them get xbone im going ps4 no matter what.

[WMANUW]

LOL

[rbluetank]

this is a very good tech video. I like all the information that was put forth.

[ATiElite]

Lots of Tech Talk and good info in this video which is good

But the BOTTOM LINE:

The XB1 has a WEAKER GPU than the PS4 which in REALITY is the ONLY reason the XB1 can NOT achieve 1080p 60fps while the PS4 with a more POWERFUL GPU can.

Esram in the XB1 was to Boost the XB1 Multi tasking performance speed and NOT it's resolution.

Resolution all boils down to GPU POWER and the XB1's HD7600 GPU does NOT have the MUSCLE to do 1080p 60fps like PS4's HD7850 GPU.

XB1 GPU = HD7790m
PS4 GPU = HD7870m

*M because these are Mobile variants and not full fledged Desktop parts.

End of Story as far as resolution goes.

XB1 should Multitask like a BOSS
PS4 will do 1080p 60fps like a Champ.

XB1 can do 1080p 60fps but you would have to turn down the eye Candy a lot in games and that would really Hurt in comparison videos.

So therefore XB1 keeps eye candy but at 720p, same effects but just lower resolution and framerate.

But 1080p looks so much better.

Example: 2007 Nvidia 8800 GT had 512MB GDDR3 can run Crysis 1080p 30fps High settings

Ram only really comes into play when your doing Multi-Monitor set-ups 1440p and higher Resolution which is why so many PC GPU's are Now 3GB because more Gamers are using multi-monitors 1440p 1600p and soon 4K.

Like I said XB1 could have 8GB GDDR5 but it's WEAK HD7790 GPU is the PROBLEM

[imt558]

Little correction for that 7870m. From one article :

The design of the Radeon 7800M series has its roots to the Cape Verde chip as found, for example, on the desktop Radeon HD 7770 with 640 1D shader cores and 40 texture units. However it has a core clock of only 800 MHz versus the 1000 MHz of the HD 7770. As a result, general performance of the HD 7870M is expected to lie somewhere between the 7750 and 7770 desktop Radeon cards.

PS4 GPU is equivalent between HD7850 and HD7870 because 1.84 TF, 32 ROP's, 18 CU's etc...

[ATiElite]

Great point!

I put M because the PS4 PSU is 250 watts and NOt the 550 watt PSU recommended for a standard HD7870

also the PS4 gpu is custom but is kinda equal to a HD7850/HD7870

SO the M kinda represents the lower watts that the PS4 will be using, lower Watts = less power.

BUT your POINT is VERY VALID! Good Post

[mmj]

Well said, bubble for you.

It's good to see others haven't fallen for the smoke and mirrors tactic of pointing the blame solely at the feet of the ESRAM and the deception that things will improve.

[bungahead]

Just buy both (like me) and enjoy. End of discussion. If not, get a better job. You getting beat!

[ONI5]

This just further make me think that the COD and Battlefield difference was from the developers not wanting to use alternate methods to get the game running correctly and just opting for the 720p notch to save time.

[jspillen]

Great article. Thanks.

[cyhm3112]

The next gen will teach both Nintendo and MS powerful hardware are necessary to win, not kinect and a controller with a display.

[Platinum_k]

... still leaves me wondering why people would simply settle for an Xbox1 rather than picking a PS4.

Playstation FTW!

[S2Killinit]

All this makes me excited for the PS4. I'm sure the xbone is going to be just fine though, I mean I personally want the best graphics possible for my games but I'm sure xbone's games will look good as well.

[Sh0ckWav3]

both of these next console suck when it comes to graphics, I cant understand why are we still seeing pop-ups, tearing, where are the fully destructible environments?

[JohnnyRico305]

I'm happy for everyone getting a PS4. I really am. But at the end of the day arguing over sales figures and who has the best graphics doesn't matter. We all are gamers and we should enjoy or hobby as just that. A hobby. Not some pathetic excuse to put down someone else for their choice in hardware. I feel sorry for most of you arguing over this stupid console war. It shows just how petty, insecure and childish some gamers can be. I get it. You like what you like. So be it, but don't put someone else down for making a different choice than you. Forget loyalty to a company. Lets have loyalty to one another and share stories of the great experiences we will be having this coming generation. We need to come together and stand as one so these companies will continue to push themselves for our money. Yes Microsoft made some mistakes. So will Sony. Neither is better than the other. Its about money to each of them. They could care less about you as an individual. Its an illusion put forth to increase sales and profitability. Money is all these companies care about. You're a fool if you think otherwise. All im saying is we as gamers are a culture that should be remembered by ushering in a new form of art and celebrating the thing that makes us happy. GAMING!!!!!

[Thomaticus]

I think MS used this cheaper ram because they know that companies will lessen their games to ensure that their version is identical to the other console versions of games. Why spend money on extra or higher quality ram when your consumers will gladly pay for whatever you put in the box. It's really important sony ensures that games released on their console are optimized appropriately. If it looks better or runs better than the Xbox one version then so be it. When the original Xbox was released all of their games looked better than ps2. They hd the more powerful console and their games were optimized for their system.

[corroios]

Very good article. Now i understand, more or less, the xbox one problem with FHD.

I just want to know what does CU (compute)????

[Mister_G]

Compute Unit

[DJ]

I watched the video all the way through, and it's like this:

ESRAM's issue is that it's supposed to be used for GPU functions like texturing and rendering, but is very small and has to be manually flushed. Its sole existence is to make up for the slow DDR3 ram. Xbox One was designed as an Applications device, while PS4 was designed as a gaming device. DDR3 is cheaper, so Microsoft opted for that memory.

GDDR5 runs anywhere from 30~90% faster. So not only is the GPU in PS4 at a big advantage, the entire system runs faster than Xbox One and it's much easier to develop for.

With a few years of development time, Xbox One games will improve. But then PS4 developers will start utilizing Compute (where the GPU offloads work from the CPU). PS4 has more Compute units than Xbox One, and utilizing Compute on Xbox One will put a toll on the DDR3 bandwidth.

PS4 games will run at a much higher resolution and framerate at launch. Xbox One will catch up slightly as the ESRAM is used more effectively. But then a few years later, PS4 games will also look and perform significantly better again.

The narrator emphasizes that games will still be fun across both platforms. This is just information for people that care about which console will have the best looking and best performing games.

http://forums.xbox.com/xbox...

[BobBelcher]

you get a 'bubble up' for this.

[corroios]

Can anyone explain more about the Compute Unit and why that is the future of gaming? The importance? benefits? will allow more stuff on screen? Anyone?

[inspirated]

It's basically like a simplified CPU. There are 12 in the Xbox One and 18 in the PS4. It is very powerful for running programs split as small jobs in parallel, much better than a traditional CPU for certain tasks. At the moment it is envisaged that it will be used to improve AI, physics, compression/decompression, audio ray tracing (providing better sound based on the environment), and so on.

[inspirated]

Article is WRONG.

It's BITS per pixel, not BYTES!

Most computer graphics at the moment are 24bpp = 3 BYTES per pixel, one byte each for red, green, blue, producing ~16.7 million colors.

So for example the memory needed fo 24 bit color is 5.93MB, not 47.46MB!

Still, there's not enough ESRAM but it's better than what the article states.

[SugarSoSweet]

the Xbox is a terrible designed system

[Rhythmattic]

Its not terribly Designed......

its what MS wanted... A "balanced" Entertainment System. (most applicable in the US)

However, It is a terribly designed "Gaming" system.

[Tzuno]

Well is easy to make money with cheap hardware sold at 400$ fooling people. The question is how smart you are as a buyer?

[LordMaim]

Its also easy to make money by selling a powerful system for a fair price like the PS4, especially when your direct competition is a more expensive system that isn't as powerful, and has memory dedicated to Kinect features you probably don't want.

Are you smart enough as a buyer to pay $100 less for a significantly more powerful system?

[CEOSteveBallmer]

i don't get your point. yep $400 for a stronger console vs. an expensive console with inferior hardware. you don't need to be smart to choose which is better. even a grade school kid will know what to buy. when talking about specs. but i guess you will also say, the games matter.

[Tzuno]

yes the games matter but as a inferior hardware the price needs to be lower. At least with lower price people will accept the system as it is. Look at Nintendo they choose to go cheap and where are they now?

[LordMaim]

The only inferior hardware here comes with a Kinect attachment.

[GoPanthers999]

This is a great explanation. I still plan to buy an X1 based on their exclusive games, love Halo. But i understand that it is inferior to PS4 and were it not for a few game franchises and features I would buy a PS4.

[marcuspetre]

im shitting xbox one launch day now 1st resolution issues and games been harder to develop for :(

[CEOSteveBallmer]

Still many people defend and justify ESRAM i see. even if the truth is out about BF4 and COD ghost being 720p native on xbone and 1080p on PS4 still the defense force is doing all they can. Is it so hard to accept that PS4 has better hardware?? Many people still believe thats not the case.

[mightyhokie]

Interesting breakdown, but flawed. Like he said about using old tech (his steam engine analogy) he has forgotten about the progression of programming. I say this because the PS3 was supposed to have better graphics than the 360 but I have yet to see it. Then again, that problem is because Sony made it so tough on developers to use their wonky memory set up. But according to this guy MS is sort of handing developers the same kind of problem so that could be bad for MS in the long run.
Personally I believe that the graphics will all end up being the same in the long run just like it is now. I think the argument of which system to get is really going to come down to this: Sony fanboys will choose the PS4 no matter what, MS fanboys will go with X1 no matter what, and for everyone else its going to be 'do you use your console for entertainment and watching tv and all that or not...if so you will be attracted to X1 (like me) and if not then you will be drawn to the PS4 (which i hope to get eventually as well).
There! I just solved nothing! =D

[Mexxan]

You've got to be kidding me. Anybody that states the Ps3 and 360 are on par with each other with what the 3 has produced this year must be using shit for facewash and getting a whole load in their eyes.

No, not a fanboy - I'm getting both on release.

[lawgone]

Mexxan, I'm also getting both systems but I don't agree with your assertion that PS3 exclusives were leaps and bounds above XB360. That's really a matter of personal opinion. Yes, yes "Last of Us" looks nice but it doesn't look any better than things I've seen on XB360. Graphically, last gen was a draw.

[mightyhokie]

Ahhh you caught me! You are right. The PS3 was so graphically superior to the Xbox 360 that they needed to release a newer more powerful version to replace it.

Seriously though, you rude asshole, if you think there was so much of a difference YOU are the one washing your face with shit and getting a whole load in your eyes.

And you must have a pretty nice job to run out and afford a thousand dollars worth of consoles on launch day, not to mention at least $120 for one game for each. Enjoy either living in your parents basement or blathering more lies. Next time try and not make it personal.

[Javinator]

Forza running at 1080 on x1, so is nba 2k14, and recently announced ufc '14 also 1080p on x1.
Not the console to blame, the developers are.

[mightyhokie]

I agree. It is going to come down to the developers figuring it out. Maybe it is tougher to get the fidelity through the X1 than the PS4, I wouldn't know I'm not a developer. I do remember the Sony fanboys blaming developers when they were screwing up PS3 games because Sony had their triple core stuff that made it tougher than developing on the 360. In the end they all ended up the same.

[BABY-JEDI]

There is a system developer @ MS right now running for his life. I don't think MS can turn this one around, but I hope they can for competition sake.

[jek7]

bu bu but xbox one have cloud processing that makes it 3 times more powerful!

[bungahead]

Buy both, suck it! Butthurt nerds.

[ziggurcat]

remember when xbox fanboys argued that there weren't any bottlenecks on xbone because of esram?

funny how it turns out to be the thing that bottlenecks the whole system...

[lawgone]

FACT #1: We won't really know what differences this translates to for a couple more years.
FACT #2: Both will have great games.
FACT #3: I'll be getting both :)

[mmj]

Xbox One does NOT have the GPU power to match PS4, the only games likely to be 1080P are exclusive games with less advanced graphical engines (eg. Forza 5).

The ESRAM is there to boost the DDR3 bandwidth, it cannot make the less powerful GPU in Xbox One render more graphics than it is capable of. Xbox One could have twice the memory bandwidth of PS4 and no complicated ESRAM and it would still be BOTTLENECKED by the GPU.

GPU v GPU

PS4: 32 render pipelines
Xbox: 16 render pipelines

PS4: 18 compute units
Xbox: 12 compute units

FLOPS
PS4: 1.84 teraflops
Xbox: 1.25 teraflops

FILLRATE
PS4: 25.6 Gpixel/s
Xbox: 12.8 Gpixel/s

'FILLRATE' refers to how many pixels per second a GPU can fill.

HELLO???????????????????? DID YOU HEAR THAT LAST BIT? PS4 GPU CAN FILL TWICE AS MANY MORE PIXELS PER SECOND!!!

I can't believe people are still GULLIBLE enough to believe this "it's all because of the ESRAM" bullshit, or is it just denial?

[ATiElite]

Bubbles+ Well Said

Dude you are my HERO! Someone else finally gets it!

You understand the real aspects of the hardware and you produced FACTS.

No fanboy CRAP just PURE FACTS!

great post