DSOGaming writes: "Earlier yesterday, John Carmack shared his thoughts on AMD’s Mantle. During Nvidia’s Montreal event, Carmack claimed that although he would be tempted to use Mantle, he would not do such a thing at this point. Carmack claimed that it’s not stupid – for AMD – to attempt something like that, however he believed that Sony and Microsoft would not embrace it. But why is Carmack against this new API?"
businessinsider writes: "His exit came on Friday, the people said. Carmack, who has been openly critical of Meta's advancements in AR and VR, core to its metaverse ambitions, posted to the company's internal Workplace forum about his decision to leave."
I hope he starts up another new company and can get another new game engine on the market too.
He's apparently focusing on AGI, Artificial General Intelligence, AKA trying to get AI to be sentient. Which according to Ray Kurzweil could happen by 2029.
Then I need to look more into this because it sounds like the backbone tech I need to make Projekt Monika a reality.
AI advances are really starting to open my eyes to us not even having scratched the surface. But with the field itself growing exponentially and stuff I'd never considered before like putting AI to work finding cures for major diseases - it's exciting but also kinda scary tbh.
More on topic - sentient AI. Creating a digital soul so to speak. Spooky in a what have we done and is it good or bad kind of way.
He is like: "Im done with F#@#$%NG nonsense, pff Metaverse da funk I was thinking!!, Im out!! :D"
Yeah he put a smile in his face too in the end.
I hope he goes back to traditional games.
VR gaming is a flop and the Metaverse has (fortunately) completely failed to take off.
VR has much more potential than flat screen games. Just need to tap the right market and fund AAA development. Meta is a rotten company though so good to see him leave.
That's where it becomes a catch-22 problem though. Very few companies (if any) are going to spend AAA amounts of dollars on VR if the market isn't there - and the market isn't there.
If it was the future of gaming we'd see the big publishers getting involved - and basically none of them are.
Agree on Meta 100% - horrible company and I really do hope FB (and social media) dies some day soon.
There will never be AAA games until VR sells at the rate of mainstream consoles. Understand that even if Sony do sell 3.5 million VR in the next 2 or 3 years like they hope, that isn't ever going to get any commitments for AAA budget. No investor would ever sign off on that.
The adoption has been terrible and the market basically non-existent as a result of that.
We're now 10 years into PC VR gaming, 6 years into console VR gaming and it just hasn't taken off - the reality is, most consumers don't care for it.
Even with a huge install base like the PS4, only a few million adopted it, about 3-4%.
He only thinks it in his mind. Because Microsoft isn't offering "high fidelity VR." Only Sony is offering "high fidelity VR" because they actually deliver.
I just read today that Honda is moving forward in using VR and has vehicles that were built in VR without an actual real vehicle.
Orchard just doesn't know any better. He claims he's a PlayStation fan but doesn't want Sony to succeed in growing the VR market. But he's okay with Microsoft buying up the industry and game pass. Tell you where his mind is actually at. Or he has investment in it.
But Carmack leaving is only that he was frustrated with higher ups. But he's very interested in AI. And that's a good field of investment too.
If any of the big 3 had sales were like VR for their console, they would fold like the Saturn. Right now VR is nothing more then a high priced peripheral and no one should expect AAA for it.
By the way , I am one who would like to see VR succeed, but it has a long way to go before that ever happens.
@Apocalypse
"Only Sony is offering "high fidelity VR" because they actually deliver."
And the reality is, from what we've seen thus far, the vast majority, about 97% of Sony customers don't care about it in the slightest. They can't even sell out of PSVR2 devices, which are supposedly in short supply. Better to just invest in traditional experiences instead.
"I just read today that Honda is moving forward in using VR and has vehicles that were built in VR without an actual real vehicle."
Yes. And that helps gaming how? I've said time and time again that AR/VR is great for enterprise. Just not great for gaming.
The lack of customers, lack of customer interest, and lack of AAA game companies investing & AAA game experiences being crafted says everything we need to know about the state and future of gaming VR.
When uncle philly announced true vr experience and demoed fallout 4 in one x, some xboys sings different tune..
'Just not great for gaming.'.
That's your heavily biased opinion. You are in every VR thread trying to project your doom and gloom. Why?
There are many genres where VR is at least equal to or better than flat. VR in a driving game destroys the flat experience.
FPS, horror games, even Tetris is better in VR.
You speak about AAA as if it's the only consideration, moving goalposts.
Capcom.
Are they not a AAA publisher?
Is RE4 not a AAA game? RE7? RE8?
The Metaverse is one big flop but VR gaming on its own still has steam and growth potential. Remember Mark and his Meta wants you to associate gaming with the meta verse the gaming industry and its large number of users has the capacity to sway the opinion of the mass market.
Incidentally, Meta is haemorrhaging money and expertise that’s what this article is highlighting.
See, the problem orchard is that you see what you want to see. Sony sold PSVR at profit. They made money on software. They made money on a 10 year old peripheral. Yeah. It didn't sell 100 million. How many games sell bucket loads when they cost almost 10 times less than PSVR was at launch? That's why the new headset is coming. Before, there was no console VR. There is now. To grow the market, you must keep pushing and not be afraid like Microsoft. Facebook, HTC, ByteDance, Varjo, Valve, Sony, etc are growing the gaming market. Did flat gaming sell millions overnight? No. It took time. Just like any other product. Fads fade. VR is not a fad because it has potential in many areas. Sony doesn't want PS VR 2 to be a Kinect. A fad. Millions on advertising but no substance. It's why PS Move still exists and works on PS5. And Kinect is dead. Move had substance. PSVR had substance. Which is why PS VR 2 exists.
Honda is an example of VR entering other sectors. It's fairly obvious that it "ain't no 3D TV." Bugatti also uses VR as well as other car manufacturers. VR is here to stay. I know it hurts you that it's growing bedsides flat gaming being successful too. Just like mobile.
You just like to lie to yourself and others. VR is in education, in construction, in the automotive industry, medicine, real estate, music.... AND GAMING. The market wasn't there. Now it's here and it's growing in every sector besides gaming. But you want it to jump out there immediately like some viral video or fad. That's not how it works.
Chances are, you developed something, because you call yourself a developer. And no one wanted your product. So you're projecting.But there are other companies and developers who are successful in making VR work. You just sucked at it.
You claim Sony isn't selling out on pre-orders. But you don't even know what numbers they have allocated. Or how many they are producing to meet demand. You just pull it out from you know where and lie to everyone that Sony is failing. Sony has said they will have headsets for launch and not have to worry about production. What do you have that goes against Sony's statements on the matter? Absolutely nothing. Put up your facts against Sony's production lines?
But tell us. What software you made for VR that failed so that we all can know where your mindset is?
@Knush You just highlighted the problem perfectly - the only AAA taking part in console VR is Capcom. Where is COD VR? Battlefield VR, GTA VR? All the big pubs are skipping on it because they don’t believe in its future - if they did they’d be investing in it now.
@Apocalyspe At the time I thought MS were insane for not getting into VR, but looking back on it, given where we are now, that seems like a very smart decision.
Honda making VR for car showrooms or whatever means nothing for gaming. The vast majority of gamers - PS gamers included - don’t care in the slightest about VR. The numbers show that.
I’ve never worked on a VR game nor do I want to. The market being non-existent means salaries are substantially lower when compared to AAA salaries. I wouldn’t take the pay cut - I’ve been in AAA since graduating college, and I intend to keep it that way.
But that’s also the good point of being a developer, ultimately it doesn’t really matter to me if the game sells well or poorly - I still get paid the same at the end of the day.
It’s funny that you mention Kinect because I consider the Kinect a failure too - but it still had 4x the sales of PSVR and a way higher attach rate.
We are supposedly still in the tail end of a chip shortage, so clearly we would expect a new device like PSVR to sell out - Sony themselves were too or they wouldn’t have done invites to get one initially - they thought it was going to be difficult for people to get one (so did many on here) but when it turned out it wasn’t they opened it up to everyone.
Clearly it isn’t moving as many units as they’d anticipated.
Come talk to me when we’re all sitting in our living rooms with VR headsets on and the attach rate is so high they ship it in the box as the default controller method - so I guess I won’t ever be hearing from you again :p
@Orchard
'the only AAA taking part in console VR is Capcom'.
No, EA and Ubisoft have VR games on console.
https://www.ea.com/games/f1...
Problem with VR is that it hasn't have legs. Everything from mevement, enemies, pacing, puzzles has to take that into equation.
Replies(2)I agree with you. I remember when Second Life was as the dogs bollocks and big business had store fronts or ambassador land parcels but soon discovered that it was pie in the sky. Second Life is still operational but only frequented by a stagnant population of people who were with it since it’s launch. New people sign up to try it out but tend to not stay. People want to browse the internet or use it to play games not live in it.
"And yet, you can provide me no evidence to the contrary."
Compare sales of gen 1 VR headsets with sales of gen 1 home consoles.
One of if not, the best game engine developer in the world. I hope he gets back into developing game engines.
They need to stick VR back in RnD departments everywhere that or let the porn industry lead the way like everything else that's been introduced then brought to mass market after porn made it a thing lmfao
Yea VR has that virt-a-mate thing which seems to be quite popular with adult Quest 2 owners, but i mean there is Half Life Alyx, few other things.. nothing huge after those so far.
Legendary developer John Carmack reacted to the acquisition of Bethesda and ID Software's parent company ZeniMax Media by Microsoft:
"Great! I think Microsoft has been a good parent company for gaming IPs, and they don’t have a grudge against me, so maybe I will be able to re engage with some of my old titles."
John Carmack has always innovated game technology. Carmack having access to a Microsoft R&D budget can be very bad for the competition. Plus Jim Keller is out there too. Phil get on both of those task.
Yea, he's more interested in making gamer's head and hands move vigorously.
He left the VR world to focus on AI, actually. We need him now more than ever, in that case.
Because it doesn't entirely depend on him. He always had a good relationship with Microsoft (rare given his personality) so if he's given a good project, that'd be great news. I remember he was the first guy who pushed streaming assets directly from the HDD in games with Rage. Direct Storage/XVA guys would be happy to have him showing stuff off.
Geniuses often have issues dealing with people that don't have their vision. It can be hard to believe that things that are obvious to them aren't just as obvious to you. It's actually a compliment to you and shows that they don't see themselves as special. Unfortunately, their vision IS special.
Indeed. He actually foresaw what's going on now with consoles and SSDs and that was in 2009 (when he first shared his vision)
Give him a damn Quake game with awesome visuals. The fanbase will be glad.
This is so annoying that this much welcomed news comes AFTER Facebook deleted their VR for everyone not gullible enough to give away their whole privacy for pennies.
I would be so happy if this news happened a few months ago. Now I couldn't care less.
PlayStationing writes: "A few days ago Epic Games released the demo called Lumen which was running on it's new Unreal Engine 5 on PlayStation 5. Tim Sweeney went on to explain on Twitter why the SSD mattered so much in the PS5. Now, industry legend John Carmack, formerly of id Software and now Oculus VR, has agreed."
“It looks like Cerny has taken the PS5 in a unique direction that PCs may not be able to emulate for a few years it seems.”
Sony Worldwide Studios are going to do amazing things with PS5. Can’t wait!
Does seem to make a huge difference have a developer lead on the design of the console. I think Cerny learned a lot from PS4 design issues and that's why PS5 has gone in such a different direction.
I don't get that quote from the article, not at all what Carmack is implying in his response and correction toward Tim Sweeney. Lol.
i was telling all folks out there that PS5 has some futureproof tech, and i like that they dont play it too safe at every gen. Some innovation is always cool, and not only on the CPU because tech becomes irrelevant and obsolete at some point.
i don’t see your quote in the article, or in any of his tweets. Can you provide a link to your quote
@Mr_Writer85
1) PS4 Pro's fan ran loud as hell to keep the system cool (Cerny himself publicly admitted this was an issue)
2) PS4 Pro not being able to run HDR games and Chroma 4:4:4 at the same time, preventing you from experiencing a full spectrum of colors while playing in HDR.
If Sony can fix these issues with the PS5....all the credit in the world to them.
Carmack... i hear he is all the rage and has caused a quake or two in the industry. Nice to see he all positive about next gen instead of all doom and gloom.
Funny Cerny is seen as the Messiah when AMD, nVidia, and MS have been working on this tech for years and GPU manufactures specifically worked on getting their GPUs access to SSD.
MS working on this tech for years? You mean trying to force direct X down everyone's throat for decades.
@Eonjay ... this has to be my favourite quote :D
Xbox works harder.
PS5 works smarter.
Lol that is the best translation. No matter how good your hardware is. In the end its talent/people that matters the most. Sony has the peopl/talent
@logicwins PS4 Pro can render HDR at 4:4:4 chroma subsampling just fine, but the HDMI 2.0 spec doesn't support 4:4:4 YUV color resolution at 4k60fps. Any movie or video you've ever seen in HDR was delivered at 4:2:0 chroma sub-sampling. I produce HDR videos for a living. Many HDR TVs don't support 4:4:4 either since they only have HDMI 2.0.
4:4:4 is increasing the chroma sub-sampling resolution, it isn't reducing the number of colors that can be achieved. You'll get a slightly sharper, purer looking image at 4:4:4, but every DVD, TV show, Blu-Ray, Netflix, etc video you've ever seen, even HDR, is all produced at 4:2:0. Our eyes can't usually distinguish between the two, which is why there isn't a huge push to increase it vs. resolution, dynamic range, or bit depth.
@logic
But how do developers have influence on the design of the actual console?
When he mentioned developers I thought he was talking about the architecture design of the PS4. Not the actual console.
As far as I'm aware developers found the PS4 easy to use. I wasn't aware of any issues (unlike the Cell)
I may have misread what he meant.
@Kribwalker
“i don’t see your quote in the article, or in any of his tweets. Can you provide a link to your quote“
@frostypants
“Why are you inventing quotes? C'mon now.”
https://ibb.co/1n9rq8d
@eonjay
"Xbox works harder.
PS5 works smarter.
Expect great results across the board."
I think you have it backwards. The PS4 is working harder that's why it only reach a variable 10.28 tflops in boost mode. It's since it's a boost mode it probably can't run that speed long without overstressing the system and overheating . The normal non boost tflops level is lower.
So, the PS5 is working harder and is still behind the XSX non boosted non variable 12 TFLOPS .
The PS5 is like a high strung Turbo 4 cylinder against the more powerful XSX V8 with effortless power .
I really think Sony add boost mode after see XSX specs because they were caught off guard.
“The PS5 is like a high strung Turbo 4 cylinder against the more powerful XSX V8 with effortless power.”
XSX is a V8 with no gas. Gas being exclusives.
PS5 exclusives will be on another level, especially considering they don’t have to worry about last gen consoles with ancient CPUs and slow as molasses HDD.
I know two parties out there who will say he's lying lmao. I wouldn't be surprised if he get threats.
@anubusgold
Exactly...
It would've been great though had they had the ssd technology back then ;)
Do you even realize that with such transfer speeds, megatextures would've taken a lot of load off the GPU at the cost of space??
Uncompressed texture was a novel idea that was ahead of it's time...
Now it's time to play smart B)
You're on some secret sauce if you keep being so petty to copy/paste the same message in every article without any coherent statement to disprove the benefits.
Oh boy captainhenry in the stage of denial. He won’t even listen to actual developers. 🤣
@sinspirit Pc can use a pcie expansion card and raid two 1 tb 4.0 drives and be faster than ps 5. Also SSD makers just announced that the second gen pci 4.0 drives will soon come out and im pretty sure they will be faster than the 4.9 speed drives we had for a whole year on x570 boards there are 61 SSD drives on newegg to chose from now that are pcie 4.0 and have speeds between 4.8 and 5.0..
Agreed it’s gonna sting some. He’s basically telling us the SSD is super fast at moving data, but the “GPU Driver” also known as the GPU, still dominates. Meaning, it doesn’t matter how fast the ssd is, if the gpu can’t keep up 🤷
That's not what he's saying. The GPU is hardware the GPU driver is the software that tells the GPU how to process the data.
@caddytrek
the GPU driver (software API) writes directly to the feature-set and capabilities of the GPU. A good example of this would be PS5's primitive shaders (RDNA 1.0 and slower ) Vs Series X Mesh Shaders (RDNA 2.0 feature and Faster) or Direct X Raytracing (Exclusive to DX12 Ultimate and not on PS5 GPU) as well as VRS ( Xbox Exclusive feature) so while you’re technically correct that GPU driver refers to the software powering the GPU, it's more true that the GPU driver only works to the feature-set of the GPU itself - and if the GPU doesn't have these efficiency features then the driver cannot write to them therefore back to square 1 ( The PS5 GPU works Slower)
You said this.
but the “GPU Driver” also known as the GPU
Then you agreed with me the GPU is the hardware and the driver is the software, thus confirming your original statement was wrong.
How humble of you to admit you're wrong.
The GPU reads data from RAM which is where the SSD puts the data. The SSD doesn't load information into the GPU it loads information into the RAM.
And I feel like I should point out that consoles use a shared pool of memory so both the CPU and the GPU read from the RAM so there is zero disadvantage to being able to fill RAM as fast as you can.
'it doesn’t matter how fast the ssd is, if the gpu can’t keep up'
Haha I heard everything.
You can try all you want but the cat s out of the bag. The demo was running in real time on PS5 and it looks amazing.
CoinOrc
What am I supposed to see in that?
If the SSD doesn't put data into ram then what is RAM for?
The RAM stores the textures and other data that the CPU and GPU then process. That's how the computational chain works.
@GamingTomarow
"If the SSD doesn't put data into ram then what is RAM for?"
Well, the SSD has RAM-like capability but that's limited. Current RAM is still so much faster that it's beneficial to keep using it. But, with this level of speed and throughput throughout the system, it can act like RAM for certain cases. Not viable replacement across the board. One step at a time.
@caddytrek
He also thinks that VRS is an XBox exclusive feature and goes out his way to state it 🤨
Perhaps that is why MS didn't bother to use a faster SSD, their GPU can't keep up anyway due to all kinds of bottlenecks that Sony solved...
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And your post below is full of nonsense!
- RDNA 1 primitive shaders, really?
- Direct X Raytracing is not on the GPU in the XSX either since that is a software thing...
- VRS is Xbox exclusive feature? oh really?
Got any sources for all these very bold claims?
PS5 GPU is RDNA2 as confirmed by Lisa Siu, hardware RT features DX RT is using are RDNA2 as well, so is VRS as far as I know. So claiming all these things while there's evidence against one and when there's absolutely no evidence for some others is silly and makes you come across as a silly fanboy...
Primitive shaders are the same thing as mesh shaders.... you dont know which is faster or slower we have no comparisons other than the shader count, which would allow more of it to be used not speed anything up... also ps5s gpu works faster than the xboxs not the other way round, you only have to look at clock speeds to see that.
Doesn't matter how fast the GPU is if the amount of assets can't feed it. That's more relevant, because having a better GPU can be overcome by this scaling thing that Xbox fans seem to think is a magic key for everything. A GPU is more limited by available memory(assets) than a weaker GPU is limited when given access to virtually infinite assets when they're needed.
"the GPU driver (software API) writes directly to the feature-set and capabilities of the GPU"
No. The GPU driver, which is a hardware API, is an interface to couple the written code to the machine code of the GPU driver itself. It's just a set of codes which tells the compiler how to handle a function, and makes sure processes go to the hardware. It can either be to something like DirectX on PC, which writes it to an OS level, which then gets translated to the hardware, or have the code go directly to the hardware.
A GPU driver in a console is part of the overall SDK, and simply allows a game engine to access what is generally low level hardware so the developer doesn't have to do it directly. Once a game is built on console, the driver has no function. On PC, the driver also has no function except to tell the software to connect to whatever OS layer exists to handle the processing commands.
@aenea
1. AMD PlayStation docs have referred only to primitive shaders (RDNA 1.0) 2. Direct X Ray Tracing is a component of Direct X (owned by Microsoft ) PlayStation uses Open GL so no Direct X RT. 3. VRS is patented and owned by Microsoft - it is only present under Direct X . Lisa Sui posted about PlayStation 5 RDNA 2.0 but when she did she put the laughing emoji
@aenea
https://i.postimg.cc/c4x58h...
proof they are using primitive shaders (rdna 1 feature) and not mesh shaders (replaced primitive shaders in RDNA 2)
@krib
It says that primitive shaders were introduced with RDNA 1, it does not say that they removed them from RDNA 2, now does it? That no one has talked about anything else does not mean a darn thing. They also not talked about checkerboard rendering being inside the GPU like with the Pro but you can bet your butt that it is in there otherwise BC won't work so well ;)
So not talking about things is not proof that it isn't there. We just don't know yet, to spout nonsense like you do and make it look like they are facts is so gosh darn silly!
Raytracing is done in the GPU, RDNA 2 has RT, look it up, evidence everywhere, DX RT is just the software API MS made to talk to the GPU's RT features. Sony can make their own API for it and am sure they did.
Also PS systems do usually not use OpenGL, they have their own custom APIs.
They, MS, have a VRS patent, yes, but it's called "Variable Rate Shading Based On Temporal Reprojection" that is not VRS itself but another implementation of it.
Also AMD has VRS patents and it's a feature of...... wait a minute, we know this! RDNA2!
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It's so funny that with Sony if they don't talk about it it's proof that it's not in there, even tho MS did not mention certain things right away or some things not yet,like how many ACE's are in the XSX GPU? unknown, they haven't talked about it yet, so none then I suppose? Oh wait, nah, at least the same amount as the PS5 GPU, perhaps more, but if that were the case they would have made several tweets about it, they did not, that should tell you then that they do not have more than the PS5, etc.., etc.
It's all speculation, drawing conclusions with a fanboy hat on, and being regurgutated endlessly by the more fanatical fans.
-------
Funny also to see that the Xbox fans were finally content, they didn't do too many strange things, they knew they had the most powerful console of next gen, they were so happy! Then the presentation of MS which was gonna show the future of next gen gaming which was a major letdown, then followed by the UE5 demo running on a PS5 and wow, we are back to 2013!
Perhaps there is a hidden I/O block in the power brick? Or maybe I/O can be made faster using the power of the cloud? And that can then access the GPU instantly! Just like it can instantly absorb 100GB of data without needing to use any of the I/O in the system and it's restrictions!!!! /s
The headline is not what John Carmack is implying.
The war between MS and Sony is fought in a delusional battleground. That's right here.
If you read what he actually wrote. He actually still says the GPU is much more important...
If you can understand what he's talking about you would know that's not what he said.
@GamingTomarow
Except that's literally what he's saying.
"you can bypass kernel buffers on PC with unbuffered IO. The GPU driver overhead still dominates."
In fact, i actually understated it a bit. He used the word "DOMINATES". So yeah...
Ok, now without going to google explain what a kernel buffer is. Then explain what unbuffered IO means then explain the principals behind GPU driver overhead.
Then give us a short description of how the three factors interact to put the image on the monitor.
Man, it will not stop being funny to me that Zeref is a literal villain in the anime series he is from.
And which side is he on? Xbox.
It's just so perfect.
Without using Google.....
Kernel Buffer: An area of the kernel that keeps information about where data is stored on a particular storage medium....typically, and in this case, the hard drive.
Unbueffered I/O: I/O that gets read or written to the disc without being stored in a cache or temporary area of memory before going to or from a storage medium....typically, and in this case, the hard drive.
GPU driver overhead: Not really a specific term that can be defined for looking up on google, but this would be the amount of extra processes put on a GPU process. So, lets say that GPU has to draw a set of vertices. For the GPU, all that's really needed is that it receives the data necessary to write them, and the process, by which to do so. The GPU hardware controller will handle which processes to do that, when the OS or program sends them that information. The overhead comes in as the call is being made by the CPU. In the case of PC, the software will call the OS, which will then access the driver protocol, which will then interpret the hardware protocol, and then spit out for the CPU what hardware code is required to run the code. That is overheard that doesn't exist on consoles under normal circumstances because the game engines or API's allow the software to send that directly to the CPU, or in some cases the GPU, without going through those extra steps.
When Carmack said the GPU driver overhead still dominates, he's saying that on PC, it still has a negative effect on the process of getting the information directly from the storage medium, because despite being able to get that info faster on PC in the right set ups, it still has to go through the OS layer process.
In general, when you see the word, "overhead" included in this context, it's not being used as a positive. The only time "overhead" is a positive, is when it's exclusion is being talked about.
Mr Carmack doesn't reference GPU power or speed or anything of the sort. He's talking about GPU overhead. You know? A driver set that's handled by the CPU? Said overhead still being a factor in throughput, even after the jump in performance from a switch to an unbuffered (bypassing the Kernel) feed? ON PC?
Now go back to reading the comments. Not one comment here contains even a modicum of understanding. Nothing to do with PS5 or XSX. Yet the comments are all just painful fanboy BS.
So I guess you're right. It stings. Infact the comments don't just sting. They're downright painful!
Edit: Just had to change "Kerbal" to "kernel". Autocorrect FTFL!
In general, overhead is never talked about as a good thing in programming or hardware implementation. Only time it's used as a positive is when it's talked about as being removed. That whole low level debate at the start of the gen when console warriors were discussion Vulcan and DX12, and it using more low level functions, was basically a talk about which one removed the overheard better, as OGL and DX12 are both base API's that have a lot of overheard for PC, because of the disparity between different types of hardware configurations. They are necessary on PC, but not on consoles, so they take a different form to serve their primary purpose on consoles.
I've seen people calling Tim sweeney and liar and Cerney a liar now they have another guy to add to the list of professional liars who don't know their own jobs or industry
Better wait for multiplatform games on both platforms, then compare... to see which console has the biggest di*k.
Hmmm...Sweeny, and Carmack. Two of probably the top five most highly regarded game engine makers and visionaries in the gaming industry, and both of that class of weird genius that changes an industry through said genius, both say that the SSD is a big deal.
Should we take them at their word, or listen to those few who make software using the things those two guys came up with who say otherwise.
I'm torn, but looking forward to the spin that comes.
I suggest you read the full tweet. He goes on to say "the GPU overhead still dominates".
Glad to see even more affirmation from the dev community regarding the importance of PS5's SSD. But I'm ready to end all the tech-talk. It's time to start focusing on software!
Replies(26)I don't mind the tech talk. What's less useful is those that talk about it as if they understand even half of it. Carmack's quote is obviously misunderstood by some on here talking about it. He refutes Sweeny, but not in the way that they're implying, and they are talking as if the GPU overhead is a good thing.
What Carmack is saying that Sweeny is wrong that you can't bypass the I/O overhead(to which I think it's a matter of context and scope), but regardless of that, the driver on PC still can't access that data in a way that is expedient to the process of what is being shown. That last part is something that the PC SDK's will have to overcome through their low level implementation, and be allowed on an OS level. Something that MS will very likely be forced to implement in Windows more fully in the future if they want to bring their 1st party games to PC and still utilize the consoles SSD to the fullest. I would guess that MS is probably already looking into bypassing the OS layer more in their low level DX feature set. Question remains if they'll allow it outside of DX, as that could potentially cripple other API's from keeping up with DX performance in this regard.
You know more about this than I do, so I have a dumb question. Is the Steam OS still a thing and if so could it be used to utilize a PC SSD to the fullest--meaning comparable to the PS5? It's supposed to bypass the OS layer right? At least compared to windows?
It did away with some of the OS overhead, but it still existed. Unfortunately, there is no real practical way to do that on PC without accounting for every hardware combination. DirectX itself is designed specifically to do away with the need to worry about hardware configurations, and was a necessity when it released for games to move forward. That hasn't really changed, and likely never will on open platform PC.
Honestly rainslacker, I am so beyond sick of the tech discussions because 99% of the people discussing it do not have the first clue as to what they are talking about. They are simply mimicking what they've heard some YouTube personality or some random fanboys in their own echo chambers that fit their narrative have said. Either that or they dissect extreme out of context soundbites from the real experts and freaking run with it. Everyone wants to be an armchair developer. Me, I personally DO NOT CARE anymore. It was interesting at first, but now that we know the specs, it's time to move on for god's sake. At this point forward, I'm simply trusting my eyes. See game, like game (or don't like game)! I'm not standing at my TV with a magnifying glass every time a new game drops and counting pixels! Is it true 4K? Is it 1440p? Is it checkerboard? Is it 30fps? 60fps? 120fps? Damn, shoot me! I absolutely hate this tech-driven PC gamer mentality that has crept its way into the console space (when did this happen btw?).
It is tiresome. Sometimes people try to learn more than the basics, but I can agree that it's not something that's always productive. Many people don't care to learn if there is the slightest hint that it may be a negative for their console. They won't even really bother to learn what these fancy features are they're talking about do, or why they're important, or in some cases, not really all that important or different than what's being done already.
It is what it is I guess. Maybe I just have higher hopes for people to actually care than I should.
Yet another developer speaks about it. If you think abour it, its the only console that has something even the highest end PC cant currently match. That is exciting to me.
Unique doesn't mean better. Secret sauce SSD is not the game changer you think, but it's all you have to cling to right now.
Yeah. Cerny is wrong and Sweeny is wrong and Carmack is wrong. But Chris 12 is right.
/S lol
You are another prime example of twisting things that are being said into full blown fanboyism. Where did any of these people say the SSD gives PS5 an advantage over the SSD in the XSX?
Dream on with your shallow hopes, roll on the DF comparisons where the shortcomings will be shown and end the argument once and for all.
"Where did any of these people say the SSD gives PS5 an advantage over the SSD in the XSX?"
Is it from insecurity you brought up the Series x when the original comment didn't even mention it? Hmmmm
Digital foundry have already came out and said the ps5 will have advantages over xbox and they are" happy to see a custom console out of sony and have made the next console gen a little more interesting"
Have they came out and said one is better than the other? No but they haven't hinted at the fact that sony might have something hear/ be on to something. If you do the math I think the speed of the gpu makes it a little stronger than the xbox. I have seen charts from people much smarter than I break it down. But i still understand the concept. You can push 40 pounds 20 feet and 10 seconds, I can push 30 pounds 20 feet in 4 seconds. You can push more weight but over time on the second and third trip over time I move more weight than you. Xbox has 12 teraplos but can't move and communicate it that fast. Sony have 10 teraflops but can move way fast and communicate it way fast. Dumb analogy its early but yeah kinda makes my point I think. lol
@copper, unfortunately you are making the same mistakes as the fanboys, you are comparing one aspect of PS5 (the SSD) to one aspect of the XSX (12 TF). On top of that, you're using PS5's peak power.
XSX has so many advantages over the PS5 than pure TF's, but people want to forget that to make a point. Bring on the DF comnparisons, then we will see.
im less interested in console trying to compete with PC and more interested what the console as a whole will do for the games I play.
Same here. But it doesn't hurt that for the first time ever, we have a console that has a component not available on PC yet.
Cerny may have paved the way for future console designs by all the companies. Having a blazing fast ssd and good io seems to be impressing a lot of people
The thing is with this tech is it is amazing tec to take advantage of it. It's like the triggers on the controller. The question is will all the 3rd party developers take advantage of it?
Replies(5)Paid partnerships (epics UE5 demo was a marketing deal) say Playstation is great (no one says it’s best, if so please show us)
Raw specs say otherwise
Says who?
I mean other than Xbox fans who are mad that PlayStation is getting all the praise... Show the receipts.
P.S. PlayStation is the best!
I wonder when Epic Games started to need money deals and flat out lie towards their customer base (developers) for it. Is Fortnite not making enough money anymore you think? Hmmm
@Kribwalker
Sure thing. Here you go.
https://www.windowscentral.... https://www.t3.com/us/news/...
"As a programmer I say PS5 is much better and I don't think you can find a programmer that could name one advantage that XSX has over PS5."
Show proof of marketing deal please. Unreal Engine 5 is being sold to developers, not consumers, why would a marketing deal be made with that context? In that context it seems like Epic would pick the hardware that would do the best job of showing off their engine.
Man you fanboys are so delusional. You do know that PlayStation isn't the only system that will have SSD, right?
But its the only one with SSD more powerful than anything you can get even in the most high end PC, with over two times the speed of closest competitor. Just wanted to complete your statement so its accurate.
Well, we know that the SSD in the PlayStation is more than twice as fast.
Perhaps the delusion is pretending that doesn't matter?
@S2Killinit We covered this already high end pc does have ssds that fast and you can raid two ssds together on most mid level motherboards have the option in bios.
@S2killinit
Carmack didn't say anything about it being more powerful than other SSD's, all that he said was SSD was a big deal.
@Ilostmymind
Yes, yes you can. I am not the group taking a non-specific statement about a piece of hardware and only applying it to one piece of plastic because I am a blind fanboy.
@Gamingtomarow
Does 12tf vs. 9tf matter then? Hm? What else you got?
I never said anything about it not mattering, FYI. I simply stated the FACT that Carmack didn't specifically say anything about the PS5 SSD. He was talking about SSD.
Replies(3)
*Listen to a industry vet(not indie) or die hard fanboys?
*Years of experience and working with the actual hardware vs hopes, dreams, and delusions.
* Reality vs. Fantasy world(w/ magical pixies:)
*Established Credibility vs Seasoned bloggers
.....what to do what to do?
This guy obviously has no idea how apus work