Carmack: Microsoft and Sony could be hostile to Mantle

Carmack expressed his feeling on the Mantle announcement by AMD, stating that Microsoft and Sony could be hostile to the interesting initiative.

[Festano]

Finally, we can exploit our beloved duty pc.

[dmeador]

So can anyone explain to me the part about "Perfect parallel rendering - utilize all 8 CPU cores"? Are there really rigs that can make use of this? My understanding was that a 8 core system didn't scale, and you cant just add cores to increase performance for many reasons.

[gaffyh]

More importantly, can anyone explain why DirectX or OpenGL (especially) couldn't simply take ideas from Mantle and improve their APIs?

[Eonjay]

The concept of an open library is always a good idea... especially if it can maximize the AMD chipsets. I can see Microsoft being hostile to this because they want to license DirectX (if Direct X is the standard they will make a lot of money from this). But why should a developer do this if they can get max performance from a free open library that can run across all architectures. I wonder if Mantle works on the Wii U AMD GPU as well.

[Kleptic]

^That is exactly the point of mantle...developers CAN'T get 'max' performance out of current high level API's...which is exactly why devs have been pushing for better specific drivers for years...

Mantle is a low level feature set for a very specific group of gpu's...allowing developers to better utilize that architecture...so far, only AMD's GCN gpu architecture is supported...but rumors are the technology is open to other hardware manufacturers, too...so other providers could do the same thing for their own hardware...

All this is doing is giving PC development a piece of 'coding to metal'...removing many bottlenecks created by Windows and its high level API offerings between the OS and the hardware...The high level stuff is fine for getting a game to run on all kinds of different pc configurations...but its NOT good for optimizing and efficiency...

the problems high level api's create is exactly why a console with ~1 Tflops computing power could be compared to a PC with 2.5...the PC is much more 'powerful', but a significant portion of that performance is wasted in OS redundancies and lack of hardware specific optimization...easily the strongest part of consoles as a platform...

this is good for everybody...it just makes porting t0 and from the 'big 3 platforms' cheaper and easier...and it also will hopefully fix this issue where it takes a $400+ PC cpu to not bottleneck a 2 year old high end gpu...

@Dmeador...To this day per core performance in a PC cpu is more critical than the number of cores...for reasons you sort of said...the number of cores basically specifies how many simultaneous strings of code it can crunch through...an 8 core cpu can do 8 per clock cycle...that sounds awesome...but talk to a developer about getting an engine to effectively push 8 lines of code...despite the PS3 and all of its craziness, parallel processing is still extremely expensive and time consuming to develop...

Frostbite 2, and the upcoming 3, have been noted as some of the best scaling rendering engines around though...BF3's multiplayer has always made excellent use of 2 and 4 core cpu's...FB3 is said to utilize up to 8...but mantle, on the other hand, is a low level api for removing cpu overhead...meaning, with the right gpu, the importance of the cpu won't be nearly as high...thats the theory, anyway...we'll see how well it works...

[indysurfn]

Here is a thought, if this was used for PS3 and Xbox360 making them 9 times more powerful. Would that not KILL PS4 and XBONE sales? Also continuing on that line of reason. Would that not Kill PS5 and XBTWO future release?

I think it would help the underpowered pcgamebox but it could threaten future reasons for people to upgrade any time soon. That is what I think Carmack is really hinting at between the lines.

[WarThunder]

AMD FTW!

http://seekingalpha.com/art...

"Considering the boost Mantle could give to a steambox, MS and Sony may wind up being downright hostile to it."

[grassyknoll]

Considering Steam OS was partly designed by Nvidia, I'm expecting Steamboxes to be all Nvidia based. I think this fragmentation of the PC market is gonna end up quite self destructive.

[jeffgoldwin]

There's only NVidia and Amd. That's 2 by my count. Besides the whole point of Steam (Linux based) is to be open, so amd will have a hand in too.

That's not very fragmented and much as your console hopes and dreams want to believe.

[FrigidDARKNESS]

True, dont know why folks are automatically putting the Mantle with Steambox. If you go back and look at AMDs financial investors list Valve isn't listed like MS and Sony.

[Perjoss]

as far as I understood it, steam boxes are customizable, so you could probably use either amd or nvidia hardware in them.

[Vegrad415]

I think the main issue is drivers. Valve teamed up with Nvidia because in the past they have done better with their linux drivers. AMD not so much.

[windblowsagain]

Why would they be hostile to it when it will speed up their consoles as well.

Better code with PC = better fps for Consoles.

[Scroticus]

DirectX. Licensing fees. Enough said.

[kingdip90]

With this and steam os it seems the pc gaming industry wants to pull away from microsoft

[Seafort]

The PC gaming industry has been trying to do that for years but MS has a monopoly with the OS market and Direct X.

I hope this goes well for AMD with nvidia and valve (steambox) ultimately on board to work together and create a new graphics instruction set to get rid of MS stranglehold on PC gaming once and for all.

Then we just need the publishers and indie devs to get on board as well so I can finally use a proper gaming OS.

[Perjoss]

I've been dreaming of a true dual boot type of gaming OS for years now. Microsoft are not smart at all when it comes to gaming on Windows, they have this massive audience of people that love gaming on the PC but instead they just try and push them onto the xbox.

No problem, if ms do not want to cater to these fans there is always companies that will step in and take full advantage of this. They had it all right there in the palm of their hands, now sit back and watch as it all slips away from them, and it serves them right to be honest.

[Death]

With the Steambox it looks like Valve is trying to take on consoles.

[Drekken]

I think it is more of an attack on Microsoft.

"Valve boss Gabe Newell calls Windows 8 a 'catastrophe'"

He hasn't been happy with windows 8 and launched an attack. A free gaming centric operating system for PCs. That is a huge F you to MS.

[kingdip90]

Steambox for sure narrows the gap between consoles and pc's but I'm unsre as to whether they Will become direct competition, for a while at least

[Death]

I highly doubt this is all from Windows 8. This takes planning and time. If we are hooking a Steam Box up to out tv's, that is direct competition to consoles. Most PC's are still in our offices/dens/ etc. PC online is still free. If we can play games that look better than the Xbox One or PS4 on out TV's and free online, don't you think some will find that appealing?

[XtraTrstrL]

Awesome news! I guess I won't be rushing to get a PS4 just yet, I'll have to wait and watch how this all unfolds over the next few months first.

[FrigidDARKNESS]

Yap, this card replaces my ps4 purchase next year. This will probably be the only G-card you need in the next six years.

Edit
Its an app. Not a G-card but will get this anyway.

[NarooN]

Lol it's not an "app" either. It's a new low-level high-performance-based API from AMD.

[Hassassin]

it's not an app. Its a DX11 replacement (i.e. F M$)

[fOrlOnhOpe57]

Competition keeps the industry fresh, focused and forward thinking.

[Raider69]

The PS4 im getting what im not guetting is the overprice X1 especialy when more than 90% of the features dont Work in EU contrys!So now is PS4 ,WII U,and most likely a steam box even so i still have a PC.

[Death]

90% of the features don't work in EU? What exactly is it you don't have over there? Electricity?

[Raider69]

Well all the apps that you in US have with the X1 we in EU dont have,most kinect features is a no go TO USE in EU countrys.This is not new ,do your homework.

[Angeljuice]

No interest (or support) for American Football, no interest in Basketball, fantasy league crap, no cable compatibility, no language support for most languages, no launch in many countries, the list goes on.

[Pintheshadows]

Bit ignorant aren't we.

[Death]

I had no idea that is 90% of the features. I stand corrected. I was under the impression it still played games, Blu-rays, voice commands, Skype, Xbox Live, media center, etc. Clearly that is only about 10% by your estimates.

@Pint,
By the agrees, I would say possibly.

[Hicken]

You try so hard, Death. You try so had to spin anything so it doesn't sound bad for the XB1, no matter how bad it really is.

The point is that there's entirely TOO MUCH that doesn't work. And all that stuff that doesn't work is really what makes the XB1 different from the PS4. So what you're getting in Europe is a more expensive, less powerful PS4.

What reason is there to get an XB1 in Europe?

[XboxFun]

@Hicken
"What reason is there to get an XB1 in Europe?"

Games Hicken, you know what you wanted MS to specifically focus on this whole time. Something you always complained about that they lacked.

They have provided games, and it seems that now features is what they lack is what getting you upset now.

So which is it Hicken, is it features or games you are most interested in a console having more of?

Those goal posts...moving by the minute.

[MysticStrummer]

90% is clearly an exaggeration, but there are many XB1 features that won't be usable everywhere on day one. PS4 has that issue too, but not nearly to the same extent.

[MultiConsoleGamer]

There is going to be a major sea change this generation. One will rise, another will fall. Someone will drop out, and PC gaming is headed for a Rennaisance.

[Niv]

PC GOES TO STEAM

CONSOLE GOES TO PS4

Scraps to xbone, wiiu

[Belking]

Not gona happen dude. If anyone stands to gain it will be MS and valve, not sony playstation. mantle is a win-win for ms either way.

[shutUpAndTakeMyMoney]

um mantle will work on linux and ps4 is a linux machine soooo.

[NarooN]

@Belking

Mantle does not benefit Microsoft in any way whatsoever.

*Cross-platform, works on Windows, Linux, etc.
*Takes the place of DirectX (MS proprietary API) when the necessary hardware is detected

MS wants everyone to use their DX API. Mantle is pushing people towards using AMD hardware and more open-source development (similar to OpenGL in some ways.) Mantle will work on Linux, so people won't even have to use Windows to take advantage of it. This is also a part of a greater push for devs to move away from Windows and DirectX. Basically, it's all about "f*** Microsoft."

[MysticStrummer]

@shutUp and Naroon - Don't bother. It's Belking.

[pandehz]

I will still be on windows coz thats where everything works including games.

I know steam box sounds decent but I cant afford so many hardware life cycles. Windows still has my attention.

Gabe was wrong, Win 8 is not shit. Lol the steam big picture mode even looks like windows 8.

[Hassassin]

I agree. I don't use my PC only for gaming.

BUT when I game I'd prefer the better solution. If SteamOS+mantle is as good as it sounds then I'll double boot.

[metalgod88]

This is awesome, but honestly, I hate the AMD Catalyst SOOO much. It's the reason I switched to nVidia. It's so buggy and nearly impossible to install an update correctly.

It shouldn't be this difficult. I hope they rewrite that program for the love of god.

[Joe913]

I can only speak for myself but I buy a console for the games I can't play on the other console like killzone, uncharted ect so ppl like me the steam box don’t matter if it did most ppl would have moved to pc gaming full time a long time ago.

[Hassassin]

emmm... Half-Life 3 exclusivity?

[badboy776]

What is mantle?

[Alexious]

Click to find out.

[Goku781]

Hostile was when this guy said Kinect was like a latent, no button mouse lol

[BG11579]

Good things have happened for the PC world this week.
Valve's initiative with the new SteamOS and the Steam Boxes.
Now AMD's mantle API that extremely performant.

No wonder Microsoft is getting pissed, in both cases they are getting away from Windows and their DirectX. This is a very good thing for the PC.
For consoles this is not a good thing either. With these new solutions, PC will be optimized just like a console (Probably not as good as in consoles, but it's a start). So consoles are loosing one of their advantages (the other is exclusive games).
Of course MS, Sony and Nintendo are pissed with all these news. Oh yeah, so is Nvidia...

[Obamanationn]

this is a game changer , the days of forcing ppl to upgrade to windows for Direct X 11 , 11.1 , 11.1a 2b A through Z and beyond are over ? i really hope the success of mantle is great

[ATi_Elite]

Another day and another Light year that PC Gaming has just put between itself and Microsoft.

Those in the PC Gaming hardware, software, and services arena are turning their backs on Microsoft (like MS did us).

Steve Ballmer has Got to be on suicide watch right now as PC Gamers soon will NO longer need DirectX or Microsoft Windows. That will hurt Profits!

This ripple will eventually turn into a Tsunami and hurt Microsoft deeply.

Should've paid more attention to PC Gaming than to your silly little box. This Gen belongs to the The PS4 and PC Gamers.

[Jamaicangmr]

I sold my GTX670 because the GTX770 came out and was about to click place order on amazon, then i stopped and thought to myself. Why? When there are really no games i'm interested in that is really pushing pc gpu's. The last PC game i got excited for was BF3 and i got it and was pleased with my then GTX570 purchase upgrading from the GTX470. Anyway i stuck my GTX570 back in there and am now awaiting a reason to make a new purchase. Might just wait for the GTX870 anyway.

However this is my problem with PC gaming it felt like i was wasting money as new hardware comes out every year (GPU) yet a real reason to upgrade comes out like once every 2 years.

If Steam OS and Mantle can truly allow devs to push my overpriced GPU to justify it's price then i finally have a reason to dual boot. I mean come on it's windows it does more than games, i gotta work and sh!t so not gonna just up and leave.

As it relates to Sony and MS being hostile i say what do you expect? It is competition maybe not directly to Sony right now but i'm sure in the future. So ofcourse Sony is not gonna sleep on them. MS on the other hand i hope this brings about changes in Window's 9 where they are less restricted to devs.

I agree with Mr. Gabe Win8 is a warm pile. I just gotta deal with it for work purposes.

[SuperWeeb]

DirectX needs to die anyway. Supporting it is supporting lack of consumer freedom.
By supporting something open, you support the freedom to be able to choose where to game. So if you wanted to get a Mac, or move to Linux, the library is still open to you.

[beerzombie]

Steam os is a Trojan horse. Gabe is trying to take over the living room just like Apple Sony, Microsoft he is just using the hatred toward Microsoft to help him. As soon as he gathers enough people and money to develop his own steam box he will lock it down like the others.