PS4 Backwards Compatibility Explained: Why Sony Ditched Offline BC and Why The Cloud is the Future

From GamesReviews:

"The big issue for the PlayStation 4 is its lack of offline backwards compatibility. It’s the most often repeated complaint, usually followed by some variation of the phrase “it’s not a deal breaker, but really Sony should have made more of an effort.” Moments later, a foil-hat equipped conspiracy theorist will explain in great detail about how this is just another way that Sony is trying to bleed money out of their fans, and then that horrible word will rear its ugly head: anti-consumerism.

"The truth is, there’s a very good reason that the PlayStation 4 doesn't have backwards compatibility. It’s not because Sony want to screw you over, although I know some of you would love for that to be true."

[classic200]

Cloud is great but this play your game that is being downloading is pretty great.

[Jaqen_Hghar]

a man agrees. A man will keep his PS3 until he has played the games on PS4's cloud and seen it work fine. A man enjoys going back and playing through R3, God of War saga, Infamous collection, ACiT, Uncharted Trilogy, and many more about once a year when nothing is coming out so he does not want to give up that ability unless he knows it will work fine.

[reynod]

"Cloud is great"

You'd really have to have Sony blinders on if you really think cloud is great.

Its been proven time and time again, cloud gaming has lot of latency issues. Its just not the same.

Guess why Onlive never took off? How will Sony pull this of any different?

Edit: Funny people were bashing cloud gaming all along, the tone changed just when Sony cracked a deal with Gaikai all of a sudden cloud gaming was the second coming. All the issues were all of a sudden fixed. The same people who now praise cloud gaming were previously bashing Gaikai and Onlive. Its hilarious how the tones change lol.

What will be even funnier when the people now praising the cloud will start gaming on it. Watch the Sony defence force run its course then.

@matgrowcott

You are giving an example of a developed country like the UK, its even possible there may be servers near your location.

From what i have read, cloud gameplay suffers from horrible lag even when played from 1 state away from the servers in the US.

Good luck with Sony cheating physics aka long distance or crappy connections.

[zebramocha]

@reynod not really,John carmack has talked about the latency being a bit better that consoles.

[matgrowcott]

@Reynod

I've been praising OnLive since launch day in the UK. It was a fantastic service that failed to catch momentum, partly because of how long it took them to get games on the service.

Anybody who complains about visuals or latency has never played a cloud game.

Rather than complaining about Sony fanboys defending a useless service, why not celebrate that this technology is getting the sort of support that will push it to its very best? If there ARE issues there - and there really aren't - Sony will need to fix them.

EDIT:

Oh, you READ?! You read that?

I interviewed Steve Perlman, on UK launch day, at Eurogamer. He showed me real time stats of the thousands of people playing around the country, then loaded up From Dust on his iPad, which ran it like it was nothing.

I then traveled home, to the other side of the country, and it ran as perfectly - on Launch day, when the servers were stretched to capacity.

You keep reading. I'll stick with the facts, thanks.

[Oschino1907]

@Reynod - http://www.google.com/url?q... http://www.ign.com/articles... It's far more then just Sony but I guess a blind hater is gonna just see what they want to see and ignore all the info to the contrary.

Oh and that article was from almost a year ago. Why so many assume that things won't improve by 2014 or that their internet speeds will never go up (if they aren't cheap about it) or that everyone else has their crap connection is beyond comprehension.

I guess this should be in the hands of N4G commenters and not industry leaders or the tech experts. SMH...

STOP LOOKING AT TODAY AND LOOK AT TOMORROW

LOL sorry for adding more and more to this comment but it's never ending on this site. Very few forward thinking comments and tons of stuck in the here and now (or PAST) with an overly pessimistic view of how things will turn out.

[decrypt]

@reynod

Console gamers.. don't care about latency / load times.

They already play at 200+ ping :P This is a non issue. Check COD the most played console game out there its a lag fest.

[brich233]

Having to pay for your games again is not great. PCs have been backward compatible for about 20 years or more.

Its 2013 BC should be a must with these new consoles.

Have fun wasting your money on the cloud if you think its good.

[nosferatuzodd]

indeed but wait and see what Sony do at e3 first you'll never know what if they've included streaming games in with their new PS- world subscription
so you can stream ps1,2,3 games that would be good

[rezzah]

@reynod

Guess why Onlive never took off?

I have no clue.

How will Sony pull this of any different?

Was the first question a rhetorical question? Because no one can answer the second question unless they have the answer to the first.

[pixelsword]

I don't like cloud, I don't want to have to be online to play single player, it doesn't make sense at all because the multiplayer will be dead, virtually a non-factor, or non-existent.

People say it won't be a deal breaker, and it might not be.

I'm saying because of these Orwellian measures I'm not going to pre-order; but I will consider every option, from the Wii U, to the NextBox, to Valve's new console to going back to my PC before making my final decision.

Whatever will give me the most freedom when I play, or trade games, or do whatever I do (plus the graphics and gameplay) will win in the end.

It's actually a little sobering when I see people line up with a grin to exchange their current freedoms from this gen (less in the end than at the beginning, mind you) for something more oppressive and chastise those who see what this actually is.

(Last gen the PS3 was the frog in the pot with the cool, cool water; with just a little heat applied when Resistance 3 went DRM; and now they've just turned it up a little more, if you follow me).

[PS-Analog]

Good article, people slating the service should wait until it actuallt releases. MS are working on their own cloud gaming service so there is a future for it because both major console companies are investing in it. Do you think they would be pumping money into it to fail?

[NonApplicable]

A man has a choice. I chose... PlayStation

- Andrew Ryan

[Joe913]

@reynod so you bash cloud gamming based off what you heard. Lol Well I know people that had a onlive account that said it worked great for him and I heard gaikai was a better service than onlive.

[Godmars290]

Still have to wait and see how it works. Ignore the fact that people without online aren't going to have the basic, standard, advantages being promised.

[Gaming_Guru]

They said the technology is so advanced that people will be able to play previous platform games on computers. So not using the PS4 because of no internet, a person could basically go to an online cafe or something. So anyone posting comments on here, most likely have Internet or using an Internet connection somewhere.

[MadLad]

The quality of someone's internet connection also plays a major role in this.
If Onlive is a good example of where the technology is at the moment, and I believe it is, then only those with great connections will be able to closely emulate the experience you would get if simply playing the game normally. Even then, at its best, the compression that comes with streaming will still hit the overall visual quality a bit.

[RE_L_MAYER]

Thats the problem-can we even play games offline on playstation 4

[Outside_ofthe_Box]

So this article is basically saying what I've been saying all the time. The PS3 is just too hard to emulate and trying to do it by hardware will not only drive up the cost but could interfere with the PS4 hardware and cause heating issues and all other sorts of problems. Makes perfect sense to me.

What I didn't know was that you have to make a new PS1 emulator for each device which now that I think about it makes sense once again as the emulator has to be recreated to be compatible with that particular device.

I also didn't know that each PS2 game on the PS store has it's own personal PS2 emulator which again makes sense and explains why it took so long for games like GTA to come to the PS store because the developers where actually spending time making each game compatible with the PS3 hardware.

I'm kinda pissed off at this article though because it pretty much crushes my hopes for physical and digital BC not only for the PS4, but for systems after it.

I also don't consider Cloud/Gaikai the "solution/future" to BC as long as I will have to re-buy games that are already in my possession. BC means that the current system is backward compatible with all gaming discs from it's predecessors. Like someone brought up below, if they can somehow make it where you can insert your PS1, PS2, PS3 discs into the PS4 and the system is somehow able to detect what the particular game is and then stream the game with no additional purchase necessary then I would consider that to be a true solution.

[matgrowcott]

I'm sorry I crushed your dreams, but if it helps, I'd be really surprised if the PS5 didn't play PS4 games!

You know, the more I think about it, the more I think Sony are going to push a subscription service that gives you X amount of games a month, or everything if you pay more. It might not be the perfect solution to not having access to your content immediately, but if I thought I could get everything - including all available PS1, PS2 and PS3 games and then an instant game collection of PS4 stuff - for $250 a year, I wouldn't complain too much.

[Irishguy95]

Yeah that feature is gonna be one of my favorites next Gen I think.

[showtimefolks]

i am gonna keep my ps3 for a while after buying ps4. i have a ps3 that plays games from pd1-ps2 but i never did so IMO atleast BC is over rated

[2pacalypsenow]

Interesting points

[nevin1]

I don't know. I think i remeber people saying PS2 was hard to emulate but people are reporting computer experts did it.

I won't be surprised to see PS3 games on PC.

[matgrowcott]

You can emulate PS2 quite easily, but it varies from game to game. With that level of variation, Sony just can't trust the end user to play with things themselves.

On the PS3 thing though - it won't happen for a long, long time. That goes for the 360 as well.

[Hicken]

PS2 emulation is essentially hit or miss. In order for it to work, there's lots of tweaking you have to do for EACH game. It's not as simple as PS1 or earlier systems.

I love the excuse that Sony removes backwards compatibility so they could make you buy your old games again. I mean, they certainly forced me to buy HD collections instead of using either of my two PS2s for Zone of the Enders, Ico, and Shadow of the Colossus. They MADE me buy all the PS1 Final Fantasies again.

Oh, wait.

PS2 emulation is far from at an acceptable level. What makes you think the PS3, which is even harder to develop for, will be emulated any time soon?

[Dasteru]

PCSX2 has a compatibility list of 2360 games currently and 78% of them are listed as fully playable.

I just recently played through FFXII on my 3 year old system at 1920x1080 with 32x AA and texture smothing and got a solid 60fps throughout the entire game.

No visual or audio problems and no slowdowns.
I have also recently played part of FFX, Okami,
SOTC and Dark cloud 2 all with the same settings and again solid 60fps but haven't completed them yet.

Edit: oh and btw, i haven't needed to do any tweeking between them. All are played under identical settings.

[Ju]

^^ PS3 is a different beast though.

I wouldn't say it's impossible to emulate, and I am almost tempted to thinker how a PS4 could achieve this - in pure SW this is.

Today's emulators do not "interpret" op-code any more, they usually translate whatever CPU you want to emulate into native code while a binary is loaded (so called JIT - just in time - compilation).

For example, PS1 and PS2 use MIPS cpus which is incompatible with the PowerPC in the PS3 (or x86). Yet, there are quite some PS1 and PS2 games available on the PS3 (yes, these PS2 classics use SW emulation on the PS3). This is fairly "easy" to do these days.

PS2 is a little bit harder because on a HW level it also uses two vector processors (VPU0 and VPU1, the later one closer to the "rasterizer" - the PS2 does not have a GPU as such, it can't do much but rasterizing graphics - the Graphics Synthesizer or GS) but it has a direct interconnect into the EE - Emotion Engine, PS2's cpu which gives us an enormous bandwidth for the time and a 2560bit DRAM bus (9GB/s texture fill rate and up to 38GB/s framebuffer bandwidth - quite an achievement. Those numbers are still high for today's standard).

Anyway, those raw numbers need to be emulated in some way; you can't just find this bandwidth somewhere or magically write some code to "emulate" it. Those games really move data with that speed. Today, GPUs are fast enough to emulate the framebuffer speed, and PCs are fast enough to emulate the RAM bandwidth. Op-code isn't a problem either, because it can be translated. And, well, those emulators probably kick in earlier and don't even emulate the GS on a "pixel level" but on a vertex level - basically do a translation of vertex data the same way they do it with op-code - and feed it into OpenGL or DirectX (which takes away the complexity to emulate the GS to the metal). That's also why they can run PS2 games in 1080p and they probably use texture filtering through the GPU to make it look nice. Sony's emulation is more a "raw" down to the metal approach, because they want to emulate more accurately.

Are you still with me? OK, now turn this up a notch.

PS3 has 7 SPUs and one PPU running at 3.2GHz! The PPU emulation is probably trivial. PowerPC JIT (Just-In-Time) compilers have existed for a while. But now, you'd need to run at least 6 SPUs, too. There is the first challenge. Those are highly vector processors. Well, sure, you could use SSE or shaders to emulate them. Shaders do not have enough branching operations do fully emulate SPUs, though, and SSE is probably not fast enough. Then there is the question, you got 6 of them. In the best case those can shuffle data at almost 200GB/s over the ringbus within the CELL.

If you look at the PS4, it could maybe dedicate one core to emulate the PPU, and 6 or so to emulate the SPUs (for games) - and because of the UMA design it could probably use some heterogeneous method (Jaguar's AVX instructions + the GPU's compute-shaders) to make this possible. So, actually the PS4 is quite a good candidate to make this thinkable because of it's hi bandwidth RAM and CPU-GPU integration.

GPUs can match SPUs internal bandwidth with a high end card (79x0/GT670+ - those are beyond the 200GB/s bandwidth or close) but GPGPUs cannot emulate all SPUs instructions because they lack some op-codes which shaders cannot emulate.

We'll see. I mean, PS2 classic games popped up int the PS3 store just in the last 1-2 years - that is 6-7 years in it's live cycle. Which tells us, Sony feels comfortable with the SW emu in the PS3 to throw more PS2 games at it. But it took them quite a while.

[HardCover]

This opinion is outdated.

If you don't update your opinion on tech-related things like emulators, then don't go around saying that it's this-or-that in such a misleading fashion.

PS2 emulation has been at an "acceptable level" for a looooooong time now.

Hell, I bet you still think GTAIV is poorly optimized for PC. ROFL

[Ju]

Outdated, huh?

So, to let me get this straight: Emulation of a machine from 2000 which ran @ 299MHz and had 32MB of RAM in 2013 is "acceptable" fast on machines which run at 2-4GHz and have 4-8GB RAM. Hm.

If you just take these physical facts and put those into relation to a PS3 emulation on the very same machine than you will understand what challenges you have ahead of you.

Nope, not outdated. Quite reasonable, in fact.

And listen, I did not say it's impossible. But tech will improve and SW will as well...over time. But right here and now, it's not possible.

[aquamala]

Gaikai is coming to PC, so yes you'll be able to play ps3 games on pc ... Someday

[pixelsword]

True, but what this is also saying is that you don't need a PS4 to play PS 1-3 games if you don't want a PS4; with the long list of games people probably haven't even played yet, it makes the PS4 a back-burner console for those who want to play the games they've missed this gen (what I've been doing up to the PS3's 60Gb console.

Does anyone not see this as shooting the company in the foot?

[porkChop]

I get the feeling that Sony will allow PS1 and PS2 streaming on any device, but that they'll lock PS3 streaming to the PS4 and the Vita.

[Lucreto]

If I can put the PS3 disc in the PS4 and some how be able to detect it then stream the game for free through Gaikai I would be happy.

If you don't have the disc you have to pay.

[R6ex]

Brilliant idea!

[HeavenlySnipes]

That's a great idea tbh

[GribbleGrunger]

We'll have to wait and see what Sony's approach to the second hand market is before we can consider that solution. It's a viable solution but only if Sony allow people who buy second hand games to benefit too. The easiest solution would be for the PS4 to scan the disc for the Trophies and then reference that list (or some of it) with the content available on Gaikai. From there it's a simple matter of streaming the game that matches the Trophies.

Of course it would be an easy matter if every PS3 games disc had an identifying code, but we've only heard that this is something for the future and as far as we know it doesn't exist at this moment.

[nitrogav]

That's exactly what I've been thinking how Sony would know what games you own . I've got a cupboard full of ps3 discs and would be really happy if I could put them in ps4 to stream over gaikai .

[Th4Freak]

These are valid points but what if my internet sucks or I have a high latency? Do I have to buy a PS3 or suck a d*ck? Probably answer is yes...

[puamdefokejpn]

well the answer is yes to both :) kehehehe

Just keep your ps3,.. I'll get another one way into ps4, just for my old stuff (It is probably going to be cheep as hell by then)

[T900]

Are you going to buy a PS2 as well? Or have been replacing the PS2s that went bad all this time?

So now will you constantly be replacing PS2, PS3 while owning a PS4? Looks like an expensive and cumbersome(having 3 or more console plugged to the same tv) solution.

[puamdefokejpn]

@T900 ,.. I still have original 60gig ps3 with bc,.. I only played ps2 games few times in entire 6-7 years on it ,.. one was Shadow of Colossus and the others were ZoE2, Sly, and GOW ,.. And they all came out(remakes) on PS3,.. looked amazing and games were cheep.

Yes I agree with you in a way,.. but I sure don't want to pay 700 dollars for ps4 for BC, because them putting chips in for a total different architecture. Cheaper it is, the more people get the thing, the cheaper ps3 gets,..The more likelihood that some cheap compilations come to ps4. I don't know,.. BC would be nice, but I just want more gamers get on board as soon as possible.

Also we will see how Gaikai develops,.. you don't pay 1/4 billion dollars for it, if they don't know what they are doing.

[Th4Freak]

The thing is that I dont own a PS3, I've been a PC gamer my whole life but im done with it so im looking into consoles.

I was going to buy a PS3 earlier this year because im very hyped with The Last of Us, MGS and some other games but then the PS4 rumors started and I decided to wait but this cloud gaming thing kinda ruined it for me cause my internet its quite decent however my latency is high so it probably wont work for me (hope im wrong), so im just gonna have to forget about these amazing games T_T

[Larry L]

@thefreak

Taking into consideration those factors you stated, the conclusion you came to is to just forget about all the great games?

That's some logic. The obvious conclusion I come to with those factors is to buy a PS3.

PS3 has one of the most amazing over-all libraries of games that can't be played on any other platform in the history of consoles and there are still many more to come. And since it makes sense that PS4 not have PS3 B/C so that we don't have another $600 launch fiasco, the only logical conclusion for the smart gamer would be to get a PS3 ASAP.

There's just no reason to ever get rid of PS3, and this is the very first console I've ever felt that way once new hardware is coming, and mind you, I've been a dedicated console gamer for just about as long as there's been consoles. As far as I'm concerned PS3 is an absolutely timeless console with some timeless gaming experiences (again, with more to come), and because of it's unique architecture nothing moving forward is going to be able to emulate it's hardware......at least not for a LONG time....like until people are nostalgic for PS3 games.

Just go buy a PS3. I'm sure there's a nice price drop coming very soon as well. That will be the time to jump.

[DragonKnight]

I love the argument "are you going to buy a PS2 then?"

As if it's such a huge ordeal to have multiple consoles. People forget that backwards compatibility is still relatively new and yet they think it's some kind of standard and a travesty if it doesn't exist because, *gasp* no one wants to keep their old consoles.

And those people call themselves gamers.

[Th4Freak]

@Larry L You're totally right the PS3 library its totally outstanding, after taking a look at it I was like OMG! why i've been wasting my money in a PC all these years?

Anyway im moving next year and I wont be able to buy a new console in a looong time so I have to play the right cards. If the PS3 get a price drop i'll definitely buy it.

[Ju]

I wouldn't hold my breath that we could see any (full) streaming games any time soon - this includes both PS4 and PS3 games. What they do with the preview etc is not the same thing. And I don't know why people think, PS3 streaming will be possible any time soon. If Sony is real about "building the fastest gaming network" they have quite a task at hand. Running PS3 games can't be the priority - they will need Cell based servers and server farms to make this possible. This costs a fortune. Won't happen anytime soon.

I'd think the PS3 will drop to $199 sooner than later and will probably be available for the next couple of years. Library is extensive and market will probably be alive for a while - besides the PS4.

[matgrowcott]

The alternative to using the cloud is nothing, but it's not an either-or situation. We have Gaikai and make do or we don't have any BC at all.

I think you'll be surprised what they manage to do with poor connections though, especially when it comes to lower resolution stuff like PS1 games.

@T900

I'm going to guess you didn't read the article?

@reynod

Latency isn't even an issue. You're really talking out your ass.

[reynod]

Nothing they can do about Latency even if the stuff is low resolution. Latency is how fast your Machine can talk to their servers, nothing they can do can speed things up if your connection is too far or crappy. The latency will always be there.

"we don't have any BC at all"

Its Console only gamers who are crying about this and its due to choices they made. Want BC then PC is the only real option out there.

[puamdefokejpn]

Latency is not and issue,.. Basically from what we know,.. about shere performance and power,.. PS4 is basically durango+wiiU taped together,.. lololololo

[Th4Freak]

@reynod that's not true, they can use high speed proxys to reduce the route of the packages which results in lower latency, however these services cost a lot of money.

[Nitrox]

With all this talk about latency being a non-issue, no one seems to be bringing up the point that if you want to enjoy cloud gaming anywhere near lag free you basically need a wired connection (Or a top tier internet subscription and high end wireless router). I'm sure there's a lot of people, myself included, with wifi connected consoles who will still have noticeable lag regardless of server-side speed boosts.

I speak from experience that playing OnLive between my laptop and main pc is like night and day when it comes to input lag...

[Darrius Cole]

Errr...Half the people who have consoles don't connect them to the internet. I know it's hard to imagine that there are young people who don't use the internet, but they do exist.

Here is my point. THE PS4 IS STILL BEING DESIGNED. There is no way Sony didn't consider whether or not to implement BC into the PS4. Sony will implement BC with the PS3 into the PS4 if it makes dollars and sense for them to do so. This guy is talking as though all the PS4 specs are set in stone and they are not. There are lots of details that have yet to be revealed.

A LOT OF THAT WILL DEPEND ON WHAT MICROSOFT DOES WITH THE 360. If you think Sony is not prepared to change directions on this in reactions to what the MS does with the Xbox: (insert name here) then you may as well keep on smoking crack because your brain is already too far gone to come back. MS may announce that the 720 is BC with both 360 and original Xbox games. You don't think that a development like this would influence Sony's decision on BC? I do.

Bottom line is Sony may not put PS3 BC into the PS4; Microsoft may not put 360 BC into the 720. But to think that Sony didn't even play for the contingency when the chips were being designed, to the point that PS3 BC is impossible, is to not give Sony much credit at all.

[wishingW3L]

PS4 specs are finalized and is gonna enter production in August. But before that they have to do many reliability tests and stuff so they can't go on changing parts of the console near the end because then the testing phase will take longer and they might miss their starting production date.

Or even worse... They could pull off a M$ and release a broken console just to be on time.

[cjflora]

If you have PS3 games...don't you already have a PS3? Are do you mean for those who don't have a PS3 wanting to go back and play the PS3 catalog?

[pr0t0typeknuckles]

this is a cool feature and all but i refuse to pay for the same game i already have twice just so that i can play it on ps4, so ill keep my ps3.

[LOOK_AT_THIS_I]

This will suck for any online games. Single player games will be fine but what aboit the huge free to play games sony is trying to promote. DC Universe/Dust etc.... unless they make a version compatible for the ps4 those games are gonna die. Dc universe alone is around 20 gbs loaded and still has hiccups occasionally.

I hope they can find a way that some of these games can work without streaming if not i know it will be a huge issue for some with bad internet providers/satellite internet/bandwidth limits.

Ive used gaikai for single llayer games in the past but i think all online functionality will be lost if you stream.

[Tetsujin]

One idea I have for the backwards compatibility; if you physically have the disc, digitally download the rest of the game and have it software emulated so you can play whenever (providing you have the disc). On paper it sounds like a neat idea however I doubt that would be the case, especially with a lot of game saves I'd hate to lose while jumping to the PS4. I really hope there's a way to emulate PSN titles at least because some I still play on occasion.

[T900]

Emulation wont work, emulation usually requires a lot of brute force.

The CPU PS4 is releasing with is fairly weak, its a mobile CPU. Normally Emulation requires very powerful CPUs. As of today there is no emulator out there even for the PC that can run PS3 games. Emulating the CELL and its SPEs is no joke.

I think its pretty safe to say you wont be seeing any sort of emulation of the PS3, not on the PS4 hardware atleast.

[ApocalypseShadow]

I don't care for Microsoft,but this is where I think Microsoft will have an advantage.I think their new system will have backwards compatibility and make games look better with forward compatibility.

we can all see that Sony didn't have a choice in making PlayStation 4. People complained about the high price of PlayStation 3, developers complained about the cell processor.so now we're getting an ease of use PlayStation 4.

Sucks big time but what can you do.Sony gave gamers and developers what they wanted just like they wanted a lower priced priced ps3 because they didn't want to pay launch prices.

Changes means sacrifices.

[Darrius Cole]

If the next Xbox has BC then the PS4 will have it too.

Think about it from a consumer point of view.

I have about 30 PS3 and no PS3 because it got stolen. I need another console. If the PS4 will play my PS3 games then my decision is a no brainer, I will but a PS4. BUT, if the PS4 is not BC with the PS3, then I have to reason to prefer a Playstation 4, I will look at both systems from an even slate and make my decision then.

Sony doesn't want the PS4 to start out with a level playing field in the minds of PS3 gamers. They want to keep the advantage. If the next Xbox is totally BC. Then the field will be tipped in favor of the next Xbox. All the 360 gamers will defer to the next Xbox because it will play their existing library, but none of the PS3 gamers will be able to play there existing library on a PS4.

Sony is not going to let it play out like that.

[matgrowcott]

@Darrius

I didn't want to reply to your first comment, because I don't mind someone being hopeful of something they want, but really, offline BC isn't going to happen. I outline why in the article. Additionally, the PS4 has been finalized for probably the best part of 18 months, and developers are building for it now. A change in the way the system works would mean remaking parts or all of those games.

The next Xbox should have backwards compatibility - both the 360 and Durango are basically PCs. That's not going to change a single thing Sony are doing though.

[Darrius Cole]

I read your article. I didn't see any reference to any inside knowledge. Where do you draw the information to make your conclusion?

As far as I can tell the only info I have seen to say that it won't be BC is that the guy on stage said that it would not be, but he has reason to lie about it. A BC PS4 would stop all PS3 purchases immediately, and Sony wants to keep selling PS3's.

Until I see something concrete I will assume that the reason the Sony added the cost of BC to the PS3 at launch still exists now. But if you have something concrete, do tell. I will check it out.

[specialguest]

Basically, BC on the PS4 does not exist and will never exist. Gaikai will mostly likely be a paid streaming service, but don't call it a BC alternative.

[tweet75]

sony had better allow players to access games they already own digitally for free on the cloud or I will boycott sony for life and will not buy a ps4.

[smashcrashbash]

Oh my God! Logic! The bane of N4G.Quick look away before your eyes start to burn.Simple logic. BC is not easy to do on the PS4 because of the huge difference between the components of both consoles.That is what many of us have been saying since the beginning only to shouted down as blind fanboys. But now logic prevails. It is not easy just to strap the PS3, PS2 and PS1 to the new PS4 without putting a lot of effort, time and money into doing it which in turn will raise the price of the system.You see.THAT is journalism. Even if you want to argue or disagree with it, the article is well thought out points backed with reason and common sense and not a long mindless rant about how not having BC sucks and how greedy Sony is.Kudos GamesReviews.But it was all for naught.No doubt the inhabitants of N4G will conquer up some ignorant illogical nonsense that will negate everything you said.This is just how this site is. And no doubt I will be showered with disagrees for applauding your logic. Just watch

[Gazondaily]

"This is just how this site is. And no doubt I will be showered with disagrees for applauding your logic. Just watch"

16 hours later and you have 7 agrees to 1 disagree. I guess you failed in your prediction there.....unless of course, this was a clever way to use reverse psychology xD

[smashcrashbash]

Please.I am just lucky the ignorant people probably didn't have a chance to disagree with me.It's not the first time logic and common sense have been disagreed with.I just went with the higher odds based on the norm of the N4G community.But there is always a chance that the smaller odds can come to pass.

[MultiConsoleGamer]

Streaming BC is the future for them because they can make you pay for it. Just like PS2 HD collections.

[Imalwaysright]

Finally someone is using logic here on N4g. That is the ONLY reason why PS4 won't have BC.

[djthechamp24]

Console owners are so fucking cheap nowadays and even if they put it in the ps4 people would bitch even more that its to damn expensive but me personally i dont give a fuck if theres no Backwards Compatibility because multiplat games ran like shit on the ps3 anyway.

[DivineAssault]

I must admit that its pretty jacked up that i cant play all those digital purchases as well as my disc based games on PS4 BUT im not selling my PS3 so i dont care.. Im buying a PS4 for my living room & to play new stuff.. I didnt care for this gen too much & what i do miss might be streamable through gaikai...

My PS3 will be a secondary system probably in my bedroom for all the stuff i bought & blu ray player..

[Imalwaysright]

You just have to pray that your PS3 doesn't die on you.

[ger2396]

Not having bc on the ps4 is a non issue, unless you plan on ditching your ps3.

[BlaqMagiq24]

Very good read! Anyone that's wondering why the PS4 won't have backwards compatibility NEEDS to read this.

[Sevir]

Of playing last gen games.. it just doesn't make sense, after purchasing a PS2 and seeing the improvements graphically, I didn't return to ps1 nor did I place a PS1 disc in my ps2... And I cared not to place a PS2 DVD into my PS3's Bluray drive to play it.

If you are complaining so much about backwards compatible hardware, the solution is simple, keep your $250-$600 Investment, move it into your bedroom so when you feel the need to enjoy a last gen game its there. And connect your ps4/nextbox under your tv in the living room.

Backwards Compatibility is a convenient feature which ends up being nothing more than a price inflator that gets very little, to no use is console hardware.

[ALLWRONG]

$ <--- for what you already own, that's why.

[Arai]

Great article and was well worth the read.
For all those wanting BC and the lot, this explains things in a crystal clear manner.

[Dagobert]

Ok, great. I have a shit ton of PS1, PS2 and PS3 games that I like to play because a. I have not played them yet or b. I like to play them again. My PS3 is the original 60gb version. If anything happens to that and I can't get it fixed, I'm screwed playing PS2 games. Lets say down the road PS3's are not made anymore, I want to play PS3 games and I can't afford to buy digital downloads of them again. What then? Also I'm a collector I like physical copies.

[smashcrashbash]

Ummm.That is the way all consoles are.Nintendo dropped support for many of their older consoles in favor of letting you download them instead.I had a whole bunch of N64 games and they changed to the Gamecube and didn't support them.You deal with it just like we all have.People only attack Sony for it because they love to hate them.But I didn't hear anyone complaining when Nintendo said that you have to download SNES or N64 or Game Cube games.No one complained and it was no different from what Sony is doing now.And you still had to pay money for those it's not like they gave it to you for free.What about my collection of N64 or Gamcube games? Why doesn't the Wii U support those? But no one asks those questions on the Nintendo side or calls them greedy.Only Sony is greedy.Do you think Microsoft is going to let you play Xbox games on the next Xbox? Nope you will most likely have to download them.But I am sure that will be okay and complaints will be minimum.

[KingKelloggTheWH]

I really want real BC,I would pay extra for it :(

[wishingW3L]

me too. Sony should make a special edition or something of the PS4 with BC with PS1, PS2 and PS3 games. I mean, I bought many HD collections and now the stupid things will not even work on the PS4? Dude, no way, that's a freaking scam!

[Liamabob]

Keep your PS3 then?

[KingKelloggTheWH]

I agree,all these collections feel like a complete waste now.

[Ulf]

This article has it spot-on, for PS3 BC -- it's impossible without including a Cell and a RSX, and that's just not gonna happen, for cost reasons: you're literally better off just buying a PS3, and Sony is too, for not having to try and sell a $700 console.

It's not about how "powerful" the Cell is (although, watt-for-watt, it *is* more powerful than any PC processor -- it is the most powerful CPU in existence, when you consider its scale relative to modern CPUs, like the i7).

The Cell's design, in being so thoroughly parallel, is basically impossible to emulate via software alone. Emulating SPU paralellism, and the ring bus architecture, would take a single CPU of enormous potential -- well beyond today's technology, because you'd have to literally emulate 8 3.2 GHz cores (1 PPU, 7 SPUs) on a single chip, and the cache would somehow have to behave, via manual control, as well as the localstore on the SPUs. Impossible. You can't split the work across several cores, either, because you have to emulate how the ring bus works across those cores... it's just not possible without core and bus speeds WAY beyond what we are likely to see anytime soon.

PS2 BC though... we should see that on the PS4, no problem. PS2 BC was only difficult on the Cell, because the PPU wasn't beefy enough to emulate both the EE and GS, and offloading the GS work to the SPUs was something Sony apparently gave up on. Emulating the PS2 on the PS4 should be far easier, with GPGPU functionality to emulate the PS2's GS, and plenty of cores to emulate the EE's extra pair of companion vector cores.

PS1 support is a no brainer. Sony puts PS1 games on every platform in the universe... I'm certain it'll be on the PS4 as well.

[Ulf]

I should mention that there is basically no reason PS4 owners couldn't have PS3 games streamed to them via Gaikai, once validating that the disc in their PS4 is a valid disc, and assuming that the game is available on a Gaikai stream server -- which probably means it would have to be available digitally on the PS3.

If you can't buy it digitally, you can't expect streaming BC for it -- there isn't some DJ chump who is going to find your disc over at Gaikai, and shove it into the machine that is streaming you data. That's ridiculous.

[Ulf]

@Tiquila,

Nope, There's no reason a sheltered PS3 couldn't have a custom OS made explicitly for the purpose of streaming PS3 titles.

[Bladesfist]

Most powerful cpu in existence lol. Can you please back that up. Sure it has awesome floating point performance but what else. Ermm.

[taquito]

"PS4 Backwards Compatibility Explained: Why Sony Ditched Offline BC"

so they can sell you "true hd" remakes and get you to pay for terrible streaming of sub-hd games with awful latency

[Bladesfist]

BC is one of the reasons I buy all my games on PC except PS3 exclusives ofcourse. I don't want to lose access to my library if I upgrade.

[EffectO]

Yeah,cloud is great just look at SimCity...mandatory constant internet connection has certainly done wonders for that game

As for bu bu Cell,PS2 and PC are night and day and yet people have made PS2 emulator without Sony help or documentation.All it did was helping RSX anyway.Not to mention that Sony could go early PS3 BC route,Cell is a dirt cheap chip today.Offer it as more expensive BC capable SKU,done.

No PS4 BC has nothing to do with impossibility(you won't see PS1/PS2 BC either),it has everything to do with the fact that Sony wants to sell you your old games through their cloud service.

You don't buy something for $400 million,invest who knows what into it and then give it as a nice option.

[e-p-ayeaH]

finaly a comment that makes sense.

[Adolph Fitler]

Microsoft didn't want a bar of backwards compatability when they switched from xbox to xbox 360, & Nintendo certainly didn't bother with it. The way I see it, we were in a different lucky time when we went from PS1 to PS2 & if you lived in the U.S. & bought a PS3 on launch (or close to). I mean, the PS3 was absolutely unbelievable with having 2 console b/c.
But, we have moved on from those days, & the fact is that the way it is, & is going to be, even moreso, is, that we get some of games & will one day be getting ALL of them from our console of choices, online stores.
Now, I have purchases a buttload of awesome PSN, PSone, PS2, PS3, PSP, PSVita, mini's & such games....So, rather than b/c with disk based games, I am hoping moreso, that Sony will link stores & I will be able to re-download or throw my PS3 purchases on a hdd, then plug it into my PS4 & copy them over.

Anyhow, who gives a crap in the end, as I learned from PS1, PS2 & PS3 b/c, I didn't really play my PS1 games on my PS2, as I was too busy playing PS2 games, then when I got my PAL PS3 that had the Emotion Engine callously stripped for us Europeans & Australians & we got some bodgy emulation software instead, I basically tried every PS2 (original) I had & tested if they all worked, & surprisingly they all worked fine, but guess what....I never put a PS2 or PS1 game in my PS3 tray again.....well, actually, I tell a lie, as I bought Whiplash for PS2 off Ebay for my son & let him play some of it on my PS3. So, even the emulation software works a treat for b/c if done right (take notes MS, as your supposedly the software company & Sony, the hardware company embarrassed you....again). But in reality, b/c is a bullet point on the box, that arouses emotions & nostalgia rears it's ugly head, & then we you actually see a game you played 10-15-20yrs ago, you actually wish you hadn't in 95% of cases. I mean, the Galaga's, Space Invaders, Pac Man's, Super Metroid's, Strider's, Ghouls'n'ghosts, etc, etc, are exceptions to the rule, but when you see a 2 gen (almost 3 actually) old game that you absolutely worshipped, like say, Tomb Raider, Syphon Filter, Medievil, Driver, Goldeneye64, Turok, etc, etc, you look at them in disbelief, thinking, "wow, I don't remember it looking this bad". And, in fact, it didn't look that bad to us at the time, in fact, we thought there was no way things could get that much better....the same thing young gamers are saying when they look at COD, or Far Cry, or the new Tomb Raider remake, well,....guess what kiddies, when I was 18,19,20, & even in my mid 20's when I got my launch PS2 & later down the track popped a little game titled GTA3 into the tray & started playing, mouth agape on the floor, dribbling, finally picking my jaw from the blowfly, food crumb, cigarette butt, filled, & bong water stained floor, & saying to myself & anyone else in the room who would listen, "holy f$#ken sh1t, they can't make games any better looking than this". But, then PS3 came along & Just Cause 2 popped up it's beautiful head 1st, then came GTA4, & I thought instead, "wow, I wonder how much better it will be in 2-3 consoles time". Then last years E3 rolled around, & Watch Dogs was unveiled, & I was once again floored by the visuals & game in general, but nowhere near as gobsmacked as when I 1st laid my eyes on GTA3. I now know, that games with each gen, should & will get waaaay better than the ones that came before. I have lost that young kids & mans attitude that it can't get much better than this, as I have been around for enough gens. now, to know that not only can it get lightyears better, it is. I mean, the new Killzone looks brilliant.

[Adolph Fitler]

And, all the people carrying on about how horrible cloud is, HAVE ANY OF YOU EVER EVEN PURCHASED, OR PLAYED ANYTHING FROM THE SERVICE???? If Yes, & you've suffered due to slow internet, or being far away from your exchange, then that is part & parcel with the hobby you've chosen, as online is a mixed bag, thanks to the fact there are so many variations of it.
I truly believe EVERY country willing, should enter an agreement to all use a unified online infrastructure that entails us all to be using the same technology, & whether our government is responsible, or private enterprise, doesn't matter, but it all should just be one unified architecture & THE BEST, FASTEST, MOST RELIABLE, MOST RELIABLE, MOST RELIABLE, AFFORDABLE, MOST RELIABLE, FASTEST & MOST RELIABLE, internet technology they can muster up.
But, seeing as that is just a hopeless dream, we have to get by with hand we've been dealt.....and prawns carrying on about how Sony fanboys used to slam Cloud gaming & Gakai & now Sony have bought it, it's the "2nd coming".....That's just bs, fanboy bs, as I don't remember Sony fanboys specifically bashing Cloud....that is just guess work & speculation from you other fanboys. I mean, just cause Sony were smart enough to buy it, & your beloved MS are having issues with there indie development projects (actually, I think there canning there indie productions).....there is no need to Sony bash & hate on them for having the insight to buy what they could turn into a massive thing. Just wish them the best, & buy a PS4 when it launches, knowing that you can get awesome disk based games, such as Killzone, infamous, Ass Creed 4, DriveClub, etc, etc. Lighten up, & celebrate gaming...if your a console gamer & your open minded enough to put the games 1st, then buying a Sony console is a no brainer, as that is where the games are at.

I can't wait to get my shiny new PS4. The only thing I will be bashing Sony about is the torturous, extra wait that us PAL gamers will suffer, in order for Sony Japan to cater to Japan (that's fair enough), & cater to the U.S., before they accommodate there biggest market & hugest supporters & fanbase here in Australia & Europe (being there biggest market), which simply isn't fair, & is particularly nasty, making us wait until well after Christmas, when Americans will be playing there PS4's, or refusing to buy it, as they feel it is TOO expensive, or TOO ugly, or TOO non-b/c compatable, or TOO not Xbox720 logoed.....

In other words, the same clowns that dictated Sony's removal of b/c & card slots, when in fact, these masses of cyber Sony haters already had the ONLY console they planned to buy, in either a 360, or a Wii.
These masses of turkeys, had nothing better to do, than bash Sony, as they felt threatened & that somehow, Sony's console was gonna go all Chucky, & grab a kitchen knife & come round there houses, & kill there 360 and/or Wii's, then kill all in the household, for not worshipping Sony, & joining the Sony cult, that sacrifice a Nintendo DSLite daily, & eat the disks of GC's for breakfast snacks.

[Adolph Fitler]

Get over your Sony-ist hatred, put down the lynchin' ropes, throw away your Kaz Hirai voodoo dolls & remove all the pins through his eyes & safely dispose of them.....Then, go out, get a job, & start saving for the console you know you want....the one any self respecting gamer wants RIGHT NOW, with a passion. Yes, the thing with that EVIL 4 letters, arranged in that devilistik manner, yes, after Elvis & his pelvis coming straight from hell to corrupt the youth & cause them to rebel against THE MAN, well, the far worse entity arrived in our living rooms, hooked up to our timber boxed, black magic, (barely) colour, thing we all sat around mesmerized & under it's evil spell, yep, the new appointed babysitter, that we call the television, now had a companion, a partner in crime, yes, those letter were arranged in the following order, S......O......N....Y..... yes, Sony. You know you want to add the PS4 to your television sets & play THE BEST games that will be offered next gen. You know that Sony box will swallow & spit out, some of the greatest games ever conceived, with developers like ND, Evolution Studios, Media Molecule, Sucker Punch & Team Ico, to name some of the high caliber of talent, making games for it. Anyone who doesn't want a PS4 for these developers alone, need there gamers license revoked, & they should take up a new hobby, such as free climbing highrise buildings going from the top down.

I may ramble with walls of text, but they are highly entertaining & by 'highly" I mean, you have to be high to read my sh!t. lol.

[fatstarr]

its like how java is universal on all operating systems similar concept for ps3 /ps2 emulation on ps4

there's ways to emulate, sony is just that lazy. if you can emulate, an operating system over an emulated operating system which is being emulated over the cloud. then you can do it. all it is is tricking the os into thinking its running on what its running and having an answer for each of the cells questions. it takes time and research but it can be done. im not the play station user in my family so I have no worry's its not my problem that it wont be backwards compatible.

[e-p-ayeaH]

so purchased psn titles like flower and fat princess will be unplayable offline on the ps4...fanboys like these methods of course they do.

[ps3_pwns]

will the ps1 classics or ps2 classics be transferable to ps4?

[Neurotoxin]

The only way Sony could make this work without pissing off the masses is have some sort of Free unlock for the games you already own through the cloud game service.

[rataranian]

Umm....because they want more money? =\

[SnakeCQC]

its great until the cloud has problems then no one can play until they resolve it. I prefer to have the games here so i can play them at will

[mananimal]

Cloud gaming is EVIL, its all about CONTROL, & the Next Xbox will be even more Anti-Consumer.
I refuse PS4, but to each his own imo.