890°

PlayStation Network Still Not Secure, Says Ex-Hacker

Recognized as one of the top computer hackers in the world today, Gregory Evans is warning gamers that they’re not safe when playing video games on PlayStation Network. The author of eight books on computer security and identity theft, Evans spent two years in federal prison and paid $10 million for hacking into major companies like AT&T, MCI and Worldcom. He’s been hacking since the 10th grade, but now he works on the right side of the law.

Read Full Story >>
industrygamers.com
Fishy Fingers4706d ago

Just an interesting quote I'll post before the warfare begins..

"And it’s not just Sony gamers that are at risk. It’s anyone who has any online gaming console like Xbox or Wii. Nothing’s 100 percent secure."

Jamegohanssj54706d ago ShowReplies(11)
dragonelite4706d ago

Every thing can be yes but is it worth the effort for a hacker. lets i would want to get 20 million email accounts what will i do will i try to hack for lets say facebook takes me a week or would i hack a couple of smaller social networks and be done within a 20 hours.

Time is money emails are worth some moneys you know the spam mail you thought wtf how did i get that. It's probably because someone got your email from a database and sold it again.

snork4705d ago Show
Hozi894705d ago (Edited 4705d ago )

@Snork. A few words of advice if I may...but
Put not your faith in rulers, or in the son of man, in whom there is no salvation. yes it's scripture but hey...it doesn't take a wise man to see that those words are the truth. SONY cool and all but in no way should someone, especially an average gamer act as if SONY is their master. remember, it's just advice.

ZombieNinjaPanda4705d ago

Snork, either you're an idiot, or a troll. I pray it's the latter.

Bull5hifT4705d ago (Edited 4705d ago )

I bet that as soon as microsoft makes fun of sony at E3 for having the psn outtage, hackers are going to make it there buisness to Rape the 360 , id like a BLUE SCREEN OF DEATH followed by a laugh and then the 3 rings of death... It would be epic

Legion4705d ago

1 bubble calling others trolls. Funny. Obviously if he looked at the makeup of N4G he would see that the majority of users are now Sony fans versus any other console.

Tr10wn4705d ago

N4G is a Sony mecca so WTF are you talking about?? 85% of the users on this site are Sony fanboys, but still you made a good questing, if Sony have so many exclusives, WHY n4g is full of PS3 fanboys? those exclusive are mediocre, boring or short? answers?

death2smoochie4705d ago (Edited 4705d ago )

@snork

Hmmm...Joined recently....

Hmmm...English not Engrish...

Sony fanboy EXTREME...

Seems REAL KILLER has an alternate account :P

I_find_it_funny4705d ago

he sounds like he's advertising his company

Kurt Russell4705d ago

@snork

bwahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahaahhaha...HAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHHAHAHA... HAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHA.

Thanks mate, that was priceless.

Active Reload4705d ago

Everyone knows any network can be hacked. You don't need to quote something that's well known and then point out that it's interesting. What is interesting is the fact you try to distract from what's really going on, and that's PSN being hacked to hell.

Anarki4705d ago

In recent news; shit was found in the woods... police have linked it to a bear.

Krimson-Rage4705d ago

@Tr10wn
If that's a "fact", why is your sneering, pompous and clearly trolling remark still not flagged as such?

DragonKnight4705d ago

See, now this guy right here can bring a good name to hackers. After seeing what being on the wrong side of the law his hacking brought him, he decided to change his life and comes out to try and inform and help people. If more hackers were like this guy here, people wouldn't be labeling and stereotyping all hackers as deviants and crooks.

Everything can be hacked, and the hackers that do so are criminals. But if you're part of the hacker community and you're just going to sit there and let them do these kinds of things, and not try to help prevent such problems or speak out against such individuals, you are also a part of the problem.

+ Show (12) more repliesLast reply 4705d ago
Domer254706d ago (Edited 4706d ago )

My toaster oven is about the only thing with a lcd-screen in my house that IS Hackproof.......so no surprise here..

Commander_TK4706d ago (Edited 4706d ago )

Your toaster oven has an LCD-screen?! Would love to have that.

sikbeta4706d ago

Still have a walkman here, definitely hack-proof... I hope :P

SilentNegotiator4705d ago (Edited 4705d ago )

Hacking now....
Prepare for some really hot Hot Pockets. You might even burn the roof of your mouth!

So nothing is hack proof. Thanks for the old info. Turn that into a story, base it around something Sony related, get a thousand degrees on N4G.

Oh and this guy is SUUUUCH an expert! He got caught when he still lived with mommy and daddy and then caught again a few years later. Now he owns some companies and asserts that he's an expert, claiming that people who actually went out and got degrees don't know as much as him.

An equally insane claim analogy:
I build fireworks in my backyard. Pyrotechnicians don't know as much as me because they work in a controlled environment.

RandomDude6554705d ago

You haven't put otherOS on your toaster....what a noob....lol

+ Show (2) more repliesLast reply 4705d ago
MasterCornholio4706d ago (Edited 4706d ago )

I keep telling people that no online network is secure. But they just dont listen. They somehow believe that if they pay for a service it will be unhackable when the truth is that World Of Warcraft gets hacked all the time. I play the game and theres an amazing number of bots, farmers and spammers that it amazes me.

Hozi894705d ago

People might start to think I got all religious but honestly. When one lives in obedience to God, nothing of evil wrongs can come close to you.

although I realize that no one is perfect and to live for God (in total obedience) would require great self sacrifice and probably mean giving up hardcore gaming as it's certainly not godly to kill whether it be in real life or simulation.

nanometric4705d ago (Edited 4705d ago )

How can you kill that which has no life?

mastiffchild4705d ago

Ha! Butters brings down religion. Go on oyoung Stotch.

M-Easy4706d ago

This is why i hate "industrygamers" he clearly states nothing is secure but they focus on starting a flame war. REMEMBER if you are also sick of sites like these:

Click UNDER "read full story" where is says "industrygamers.com+" ; then click WTF for story quality and NO for do you like this website.

BTW shame on whoever approved this.

aGameDeveloper4706d ago

Another "interesting" quote:

"Even if these guys [IT managers] have a Master’s Degree or PhD from a school like MIT, that doesn’t make them a true security expert."

With the rest of what he said in the interview, one can deduct:

kid who calls himself a hacker >> IT manager with a degree from MIT focussed on network security...

bobbyluv4706d ago Show
pain777pas4706d ago

Fishy has summed up pretty much what the short but informative interview was all about. No network is safe with people who study hacking. Hackers have to stop hackers plain and simple but tough to get the cooperation of a hacker like the interviewer who got caught and did time.

nycredude4706d ago Show
frostypants4705d ago (Edited 4705d ago )

It bares repeating: "No. And it’s not just Sony gamers that are at risk. It’s anyone who has any online gaming console like Xbox or Wii. Nothing’s 100 percent secure."

Whoever submitted this article is a misleading troll, but in fairness so is the actual headline. It's not that Sony's network isn't more secure than it was before, it's that NOTHING IS HACK PROOF.

T3MPL3TON 4705d ago (Edited 4705d ago )

Frosty: Sony's network isn't more secure.. that's what you aren't getting. IT. IS. NOT. MORE. SECURE.
Just because Sony, says it is doesn't mean it is. I'll give it about a week after it goes back up 100% it'll be taken down again.

People keep harping on the fact that nothing is safe and want to use the old misdirect and imply that it'll happen with XBL as well. It wont, because Microsoft isn't so foolish as to hire script kiddies who went to collage they hire actual hackers to provide anti hacker security. This is why the one and only time someone took down XBL it was back up in a day. It wasn't a week. It wasn't months. In all truth is was a few hours. This wouldn't have happened if Sony used their collective brains and hired the people who were jail-breaking their product. Those people should have been hired first then people who actually have a hacking background not a bunch of collage grads who've never hacked anything.

Vherostar4705d ago

Exactly whoever posted this article picked that bit at the top to start a flame war. Terrible..

Hagaf224705d ago

I'm still confused as to how his comparison of IT managers to Infantry and hackers are SEALs is video game terms. Call me crazy but those are military terms.

bozebo4705d ago

Yeah thats what I've been saying all along. Anyone with a modicum of security knowledge knows that it's highly unlikely that any large organisation's systems are secure from remote attacks, and they are definately not secure from targeted attacks (like their employees' phones being hacked to get into the network). The most secure networks in the world are the home networks of people who work in the infosec industry and in the homes of hackers/nerds/etc.

Treyb3yond4705d ago

Only xbots think they are safe from hackers.

the_best_player4705d ago

@PlayStation Network Still Not Secure
Ok Dog

harrisk9544705d ago (Edited 4705d ago )

"big corporations get hacked every single day. Only 17 percent of companies whose computers were hacked report them to law enforcement due to fear of negative publicity. Ninety percent of Fortune 500 networks have been hacked... it’s not just Sony gamers that are at risk. It’s anyone who has any online gaming console like Xbox or Wii. Nothing’s 100 percent secure."

It could have just as easily been MS getting hit.

Wardog13684705d ago

This article is very one sided in that I read an article published by the ACM saying companies were relying too much on former hackers to protect their networks. He used this analogy: "It is dumb to think that the ability to break into a car is somehow an indicator that they know how to build one."

I just think it's interesting as it's completely opposite of what this article is saying. And I'd trust the ACM more than this as it is their industry. But I'm sure both cases exist in different companies.

+ Show (15) more repliesLast reply 4705d ago
rabidpancakeburglar4706d ago (Edited 4706d ago )

How would this guy actually know. Has he actually seen what sony have been doing in the background? No, Sony employees and security firms helping them have.

Fishy Fingers4706d ago (Edited 4706d ago )

He focussing on Sony because thats who he's being asked about. It's actually a good interview (a little short) which helps show this sort of thing can happen to anyone and anytime. He's not some novice.

Edit: Reports will probably stop this getting through anyway. Legitimate interview or not.

donniebaseball4706d ago

Seriously people, what's up with these reports? This is a brand-new interview by a top freelancer in games journalism with a hacker who was world renowned. Sheesh...

THWIP714706d ago Show
mandf4706d ago (Edited 4706d ago )

donniebaseball

The reports are for the hacker who acts like a expert on Sony when he hides his own name. Anyone can claim anything when you can't verify who it is and verify the legitimacy of any claim. How many articles have we seen were websites just make of stuff for web hits.

Edit By the way, the Ps3 didn't get hacked. The key was stolen from a Sony repair center. For 4 years it was untouched. Anyone can get into any house if they have the key. The Psn was hacked over the internet 2 very different things. This guy has no clue unless he actually hacked the system himself or worked with Sony. Which is it? Not every system for hacking is the same. He maybe an expert but he and others tried for 4 years and came away with nothing. Common sense.

Fishy Fingers4706d ago

"when he hides his own name"

First line.... "Gregory Evans"

Didnt have to be a hacker to figure that one out.

THWIP714706d ago Show
SixShotCop4706d ago Show
mandf4706d ago (Edited 4706d ago )

For fishy and nitwit

I read the article. Either the guy has or hasn't worked with the ps3. In either case neither were made clear. The ps3 was unhacked for 4 years with everyone trying to hack it with no success. Hackers of all types of skill sets. It's easy to claim anything when you had no part of it and act like you know everything about it. Sony didn't hire him so that leaves he was part of the hacking to have any knowledge about the hack.

testerg354706d ago

mandf, I'm not sure why you're talking about the PS3 being hacked. I thought the whole article is about the Sony sites being hacked.

gamingdroid4706d ago Show
gamingdroid4706d ago Show
nycredude4706d ago

Dude got caught. Nuff said.

+ Show (8) more repliesLast reply 4706d ago
InFAMOUS14706d ago

To be perfectly fair, he knows because it is what he does. It has been said time and time and time AND time again.... No source code is ever 100% secure.. The only reason why Sony was hacked was because they had a target on their back.. The hacker used the Anon DDoS attacks as cover to carry out the attack..

The Pentagon, Microsoft, IBM, banks and on and on have ALL been hacked... Sony and EVERY OTHER company will never be 100% safe from hackers.... PERIOD...

Tainted Gene4705d ago

it says from the article

that only 17% of companyies actually report being hacked.

and

Roughly 90% of the Fortune 500 companies have also been hacked.

In short: Sony is clearly not alone in this, they are just the ones in the spotlight. (Anon, GeoHot, Failoverflow, leaked keys, etc)

Eu4705d ago

Yes to you both....and people focus on SONY because they want to HATE it to hell....Its true that it would happen also to MS and Nintendo if they were hacked....stupidity at its best.

kneon4706d ago

He's making a general statement that no network is 100% secure, which is true, but the flamebait title makes it sound like it's only Sony.

DrFUD4706d ago (Edited 4706d ago )

Typical hacker mentality.
He says hire hackers because they're smarter than everyone else basically.
I'm sure the guy who's studied networking his entire life and knows his shit inside and out, upside down and sideways really respects this guy too...not.

Fishy Fingers4706d ago (Edited 4706d ago )

Why must you downplay him? You realise he is an expert and was at one time, considered one of, if not the best hacker, he does know what he's talking about. His living is online security.

Regarding hackers, dont you think Sony (or any other company) paid a lot of money for these experts to set up the protection/networking systems in the first place? And these large, no doubt expensive companies work is beaten by a 'few dudes in their mums basement' as many like to see it.

Hackers are finding ways through pretty much every system, every form of online protection, so surely, their knowledge, their input would be invaluable.

radphil4706d ago (Edited 4706d ago )

"Typical hacker mentality.

I'm sure the guy who's studied networking his entire life and knows his shit inside and out, upside down and sideways really respects this guy too...not."

Um....what....what am I looking at here?

It's true with what he says, no network is 100% secure.

THWIP714706d ago ShowReplies(5)
theaceh4705d ago (Edited 4705d ago )

To me, what the expert is referring to is something that can be found on many Security books and its that Hackers/Crackers think Evil, IT managers do not think Evil, because they occupy most of their time building solutions and services. This 'Evil' mentality is what allows hackers to find ways of breaking into computer networks/software built by IT professionals that sometimes do not or cannot, spend enough time thinking about how someone can exploit their creations, due to unrealistic deadlines, fatigue, company policies and politics, etc.

This is why I believe this expert believes that Hackers have a certain edge over IT managers when it comes to Network Security. Hiring Hackers to counter Hackers seems to work best IMO because its like asking a car thief 'How would you break into my car if you wanted to steal it?'

+ Show (1) more replyLast reply 4705d ago
Uncharted3Goty4706d ago

it has to be true if its from a ex hacker then you know your not secure. its like a ex robber telling you that the locks you used are not good enough to protect your house.

mantisimo4705d ago (Edited 4705d ago )

Not so sure as a poster on the comment section of the source wrote this.

"This is GREGORY EVANS! Do you people not know who this is? he is a fraud and has absolutely ZERO skills. he isn't a security researcher, nor a hacker, nor a businessman. he defrauds his investors, files ridiculous lawsuits that always get thrown out. not only that, he's had his facebook & twitter accounts removed/suspended multiple times for threatening people & harassment. Only god knows why a "writer" would look to this guy as a qualified source to write about Sony's Playstation network. Yes, Sony is stupid and screwed up, royally. Gregory Evans isn't the authority on any of this. John Gaudiosi you're an idiot for publishing anything this guy has to say about security. He's a criminal and a fraud. Learn to check facts and your sources before you publish."

Ouch,if true (and the person who wrote the above is obviously also anti sony) but if true then pretty insignificant post.

Edit found this vid to back up the fraud claims at least. http://www.youtube.com/watc...

-EvoAnubis-4705d ago

Interesting! So basically this guy is completely and totally full of shit.

slyleo20014705d ago

People should check all the facts before believing things they see/read on the internet. .... But who really has all that free time lol

tweet754706d ago

is any network ever 100% secure? thats like saying is my door lock 100% theif proof ? All you can do is take the best precautions

Show all comments (181)
280°

Sony Taps Bungie's Head of Revenue to Lead Live-Service Games

Sony has recruited Bungie's head of revenue Jaremy Rich to head up its live-service gaming division, Rich has announced on social media.

Read Full Story >>
techraptor.net
ChasterMies15d ago

Please do not put Destiny’s monetization into Sony’s first party games. The monetization is what’s driving players away from Destiny.

just_looken14d ago

The new temp boss is the sony cfo bean counter so i can see this being a thing get every penny.

Cacabunga14d ago

PlayStation officially losing it.. fans will never support gaas games

just_looken14d ago

@car

The new boss did a interview in japan he wants to tap into the mobile market like nintendio so he give 0 fucks about gamers/fans

https://www.pushsquare.com/...

Redemption-6414d ago

@Cacabunga
You only speak for you and those who think like you, but most fans will support what they want. Playstation and PC fans are literally supporting Helldivers 2 and that is a gaas. Maybe you wouldn't, but many more would if they like it.

Huey_My_D_Long14d ago

@Redemption-64
Look, Im not making any judgement calls about this guy, but I will say that Helldivers 2 GaaS model is unique to Helldivers, and legit the only other game I can think of thats similiar was the Avengers game except HD2 pass is still better.
The fact that you can earn in game currency in a way that doesnt make you feel like you have to grind forever, as well you being able work on that pass that you bought...on your own time without a time limit...that right there is fucking huge to me, and I can't name any game other than avengers that avoided trapping players with FOMO logic...I think GaaS on HD2 shouldn't be compared to the rest of the industry...it should be copied.

Einhander197214d ago

Cacabunga

Helldivers 2...

Redemption-64

In Europe it's a 60 40 split favoring PC.
In the US its a 60 40 split favoring PS5.

So PlayStation owners supported the game just fine, it's not getting carried by PC or anything like that.

FinalFantasyFanatic14d ago

@just_looken,
I'm perfectly fine with the way Nintendo entered the mobile market, I never touched their mobile games, meanwhile, the console/handheld stayed the way it is. As for being a bean counter, he's probably going to reel in these massive budgets that Sony's studios have had lately, I haven't played Spiderman 2, but I cannot see how they almost tripled the budget for that game.

@Redemption-64,
That's an exception to the rule, I'm expecting a lot of these GAAS games from Sony to fail, to be fair, they only need a few to succeed, but I would have preferred that they put more of their resources into other types of games.

+ Show (3) more repliesLast reply 14d ago
DivineHand12514d ago

True their monetization is driving players away and at the same time, their decision to chop out content and convoluted systems is keeping new players away from the game.

Joe91314d ago

I don't think that will happen based on how things worked out at Naughty Dog now that we know what we do, seems they had the option to fully commit to live service games or stay making single player experences so they gave up on their live service game. We are not sure how things came about with Bend making a live service game but I hope that was not a forced situation. Sony doesnt seem like they are forcing studios to switch up but we will see, Sony's bread and butter is single player games it is how they dominated the console market.

Obscure_Observer14d ago

Yeah, I though Sony learned something from all their failures in the LS segment under Bungie´s disastrous leadership and supervision which led to games been cancelled, studios closed and all the people laid off.

Looks like Bungie still plays a major role in Sony´s LS initiative and Sony is not backtracking on their GaaS plans.

S2Killinit14d ago (Edited 14d ago )

Are we forgetting that Destiny is also a highly successful franchise? I feel like that definitely deserves mention here.

Besides, there is no reason why a person cant learn from past experiences.

Joe91314d ago

I agree, people act as if Destiny flopped when it came out lol it took 9 to 10 years for the numbers to fall yet people are still playing it add the success of Helldivers 2 no wonder Sony is going forward down this path.

S2Killinit14d ago

Personally, I see no problem with Sony also having service games as long as they make good ones, and more importantly they deliver the AAA story driven games that they are known for. So yeah, I agree 100% with you.

+ Show (2) more repliesLast reply 14d ago
Christopher14d ago

I mean, this person made some pretty bad decisions at Bungie. I hope they've learned from them because I definitely don't see those type of ideas as good for PlaySation in general.

CrimsonWing6914d ago (Edited 14d ago )

Honestly, what’s to learn from? How to make people happily continuously dump money into a single game over its life-time? Buy season passes continuously for several years with a smile on our faces?

GaaS is a design decision that is everything wrong with this industry. The fact that Helldivers 2 did so well and people defend the monetization because it was $40 and is a fun game, scares the sh*t out of me to see that the door is open and all shift will probably be to replicate that in future games. We already know the ROI for traditional game dev cost isn’t doing it for them.

I thought with Jimbo leaving we’d see a change for the better… I’m not so sure now.

S2Killinit14d ago

Service games are being offered by everyone. Sony cannot afford to only create single player AAA games. No one can. They already said they will be doing both.

Abnor_Mal14d ago (Edited 14d ago )

Ps5 gamers in 2023 seemed to play more live service types of games, so regardless to how people feel about them, numbers don’t lie and Sony is going where the money is. I mean look at the excitement around Helldivers2, people are showing that they want live service games.

Christopher14d ago

They play long-time existing live service games like CoD, Fortnite, Apex Legends, Destiny 2, and the like. Mass majority of new live service games are considered failures and aren't moving gamers away from older games.

just_looken14d ago

Yep the huge issue with live service is they need paid players along with a reason to play them.

You forgot mobile market that also taps into that player base as well as the eve online style games there is only a certain amount of krakens/whales blind supporters compared to the amount of live service games we have its not sustainable math wise.

700 restaurants making food for every seat for 1000-3000 eaters just does not work out

Einhander197214d ago (Edited 14d ago )

Christopher

I am not a big live service fan and literally own zero of the games you listed, but that is not true, unless you call games that aren't the top games to be failures.

There are tons of live service games that are profitable.

Games don't have to be the biggest game ever they just need to make more than they cost.

I challenge you to show professionally prepared data that shows that more live service games fail than make enough to keep going.

Because all the data that I have seen shows that live service is less of a gamble than making a big AAA budget game which needs to survive off retail sales.

FinalFantasyFanatic14d ago

I sometimes wonder if we're at saturation point, where it's hard for a new game to join those ranks unless it's particularly exceptional, people only have so much time and money to devote to these types of games.

romulus2314d ago

Correction, they have no issue playing good live service games

shinoff218314d ago

Lol it's not even a quarter of the ps5s sold. Helldivers may have been a hit but let's not say most are enjoying it because truth is most(the real most ) don't care about it.

S2Killinit14d ago (Edited 14d ago )

I play what is fun. If a live service game is good I’ll play it as long as its not a money scheme which Helldivers is not.

And Im a single player gamer.

mastershredder14d ago

How do you kill a franchise that already been killed?
Destiny’s grind, cash-in-on-playbass-cha-Ching, and pop-culture-insertion mainstream-me-too bs totally killed any rep Bungie had. Sony/Bungie, if you are doing this to ward-off players, it’s already working.

crazyCoconuts14d ago

Headline truncated:
"... off a cliff"

Show all comments (43)
80°

Sony May Soon Let You Decide How Much NPCs Talk In Games

Sony has patented to add multiple dialogue modes to let players switch between how many conversations with NPCs they want in the game.

blackblades20d ago

Sony is like the only ones outta the 3 that has atuff like like this pop up changing thing in ways.

just_looken20d ago

Sony in the past has always been first at bat with new ideas/tech but in the end never fully use it or just toss it away.

blackblades20d ago

I think they did use some but yeah most usually never happened but at least they thought about it. Sony seeks things like this and other, Nintendo seek different ways of playing going by there different controler designs and console designs.

just_looken20d ago (Edited 20d ago )

some of the other stuff sony want's/owns never used
https://gamerant.com/sony-p...
https://gamerant.com/sony-p...
https://www.eurogamer.net/s...
https://metro.co.uk/2023/03...
https://decrypt.co/114754/s...

monitor/adjust game difficultly as you play
https://www.techradar.com/g...

Sony nfts
https://www.theblock.co/pos...

Pay ai to play the game for you
https://thebusinessofesport...

Oh all the above last 12 months

I just imagine a evil scientist with test subjects when it comes down to sony recent patent reports.

Kaii20d ago

Will we get dialogue options that won't spoil puzzles in a matter of seconds? :p

280°

Judge rules in PlayStation's favour in $500m patent infringement lawsuit

Genuine Enabling Technology was seeking damages, claiming the tech allowing PlayStation consoles and controllers to communicate infringes its rights.

Read Full Story >>
gamesindustry.biz
S2Killinit22d ago

Big victory for Sony. And a long time coming.

DarXyde22d ago (Edited 22d ago )

Crazy to think the savings from this lawsuit allows them to develop one AAA game.

Make it Bloodborne 2, please and thank you.

22d ago
Profchaos22d ago

Sounds like patent trolling they tried the same thing against Nintendo with the same pattern.

Motion and control input traversing over higher and lower frequencies seperate from each other allowing the controller to do both

Pyrofire9522d ago

Patents suck. Most of them are complete garbage.

Knightofelemia22d ago

So to recoup the money Genuine is going to take on Nintendo or Microsoft next. I hate patent lawyers they are some of the worst bottom feeders out there.

Show all comments (13)