210°

Gran Turismo 5 NASCAR Cars Can Be “Smashed to Smithereens”

Gran Turismo’s history spans across a decade. Every game in the long-running franchise is known for its unmatched realism, but does not include any damage or crashing physics for vehicles. However, Polyphony Digital boss and Gran Turismo 5’s creator has reiterated that the PS3 exclusive will feature full damage effects for cars, especially in the NASCAR range.

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playstationlifestyle.net
cmrbe5094d ago

But then i think NASCAR fans love their car smashes which is hilarious. Still don't know why they do. Car smashes where i am from means your are an idiot.

nix5094d ago

well... i gotta be careful on Nascar tracks then.

dc15093d ago

That's so true.... yet, I'm sure my sponsor will all leave me.. as my Nascar car will more than likely be in a few 'fender benders'...

thereapersson5093d ago

You should be careful on ANY race. Anyone who thinks a racing game should be defined as a smash-car fest should be slapped. Yes, racing damage *DOES* add to the realism, yet it should NEVER be considered the defining feature.

DO YOU SEE REAL RACERS TRYING TO SMASH EACH OTHER UP ON PURPOSE? Most racers try to AVOID collisions, because it costs REAL MONEY TO REPAIR.

Then again, Forza fans who claim damage is what sets them apart from the crowd are the same people who think that any racing game can't be taken seriously until it's the next iteration of Destruction Derby.

PirateThom5093d ago

I wish they make it so it cost money in game to repair your car if you crash it, that would be realistic.

The concept of "damage = realism" flys out the window when you can restart races and there's little to no penalty after a race.

This would be "too hard" for many though.

Minimox165093d ago

"Most racers try to AVOID collisions, because it costs REAL MONEY TO REPAIR"

So the driver life doesn't matter lol ( i know what you mean im just kidding :P )

+ Show (1) more replyLast reply 5093d ago
morganfell5094d ago

It isn't as if people go to races and sit in the stands praying for a crash but rather the amazement that when one does occur the drivers walk away. It isn't the crash but the fact they operate in defiance of such events. On instances where there is tragedy no one is out celebrating. I recall when bother Earnhardt and Allison were killed, it was like a national day of mourning here.

There is much more contact in NASCAR than in any other form of auto racing except for less prominent classes such as Open Wheel. The difference is these cars are trading paint at 200 mph. I am glad of all race types they put such total destruction into NASCAR as that is where it most often occurs on such a devastating scale.

Kleptic5093d ago

Well Nascar now is no where near 200mph anymore, but I do agree...they bump each other the entire lap for the most part...

morganfell5093d ago (Edited 5093d ago )

Restrictor plates do not affect top speed per se but rather how fast a car can reach top speed. They cut the horsepower from around 750 back to 450 - 500. That is why you only find high speeds at longer tracks such as Daytona and Talledega and not locations such as short tracks (i.e. Bristol).

Average end of race speeds for Talledega will be anywhere from 140 to 160 but speeds on the straight-aways (back stretch is 4000 and the front is 4300), still exceed 200 mph.

And it only takes one three wide at those speeds to result in a devastating crash.

gta_cb5093d ago

the new Final Destination movie (3d version) I like how they are only there to see a crash haha :)

Larry L5093d ago

No, restrictor plates GREATLY affect top speed. They reduce the amount of air and gas getting to the engine...of COUSE that affects to speed. A couple/few years back, just before they switched to the new cars, NASCAR did some testing at Talladega without restrictor plates. Do you know what the top speed was?........237 mph, and that was a solo car, no draft. Restrictor plates GREATLY reduce top speed. If they didn't there would be deaths every year if people were crashing at those speeds.

morganfell5093d ago (Edited 5093d ago )

I am going to disagree with you. Plenty of tests have been run showing cars with reduced horsepower still reaching very close to the same top speeds. They just require a much greater distance in order to top out at that speed. There is a sweet spot by which cutting too many horses will have a major effect on top speed but staying above 450 still allows these cars to bump close to the point they did before plates were instituted. You are confusing top speed of a car with the ability to get to top speed in a short amount of time. You also cannot look at lap speed but clock speeds on certain portions of the track. which will vary from 200 down to just over 100.

When you get a sub 200 hundred mph speed for the lap result you CANNOT say the car never hit 200 mph during the lap. You can only say that the lap speed or average wasn't over 200. Restrictor plates do to some degree (why I said per se) affect matters but it is more important that they affect speed over distance rather than simply speed. Cars now take roughly 3/5 of the stretch to top out at Talledega instead of just half way.

Larry L5093d ago

Well, I'm going to have to disagree back with you my fellow STar Wars EU fan (my 2 PSN IDs are Darth-Krayt and Exar_Kun). 2 reasons. Lets say if you hypothetically had and infinite straight road, or you're out on the salt flats or something. An unrestricted 850hp NASCAR stock car is going to have a greater top speed than a restricted 450hp NASCAR stock car. It's not less horse power because it's a smaller displacement engine. It's the same exact engine just with the amount of fuel and air going into the engine restricted. It just can NOT go as fast with all other things being equal. You aren't comparing a mustang and a comaro here, these cars are idendical. Granted, the 850 hp could have a low gear and the 450 hp car could have a high gear, in which case the 450 hp car could go even faster than the 850 hp cars (i.e. if the 450 had Talladega gearing and the 850 had Bristol gearing). But both cars having the TALL Talladega gearing, the cars can NOT go the same speed.

The 2nd reason is, we aren't talking about infinitely straight salt flats here. We're talking 2 specific 2.5 mile oval tracks here....Talladega and Daytona. You have to stop accelerating, slow down and turn. So while technically you are correct, an 850hp car gets up to a higher speed quicker than a restricted 450 hp car, that's directly related to how fast these cars can go on the specific track. And also the restricted cars are just about hitting top speed now solo on both tracks. The revs are redlined. The only reason they can go faster than like 195 on the straightaways is because of drafting. When they tested the unrestricted cars they were hitting 237 before having to slow down for the corners, solo with no draft. The reason that was the top speed they hit is because they ran out of room to accelerate.

Larry L5093d ago (Edited 5093d ago )

edit- double post

evrfighter5093d ago

larry's post was so informative u get a bubble.

+ Show (5) more repliesLast reply 5093d ago
sikbeta5093d ago

Being Honest, I don't like NASCAR at all but I love the Crashes...

anti-fanboy5093d ago

Have you ever been to a NASCAR track and watch a race? Most people who do go to a track and watch a cup race in person find it to be a thrilling and very fun experience. You cannot appreciate a race without going to one.

But some of the wrecks are intense.

RICH885092d ago

had to get my 2 cents in morgan you are incorrect about the top speed being affected by restrictor plates. rusty wallace did a test for the radio company that supplies communication back and forth for the crew they were testing to see if speed affected communication. The speed was well over 230 after taking the plates off. also think back to the record speed on that track of 212 avg lap speed set by bill elliot before restrictor plates. haters call me what you want but i contain an encyclopedic knowledge of nascar no links needed it comes from the brain. To add to the gt article this game will be epic adding nascar was like the cherry on top for me i'm very excited stop the wait.

thereapersson5093d ago (Edited 5093d ago )

wrong reply

thereapersson5093d ago

I completely agree. Until you start penalizing drivers for crashing their cars, you won't see people actually taking damage seriously.

Just think, you're 5-10,000 dollars away from earning that next sweet ride, and then suddenly you have a serious accident in one of your major races that costs you all those hard-earned credits. Suddenly the fact that there is damage in the game becomes that much less romantic, and more of a serious "oh shit, I really gotta watch what I'm doing on the race course" affair.

PimpHandHappy5093d ago

NO if you crash in Nascar mode on GT5 it should not cost you money unless in this Nascar mode you run the team and NOT race... The driver does not pay for the damage he does because he has a team and that team has sponsors

I dont like Nascar but with no real Nascar game out this year im guessing this will be its biggest bullet point in America and will push this game to very large numbers

Hideo_Kojima5093d ago

The driver doesn't buy any car he can afford and put it on the race track either...

He doesn't pay for the car and he doesn't make any upgrades he wants yet in games that seems to be how things work.

Same thing goes for football games you get to control everything not just the player or in this case driver.

I would like what reapersson sudjested it would be awesome to have to pay for repairs think of how it would be if you could crash into someone and over take them but then thinking "no I need to be careful and save money for later"

Montrealien5093d ago

Nascar is dirty racing, they bump and grind there way through the track to victory. And lets be honest here, these are mostly oval tracks, the rough play and the risk that comes with it makes Nascar what it is. I am glad they understand that to make a good Nascar mode implemented in their game, it needs to have damage.

I can't wait for GT5, it will be epic.

vhero5093d ago

Very good news for the game as there been constantly crap from 360 fanboys going on that only minor damage is in the game this proves the opposite and just adds even more pleasure to the ultimate driving sim.

BeaArthur5093d ago

cmrbe...actually true fans don't like the big wrecks because they just stop the racing for long periods of time. True I like to see wrecks/cautions when my favorite driver (Kevin Harvick) needs a caution to adjust the car, avoid going a lap down, etc. but we don't just like to sit there and watch car accidents.

xXRight3yeXx5093d ago

When are they revealing the release date????????????? I am so pissed off. Waiting 3 years for this game isn't really the ideal thing to do if you're a PS3 exclusive collector like me.

rockleex5093d ago

"GT5 cars will be smashed to smithereens in Nascar. Featuring up to one bolt."

Then he goes on to say that he can announce the launch date soon.

Yup, they're pretty much reaching the polishing stage now.

AEtherbane5093d ago

I need to play some more racing games, this looks fun.

+ Show (8) more repliesLast reply 5092d ago
cupogoodness5094d ago ShowReplies(2)
user94220775094d ago

They better be saying the truth about the GT5 release date announcement.

BeaArthur5093d ago

Agreed, I'm tried of building anticipation only to see the date get pushed back. Don't say anything about a release date until it is set in stone.

LebaNoob5094d ago (Edited 5094d ago )

Curious to see how realistic Polyphony Digital managed to make the crashes... A bad crash engine could seriously detract from GT5's realism.
Then again, they're as perfectionist as they come. I doubt they'll let us down :)

Show all comments (63)
90°

PlayStation 3: chasing the 1080p dream, part three - Gran Turismo 5 and the indie explosion

From Digital Foundry: "Welcome to the third part in the biggest DF Retro episode we've ever produced - a year-by-year look at how 1080p gaming fared on the PlayStation 3. Launched in 2007 touting its then-exclusive HDMI digital interface, Sony layered full HD gaming on top of its Cell processor and RSX 'Reality Synthesizer' as key selling points for its third generation console. Of course, we all know how that turned out - both Sony and Microsoft machines routinely ran the most advanced titles at sub-720p resolutions, often with questionable performance, so what happened to the 1080p dream?

In the first two parts of John Linneman's investigation, we've covered off the first four years of the Triple's lifecycle and moving into 2010, the overall fortunes of the PlayStation 3 continued to improve. The platform holder released - what was then - the most advanced motion controller in the console space, backed up by experiments with stereoscopic 3D, which turned out to be a short-lived but still formidable pairing. Combined with a strong E3 showing, PS3 was looking good.

However, it's fair to say that it was a fallow year for 1080p gaming on the system, with only Scott Pilgrim Saves The World's razor-sharp pixel art upscaling, Castle Crashers and Soldner X2's 3D/FMV stylings accommodating full HD output - alongside a wonderful Monkey Island remaster."

Read Full Story >>
eurogamer.net
ApocalypseShadow630d ago (Edited 630d ago )

Just remember ladies and gentlemen, Sony never said all games would be 1080p. Only that the system would support games up to 1080p in a survey before the system was released.
https://spong.com/article/9...
And as we saw, some games did support it, some games tried their best to support it and some games didn't or never reached it.

Is a higher resolution great to have if you can do it? Sure. Is it necessary for a fun game? No

But what I find interesting is Eurogamer. Are they really talking about HD and PS3 in their article or are they really pushing their 4.50 Euros 4K video download subscription? Seems one is being used to sell the other. Just look at the bottom of the article.

Michiel1989630d ago

thats what every company tries to do, push for people to buy their products. Are you really gonna blame them for that?

ApocalypseShadow630d ago

Not all articles are about selling. They're about informing or entertaining.

Maybe I'm supposed to watch the video instead of reading. But I shouldn't have to click. But the article lazily tells us some games did hit 1080p and some didn't. I didn't learn anything new as I own the console. Then, they push a Patreon subscription.

Are you saying every opinion, preview, review and rant article requires a push to buy something now? Tell me which sites are prone to do so so that I can avoid them in the future.

Michiel1989630d ago

not everyone played during the ps3 era. I started during snes era but loved seeing articles/videos about how gaming evolved before that.

i dont think this article is trying to push you to get that patreon sub, it doesnt for me at least. I dont think theres anything wrong putting an ad at the bottom of the article. all the regular DF videos are free already.

SonyStyled630d ago

Wipeout HD on PS3, a remake of the PS1 game was 1080p 60fps. And that released in 2007-08

Christopher630d ago

This really feels like a filler article. I don't feel like I learned anything notable or substantial from this. I feel they could have reduced the unnecessary intro and over-explanation of things and put the whole series in one article for a more substantial and possibly informative piece rather than piece-mealing it out as they have.

dumahim630d ago

It's more about the video. DF Retro videos are for Patreon members first, and I think the whole thing was one big video. For the youtube channel, it gets chopped up and released weekly.

ApocalypseShadow630d ago

Chris is actually right on this one. Something known already was just kind of washed over in the article. Unless you're supposed to get more in the video. If more is in the video, then more could have been said in the article.

Only thing I learned new was that they are selling a subscription. My point though is that you gain more viewers by having better articles and content.

627d ago
280°

What Happened To Gran Turismo?

When thinking about simulation racing games in this console generation, it’s not unreasonable for your first thought to be “Forza”. Microsoft’s first-party sim-racer series has been wildly successful, and for many of us, it’s been the go-to franchise for quite some time. But simulation racing games weren’t always synonymous with Forza; there was a time when Polyphony Digital’s hardcore series, Gran Turismo, reigned supreme. While the long-time franchise continues to sell exceptionally well, there’s no doubt that it isn’t the young, spry series it used to be.

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gamingbolt.com
darthv721697d ago

It doesnt suck but I would love to see a return to form with GT7. Sport is such a departure that it can turn some people off. It has gotten better over time but it's still no match for a proper GT7.

Rude-ro1697d ago

Sport is awesome for what it is...
However, polygon built a whole new engine and the tech is still being worked on...
I understand it is easy to praise a cookie cutter because it release the same game over and over with rotations of maps and cars...
But this engine polygon has designed does more for things other than gaming.

Repetitive old engines with new makeup does not make anyone king.

Gt7 will be most likely in two years with 120fps and ray tracing because their new engines are ready now.

LordStig1697d ago

It decided to focus on racing rather than cars and in the gaming world, racing = gameplay.

Imalwaysright1697d ago

What complete and utter BS. GT has always focused on racing and gameplay.

1697d ago
neutralgamer19921697d ago

Good I guess selling millions of copies and have OFFICIAL FIA license races and Esports means it sucks

We just don't get it every year which is why ms also delayed next forza. You can't keep making yearly sequels. Quality and innovation takes time

GT sports at launch to now it's a different game and support has been free

Imalwaysright1697d ago

GT games have always sold millions of copies and what's so innovative about GT sport? It's a racing game FFS.

IRetrouk1696d ago

The online championships and tournaments alone offer more innovation than any racer this gen🤷‍♂️ then you also get the live ones in New York etc with proper race like commentary, something else no other sim has done before. It sells millions because it's the best, simple really.

Imalwaysright1696d ago (Edited 1696d ago )

IRetrouk

I'm not even sure why think that having proper like race commentary or championships and tournements is innovative but I'll play along... GT Sport was released in 2017 so how do explain that this video https://www.youtube.com/wat... from 2016 exists?

Dark_Knightmare21696d ago

Spoken like someone who hasn’t played sport

Imortus_san1695d ago

And those Paid demos, that fans try to hide and not talk about it.

+ Show (3) more repliesLast reply 1695d ago
SCW19821697d ago

It became the best online racing community for console players and its an amazing achievment.

Keltech1697d ago

"Forza?" HaHaHaHaHaHaHa!! good joke!

kayoss1697d ago

Too early for an Aprils fool joke.

1697d ago
ElementX1697d ago

@solidgamerX That's really not very impressive. Somebody with an interest in cars plays racing games and becomes a race car driver. That's like saying "look at this guy, he played COD and now he's in the military"

Imalwaysright1697d ago

SolidGamerX

You must think that we're all stupid enough to believe that a game will turn anyone into a professional racing driver.

Prince-Ali1697d ago

FORZA!!! AAHAHHAHA !! Haven't i schooled you on this already before! You're still spewing nonsense on this threaddd looool

mcstorm1697d ago

Forza has always been better online than. GT and still is. Great to see PD try something different with GTS but let's face it this gen sonys racing games have been poor this then compaired to what Microsoft has had to offer. Forza 7 is one of the best racing games on xbox and pc but for me Horizon 3 and 4 have set the bar this gen. Of all the things microsoft got wrong this gen 2 of its racing games got a lot right and others are now playing catchup.

DarXyde1697d ago

It's debatable which is the better game. To me, Forza has the upper hand.

But in terms of online community and events? Ha. Don't lie to yourself just because you don't like Playstation.

1697d ago
1697d ago
Dark_Knightmare21696d ago

Lol not even close have you even played gt sport online?

Imalwaysright1696d ago (Edited 1696d ago )

SolidGamerX

You didn't need to confirm what I already knew: if you didn't think that we're all stupid you wouldn't make such stupid comments that only those that are dead from the neck up will agree with.

IRetrouk1696d ago (Edited 1696d ago )

Did he say gt could turn anyone into a racer? No he didnt, he asked what game has done it like gt has, which is true, gt academy done it throughout gt5 for a start. You need to do some research fella, cause your wrong.. again.

And lmao at element and the downplay, not even similar you crazy man, not even similar🤣 you realise gt has turned gamers into drivers from gt5? Go look at gt academy and tell me how that would be anything like someone playing cod and then joining the army, the downplay in gt articles is funny.

ElementX1696d ago

So you think he learned the required skills playing video games? I remember when people claimed children were learning how to operate guns because of video games, do you think that's also true?

IRetrouk1696d ago (Edited 1696d ago )

Two completely different things and you know it, it is a fact that gt has helped real gamers become real race drivers, the proof is easily available online and I'm not going round searching for links that has been posted many, many times before on this subject, Go and look at gt academy like I mentioned and you can see for yourself, they start out on gt and go from there, so yes the game gran turismo teaches you some driving techniques, now if you can find me a link where someone has been playing cod and went on to become a war hero, please let me know because I couldnt find anything, also do you have a link to where cod has a program to train soldiers? Like cod academy or something?, I couldnt find one of those either, maybe when you do then your comparison will actually make sense.

Imalwaysright1696d ago

IRetrouk

You mean the GT academy that provides training and licenses for a person to become a professional racing driver? The GT academy is how you go from being an average driving joe to become a professional racing driver not GT the game.

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+ Show (14) more repliesLast reply 1696d ago
1696d ago
xRacer74x1697d ago

Forza owns the racing game scene in my area as far as video games go.

dekke1697d ago

Forza = Arcade
GT= Sim

why u ppl keep comparing those 2 games every time..

Keltech1697d ago (Edited 1697d ago )

GT owns the console sim racing scene in my area and around the world. Just ask a real race car drivers

https://youtu.be/2pC3-eCAdv...

LordStig1697d ago

Forza isn't a racing game. It's a car game.

1697d ago
+ Show (2) more repliesLast reply 1697d ago
Hungryalpaca1697d ago

I’ll stick to sims. You keep playing with your hot wheels.

King_Noctis1697d ago

You forget that there are two Forzas, Forza Motorsport and Forza Horizon, which aims at different audiences.

King Nezz1697d ago

The usual response from someone insecure that feels their favorite racing game is nowhere near as good as it once was. I really liked Gran and played them all. Loved the Vector from part 2. But the franchise is not the same.

Gaming4Life19811697d ago

Yea Forza took over and is now the best sim racer with motorsport and the best arcade racer with horizon. GT was the best but it has been falling short for a long time and I'm not saying gt games are bad but no where near king like it used to be. I'd say forza motorsport 3 was the forza that really upped the franchise and forza 4 was when forza became #1.

I remember the glory days of gt but those days are long gone but it's still a good game just not the best. Of course ps fans will never admit it because they will die before giving MS credit.

+ Show (1) more replyLast reply 1697d ago
Nacho_Z1697d ago

I do think they need some new creative heads in to give them some new perspectives, they seem stuck in a rut. It's a very high quality rut but they're still stuck in it.

LordStig1697d ago

The USA leg of the Gran Turismo World Tour is going on in New York right now. Go watch it guys, there's some damn good racing and crazy updates to come.

Nacho_Z1697d ago

I've seen some of it before and to be fair it's not much different to watching real motorsport so credit to them for that.

Heavenly King1697d ago

the MACH 5 :) GO SPEED rACEr!!

Show all comments (108)
320°

Gran Turismo 5, Gran Turismo 6, Wipeout HD, God of War 3 and more running on PC via the latest RPCS3

DSOGaming writes: "It appears that the best Playstation 3 emulator that is currently under development, RPCS3, received a new update recently. kd-11 has implemented new Surface Cache fixes to RPCS3 that reportedly improve the appearance of car reflections in Gran Turismo 6, and fix various graphics glitches in other games."

Read Full Story >>
dsogaming.com
1734d ago Replies(6)
gangsta_red1734d ago

If someone out there in internet land could make a decent PS3 emulator imagine what Sony could actually do if they put the time and effort in to make this happen for their next console?

It's definitely not impossible as we can see here. It should definitely be done since BC seems to be very important to Sony this next gen. Imagine PS+ free game offerings from Sony that could include the whole catalog from the PS console family..fantastic.

Silly gameAr1734d ago

Why waste time and money on it? Some people want to move forward, not go back.

Eonjay1734d ago

It's not a deal breaker but having the feature would be amazing. I would rather have it than not have it.

gangsta_red1734d ago

Not everyone feels that way and if Sony is making an issue of supporting PS4 games for PS5 why not support their other past games for people who still have them or a means to buy them and play them.

KwietStorm_BLM1734d ago

You literally just said some people. So I'd imagine you can comprehend that there's a larger subset of people not in that same "some" group. PlayStation used to be known for backward compatibility. Xbox made a big deal about support for their entire catalog. What's the issue with PlayStation, who has an even more substantial history in gaming, tapping into that market? We don't have this problem on PC. It's only a good thing for consumers to be able to bring their games with them through generations on console.

Silly gameAr1734d ago (Edited 1734d ago )

@kwietstorm

Yes, I said some people. What I said was MY opinion. I'm one of those people that couldn't care less about bc, but im not saying ALL people don't care about it. I think they should spend that time and energy for future features and games, but like I said, that's only my opinion.

Imortus_san1733d ago (Edited 1733d ago )

Not every body trows their games way every time the new gen cames along, and everybody that likes games like to be able to play their favorite games in the best possible way.

PS: Retrocompatability is the most requested feature in Sony Foruns, even Sony said so.

+ Show (2) more repliesLast reply 1733d ago
frostypants1734d ago (Edited 1734d ago )

The question is would the return on investment be worthwhile? Are the number of additional consoles PS3 BC would push be enough to justify the cost of developing the emulation (and it would have to be bullet proof)? I like the idea of having it, but for my part not having it won't effect my purchase decision.

1734d ago
Eonjay1734d ago

You are asking the right question but the wrong way. For me, the addition of PS3 BC would add value as a customer and make it even more likely for me to buy a PS5. If it is valuable to the customer it is valuable to them.

Also, the way they are doing it would be way cheaper than a program like Microsoft had. The are emulating the hardware. Not the software.

gangsta_red1734d ago

"The question is would the return on investment be worthwhile?"

Sony could definitely make some extra profit selling PS3 games through their marketplace (the same way they have their other classics available). It's not about whether or not it will effect anyone's purchase decision, it definitely didn't do so for the PS4. But as others have expressed, it would be a nice addition to have for PS5 if Sony could open up their whole library digitally and physically to users.

ShadowWolf7121734d ago

Racing games should be some of the easiest to emulate and they're still not hitting 60fps with it, to say nothing of image flickering and occasional sound issues.

Still gonna be a bit yet before they have it fully up and running, it seems, and even then it may only work for part of the library. :/

1734d ago Replies(2)
Gwiz1734d ago

Is it possible to have PS3 emulation on PS5?yes depending on what kind of power it really has.
An i7 9700k is no slouch and the PS4 already has a God of War 3 running much better with less
power required because they converted CBE to X86 which is not something you want to be doing in the long run.

What power would be required to play these games emulated at said PS4 version?.
It's not an easy situation Sony themselves created and ultimately I believe they are happy this way because they
want you to use PSNow,that service is why you will not even get it. (let's not forget that it was a huge investment)

1734d ago Replies(1)
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