Jaffe: Metal Gear Solid Story "Ham Fisted"

The twisted storyline of Metal Gear Solid might be beloved of many gamers, but not so much for outspoken God of War creator, David Jaffe. While he has professed his love for the series, he called the story "ham-fisted", going on to call the plot of Gears of War 2 (which he calls his game of 2008) a rip-off of Aliens.

Speaking in an LAGTV interview about why video game movies are generally pretty turd, Jaffe said, "Metal Gear's one of my favourite series of all time, but if you really just strip the gameplay and the graphics out of Metal Gear and you just look at it as a story, it's a really ham-fisted, kind of cheesy story.

[butbutbuttehcell]

Jaffe when was the last great game you did? 4 years ago? So your input is kinda moot. Have you even made several good games? No? Just the one?! So for the last four years you've done nothing great so what makes you think you have the right to criticize other games? You're opinion is about a valuable as your face is handsome.

[Pennywise]

Well said. Beginning of this gen, Jaffe talking sparked excitement... but this far into the game, I think its getting old.

Make a game and shut up... and lose the hat, Gilligan.

[TheHater]

I am guessing you didn't watching the video base on your idiotic reaction. Watch the video, and you will notice how this "article" spin the things he said out of context.

[MasFlowKiller]

but most story in games are really really dumb down, its like there trying to feed it to us with a spoon, or its non existence

I know the Metal Gear Games are hard to follow, but if u played every game then it pays off, it actually feel rewording, plus super fun gameplay doesnt hurt the experience

[TheTwelve]

The MGS storyline is like Code Geass...really good, but you have to swallow some things which are rather hard to believe.

12

[LiquifiedArt]

This is exactly what is wrong with the internet. Your taking what he said out of context.

He was talking about how IN COMPARISON to a movie, once you strip modern day games of their gameplay they are all very derivative from existing movie plots.

[Muggles]

Not much from him either since Earthworm Jim almost 20 years ago and he still blesses us with his opinions all the time.

[LeonSKennedy4Life]

He has made 5 really good games...

- Twisted Metal
- Twisted Metal 2
- God of War
- War of the Monsters
- Calling All Cars!

Noob.

[SevWolf]

You beat me to that post, I was just about to write it. I enjoy Jaffe's blog he actually has very interesting point, and like liquified said you have to watch the whole thing, I partially disagree the MGS story is amazing to me, but its the man's opinion and he's entitled to it, its just st*pid as* morons who take his words and turn them to headlines and lies, actually if you watched the videos he talks about how many journalist like kotaku have done that to him and many others

[-PINNER-]

don't forget twisted metal black

[xabmol]

I didn't know that. WotM was an awesome game. He also made Mickey Mania on the SNES, another awesome game. But why does this guy talk so much?

[Sharpshell]

Jaffe does a great job creating a game series concept,but doesn't make what will eventualy be the amsterpeice of the series, I am specifically thinking of Twisted Metal Black... heres hoping that God of War 3 will pull off the same thing

[Megaton]

Jaffe's words being spun into oblivion again. Good job internet, keep up the ace journalism.

[xionpunk]

Well c'mon, he's got a point. I'm a HUGE Metal Gear fan and I love the story but it has some extremely cheesy elements. I love those elements in the context of Metal Gear and the world Kojima created. Do I want them in movie form ? No way. The story needs to be scaled back and more focused if it is to be a good movie. But as a game story I wouldn't change a thing.

[jadenkorri]

don't mentioned metal gear movie...uwe boll might get an idea...

[JoySticksFTW]

He actually says Good Guess!

Heck Yeah! :D

EDIT:

uuhh, erm, uh... did anyone happen to watch the interview all the way through? And see the last few minutes of the third section?

Uncomfortable.... D8

Now I like GoW and TM as much as the next guy, but Dave got his panties in a bunch those last few minutes. jeez...

[sinncross]

I personally don't like the direction the story of MGS took with 4.

It went from logical/ supernatural to just being logical. Everything had to have an explanation for no reason, and most of the time is was a stupid revelation.
Especially the thing with Vamp... the truth behind him still doesn't help explain all the things he did in MGS2.

I also thought the story was rushed... had a lot of high moments though.

I still find MGS and MGS2 to be the best in the series.

[callahan09]

Are you forgetting that Metal Gear Solid 2 was actually the game that took it to the extremes of logic? Everything was logical & scientific, even what seemed at first to be supernatural. It was a big speech at the end where Ocelot was talking about Fortune's inability to die and what that meant, and how it was all just this scientific, natural thing, and it actually had nothing at all to do with her being supernaturally "forunate." The only supernatural loose ends left at the end of MGS2 were Vamp's nature and Liquid's arm taking over Ocelot: both of which were explained in the story of MGS4, tying together the plot threads that started in Sons of Liberty with everything being explainable, nothing supernatural. That's part of the brilliance of the fourth game, in my opinion, is that it takes the themes of the series and explains them, leaving no stone unturned while being faithful to everything that came before it. It was the ultimate conclusion with the perfect dose of fan service.

[JoySticksFTW]

The Sorrow
The Pain
Ultra old The End
Volgin's lightning

I don't remember any logical explanation for them. Anyone?

I don't know if you played MGS3, but you owe it to yourself as a MGS fan. You just might have a new favorite ;P

[Tiberium]

Mgs3 had the best story in my opinion. mgs2 was so insanely melodramatic. And otacon was the biggest crybaby of them all. And wtf was up with raiden running around naked.

[cayal]

umm...his clothes were stolen?

[DavidMacDougall]

He says..

"If you remove all the action and just leave the story from all the games its hamfisted and cheesy"

...which can be said for any game

LMFAO at the end he just goes for that idiot

[Fishy Fingers]

There's a whole lot more to this interview than the small piece the contributor choose to use as the headline.

Watch it. I found it to be a good interview, regarding the MGS business, each to their own.

[Nineball2112]

With all due respect Fishy, I just didn't feel like the title "My LAGTV.COM interview..." was all that great.

I saw the article at Spong.com (the via link) and that was their title, so I decided to go with that one. Maybe I shouldn't have... but it's a better title then "My interview", imo.

And I actually really like the MGS storyline/series. Yeah, it's a bit "out there", but that's what video games are for. To tell us "fantastical" stories and to make us suspend belief for a while.

[Fishy Fingers]

I'm not suggesting there is something underhand about the headline, and like you said, the source title doesnt really give you much to go on. It was a good angle to take on your part. I'm just saying this is a 30 minute interview and we'll get 100 comments focused on 20 seconds of it. When there is a lot of interesting stuff in there.

[Nineball2112]

I agree with you 100% Fishy. Most attention spans are very short, which is a shame.

+ bubbles for the comments.

[no-spin]

i saw the 3 videos, and of all the things he said you choose that headline?
You are an example of the problem with journalism, totally misleading title. trying to imitate the HHG?

[Nineball2112]

Right, because I'm a journalist. And by submitting stories on N4G, I contribute to "journalism" and journalistic integrity. /sarc

C'mon, lighten up, Francis. The title is focusing on one aspect of the videos, but it's not the end of the world.

[BGDad]

I can maybe understand if you were fishing or even outside but I think you have gone to far.

As far as stories in games in general they are all horrible. They suck, if you took away the action from any game and just left the story Im not sure even kids would sit through it.

I skipped the cut scenes, and just played the game and loved it. But then again I do that in most games. One game i did not however was god of war 1 and 2. Go figure.

[Pennywise]

Just sit right back and you'll hear a tale,
A tale of a fateful trip
That started from this tropic port
Aboard this tiny ship.

The mate was a mighty sailing man,
The skipper brave and sure.
Five passengers set sail that day
For a three hour tour, a three hour tour.

The weather started getting rough,
The tiny ship was tossed,
If not for the courage of the fearless crew
The minnow would be lost, the minnow would be lost.

The ship set ground on the shore of this uncharted desert isle
With Gilligan
The Skipper too,
The millionaire and his wife,
The movie star
The professor and Mary Ann,
Here on Gilligans Isle.

So this is the talel of the castways,
They're here for a long, long time,
They'll have to make the best of things,
It's an uphill climb.

The first mate and the Skipper too,
Will do their very best,
To make the others comfortable,
In the tropic island nest.

No phone, no lights no motor cars,
Not a single luxury,
Like Robinson Crusoe,
As primative as can be.

So join us here each week my freinds,
You're sure to get a smile,
From seven stranded castways,
Here on "Gilligan's Isle."

[caffman]

for shame

[Statix]

People shouldn't be kneejerk-reacting to Jaffe's comments and turning on him on a dime, just because he has an opinion that could remotely be taken as negative towards a game from a Playstation franchise. After all, he brought us a couple of the greatest games to ever arrive for the Playstation brand, so he has some credibility. The man's definitely entitled to his own opinion.

[Blink_44]

Jaffe is pretty annoying.

[LeonSKennedy4Life]

He's a normal human being...just like you and me. He just has a lot more talent than us.

:)

[Blink_44]

I wouldnt call him normal

[edgeofblade]

Ham-fisted? Convoluted, over-dramatic, impossibly-contrived, self-referential... and now ham-fisted? Someone woke up on the wrong side of the pile of cash this morning.

[I love video games]

crazy, i think the story is great, it would be good for a movie, book, comic, and in my opinion the best story in video games

[rbanke]

This is what he pointed out EXACTLY. The so-called 'game journalists' take something people say completly out of context and/or totally ignore certain aspects of what was said just to come up with something sensational.

He said he LOVES the entire MGS world and snake's story perhaps more than any other video game character's, and that even one of the great stories of video games would come across cheesy if the same storyline was used in a movie. He was simply explaining that he doesnt think game story's as a whole (mostly) are up to par with movie stories.

And as much as I love MGS you can't honestly look at it and say this is a serious story (there are some 'hidden messages' in the story but thats not what we are talking about). It's fun and cheesy (as are most games stories), that doesnt mean bad.

[Socomer 1979]

mgs4 is political.
it has its own mythology.
I guess it competes with Greek gods mythology because mgs has its own database which is like a encyclopedia of mgs.
the only beef is david Jaffe didnt make up Greek mythology & Kojima actually created his story from scratch.
in fighting? Gotta love the rise to the top.

[i_like_ff7]

Lol people getting made at Jaffe. Watch the whole interview. Jesus christ....

[Unicron]

Please watch the vid and understand the context of what he is saying. Don't listen to the poorly written N4G summary.

And this is coming from a HUGE MGS fan.

[Socomer 1979]

I forget that journalist like to try and twist around the words spoken especially out of jaffes mouth.
I should have known better.
Sorry jaffe!

[sinncross]

MGS2 was the perfect synthesis of logic and the supernatural.
Liquid taking over Ocelot's arm, Vamp and even Fortune at the very end made for intriguing set pieces to be utilized.

All three accumulate to nothing.

Liquid being in control of Ocelot was the perfect combination of nanomachines with genetics, 2 major themes prevailing in the MGS series. The explanation they finally give was stupid and pointless and actually served to make the Patriots less of a threat. You're telling me they have no idea what one of their own operatives were up to?

And Vamp was just the easy way out. The explanation in MGS4 doesn't aid in how Vamp could run along water, up walls and swim in de-oxygenated water. It also ruins some of the symbolism revolving Vamp in MGS2.

I'm not saying that there is anything wrong in you liking the explanations given in MGS4, but i honestly feel that Kojima one of the best developers in gaming today, has dumbed down himself to mere commercialism. MGS4 lacks the suspense of MGS, the intelligence of MGS2: it's just far too simple, far too aimed at the mass audience instead of his audience.

MGS4 is an awesome game, don't get me wrong, but it pales in comparison to Kojima's older work imo.

[Unicron]

SPOILERS

You realize Liquid is still basically nanos right? Ocelot used nanotherapy, hypnotherapy, and drugs to literally create the mind of Liquid in his own head. On an information/digital level, Ocelot became everything Liquid was.

Also, this was explained in MGS4... Zero decided to pass control on to the AI that you spoke with at the end of MGS2 instead of another group of people. Ocelot used the design of the AI against itself. The AI runs on predictable patterns. By making Liquid the "threat" again, he was able to push the AI into a response he could control, thus using Snake as a tool against them. The Patriots had become a system once Zero became too old, and any human control had long since vanished. (Check out Sky Captain, same thing happened with Totemkopf, pretty awesome).

This is also very cleverly a play on the MGS series conventions and the conventions of gaming sequels themselves. Kojima took recurring elements of the series (Snake being a tool, getting a support team) and actually turned it into a plot device. I think that's pretty awesome and rather subtle, since most people don't even notice it.

[Spydiggity]

I must throw a tantrum because this guy expressed an opinion that conflicts with my own!!!

[iHEARTboobs]

Jaffe,

I'm waiting on Twisted Metal!

[nothere413]

He's gotten a big head because of all of his famous games and now all he does is sit around criticizing all the other games out there. MGS2 > all of Jaffe's games and he knows it.

[TheRealSpy]

did you actually watch the interview?

The title of this article takes what he said completely out of context.

[Kurylo3d]

actually 4 did explain that vamp stuff. If u notice the female troopers u fight in 4 can cling to walls with those boots they wear. if u notice in 4 vamp wheres those same boots... him running up walls and on water... well theres your explanation.

I mean get over it kojima turned away from supernatual cause supernatural isnt REAL. You may want to beleive it is, but no theres no such thing as vampires. It leaves some room for unexplainable supernatural stuff, but it keeps that stuff in its own realm. Thats the stuff that doesnt matter. The stuff he left in is stuff that can be explained technologically and has been researched. Even ghosts have been researched and have some technological bearing in their existance. Even telepathy can have a hand in science. But no ... not vampires... and no ... not lady luck. That was technology

[Mad_Rhetoric]

the irony of this fat POS

[Kurylo3d]

Hey he may have not made greek mythology, but he made it his own. Some of the greatest stories of all time come from greek mythology and the bible. The most hard core of heros and villains , and struggles, are in them. The man did his thing with god of war and i applaud him for it.

[YogiBear]

Every story ever told is ripped off from greeks. They invented theater tough guy.

By the way, Jack Nicholson was better.

[Jdoki]

Agree.

As much as I love the MGS games (except Sons of Liberty), the story has always been interesting but clunky to put it mildly.

[JuJuRMJ]

I respect what the man has to say, he's a man who enjoys games not to mention created some truly classics and I cannot wait what to see and play any new titles that jaffe is working on.

[koehler83]

The irony of this post is staggering.

[Figboy]

what's so wrong about that title?

or have those that have played MGS4 forgotten this classic line:

Snake (to Raiden): You were the Lighting in that rain.

i absolutely LOVE Metal Gear Solid, and each of it's sequels (and spinoffs, including the ridiculous Acid series), but to try and pretend that the game isn't often cheesy and hammy at times is simply being overly sensitive.

even Star Wars (classic trilogy), have their moments where you groan inwardly.

MGS4 has more than most stories, simply because of it's length. each MGS game is chock full of story and character stories, and each game has moments that make you face palm.

it doesn't take from the brilliance of the game of all.

to me, the MGS series is an extremely well done amalgamation of Japanese culture and American cinema stylings.

it's the action/espionage movie genre as portrayed through the eyes of Japanese culture.

being a fan of both the spy/espionage genre, and Japanese culture, i appreciate the MGS series more eccentric moments.

Jaffe has a big mouth. no more bigger than Cliffy B (but far LESS annoying in my opinion), but i enjoy hearing him speak his mind about gaming unfiltered. how is it any different than us doing the same here on N4G and elsewhere?

that's the problem with "celebrity" culture these days. we think these guys are above human. that they aren't just regular folks who eat, sleep, sh*t and f*ck like the rest of us, who also just happen to have a really cool job.

they aren't "special." they aren't "superior" to us, they simply have a kickass job that we admire.

i've worked in the gaming industry for a few years, and i've spent plenty of time with some insanely talented developers, and got to have chats with people like Will Wright, Alex Evans, and Ted Price, and they are simply down to earth, cool guys who love gaming, and decided to make a career out of it.

i don't hold Jaffe to a higher standard because he's a game designer.

hell, he put a sex minigame in his greek god opus, how COULD I?

Jaffe is a talented game designer. Mickey Mania, Twisted Metal, God of War, and War of the Monsters are some of the best games of their generation, and he deserves at least SOME respect for that.

to expect him to do and say things that are "politically correct" on his own personal blog is as foolish as expecting US to do the same when commenting on our MySpace pages, or web sites.

let the man say whatever the f*ck he wants and get off his nutsack already.

not even Cliffy B and other loud mouths get as much flack as Jaffe. i respect his candid, and honest views on gaming, even though he's a foul mouthed pirate.

[YogiBear]

Bubbles

[talltony]

look at the way he gets mad at the host....lmao!

[v1c1ous]

I'm one of the biggest MGS series buffs around. i played that pizza hut MGS1 demo in '99 more than i played full games!

but even i admit that Kojima and his team must have been smoking some heavy duty stuff to come up with half the crap that went on in MGS.

i love the quirkyness of many things while still being serious about it, but even i was left scratching my head in some parts through all iterations...

[cj1pate101]

I was thinking the same thing! What drug did they do when they said... snake well hes so bad a** he can walk through a microwave. Or Raiden he can jump 20 feet high and take out 40 mechs no problem? OR even.. where gonna bring big boss back from the dead after being charred to death by a make shift flame thrower?

[thegood33]

I think you are all mad becuase he admitted loving the 'other' GOW game... )

[beavis4play]

haven't you read his comments about women? politics?, journalism?

dave jaffe is an idiot. every time he opens his mouth he says something stupid. i've said it before but it bears repeating:
dave, direct your attention to the secret ps3 game you're working on and quit talking! we want info on the GAME you're working on......not about all this other stuff you rant on about.

[YogiBear]

^^^^^^^^^^
This coming from someone with a Beavis avatar! LOL

[el_rika]

Cheesy ? Ham-fisted ? Undeniably brilliant ? Unique ?

Yes, Startship Troopers is like that, Slumdog Millionaire is like that, Firefly is like that, Farscape is like that and yes, MGS games are like that.
It is about delivering unique experiences and it is ultimatelly non-quantifiable. It is not "this" or "that" which make them great, it is the sum of their parts, it is the auteur's vision.
There are people that scratch their heads because they simply do not "get it", but hell, their loss, not mine.

[Silly gameAr]

Just asking.

[cj1pate101]

High on something and ran out of ideas?

[ikral]

Just started game for 2nd time and this time i can see that story is relly good. Just need to dive in it. When played MGS1 wasnt expecting much so i was surprised with great game. With MGS4 everyone knew it must be great, so it maybe left few dudes disapointed. I played MGS 4 times, MGS2 3 times, MGS3 2 times. All great games.

[SacT0wnF1n3st]

I discovered his blog a couple weeks ago and I must say I really like it. The way Jaffe owned that kid interviewer is quality. Looking forward to play whatever he's working on.

[dagreatest41]

Jaffe is not the one at fault here. Its the title of the article that should be criticized for being misleading. If you watch the whole video, the quote is taken completely out of context.

The article may have just as easily been titled

"Jaffe: GEARS OF WAR's story is "total rip-off of aliens"

[Silly gameAr]

Oh my god there isn't one! See how dumb that sounds?

New intro please.

[Silly gameAr]

Dude doing the interviews? D-bag.

[cj1pate101]

The point is he has a right to his opinion! I own a ps3 and can honestly say wth is with the story? Mgs has always had supernatural and crazy sh** but... Wtf is with raiden spinning on his back taking out 18 mechs? The game has always had some realistic technology that could happen. Not some super human suit that makes him a break dancing anima character. Wtf is with the stupid love story between maryl and johnny? That had to be some of the dumbest stuff i have ever seen/heard. Wtf is with snake walking through a microwave? He is a clone not a super human! Now on to graphics and gameplay... What with the stiff animations and for god sakes it looks like mgs 3 on ps3? I mean come on have different animations for each character and more realistic running animations? The game just looks plain awful nothing special nothing revolutionary? NExt time if ur gonna go for more american controls try doing something more logical? Yes its a stealth game but why have the ability to gun through it if its plain awful! Why do load scenes have to happen every time u replay the game? Why aren't levels more open ended and less load scenes? COme on how do u f this up so bad? Dont even get me started on not understanding the story! I loved parts of it but others where crack head stupid!

[RumbleFish]

LOL!

[swinesucker]

MGS is ham fisted no doubt. Anyone arguing otherwise does not have any taste.

Does that make it a bad game? NO!

But seriously, there are enough "acting" moments for me to say its not even remotely close to something like The Constant Gardener or some other great movie with a lot of twists.

NOT even close. The whole Vamp Liquid thing just got really really ham fisted if that is the word you want to use.